Buffing wood

[Mike Cruz]

Can anyone (I'm sure ALL of you can...) please explain the technique and ins and outs of buffing wood. I've done a little research on buffing wheels etc, and I'm getting a little confused, okay, a lot confused, about the different types of buffing wheels (cotton-sewn, cotton-not sewn, ones that have cotton folded and radiating out--see Grizzly). Also, what is up with the compounds? They are different colors, which I assume means they have different uses, but do the colors transfer over to the wood?

I also suppose that I should get as many (or more) buffing wheels as the different kinds of compound I get...I would imagine you don't want to double dip so to speak.

Are there any specific ones (either wheels or compounds) to stay away from?

Thanks all for your infinite wisdom.

[David E Keller]

I don't know enough here to be useful(happens to me a lot). I am looking forward to the responses.

I do know that buffing walnut with white diamond can be a nightmare!:eek:

[Jack Savona]

Mike, I have been using the Beall Buffing system for the past five years. Love it! I use Tripoli and White Diamond. Since I buff both before as well as after finishing, my first wheels wore down to small-bowl buffs. So I bought some other cheaper replacement buffers, but was disappointed in either their narrowness or their aggressiveness. Eventually I bought Beall replacements. BTW, I no longer use the third wheel for carnuba wax. I found when bowls were handled a lot their wax finish seemed to lose it's luster, so I cleaned the carnuba wheel and now use it to buff Renaissance wax.

May I suggest going to the WoodCentral website and going to Russ's Corner and see what Russ Fairfield has to say about buffing and the compounds. Also try Woodcraft's website. They should still have a video on using the Beall system. I'd give you the hot links, but I think doing that's still a taboo here.

And no double dipping.

[Mike Cruz]

Thanks, Jack. I'll give them a look-see. I have to admit that much of what you are talking about (three steps? :confused:), I am lost with. That info would be much appreciated. Like, what do most folks here do. I know it is as diverse as with sanding. Ask the question of what grits in what order, and you'll get 15 different answers. But, I'd still like to hear what people do with what woods. I would imagine that different woods take different steps...maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's the same for everything.

The other reason that I am asking this question here, and not going to Woodcraft, etc, is that I like getting answers from those who have no vested interest in the answer, other than to share how they do it, and what you want to avoid (out of the goodness of their hearts), not because they are a store, or affiliated with one, and their recommendations are a direct influence on their sales. For example, when I asked about what I need for my new-to-me lathe, I got the down and dirty ,"What you need is X, but you may want some Y. And don't let people talk you into Z". When a store says you need X, I feel like it is Z, and that is just what they want to sell me. Unfortunately, I don't have a relationship with any Woodcrafts (I have one 1 hour from me, and another about 1 1/2 hours from me). I do plan to go there for an introductory class or two (or whatever is recommended). But at this point, if the guy says, "You need 5 buffing pads and 5 compounds, because you really need it for all the differnt types of wood and stages of buffing...", I wouldn't believe him. If one person here said it, and I got a bunch of "ditto"s, well, then there is merit to it.

Again, I'll check out the websites you mentioned, and again, thanks.

[John Keeton]

Mike, I just today got in my order from CSUSA (Craft Supplies USA) with the following:
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Finishing___Buffing___Wood_Buffing_System___wood_b uff_sys?Args=

http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Finishing___Buffing___Beall_Morse_Taper_Buff_Adapt er___mt_buff_adapter?Args=

This kit comes with the Tripoli, the White Diamond, and some Carnauba wax. Though I think the suggestion to not put the Canauba on the wheel, and instead get some Rennaisance Wax is probably a good one. That will be the next purchase.

From everything I have read here on SMC, and from other sources, this seems to be the standard. I know Leo and some of the others also use bowl buffs with the same compounds to access the inside of bowls.
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Finishing___Buffing___3__Bowl_Buff___bowl_buff_3?A rgs=

Hope this helps! I have never buffed any of my turnings - but, I am ready now!!:D;)

[Gary Herrmann]

Haven't buffed any bowls yet, but I have done smaller items. The brand I bought is now carried by Don Pencil on his site. 3 different compounds - tripoli, white diamond and carnuba.

I'm thinking of picking up some bowl buffs because the finish you get after buffing just gleams. I keep meaning to try it on pens and just haven't gotten around to it, but then again, it is springtime, so shoptime is pretty scarce.

I will say that you want to buff a bottle stopper before you mount it on the metal cone to avoid having it rattle around in the joists above you. DAMHIKT.

[Steve Schlumpf]

To overly simplify things - think of Tripoli as your course sandpaper, the White Diamond as your medium sandpaper and the wax as your super-fine! I have changed from using Carnuba over to using Renaissance Wax - because it doesn't show fingerprints or water spots.

Also - never use White Diamond on any open grain woods as the white will fill in all the pores and destroy the look you are going for!

[Mark Levitski]

Wow, right on re: the Renaissance vs. the carnuba (so I'm not alone in this). Beall buffs are great and yet the carnuba is not the best for most of our turning applications IMHO. I also buff before and after most finishes.

P.S.--Don't wax utility bowls that will be exposed to water.

[Don Meyer]

I was just wondering is the Ren wax safe for food contact since it is a petroleum product? I know that the carnuba wax is.

[Harvey Ghesser]

Can a wipe on poly finish be buffed as well?

What if the bowl is open grained but sealed with the wipe on poly finish? Is it still o.k to use the white diamond? Thank you!

[Curt Fuller]

Mike, regardless of the type of buffing system or wax you choose, watch this video. http://www.woodturnerruss.com/Wax/Wax-6-Buffing-b.html

When I first started buffing I wasn't real impressed with the results. But after watching the video I realized I was overdoing it with the wax.

[Gary Herrmann]

Harvey, yes you can buff items with poly finishes.

[Wally Dickerman]

I suggest that you go with the Beall system wheels. They are designed for their specific uses.

I'll caution you on using too much of any of the compounds. Some turners end up with lumps of Tripoli on the piece and wonder why.

I seldom use the wax..any wax. Wax is only a temporary finish to shine a piece up, usually before it's sold. My method on most pieces is to apply one coat of an oil finish, then use Tripoli and Wh. Dia. After a few days, I procede to apply more coats of the finishing oil. This has worked for me for some time now. Many turners look at a finished piece with satisfaction. But what is the finish going to look like a year from now or 5 years from now?

I do use the Beall system to restore pieces that were turned years ago and the finish has turned dull. When I do that I usually apply the wax.

If you do use the wax, apply it very sparingly to the buffing wheel. If you can see wax on the wheel you've applied too much.

Wally

[Edward Bartimmo]

I bought a Beall system a little while back. It is relatively inexpensive ($60) and I thought why not... I spent enough time compulsively sanding to 1200, but as soon as a finish was added it automatically offset some of my sanding. If you sand with sandpaper 800 or finer then don't bother using the Tripoli and go straight to White Diamond. It bearly uses any of the compounds to buff. After using the standard set (buffing wheels) I decided to buy the bowl buffing set (round polishing balls). What I have observed is that they do a decent job, but not as nice as the buffing wheels. From what I can tell it has to do with amount of friction and speed that point of contact the polishing ball has inside a bowl versus the polishing wheel on the outside. More of the ball makes contact with the inside of the bowl then the wheel does on the outside of a surface. I bump up the lathe speed to offset this as well as use a much lighter contact when polishing the inside of the bowl.


The system is simple and for an extra couple of minutes of effort makes any piece look amazing. On a normal piece that I want a quick simple finish I wipe on a couple of thinned lacquer (50% diluted with LT). Let it dry and then buff it.

[Scott Hackler]

I have the Beal 3 wheel setup and I wish I would have bought the single wheel kit. The wheels are too close together for those bibber than life bowls I love to make and I cant really buff the inside of any of my turnings unless they are really shallow. Just some advise on which system to get.

Other than that, it is a fantastic thing to see how freaking smooth your finish will become afterwards.

[Thomas Canfield]

I bought the Don Pencil system after having the Beal 3 on one shaft system (worked good for pens and very small objects, but not bowls). The 8" shaft that fits on the headstock gets the wheel out to point you can do the exterior of most bowls and other objects, and with the bowl buffs you can get in about 10" on a hollow form. Don now has a 12" shaft that I just bought and plan to use on some large hollow forms and bowls. I actually have the 8" in 1 1/4" and 1" thread and use the wheels on my Powermatic and bowl buffs on my Jet Mini to eliminate changing and being able to buff inside and outside faster. I bought a new wheel for tripoli but have not used it yet and it is wider and looks like it will speed up buffing. I have used the white diamond only on a limited basis due to it leaving white spots on some woods/finish. I buff with tripoli usually before applying oil, between every coat, and light buffing after final coat before application of Renaisance wax that is buffed with waxs wheel.

[David Walser]

Mike,



You've received lots of good advice. Allow me to summarize and then add one more thought:

Both Beal and Don Pencil make good systems. I think they are similar in quality.
The three-wheels-on-a-shaft design is convenient for small items like pens and small boxes. This design is a royal pain for use with larger items -- like even relatively small bowls.
Many turners prefer using Renaissance wax over carnuba wax with the final wheel. Renaissance wax resists water spotting and does not show fingerprints. Note: One expert, Russ Fairfield, suggests carnuba wax can be just as resistant to water spotting as is Renaissance wax if the caruba wax is buffed thin enough. He suggests using a stiff brush (like a shoe brush) to do this. You were given a link to his wax discussion, above.
The additional thought: There are options besides the standard three wheels. Just over a year ago, Don Pencil introduced a lacquer/plastic buffing compound and wheel. (Some of the other vendors have recently brought out something similar.) Several of us on the Creek have tried the lacquer/plastic buffing compound and have been impressed by it. For film finishes like lacquer and polyurathance, or for plastics such as acrylic pen blanks, this new compound does a great job. Don Pencil's stuff can be found, here: http://donpencil.com/

[Mike Cruz]

Wow, this is fantastic. Just what I was looking for! Thanks a million, guys, and don't hesitate to keep 'em coming...

One question I have about buffing on finishes... I have seen, in this thread, that you can buff poly, laquer, and oil finishes. Do you buff before, after, or both when using finishes other than wax? So, in other words, do you sand, apply finish, then buff? Or can/do you buff (as a way to sand/smooth the project), then apply finish? I am concerned/curious as to how well finishes (poly/laquer? will hold after using tripoli and white diamond compounds.

Thanks for your advice. This is amazingly helpful.

[Mike Cruz]

Thanks, David. You may have just answered my question above. So, for buffing polly and laquer, you want to use the compounds made for plastics? Which brand/color do you use? I was at a store and they had probably 6 or 8 kinds of compound that were for metal/plastic?

[David Walser]

Thanks, David. You may have just answered my question above. So, for buffing polly and laquer, you want to use the compounds made for plastics? Which brand/color do you use? I was at a store and they had probably 6 or 8 kinds of compound that were for metal/plastic?

Mike,

You don't need to use anything but the standard Tripoli/white diamond compounds for poly and lacquer finishes. However, the compounds made for plastics have a finer grit than white diamond and will produce a higher gloss. I use the compound from Don Pencil and like it fine. I've not tried the others. I know several turners that use a liquid plastic/paint polish from the auto parts store (several different brands). It works well.

Good luck!

[Mike Minto]

I get compound and wheels from http://www.caswellplating.com/. Good prices and a good selection.

[Edward Bartimmo]

Great information! Beall and Don Pencil are interchangeable. I concur about getting the shaft extenion for use with either the polishing wheels or buff balls.

Looks like there are some accessory items that I might need from Don. Now just need to find where to store them.

[Tim Rinehart]

If you have some patience to use whatever you decide on ahead of a prized piece...try it out on a small test piece with a decent sanded and even sealed piece. Be sure it has some defineable 'edges' too. You need to get a feel for what happens when you let the wheel overtake an edge...and get ripped from your hands.
The option...is don't ever let it happen...but I'm glad I know what to expect. I don't know about the Don Pencil design, but the Beall recommends spinning at 1200 RPM or so, which provides pretty good torque even for a cloth wheel.

I say this with all seriousness intended, and wear a faceshield as well, if nothing more than to protect yourself from alot of 'early' fiber release you'll get, even after dressing the wheels with sandpaper.

I got lucky with a nice piece that got ripped from my hands when I let an edge get caught by the wheel...the piece wasn't destroyed...and I wasn't hurt.

As to finishes, I think most posters and responders will have more experience than I do, but I've had pretty good success with sealing my piece prior to finishing using shellac based sealers, Mylands, etc. I've done the poly route and then finished also...again, quite nice. Experiment a bit, finishing has so many facets to it...I'll be learning this side of the craft for years to come as well.

Good luck and have fun. Oh, one last thing I found...the tripoli helps get out some of very finest sanding lines that you may not have otherwise been able to get out yet, either because of grits you have, the wood, or your methods. I like to buff in an opposition direction to how I turned also...again to blend out sanding lines.

Now I've got to go get and try the Renaissance Wax...geez...learning is expensive...something else I have to try.

[Jon Finch]

So how does one "unload" an already used wax wheel loaded with carnuba so it can be used for Renissance Wax? And I'm assuming that you wipe the Ren wax onto the piece with a soft cloth, let glaze then buff off? Or do you somehow load the buffing wheel with Ren wax and buff like it was carnuba?

[David Foshee]

i buff most of my turnings including bowls. I have a Don Pencil buffing system it is almost the same as the Beall. You can find him by doing a google search. However he offers a plastic or acylic buffing compond that I use to buff after i apply a finish such as Poly or lacquer. It works well. also ditto on the three wheel system i went with the single wheel arbor due to the closesness of the wheels.

[Thom Sturgill]

Good advice so far. I use both the Beall system and Don Pencil's PL compound and wheel for lacquered items. I use his spindle adapter and buff right on the lathe. I used to use the Beall adapter on a grinder, but I find that the slower speed works better and I now use that space on the grinder for honing. The wheels all use the same size bolt and interchange on the adapter. Don't use sewn wheels as they tend to be too hard. They are designed for metal buffing.

MAKE SURE THAT LACQUER IS CURED BEFORE BUFFING. I needs at least a week, more is better, same for poly. If not completely cured, the heat will pull it right off the item. On the other hand, friction cured oil finishes can go right to the buffer.

[David Walser]

So how does one "unload" an already used wax wheel loaded with carnuba so it can be used for Renissance Wax? And I'm assuming that you wipe the Ren wax onto the piece with a soft cloth, let glaze then buff off? Or do you somehow load the buffing wheel with Ren wax and buff like it was carnuba?

Use a "sharp board" to clean the wheel. By a sharp board, I mean onethat's recently been ripped on the table saw or that has an edge that was run through the joiner. Hold the sharp 90 degree corner of one edge of the board against the wheel as it is turning at speed.

Hope this helps.

[Mark Levitski]

OK, I'll chime in some more about buffing:

Good advice about cleaning wheels, but if you're merely changing from carnuba to Ren., just leave it and start loading w/ the Ren. The carnuba will soon wear off to nil. For a brief time you will have a combo wax.

Ren. food safe? Not sure. Mineral oil is food safe, as is Vaseline. Doesn't matter to me. Don't use wax on utility bowls. Same reason not to leave water on waxed furniture. I turned a nice large cherry bowl for ourselves. Used it for our fruit like bananas and apples, pears, etc. I left it w/ a carnuba polish. Not too long before I needed to return it to the lathe on the vacuum chuck to refinish. The wax had left the typical watermarks from just having fruit in it. Since the oil-only finish it has performed just fine.

We go from 400 or 600 grit sanding to Tripoli, then skip the diamond if it is a wood that would show the white too much. Unless it is a finish w/ resins such as lacquer or Danish oil, I buff w/ the compounds after sanding then finish w/ oil, then after curing buff w/ wax unless it's a utility piece. All of my non-utility pieces are "in-the-wood" finishes. We have found that the plastic look doesn't sell that well. And we do not like it.

Efficacy w/ bowl buffs is, I think, related to RPM versus diameter. We have several buffing machines (don't use the lathe for this) for our buffing. One Casewell @ 1100RPM, one Jet @ 1725, and one Grizzly @ 3450. The Griz is used for the smaller diameter bowl buffs (smaller diameter rotates slower at the contact surface than larger diameter on the same shaft). Caswell site has some good info about this and other stuff.

Happy buffing!

Mark

[Mike Cruz]

Well, thank you, thank you, thank you, everyone. I am going to print this out, along with the links that have been so graciously posted. I'll read it, reread it, and highlight all the info that seems the most pertinant to my situation. Then, it'll go in a drawer in the lathe. Technically, I'll be using a buffer 10 feet away, but I'll know where it is. ;)

Another thing I think I'll do, which I believe at least one person suggested, is do a little practicing on scraps. That'll give me a feel for buffing before I go and screw up my first turning. :o

Oh, more opinions will always be welcome, and I can reprint...and likely will anyway...so feel free to add if you haven't already. I'm certainly not trying to close the thread.

[Jon Finch]

Thanks for the replies on the wheel. Regarding the application of the Ren wax... do you load the wheel with wax then buff your piece or do you wipe the wax on the piece then buff it off? I'm guessing the latter, but...

[Alan Huey]

But I prefer the single ball for bowls, changing the ball between compounds.
On open grain, seal with either Mylands Cellulose Sealer, a good sanding sealer, or several coats of Poly. Use diluted Poly (50-50 Poly-Min Spirits) and you will have faster drying and no streaks or runs, but need more coats. The better you build a base of finish, the better the final results will be.
But agree with the others, with open grain, don't proceed without sealing the grain somehow or it will be full of white.

[David Walser]

Thanks for the replies on the wheel. Regarding the application of the Ren wax... do you load the wheel with wax then buff your piece or do you wipe the wax on the piece then buff it off? I'm guessing the latter, but...

Here's my approach: Put the Ren wax on the piece, wait a few minutes, and then buff. I do this for two reasons. First, the Ren wax is soft enough to be applied to the piece. Second, I'm cheap. It takes less wax to coat the piece than it would to charge the wheel. (At least, I think it does.) I'd use the same approach with carnauba wax if it were soft enough.