Customer Service Excellence

[Mike Archambeau]

I have been reading the threads about the way Grizzly has handled customer service. The service that Grizzly is delivering is a rarity in the age we live in. Too bad the word of this excelence has not travelled outside the world of our wood working forums. Perhaps it is time for a Harvard Business Review case study. There are many busninesses that could learn from the fine example Shiraz and his firm have set. It is obvious from the things that have been written, that this service is helping to drive sales.

If I could wish for one more thing from Grizzly, it would be to manufacture in the USA. I know that this would appeal to many wood workers in the Americas. Attached is a link from David MacNeil whose sentiments about manufacturing in the USA appeal to me in a significant way: http://www.weathertech.com/UserFiles/File/amessagefromdavidmacneil.pdf (http://www.weathertech.com/UserFiles/File/amessagefromdavidmacneil.pdf)

Shiraz, I hope you will at least consider it. And I would encourage readers of this forum to hit the link and read what David MacNeil is doing with his fine company.

Shiraz and David MacNeil are exactly the kind of leaders that are building great companies and setting fine examples for the others to follow.

I grew up in the heart of car manufacturing in Southern Michigan. I can tell you that there are many fine skilled workers, engineers, and even factories, that would rise to the challenge and welcome an opportunity to build those fine Grizzly machines in the USA. The people are motivated now the the auto industry has stumbled so badly. Worth at least considering.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mike, I also would like to see more North American manufacturing.

Do you think that customers are willing to pay the premium (for sake of argument, lets say 100%) to purchase locally made equipment?

I have in the past, and continue to only purchase NA or European equipment, however the most common theme I see is lowest price on the Forum.

Regards, Rod.

P.S I would be really interested in hearing if Grizzly have made any cost comparisons between importing, versus manufacturing identical machines in North America.

[Robert Reece]

I'll respond now before this goes political and gets closed. I won't go political.

I believe a lot more people are looking closely at where their stuff comes from. That includes durable goods, food, building materials, everything. As people begin to ask questions during the purchasing process, I think you will see a fair number of companies responding by pulling things back closer to home. It might be a way that Grizzly could remain a leader in the tool making world. Start a small operation in the USA that makes a few tools and see how it goes. You could answer Rod's question pretty easily by selling two identical tablesaws, one import and one domestic. If the domestic was +25%, then you would see how many people would be willing to pay it.

My local lumber supplier has import and domestic birch ply. Domestic is about 30% more expensive and I buy it everytime.

[Joe Jensen]

I recently purchased an expensive Felder saw/shaper combo machine and I'd have to say the service I've received from several people there has been fantastic. Technical questions and I can either reach someone immediately or they call by within a few minutes. Carl Knapp has been particularly helpful as has Mark in service. This has certainly made me feel more comfortable with the major purchase I made.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Think about this guys.......

It's not political....

It's purely economics.....

It's more expensive to manufacture in North America....and nobody is free of guilt when it comes down to it.

Why would any manufacturer want to pay to ship from Asian plants if they could ship cheaper from North American plants?

Because it is cheaper to manufacture overseas and import it here. Period.

The cost of labor is cheaper....there are fewer ecological laws to abide by..... and taxes......local and federal are cheaper.


It's cheaper to produce overseas and ship it here to North America.

And.....everyone is responsible for this........the guy making $16/hour sweeping floors....with medical benefits and dental....free with little or no deductions or co-pay when he retires......etc....etc.....

The local politicans who increase taxes rather than struggle with reducing costs.....

etc.....etc....


Furthermore made in North America doesnt' necessarily insure good quality. There are numerous examples of quality issues of products made in the USA and Canada.

We are all to blame. We want more for less.....and we are selfish....we don't care how our pay raise or benefits effect the business or the products

The businesses are to blame.....it's easier to move production overseas....than to wrestle with the environmentalists here at home...and the labor....and the taxes.


Do you really think anyone would want to manufacture something overseas and transport it here if it was a cost effective to manufacture it here?


Rod.....not everybody can afford to buy the North American or European made machines.

[Rick Moyer]

Attached is a link from David MacNeil whose sentiments about manufacturing in the USA appeal to me in a significant way: http://www.weathertech.com/UserFiles/File/amessagefromdavidmacneil.pdf (http://www.weathertech.com/UserFiles/File/amessagefromdavidmacneil.pdf)




Just wanted to add that they are an excellent floor mat. No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.

[Aaron Wingert]

Grizzly, Jet, Delta and others would be shooting themselves in the foot if they all of a sudden decided to move production to the US. As consumers, most of us wouldn't tolerate the price increase that would certainly arise from it. We might say we would, but where the rubber hits the road the vast majority of us can't spend the money to fill our shops with tools at the price point of quality domestics like Powermatic. If the aforementioned companies suddenly brought their production to the states they'd instantly be priced out of the market and the consumers would not support them like a lot of idealists think they would.

Americans have created this "problem". Yet the shoot from the hip reaction is to blame the manufacturers, then we go off to work and demand high labor rates, huge benefits and other supposed entitlements because we roll out of bed and go work 8 hours a day. Then we go shopping after work and look for the lowest price. The we decide what we're getting from work isn't good enough, unionize, and strike until our demands are met. What's great about America is that we have the right to do this, and what's great about a capitalist economy is that we have to live with the consequences as consumers both good and bad.

Ever wonder what your Chevy truck would cost if all the parts were made in the USA and not just assembled in the USA? By my accounting they're expensive enough and I don't get a warm fuzzy because some relay in the wiring harness costs $50 more because it wasn't made in Mexico.

Simple economics and consumer nature has driven this. I'm not faulting anyone. I'm certainly a customer of imported brands, and am generally a happy customer of most of them.

Let's also not fool ourselves into thinking that companies like Grizzly aren't employing a heck of a lot of Americans. Between quality control people, designers, marketing, sales people, customer service people, warehouse workers, repair techs, administrative staff, and the numerous folks involved in the importing and handling of their freight....That's hundreds if not thousands of Americans. They're not drop shipping from Taiwan.

[John Shuk]

And.....everyone is responsible for this........the guy making $16/hour sweeping floors....with medical benefits and dental....free with little or no deductions or co-pay when he retires......etc....etc.....

I'm not really sure why it is a problem for a person to go to work and be willing to work each day for 30 or more years to ask for some security in exchange.
Unless of course the boss man wants ALL of the security for himself.
Seriously, is everything really the fault of the guy doing the job?
I agree that things are a mess and that it is cheaper to build stuff overseas but there is a whole host of reasons why.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod.....not everybody can afford to buy the North American or European made machines.

Hi Ken, I'm ambivalent about that statement.

Obviously I don't know the financial situation of anyone except myself, however I am willing to pay more for a North American or European product.

Like everyone else, I have to save for longer to accumulate more money to pay for more expensive goods. That doesn't mean I don't do it, it just means I have to wait longer to acquire a more expensive piece of equipment.

The issue for many of us is that we want to support our neighbours, our fellow countrymen, and failing that, a country that has the social and environmental policies we feel are important to our general welfare.

I would be very interested to see for example what a Grizzly saw would cost, made in the USA or Canada versus a Chinese machine.

Unfortunately, we have almost completely lost the choice to buy North American equipment, so it's difficult to know whether people would be willing to pay for something that doesn't exist.

I do notice that people purchase General, Felder, MiniMax, Agganzi etc, so they must feel that equipment is substantially different enough to pay for it.

It would be interesting to see if enough people would buy a made in America bandsaw at a premium price, to support a lower volume producer of machinery.

regards, Rod.

[Sean Nagle]

A new Unisaw is made in the U.S.

Go over to the neander forum. Practically anything worth owning over there is made in the U.S.

It's the big machines that are rare to find new ones made in the U.S.

Oh and by the way, this phenomenon of moving manufacturing abroad has happened really within the past 15-20 years or so. I have many U.S.-made Delta machines in my shop that cost maybe 50% more than the Asian imports at the time.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

And.....everyone is responsible for this........the guy making $16/hour sweeping floors....with medical benefits and dental....free with little or no deductions or co-pay when he retires......etc....etc.....

I'm not really sure why it is a problem for a person to go to work and be willing to work each day for 30 or more years to ask for some security in exchange.
Unless of course the boss man wants ALL of the security for himself.
Seriously, is everything really the fault of the guy doing the job?
I agree that things are a mess and that it is cheaper to build stuff overseas but there is a whole host of reasons why.

John,

I broke out roughnecking on oil rigs for my father at age 15. I was 14 the first time he woke me up in the middle of the night because one of his hands had shown up drunk and he need to make a trip ( put a new bit on). I have supported myself since age 15. I paid room and board to my parents as I am the oldest of 6 children and I was making nearly as much as my father.

I am not uncaring for the ground floor worker. I am at the bottom of the food chain myself today because I want to be here.

I am saying that providing that kind of wages and benefits for UNSKILLED labor...you notice I said a guy sweeping the floor....isn't reasonable and that is ONE of the reasons so many businesses moved their manufacturing overseas. LABOR IS A BIG EXPENSE and labor was cheaper overseas.

If you really want to discuss and solve a problem you have to be able to discuss ALL of the issues or circumstances that effect the problem. No emotions on my part. I am not taking a side. I am trying to point out factors that I believe helped create the current situation. Labor and long term benefits are issues that effect those types of decisions.

It's the selfishness of only looking at what is good for ones self..a narrowminded selfiness......that has helped create the current problem.

It was predicted and told to me over 20 years ago by a customer. I was skeptical about his prediction then.....He was right.

[Brian Kincaid]

Already available: Northfield.

-Brian

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Northfield is available at a significant price.

I understand it is great quality too.

I am extremely blessed in that I make an above average income. I still have a hard time justifying paying that kind of money for a tool used in a hobby. If I was operating a business that might be a different story but for a hobby....Can't justify it in my mind.

[Dan Friedrichs]

And.....everyone is responsible for this........the guy making $16/hour sweeping floors....with medical benefits and dental....free with little or no deductions or co-pay when he retires......etc....etc.....

I'm not really sure why it is a problem for a person to go to work and be willing to work each day for 30 or more years to ask for some security in exchange.


It's simple, John - the guy who can do your job overseas is willing to do it for $1/hr (instead of $16), doesn't expect medical benefits, will work 80 hours a week, and gets no pension when he leaves.

The fact is, American workers feel entitled to a certain standard of living, and there is no rational basis for a belief in that entitlement.

[John Pratt]

It may seem cynical, but I really don't care how much the worker who makes the product I desire brings home. I do care about the quality of the product I bring home and use. If a company can meet my needs at a cheaper price, then I buy from them. If not, then I look elsewhere. I agree that it is simple economics and most of that comes from my end and what I can afford or am willing to pay. I have to look out for my family as well. Do I wish that more products were made here in the U.S, of course I do. At the same time, am I willing to break the bank at home just to "Buy American", No. The one thing I am willing to spend a little more money on is customer service related to the product, because it is part of the overall quality of the product. That is a somewhat simple explaination but, it's my .02.

[Mike Archambeau]

Already available: Northfield.

-Brian

I think Oneida Air is another good example of a well engineered product, with great customer service, high build quality, and made in the Americas. And another company run by a leader who really pays attention to the stuff that matters. New York state is known for high taxes which makes it a little business unfriendly. But up there in Syracuse, Oneida is running a great business, building a great brand, and helping its employees earn a good living. Syracue is a town that was down on its luck after GE pulled out and sent manufacturing overseas. Oneida is doing a good business and helping Syracuse rise from the ashes like a Phoenix. Gotta hand it to them....just wish there were more like that.

Dave MacNeil (founder of the floor mat company) thinks that if his neighbor is not doing well, sooner of later he may be in the same boat. I think the last few years proved that many Americans are not immune from downturns. If we rebuild our economy by keeping local people working, the high standard of living that we have enjoyed will last, else it might not end well for many.

[Rod Sheridan]

I think Oneida Air is another good example of a well engineered product, with great customer service, high build quality, and made in the Americas.

Dave MacNeil (founder of the floor mat company) thinks that if his neighbor is not doing well, sooner of later he may be in the same boat. I think the last few years proved that many Americans are not immune from downturns. If we rebuild our economy by keeping local people working, the high standard of living that we have enjoyed will last, else it might not end well for many.

Performance and country of origin are why I bought an Oneida cyclone.

I also agree with the Dave MacNeil comment, if my neighbour is not employed, or under employed, they can't make enough money to send their kids to university, pay substantial taxes, or contribute to the community.

That eventually hurts all of us...........Rod.

[Ed Griner]

I believe its much simpler,you get what you pay for! Ed

[Dan Friedrichs]

I also agree with the Dave MacNeil comment, if my neighbour is not employed, or under employed, they can't make enough money to send their kids to university, pay substantial taxes, or contribute to the community.


I understand your sentiment, Rod, but just as a thought exercise: What's the difference between your neighbor next door, and your "neighbor" in Taiwan?

Buy a large woodworking machine from a Taiwanese factory, which pays a worker who uses the money to send his child to university, who becomes a famous researcher and cures cancer and benefits us all. The example you give above holds whether the worker is Canadian or foreign. Productive, contributing members of society don't exist only in North America.

[Steve Griffin]

I understand your sentiment, Rod, but just as a thought exercise: What's the difference between your neighbor next door, and your "neighbor" in Taiwan?

Buy a large woodworking machine from a Taiwanese factory, which pays a worker who uses the money to send his child to university, who becomes a famous researcher and cures cancer and benefits us all. The example you give above holds whether the worker is Canadian or foreign. Productive, contributing members of society don't exist only in North America.

Absolutely.

I'm a citizen of the world and a citizen of our great country.

Grizzly not only provides jobs for folks in places who need them even more than we do, they also provide many jobs here in the US. The warehouses, distribution, management etc are all here.

Indirectly they also create jobs by providing great equipment at cheap prices with excellent support. My business woodshop is full of green tools, and the savings has increased my ability to be self employed and hire employees.

It's all good and folks really need to cheer up a bit when capitalism is working so well.

-Steve

[Gary Herrmann]

I've got 4 Canadian General tools in my shop. Very well made tools. I have a number of LV planes and a set of LN chisels which are also very well made. I've had excellent customer service experience with all 3 companies.

If I could afford them (and get them down the stairs), I'd have Northfield tools in my shop.

I prefer to buy from North American manufacturers if at all possible. Sometimes, it just hasn't been realistic for what I've needed.

If I had the time, I'd buy all OWWM and refurbish them. I've done a little of that, and I worry about the slope and if I'd ever get any wwing done.

Based on what I've read here, I will take a close look at Grizzly next time I have a major purchase. Hmm. Small wide belt sander...

[Frank Guerin]

Another reason I love my old Rockwell machines. I rebuild them buying American parts when and if they do need them are availible.

As far as being a world economy when American manufacturing was present and strong it supported men and there famililes and there kids through college, then cooperate greed became a mainstream. If you do just a small investigation you will find that our money going over seas supports mainly the upper class. The workers are still not being compensated for their future so there children are in limbo.

We want the best deal, not the best equipment but we want what is good "enough" at the cheapest price.

If you call yourself an American you should support other American workers buy buying American products. The best bang for the buck is not necessarily just for yourself.

I do realize that many overseas products are good and cheaper and will last our lifetime for what we do with them but at the same time who will I sell my products to? Certainly not the neighbor that I helped put out of business and even if I only build for myself I would like to in all good conscience no I harmed no one in this great country doing so.

With all its faults this is the greatest country in the world and you support it in any way you can or make excuses.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers but untill someone can offer me direct proof that buying overseas (wood working equipment) is better for the USA, which I believe is better for Amercans more than just better for your own personell well being. We all want the best for the cheapest price but at what cost? It would seem we want what is good enough and be damed what it cost.

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Dan Friedrichs;1410121]I understand your sentiment, Rod, but just as a thought exercise: What's the difference between your neighbor next door, and your "neighbor" in Taiwan?

QUOTE]

Hi Dan, I guess the difference is that my neighbour in Taiwan doesn't contribute to my local tax base, and therefore cannot help pay for the societal items that are needed in my country.

In addition (not singling out any particular country) I like to purchase from countries that have similar, or better social and environmental programs than my country, if I can't find the item locally.

[Dan Friedrichs]

If you do just a small investigation you will find that our money going over seas supports mainly the upper class. The workers are still not being compensated for their future so there children are in limbo.


People in developing countries take manufacturing jobs because they offer better pay than whatever else is available. While 99% of profits may go to the owner, it doesn't really matter to me - the people are better off than they would be without the jobs.

[Robert Adamis]

I believe that it isn't because Americans can't be competitive on price. It's because our taxes and regulations make it extremely difficult to play on a global playing field. We over tax and over regulate our domestic businesses and at the same time open up the ports for countries that have no environmental or working standards. We even don't care if a country purposely manipulates their currency to boot! Can we be any more hypocritical? The blame for most of this goes directly to Washington and the incompetent goons that run the place (both sides of the aisle are just about equally guilty in their own respects as far as I'm concerned).

Another big factor is back in the day, the old manufacturing companies were started and run by one or two men. These guys built their companies from scratch by their own sweat and blood. They cared about their company and product because it was often their family name that was on the product. Over time the founder of the company passes on and the company changes hands. Eventually the family owned business gets bought out by some large corporation that then proceeds to take advantage of the reputation the family business once had (Delta/Powermatic/PorterCable/Dewalt etc...). Today we have large conglomerates run by Harvard and Yale business grads that know nothing about the products they make. They only look at dollars and stock prices. It's easy to offshore jobs when you don't look the guy on the factory floor in the eye everyday. Undercover Boss by CBS I think has shown how far out of touch these corporate execs have gotten from reality. It isn't until they experience life from the workers side of the coin do they realize their priorities are all screwed up, chasing the stock price at the cost of people's lives.

To make this personal I am actually a one third owner in a company that specializes in vandal resistant restroom accessories . We are a three person operation and all of our products are manufactured in the USA by a contract manufacturing plant in Oregon. Yes we probably could make a whole lot more money by off shoring our manufacturing but our company was founded on the principle of Americans employing Americans. We may not get rich doing this but at least we can sleep with ourselves at night knowing we tried to do our part.

[Paul McGaha]

Interesting reading. Broad range of thoughts.


Oneida Dust Collectors and Delta Unisaws are American made and they are affordable. Not the least expensive to be sure but affordable. I think if people had a readily available choice they would buy American. I would.

I dont know there are many options for jointers, planers, mortisers, miter saws, etc. that are American made. I mean for a hobbiest sort of shop.

I sincerely wish that companies like Delta and Powermatic had more avialable that was made in the USA. I would think they could sell them.

PHM

[Van Huskey]

You have to keep in mind Jet and later Grizzly are a big part of the reason PM, Delta et al had to go to Asia. In the end "we" decided with out pocketbooks and it isn't going to change. That said I am actually happy with the price and quality of most of the machines coming from Asia. If you want to buy American there are options, just not too many talked about here since the prices are lets just say scary.

[John Coloccia]

You have to keep in mind Jet and later Grizzly are a big part of the reason PM, Delta et al had to go to Asia. In the end "we" decided with out pocketbooks and it isn't going to change. That said I am actually happy with the price and quality of most of the machines coming from Asia. If you want to buy American there are options, just not too many talked about here since the prices are lets just say scary.

Was there some big price reduction somewhere that I missed? Albeit I was pretty young at the time, but I more remember it being some additional models introduced at a lower price point, coupled with lower quality....so I would expect to pay less because it's lower quality irrespective of where it's made.

My shop is full of tools made in the US, Canada, Taiwan, India and China. I try to keep my purchases local when possible (i.e. smaller, local retail outlets like Woodcraft), but I'm afraid I'm not running a charity and I need to get good value for my money. Van nailed it...the prices can be scary. It's easy to say "Buy Insert-Favorite-Country", but I don't see anyone offering to let me come over and use their shop to supplement the tools I can't afford if I don't go overseas. Oh, and good luck prying my Japanese chisels, Dragon rasps and Iwasaki files out of my cold, dead hands. :D Does anyone in the US even make a decent rasp anymore? Nicholson is in Brazil now and you couldn't give me one of their new rasps.

I really do try to keep it all here, and there's numerous examples of items that are manufactured in the US and Canada that are high quality and reasonably priced. Veritas and Clearvue come to mind for starters. Lie-Neilsen too, though you can argue the reasonably priced thing (but I own a bunch of their stuff too!). It doesn't have to be cheap. I DO have to get my money's worth, though. I pay more for a Veritas plane than a Groz plane, but the Veritas is a much nicer plane. Contrast that with some other items, which shall remain nameless, where I would pay more, yet I get an inferior product. Not on my dime.

A good product, reasonably priced and backed with great customer service will keep me coming back every single time.

[Don Morris]

As a retired serious hobbiest, I'd love a Northfield "whatever" in my shop. But I only once took a look at their price list. Have never gone back. I just can't justify the cost. I put 36 yrs in uniform for our country, a couple of them in Nam. No one would rather support US products than me, but a military retiree ends up with lots of gold on the sleeve and little in the pocket. My fixed income situation absolutely requires biggest bang for the buck.

[Ross Manning]

A plug for Lie Nielsen (and another good reason to pay a bit more on great tools from great companies)

I recently lost the fence for my LN 140 skew block plane. Sent an email to LN asking if the fence & support rod were available as spare parts & what was the cost. Got a reply back saying they would send the parts right out and what were my shipping details.

I sent back a note with the address, but pointing out I was located in Australia (expecting to at least have to pick up the shipping charges) Got a note back saying the parts had shipped & should be with me in a week or so.

That is what I call great customer service!

So, another new LN plane is now on my short term shopping list . These guys sure know how to build customer goodwill!!

[Rick Fisher]

I bought a jointer about a year ago.. could be a bit more.. I too wanted to get a domestic made machine..

My goal was to get a Canadian Made General 12" Jointer. I got a price, it was $13,500 ..

I ended up getting a demo model Griggio from Laguna for about $4600.. It was on sale for 50% off, a few scratched in the paint..

Add it up ..

A new Grizzly 12" Jointer is ??? $2500.00 - $4500
An Italian 12" Jointer is about $9000 today..
General or Northfeild .. $13,500.00

The General has since been discontinued.. They only make the 8" and 16" domestic now..

So, how can you justify paying $4500 extra for a Canadian or US made Jointer, over an SCM or Griggio ??

I am all for supporting domestic manufacturing, but why can Italy produce a quality jointer for $4500 less than North America ? I have to assume that the North American factories are not efficient ?? Why would I reward someone for not being able to compete?

I dont think Domestic should be able to compete with Asia, but if they cannot compete with Europe.. I cannot support them.

[Harold Burrell]

Think about this guys.......

It's not political....

It's purely economics.....

It's more expensive to manufacture in North America....and nobody is free of guilt when it comes down to it.

Why would any manufacturer want to pay to ship from Asian plants if they could ship cheaper from North American plants?

Because it is cheaper to manufacture overseas and import it here. Period.

The cost of labor is cheaper....there are fewer ecological laws to abide by..... and taxes......local and federal are cheaper.


It's cheaper to produce overseas and ship it here to North America.

And.....everyone is responsible for this........the guy making $16/hour sweeping floors....with medical benefits and dental....free with little or no deductions or co-pay when he retires......etc....etc.....

The local politicans who increase taxes rather than struggle with reducing costs.....

etc.....etc....


Furthermore made in North America doesnt' necessarily insure good quality. There are numerous examples of quality issues of products made in the USA and Canada.

We are all to blame. We want more for less.....and we are selfish....we don't care how our pay raise or benefits effect the business or the products

The businesses are to blame.....it's easier to move production overseas....than to wrestle with the environmentalists here at home...and the labor....and the taxes.


Do you really think anyone would want to manufacture something overseas and transport it here if it was a cost effective to manufacture it here?


Rod.....not everybody can afford to buy the North American or European made machines.

Ken, you nailed it.

Personally, I cringe whenever I buy Asian import stuff. I so desperately want to see America compete and "make it".

However...

I am finding it more and more difficult to justify paying the premium to buy American. I simply cannot afford it. Case in point...I am a hobbiest (at best). The two biggest machines that I own are from Grizzly, a tablesaw and a jointer. I am currently scratching and saving my pennies to purchase a bandsaw. Again...I am looking at a Grizzly. It is taking me MONTHS.

If I were to buy American, it would take me years.

So...that's the bottomline.

Is American made better quality? If you say so. However, my stuff seems to do a pretty good job cutting boards.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Ever notice there is often a hue-and-cry about the survival of local mom-and-pop retailers when WalMart announces plans for a new store, and then when it opens, the WalMart does a gang-buster volume? Who is protesting? What is their agenda? Who shops at the WalMart? What is their agenda?

Isolationism always fails. Period. Economic or political - and they are very nearly the exact same thing. You do not go to war against countries with whom you have significant trade.

[Kevin Barnett]

To be honest, I'm tired of hearing about how things made in Canada or the USA always cost more. There are plenty of examples where that's just not true. Sure they may pay lower wages in some countries, but there are offsetting costs like shipping, quality, environmental aspects. Most folks are looking at premium products like Northfield or LN in this comparison. Since there is no Asian equivalent, that's a pretty poor comparison. The new Delta Unisaw is a great example. Sure it cost more than the Asian made Unisaw, but it is quite a bit better.

As a case in point, at one time, most powertools were made here in the USA. Manufacturing moved, over time, to the Far East. The prices never went down on most of the powertools when this happened. However, there have been degrades in components. Yes, relative prices for things have gone down over the years, but there was no jump when the box changed to "made in China". The price reductions, I surmise, go with manufacturing efficiencies and lower quality components. American made cars don't cost double what Korea charges. I can't see why we wouldn't say the same about tools.

I too would like to see a great company like Grizzly at least try to offer a few USA or Canada made products. They have sourced from Germany. Can they work out something here in the US or Canada? That would be a great option.

BTW all my major tools are Asian made except the drill press and radial arm saw. To be honest, there wasn't a real Made in USA option when I bought them unless I wanted to pay 3X the price. Certainly, there is room for a USA/Canadian company to come out with something that isn't on the high end of the quality/overbuilt spectrum.

[Robert Adamis]

Isolationism always fails. Period. Economic or political - and they are very nearly the exact same thing. You do not go to war against countries with whom you have significant trade.

Isolationism may always fail but I don't believe anybody here is advocating isolationism. I am advocating that we remove the barriers that we put on our own companies like taxes and regulation. Then we should also demand that our trading partners have basic standards of wages/work/environmental/currency standards similar to our own. Level the playing field and American manufactures will do very well competing against others.

In the case of what options are available today that are affordable (less and less of course) I am often wondering why do people continually buy new stuff made in China when used stuff made in the USA (or rather just not made in China) is abundantly available. My entire collection of tools I have purchased in just the last two years include:

90s Unisaw with the works (USA) $800
90s Bandsaw (USA) $450
Rockwell Super 900 (USA) $160
Delta Plate Jointer (USA) $30
Rockwell RC 380 (Brazil) $460
Delta DJ15 6" Jointer (Brazil) $500
Delta Mortiser (England) $40
Delta Oscillating Spindle Sander (Taiwan) $80
90s CPK 18" Drill Press (Taiwan) $125
Shop Fox 6" Belt, 12" Disc Sander (Taiwan) $50

Total cost for all of this was ~$2695. Am I getting great prices? Maybe not the best but I have an almost complete shop and not one tool made in China. The point is for those that say they want to support American manufacturers but just can't afford it there is always the used market. Sure it doesn't directly infuse cash into the coffers of American companies but it does send a message that people are willing to pay a premium for good used equipment manufactured in the Americas rather then pay the same price for something new made off shore.

By the way to bring this back full circle to the original post... Is Grizzly an American owned company? I thought it was a Taiwanese company, or is it they manufacture mostly in Taiwan? For certain they seem to make good tools at a good price and most seem to be happy with them.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I will remind everyone that political comments and politics are not allowable subjects at this website.

[Cody Colston]

Personally, the country of origin never comes into the equation when I am considering a tool purchase (or any purchase for that matter.) If the quality and the service is good enough to meet my needs and the price is affordable, that's all that matters to me.

Like Ken wrote, it's all a matter of economics. Companies are not benevolence societies but rather are in the business of making money, either for the owner or for the shareholders. If there is an alternative to restrictive regulation, unending taxation and a work force that continually demands higher wages and increased benefits, then a company would be foolish not to pursue it.

In the end, I don't judge woodworkers by the manufacturer of their tools, either, but rather by the quality and quantity of what they build with those tools. One can have a huge shop with state-of-the-art, expensive tools but if they are never used to build anything, what's the point?

[Horton Brasses]

Many European factories operate with government support. IE, reduced taxes, subsidized labor, subsidized financing. And of course the companies don't pay for any health care or retirement plans for the most part.

Actually, despite talk of Europe being very high tax, their corporate tax rates are lower than ours while their personal tax rates are higher.

Hope that didn't get political, but it is my understanding of the situation.

[james bell]

I have worked for both a French company and a British company selling to North and South America. I have also worked for a US company selling internationally, especially to third world countries, but also to Europe.

With the exception of France and probably unionized locations in the US, most of the world purchases the best product which fits into their budget, regardless of where it is manufactured. Most of my customers 'assumed' customer service would be there, at least I gave them that impression. Not the best quality, not the cheapest price (unless it is for a one time job and the item will work), but the best price performance within budget. PERIOD. Otherwise everybody would drive ferrari's and rolls, not yugos.

I would prefer to purchase from a US manufacturer, but only if it fits price performance. Until last year, I stayed away from Grizzly due to the fact I wasn't sure about their quality performance. After reading about them on this website, their quality seems to have improved as has their customer service, I have since purchase a large jointer and planer and have been happy. I did go with a Minimax 16 over Laguna after reading some blogs about a lack of customer service from Laguna. Maybe sour grapes by some people, but enough to make me wary.

[Dave Lehnert]

Just something to compare

I own the Shopsmith wood planer for over 20 years. Made in Dayton Ohio. Emerson motor. Cast Iron bed. variable speed feed motor. $1,499 and worth evey cent. (Cost me $900 years ago) Can be had on sale today for around $1,100.

http://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/catalog/images/FSProPlaner.jpg

Next is the DeWalt wood planer. Universal motor. $600. Made overseas.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mbxt1fM-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Show of hands. Who owns the Dewalt vs the Shopsmith.???

[Charles Krieger]

Just wondering...... How many of the people posting here own or have owned non American branded automobiles? I for one have never owned a foreign brand. Always owned GM or Ford. I currently own two Ford products, no Government Motors for me. Yes I realize that many automobile components are foreign made even in the domestic brands but at least some of the content is American, and the corporations are American. That is the best I can do.

Unfortunately most of my woodworking tools are Asian, even my PM2000. If the current Unisaw had been available when I bought the PM2000 I would have been glad to have purchased it instead. (Yes I realize that the Unisaw is assembled in the USA of domestic and foreign components.) If I could have found used American tools in my area at the time I was making the purchases I would have bought them. I scoured the local ads, and CL for a Unisaw and after a month I gave up.

I predicted the demise of the American automobile manufacturers some 40 years ago when the imported cars were still a small fraction of the total cars sold. I was laughed at by my friends who were purchasing Datsuns and Toyotas when I bought a GM product but I was determined to support the American brands.

We had already lost the camera manufacturing business to Japan. We were rapidly losing the electronics manufacturing business for TV and Hi Fi equipment. I didn't want to see automobile manufacturing go the same way. Americans invented the VCR but who capitalized on that? Has anyone ever owned a VCR that was manufactured in America?

For a period of time Americans still designed and engineered products that were produced in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and other countries. Now engineering is being outsourced to India, Russia, and China. Call centers are now frequently in India. State governments are even outsourcing to foreign countries. When does it end?

I believe that one of the major problems to be solved is to become competitive in our educational system again. We are no longer a world leader in education of our children, especially in math and science. We don't even excel in engineering education. Ask the leaders in silicon valley if they woud rather have a graduate of India Institute or UC Berkeley and don't be surprised if the student from India gets the nod. There was a time when a college degree from an American school meant something but I'm afraid that day has faded into the past.

I think Jack Kennedy had it right when he said: "Ask not what your country can do for you, but rather ask what you can do for your country."

We have lost the vision that put a man on the moon. We have lost the morality, ethics and self determination that made America great.

Rise up and be proud of America! I love this country and I want my children and grandchildren to have the opportunities that my forefathers allowed me to experience. We all need to work hard to make that possible.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I will remind everyone.

Political statements and discussions violate the Terms Of Service of this website.

This thread is being closely monitored by the Mods and posts that violate the TOSs will be edited, deleted or the entire thread will be removed should it become to much trouble to keep it within the TOSs.

[Van Huskey]

Just something to compare




Show of hands who owns which, but there is more than a couple of hundred dollars between these, about a Kia difference in fact...

If you get the NO. 4 NORTHFIELD TILTING ARBOR VARIETY SAW WITH 36" X 52" SLOTTED ROLLING TABLE there is a Lexus IS difference between them. In other words you could buy THIRTY Grizzly 1023RLs for the price of the above referenced Northfield. The #4 even has a motor OPTION that cost more than the Grizzly, but the one I mention above does have a 3200 pound shipping weight now thats "new" arn


http://cdn1.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg288/g/g1023rl.jpg (http://www.grizzly.com/products/G1023RL/images/)

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/tablesaws/4saw.gif

[james bell]

One exception I make to my buying the best quality for the price is on smaller items I can get locally. Living in the country - 45 miles from the nearest small town with a single box store, is that I will purchase from local vendors to keep them in business. Comes in handy when I need something in an emergency for a project. Lots of hardware and small power/hand tools.

Prices are higher - not substantially - but knowing they are there is comforting.

As will most, my shop is full of international products, from a Unisaw and Oneida (US) to Minimax (Italy) and Grizzly (Taiwan) - and just ordered the Sawstop which is also Asia. Best quality product for my budget with the tie breaker going to customer service first, then US manufacturer. But like most, I read all the reviews I can and for the past three years have kept every tool review done by the trade rags. I use to only keep the ones I thought I would purchase, until one of my tools failed and I could not find the old review on the net.

Great comments, and hopefully not to politically sensitive for our censors!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

James,

We aren't censors per se but Moderators.

Everyone was supposed to read, understand, and agree to abide with the TOSs of this website when they joined.

Political statements and discussions are prohibited by the TOSs.

Believe me when I say none of the Moderators enjoy editing or deleting posts or moving threads to the Moderator's Forum. We take a lot of heat for those actions.

Just recently, I was sent a PM for a similar action with threats/warnings of possible future legal action involving myself and SMC. I wasn't the person who moved the thread, I just tried to explain why the thread was moved. Huh?:confused: Talk about shooting the messenger.

The point is this website is about woodworking and other related subjects. I would hate to see heated political discussions ruin the spirit of SMC. This is one of the most civil sites on the internet where Pros and Novices alike can come together to exchange information and maybe share a little of their lives.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

This discussion has wandered about a lot, but I think that the ultimate answer to the op is that Grizzly has tools manufactured according to their quality standards to sell. If they could manufacture them in the US and be able to price them so that they would sell, I think the would. They have tools manufactured in a lot of locations, they don't seem Taiwan-centric or any other bias. I'm always surprised, however, that the US hasn't managed to lead in automated and robotic manufacturing, thereby allowing our workers to be more productive, earn higher wages and still compete in the global market. I'm a veterinarian and I'm always surprised that things like syringes and needles are imported-- surely they aren't labor intensive!

[Dan Friedrichs]

We are no longer a world leader in education of our children, especially in math and science. We don't even excel in engineering education. Ask the leaders in silicon valley if they woud rather have a graduate of India Institute or UC Berkeley and don't be surprised if the student from India gets the nod. There was a time when a college degree from an American school meant something but I'm afraid that day has faded into the past.


I think this may be overly pessimistic. Student in other countries do better on math and science tests because they spend SIGNIFICANTLY more time in the classroom, and their parents send them to additional, private, schooling well beyond the normal school day. I'm not sure that results in a better, happier, life.

My experience in the US engineering schools is that no broad distinctions can be made. There are some really lazy American students, but there are also equally lazy foreign students. Some of each are really good, some of each are really bad. The Indian Institutes of Tech have earned a good reputation for turning out quality engineers, but they've also earned a reputation of being so packed full that really bad engineers can "blend in with the herd" and get a degree anyways.

So: broad generalizations are generally a bad idea, and the sky is not falling. :)

[Mr. Jeff Smith]

I'm not going to attempt to tackle the breadth of this discussion in full here, after all WWing is my break from my job which is dealing with stuff like this...

Anyway, something most people fail to appreciate in this type of discussion is why labor is cheaper overseas. Sure, in general its driven from a substantial lower quality of living standard, but a huge part of it is currency fixing that is taking place. Some call it unfair, I don't proclaim to know.

Also worth mentioning is that the discussion really should not be about buying American to save jobs, on the contrary that is a function of the bigger issue which is where the profit is sent when you buy something. The more profit retained in America the better America will be, and jobs naturally will follow. This is true for any country, which leads some countries to fix their currency as stated above. Don't concern yourself with where its made, concern yourself where the profit goes, its the best predictor of future investment in that area IMO. (Consequently, usually if its made in the USA, the profit stays in the USA, so its a shortcut to making a decision usually)

[Sean Nagle]

Jeff, profits alone don't explain why it's advantageous to retain manufacturing in the U.S. The total cost of a product includes the cost of goods sold, overhead and profit. When an American-made product using American-made parts and labor is manufactured and sold, all three of the price components stay in the U.S. to be spent yet again. The more times you can get those dollars spent within the U.S. economy the better off the U.S. standard of living is.

[Mr. Jeff Smith]

Jeff, profits alone don't explain why it's advantageous to retain manufacturing in the U.S. The total cost of a product includes the cost of goods sold, overhead and profit. When an American-made product using American-made parts and labor is manufactured and sold, all three of the price components stay in the U.S. to be spent yet again. The more times you can get those dollars spent within the U.S. economy the better off the U.S. standard of living is.

I whole heartily agree. But COGS and overhead are usually less than the profit/margin of a product, that is one reason I argue to focus on the profit portion (The other being future investment od said profit).

For what is worth, I always try to buy American made and owned due to my concerns over our national debt, and am fortunate to be able to pay more to do so. On the otherhand I also sacrifice cable television, cell phone service etc. to save money so I can buy the toys of my choice. :)