Rectangular Bench Dog Dimensions

[Michael Peet]

Is there a "standard" size for rectangular dogs? So far I have not really found a consensus but I haven't looked exhaustively either. Here is what I am considering:

149244

Any thoughts appreciated -

Mike

[Mike Brady]

Mike, those looks to be very good dimensions for the wood dogs. I recently made a few protypes and glued up a short section of benchtop to test them. In my version, and added a spring of hickory to the side of the dog, as you see in the LN square dogs. I have to tell you that after that test I decided to go with round dogs on my new bench. I relied heavily on christopher Schwarz's comments that "square dogs just aren't worth the trouble". I very much like my Lee Valley hold down and would not consider using the typical driven iron hold downs that many people use. Something about pounding that hard on a bench that I have countless hours of build time in just bothers me. I also don't need to work that fast that I can't take the time to unscrew the LV hold down. I also like the LV round brass dogs. I think they retain their fit quite well also. I know you didn't ask about round dogs, but after making a few square ones and seeing how much effort was to be required in milling the holes and fitting a square dog specifically for each dog hole, I went over to the other side. By the way, I drilled my dog strip for the bench in my drill press in about 15 minutes and got 10 perfectly straight holes. That was after spending hours experimenting with square ones.

[Russell Sansom]

I've had 3/4" x 1" dogs for many decades and have always loved them. I got the idea originally from a Krenov book and simply copied his dog design using a small spring from a ball point pen.
I don't want to start a "my way" vs. "your way debate" because we all have to find our own paths through the forest of decisions and I'm with Mike about not pounding a hold-down into my bench. But the first time I ran a plane over the top of one of my hardwood dogs, I took it out and stared at it for a minute and realized that if it had been metal I would have trashed 1/8" of a perfectly-sharpened blade and I might have chipped the plane mouth. I would have lost a half hour to resharpening, and it could have been a week before I got it cambered and beveled back right where I wanted it.
I have run over the dogs many times since. Not through faulty workmanship, but working on very thin material or just wanting to get as much dog as possible on the work for one reason or another. Every time a dog takes it on the head like this, I tell myself that when the time comes, I'll pass on the experience to anyone who wants to hear it. So, there you go. Evidently, many people aren't bothered by this problem at all, because they use metal dogs and metal dogs appear in several catalogs for sale.
For me, chopping the dog holes was a delightful experience. I got very stubborn about not creating a "comb" of holes with a table saw and then gluing a face board on the front of the bench. When I needed a break from daily woodworking chores, I'd take a little break and chop a hole. When a dog wears out I reface it or take an hour and build 4 more plus a couple blanks for custom fit situations ( Like a Vee face to receive the corner of a board ).
Besides, the wooden dogs are very simple and pretty little objects. I hand one to a new visitor and show them how they work in the bench and they are always delighted and fascinated, working them in and out until the little light goes on over their heads. They get a small taste of what it is to be a woodworker.

[Jim Koepke]

Just to throw in my 2¢, I have used round dogs and holes, but have seen the rectangular dogs and holes and can see why they could be better.

I have seen the rectangular holes with a slight slant to them to help to secure work from popping out of being held.

Another thing that I saw that seemed kind of neat was a sprung dog in each hole. Then instead of looking around for a dog, just reach under the bench and push one up.

I guess when I make a bench, it just might have round and rectangular dog holes.

I think the dogs and rectangular dog holes I have seen were 3/4 X 1 inch. That would make sense since a lot of lumber comes in at about 3/4 inch.

jim

[Bruce Haugen]

your diagram is fine. It almost doesn't matter. There is no force you can apply, unless the vise on your bench is a hydraulic piston, that could possibly break a hardwood dog more than 3/4" thick. What else matters?

Mine are 7/8" X 1-1/4" oak with an oak "spring" because that's what I had.

[Frank Drew]

I have to tell you that after that test I decided to go with round dogs on my new bench. I relied heavily on christopher Schwarz's comments that "square dogs just aren't worth the trouble".

I have no idea why Mr. Schwarz would say anything of this sort; I guess I'd have to see his whole quote or the reasoning behind it before I label his remark as preposterous, but I used made-from-scrap square/rectangular bench dogs for over almost thirty years, in two different shops, consider them to work exactly as intended, and I can't imagine what he means by "aren't worth the trouble". What trouble?

I've never used round dogs so perhaps they work better than I imagine; I am opposed to most metal bench top fixtures, though, for exactly the reason Russell notes.

[Mike Brady]

C. Schwarz reiterated just this week in his blog that his preference is for round bench dogs. In fact he mentions sources for the hardwood dowels and ball catches that he uses. His primary reason seems to be that there are many good bench enhancements that use round holes.
As far as your comments about square dogs, I wonder if you have just used them, or have you had to make a bench top and the dogs from scratch? They are great to use, but not so much fun to create. They also require an elaborate routing template and the use of one of the most dangerous power tools, the router. A friend of mine, and a 35-year woodworker, is now recovering from a very serious router injury; all from making a jewelry box. I'll stay with my 3/4" drill bit.
If I was buying a $2500 Lie-Nielsen bench, I'm sure I would be very happy with the square bench dogs they provide on their product, and then add some round holes where needed.

[Frank Drew]

As far as your comments about square dogs, I wonder if you have just used them, or have you had to make a bench top and the dogs from scratch? They are great to use, but not so much fun to create. They also require an elaborate routing template and the use of one of the most dangerous power tools, the router.

Mike, I'm not sure if your questions are addressed to me, but if so: I made my own bench in 1981, basically a slightly enlarged Tage Frid FWW design but without the tool trough. The dog holes in the bench top and tail vise are slightly tilted towards one another, as Jim mentions. The dogs themselves have never been more than pieces of scrap cut to shape on the band saw, very much like Mike Peets drawing -- no springs, no bullet catches, just an L-shaped piece of wood; I always had a bunch handy that differed
in the thickness of the part that both kept the dog from falling through the hole and stuck up on the bench surface, in order to hold different thickness of wood.

I'm confused by your remark about an elaborate router template... to do what? It's just a bench dog, not a missile component. Two cuts on the band saw, zero expense, zero cleanup, done and done.

Edit: Re-reading your post, perhaps you meant that cutting the dog holes requires an elaborate router setup; I can't remember exactly how I cut mine, but I think it was on the table saw, maybe crosscutting on an angle with the dado set, although it's possible that I cut the individual, angled blocks, glued them up, carefully positioned to create the necessary dog hole space, sandwiched between the front board and the rest of the bench top.

[Michael Peet]

Thanks for the thoughts fellas. Mike, yes - I am in the process of building from scratch and am approaching the point where I would need to build the dog block if I go the rectangular route.

I have never used either, as I have never had a bench with dogs before. I was planning a row of rectangular dogs in line with the wagon vice and a few round ones near the back for hold downs. I am not necessarily interested in one over the other based on ease or speed of construction; the flexibility of the round dog holes is the only temptation to go that route.

Mike

[Matt Radtke]

They are great to use, but not so much fun to create. They also require an elaborate routing template and the use of one of the most dangerous power tools, the router.

Heh. I'm doing rectangular dogs on my new bench and my router hasn't touch my dog strip. I built the holes via lamination. (I have pictures are home, I'll post them later.) I'll do my best to explain in the meantime.

I took a piece of my top stock--2x12s ripped into 2x4s--and ripped them again, leaving me with two 1/2x4s and some waste. Another 2x4 was then crosscut on my table saw, every 3 inches or so, with my miter gauge set to about 2*. Put the "bump" in with a combination of my table saw and hand saws.

For review, you have two 1/2"x3.5"x96" pieces and about 20 1"x3.5"x3.5" blocks.

To ease up gluing everything, I used a biscuit joiner and a piece of pine scrap to space each block. It's a giant dog hole sandwich.

[Frank Drew]

Michael Peet,

To answer your original question... the long part should be an easy, not tight, fit in your bench dog hole (which is preferably on angle as per Jim's remark); the width of the smaller, return piece has to be enough so that the dog can't fall through the hole, and has to stick up enough to secure the wood you're working on, but not so much that it sticks up above the work in a way that could foul your plane. So an assortment is handy. Any more than that is overthinking the issue, IMO.

[Mike Brady]

I don't think we are all on the same page in our approach to the subject. If we are talking simple and effective, then we could start with a nail driven into the benchtop. That makes an effective planing stop. At the other end of the spectrum, I assumed that in building a bench the builder would want the dog to adjustable in height down to almost zero protrusion and then the dog would be stored in the dog hole when not needed. Many of the bench bulders that I know make a dog for every hole and keep them there. There is nothing new about any of this. It is just the nice way to do it. For the above to happen consistently, there should be some kind of tensioner on the dog to compensate for variation in wear. Again, the traditional way is to inlet a thin piece of hickory into the side of of the dog. Lastly, the dog should have a slightly closed face to keep the workpiece down on the bench when under tension. Some people put leather on the faces. I suggest you go to the Benchcrafted website and see how Jameel makes his. Granted his benches are way beyond what is needed to be functional, but at least he raises the standard high enough that something short of his results still means you have a fantastic end result. If you look through his pages, he shows his setup for making the dog strip using the router technique. If you are good enough with a bandsaw to get those results, or if you are satisfied with much less, right on!
I am building a bench right now. It is the largest amount of wood and the most material cost I have ever put into a woodworking project (110 + bf of ash and about $800 of cost with one new vise and one old one reused from my last bench). At that, it is still a modest bench compared to what I am seeing around...no cocobolo knobs or curly maple here. I guess I want to pleased as possible with the results, particularly where the added value comes from my limited skills and plentiful sweat, and not just paying somebody for their stuff.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.........I have seen the rectangular holes with a slight slant to them to help to secure work from popping out of being held.

Another thing that I saw that seemed kind of neat was a sprung dog in each hole. Then instead of looking around for a dog, just reach under the bench and push one up.



Bingo. No personal experience with round. Never saw the need - not an argument.