Laguna LT 16 3000 Series! A question or two...

[Rick Markham]

Hey gang, I finally got power run to my new LT 16, (It's been a bit of a wait but I got a 240V line run for $75 bucks so I can't complain, thank God for good friends) Anyway, I fired it up for a brief second to make sure the blade was tracking, and it was... set up the guides... set my nickel on the table and fired it up again. Not a single shake or shimmy, the nickel stayed put on its edge until after the motor was shut down and the blade was about stopped. I was pleased as can be!

Incidently the day that the line got ran, my Driftmaster fence arrived (it was on backorder) so I installed it. I am exceptionally pleased beyond belief with the saw and the fence. Drift angle takes all of about 7 seconds to adjust for, and the fence is solid as can be. (it weighs somewhere around 60+ lbs)

So this brings me to my question. Do any of you know what the lifting capacity of the Gas assist tube is on this model saw, and the travel length? I am planning on replacing it with a much stronger one. Since the weight of the driftmaster negates any usefulness of it. Have any of you tried this? I have found a supplier online, but I need to figure out what force in pounds I am going to need to compensate for the weight of the new fence. If I knew the force exerted by the stock gas tube, it would give me a good idea of what I need to increase it too. (I don't know the weight of the table, and I don't want to have to take it off to figure out its' mass.) Any help ya'll can provide would be appreciated.

This weekend (hopefully) I will have my dust system set up, then I am ready to rock and roll. Much thanks ya'll!!! ---Rick

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/003-2.jpg

[Rick Markham]

100 views, and no one has an idea. LOL time to see if Tim can get me some technical specs. I take it no one has tried this yet? Someone has to be the first :D

[Sean Nagle]

Rick, congratulations. Nice machine, I've got one too. Wait until you put it to use, you'll really enjoy it. I can't help you with the strut info. Have you contacted Laguna?

[Michael Peet]

Hey Rick,

I don't know the answer to any of your questions, but that's a nice-looking saw. Congrats!

Mike

[Karl Stowe]

Very nice saw. Glad to see it is up and running. I am not sure what the gas assits even does. Would you be able to explain to a rookie? Off ebay I got an 18" resaw master that is 1998 year. It can handle a 2" blade but when I put the 2" blade on it wouldnt track right. The blade could be bad but we got a new 1" blade for now. Some day I will get a nice new 2" blade because it just looks cool with a 2" blade. Does the drift master fence have inch increments on it?

Thanks,
Karl

[Rick Markham]

Karl, Wow, that's an awesome saw!!! Showing me up I see... :D On these newer saws, they have put a gas assist tube (like a hydraulic spring) to help lift the table so the rack and pinion movement of the table angle is smooth. Well you put the weight of the Driftmaster on there, and it just becomes a real bear to try and adjust. It should be an easy fix, I just need to replace the tube with a stronger one. Unfortunately they aren't particularly cheap, so I want to make sure that I order the right one the first time. I'd like to see Laguna come up with an optional one made to compensate, but that is a suggestion for the future ;) hint hint... I guess I will contact Tim and see if I can get him to find some technical specs. If he can't, then I will have to give it my best guess.

The Driftmaster comes with a "bolt on" measuring stick (angled aluminum) looks really nice, however it doesn't fit on my saw with the fence on it. (I'll figure something out, just gonna have to be creative. Any suggestions are welcome) I haven't had a good chance to play with the fence, but it is set up so each turn of the adjustment wheel is a set distance. Each tick mark around the wheel is equivalent to .004" or .1mm, each full rotation of the adjustment wheel is .07" or 1.75mm. Seriously is a heavy duty fence, built like a tank. First time using it took me 7 seconds or so to adjust for drift, now it is probably only a few seconds at best.

[Mike Archambeau]

Karl, Wow, that's an awesome saw!!! Showing me up I see... :D On these newer saws, they have put a gas assist tube (like a hydraulic spring) to help lift the table so the rack and pinion movement of the table angle is smooth. Well you put the weight of the Driftmaster on there, and it just becomes a real bear to try and adjust. It should be an easy fix, I just need to replace the tube with a stronger one. Unfortunately they aren't particularly cheap, so I want to make sure that I order the right one the first time. I'd like to see Laguna come up with an optional one made to compensate, but that is a suggestion for the future ;) hint hint... I guess I will contact Tim and see if I can get him to find some technical specs. If he can't, then I will have to give it my best guess.

Rick;

Could you put a second gas cyclinder on it to compensate for the added weight?

The Driftmaster comes with a "bolt on" measuring stick (angled aluminum) looks really nice, however it doesn't fit on my saw with the fence on it. (I'll figure something out, just gonna have to be creative. Any suggestions are welcome) I haven't had a good chance to play with the fence, but it is set up so each turn of the adjustment wheel is a set distance. Each tick mark around the wheel is equivalent to .004" or .1mm, each full rotation of the adjustment wheel is .07" or 1.75mm. Seriously is a heavy duty fence, built like a tank. First time using it took me 7 seconds or so to adjust for drift, now it is probably only a few seconds at best.

Rick;

Could you put a second gas cyclinder on it to compensate for the added weight?

[Rick Markham]

I suppose that I could put a second gas tube. However I think that would over complicate the system, since the the table is traveling in an arc. (I could put them side by side, one inside the bracket, and one outside of the bracket and eliminate that. However replacing the single tube with another one with more force, would be the simpler option. My fear with adding a second tube that was exactly similar is that it would "help" but still be too small. In which case I am back to square one.

The force exerted on the table changes in relation to the position of the fence on the table ;) when the heavy portion of the fence is farther away from the pivot point, the force required to move the table is increased. 66lbs, right by the pivot point (fence is close to the blade) there is more leverage, and the table is easier to move. 66lbs far away from the pivot point your effective leverage is substantially reduced, and the table becomes a PITA to move. Pictures are in order...

Gas Assist tube...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/BandsawGasAssisttube001.jpg

Rack and Pinion table adjustment hand wheel...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/BandsawGasAssisttube002.jpg

Gas tube mounting bracket (bottom)...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/BandsawGasAssisttube003.jpg

Gas tube mounting bracket (top)...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/BandsawGasAssisttube004.jpg

business end of the Driftmaster (all cast iron, it's a TANK)...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/BandsawGasAssisttube005.jpg

So what do ya'll do who have a similar set up? Do you just "grin and bear it"? I will be honest with ya it seems to be well over 60lbs that I have to lift with my left hand, twist the rack and pinion knob to get it to 45 degrees. switch hands (right hand holding the table now) left hand tightening the screw under the table to set the table. (which by the way requires making sure it is exceptionally tight) if it is the slightest bit loose, the table will self adjust itself (my fear being with extreme force if I am not dilligent every time LOL)

Don't get me wrong, I am a young man and very capable of this operation, but at some point I won't be so young, or possibly not capable of lifting this. I love this saw without a doubt! I'm not being nit picky here, I just have suspicions that this is a problem that I am sure other's of you might want addressed with a solution. I know if I was 10 years older than I am, I wouldn't want to have to do this very often. So far it is the only major drawback to adding the driftmaster to this saw.

Possibly my mind is over engineering a problem that doesn't exist, I expect ya'll to keep me in line :D

[Mike Archambeau]

Rick;

Looks like there might be room for two cylinders side by side. If you pull the clevis pins and replace them with longer pins, you might get two cylinders on there. The longer clevis pins can be found at a good hardware store or Agriculture (tractor) dealer. You might have to changeout the machine screw that holds the bracket for the lower shock mount if it interferes with the arc.

Those shocks look a lot like the ones found on my SAAB 9000 hatch. SAAB used a spoiler on the turbo which added weight and therefore required a stronger gas shock. Here is a link for the heavy duty gas shock: http://www.eeuroparts.com/Main/PartDetail.aspx?id=6956288

If the length is similar, they might do the trick. And the price is reasonable. eEuroparts is located in CT and I have purchased many things from them for my cars, and I highly recommend them.

[Rick Markham]

Thanks for the link Mike, That is a definite possibility, the ones I am looking at now are about 4 times that much, but are available in different force ratings. After having lifted the table with this one on, the force required, since the table width is fairly small if pretty great (very little actual leverage) If I had to give a rough guess (wishing I had weighed the table before putting it on) the combined weight of the fence and table together is probably around 100 to 120 lbs. (which actually might be similar to the total weight of a SAAB hatch.) MY other fear is getting a gas tube that is too strong, then I will have to sit on it to get it back to 0 degrees :rolleyes:

[Brendan Plavis]

Thanks for the link Mike, That is a definite possibility, the ones I am looking at now are about 4 times that much, but are available in different force ratings. After having lifted the table with this one on, the force required, since the table width is fairly small if pretty great (very little actual leverage) If I had to give a rough guess (wishing I had weighed the table before putting it on) the combined weight of the fence and table together is probably around 100 to 120 lbs. (which actually might be similar to the total weight of a SAAB hatch.) MY other fear is getting a gas tube that is too strong, then I will have to sit on it to get it back to 0 degrees :rolleyes:
Lol.... Been there done that, by over powering things... Seems to be a trend with our generations..... I had one kid in a extra cericular(awful spelling) course of mine(extra credit :cool:) who managed to bend what had to be 2inch square tubing up like a prezel, making a catapult out of it...(the frame was rock solid too...:eek:.. )

[Wes Grass]

"MY other fear is getting a gas tube that is too strong, then I will have to sit on it to get it back to 0 degrees"

You won't have to worry about that for long ... they all leak down and quit working eventually anyway ;-)

In addition to the location of the fence playing a part, there's also the change in leverage as the table is raised. It gets 'lighter' the further up it is, which may or may not be compensated for by the angle of the gas spring. The effective radius it's pushing on gets smaller as well.

Kind of a hard thing to figure out and get it 'just right', but considering the way the cylinders leak and change pressure with temperature it's never perfect anyway.

You may be able to estimate the force of the gas spring by compressing it with one end on a bathroom scale. I'd average the readings between compressing it slowly and letting it extend slowly.

And at least you have a knob. My LT-16HD has a hex and a formed sheet metal wrench to slip on and off as you go. And no gas spring at all. And yet it doesn't seem to be an issue ... but I don't have a Driftmaster on it either.

[Alan Lightstone]

I have the same issue with my LT14 and Driftmaster. I'd really love to know what you come up with. Did you call Laguna and ask?

[Mike Archambeau]

Rick;

Another possibility is to add an extension wing to your table. The weight of your extension will help tilt the table (like a counter weight). Grizzly shows a cast iron extension table in the catalog on one of the larger band saws. Something like this extends your work surface as well. You could make an extension out of something heavy like mdf with laminate on the top surface and attach it to your saw the way people do with outfeed tables for cabinet saws.

[Brian Kincaid]

I don't want to detract too much from the conversation, but how much will you really be using the table tilt? If it's a lot I'm interested to know why?

I was very big on getting a solid table on my bandsaw, but in reality I probably would have been happy if it were welded in a fixed 90degree position. :D

I just finished installing my driftmaster on my Griz 21" saw. I love the fence, but I didn't get the math right so I need to adjust it's position again.

-Brian

[Rick Markham]

Brian, that's an interesting point. Probably not an exceptional amount, however I do have several projects that have small pieces cut at 45 degree angles, which I would prefer to do using the bandsaw, rather than my table saw. My thoughts being I am more likely to do a safer operation on the bandsaw if it is user friendly, and less likely to utilize it to its full potential if it requires brute force adjustments ;)

I haven't written Tim or Laguna yet, sometimes I enjoy these little puzzles in life, and also like seeing what we can come up with. I would prefer a solution from real world operators, than one that is a "quick fix" on paper so to speak. (Not speaking ill of engineers by any means, I am studying to be one)

I have considered using the bathroom scale approach, however I don't have one LOL, I have also considered using a spring to surround the gas assist. this might be an option, however judging by the amount of travel required and the fact that springs tend to increase in force as the are compressed to their limit, it might make it really hard to get it to 0 degrees or impossible to 15 degrees left. so that would limit the saw, in which case I should just wrestle with it.

If only I had a compressor system and a pneumatic cylinder to attatch (now that would be Over engineering :rolleyes:)

[Wes Grass]

Pneumatics are no good, they bounce around too much. Hydraulic would be better, but what you really want is a linear actuator with a ball screw. Add a rotary encoder to the trunnion for a direct digital readout of table angle and we'd all be really jealous.

And why they didn't use a worm gear for this I'll never know.

Actually, I know exactly why ... it costs more.

[Rick Markham]

Mike I like your idea of an extension table, that's creative and something I hadn't thought of. Unfortunately the split in the table to slide the blade in and out of is on that side of the table. I would love to spend the money on a cast iron extension table, that would be a better than perfect solution. It would probably take a full sheet of MDF to counter balance the leverage though lol. Like I said I am probably making this way more than it needs to be... block and tackle from the ceiling? :D

[AJ Quinter]

Wouldn't the simple solution be to shift the fence as close to the pivot point as possible before you adjust the angle of the table. Once the angle is set, lock the table down well and then slide the fence back out of the way. This requires a few steps, but I don't adjust my table all that often anyway.

[Mike Archambeau]

Rick;

Have you seen the FWW video on testing 14 inch band saws: http://www.finewoodworking.com/ToolGuide/ToolGuideArticle.aspx?id=29458

At about 2.5 minutes into the video, they show a resaw sled where they add weights to pull the wood thru the blade. Perhaps you could rig up some weights like this on the end of your table to see how much of a counterweight you need?

[Josh Bowman]

Rick,
Congrats, I have the 14SUV with the drift master and mobility kit. I absolutely love it! Resawing is no problem with this beast. I agree the table is heavy with the drift master on it, but I have found the rack and pinion table tilt is enough to over come it if you move the fence closer to the blade (but far enough away to keep it from hitting):eek:. No to your question, could you disconnect the shocks and use a fishing scale to help lift the table while you turn the rack and pinion. Seems to me you tell the person pulling the scale to pull more and more until the adjusting knob moves to your liking. Would that not be the poundage needed? Like I said though, I just move mine closer to the center and it's good enough for the few times I move off of flat.
You'll need that dust collector, it will surprise you how much dust that thing will kick from the dust shoots. Good luck.

[Rick Markham]

AJ and Josh, I agree that moving the fence as close to the blade is the easiest answer. However even when it is as close to the blade as possible it is still alot of work to twist the knob to get the table adjusted. (Remember the cast iron table is even bigger on the 16 than on the 14) I like the fishing scale idea, I had thought about it too, to get a reasonably accurate one with that scale of weight on it isn't a cheap item either. (gotta love fishing, it is one of my other expensive hobbies :D) But I won't discount that idea either, it might be the most reasonable way to get the reading! I guess I could hook my Penn International reel with 60Lbs of drag to it and see How much easier it is to crank, that would give me a reasonably good idea too.

I guess one of my main concerns (on a personal level) is years of being a chef, and years of working as a meat cutter in a meat packing plant (brutal job cutting beef) my wrists are not those of a 33 year olds anymore. Granted they work like they are supposed to most of the time. But I try to be pretty careful not to tweak or reinjure them. (Carpal tunnel is no fun)

I talked to Tim at Laguna today, and they are going to discuss it and help figure out a solution. I appreciate all of the ideas, I think ya'll are coming up with some good ones! The best solution is out there it's just a matter of finding it.

Mike, that's a pretty interesting resaw sled!

I still think the easiest solution is changing the tube, anyone know a formula to figure out the force required when applied to the vector of an angle to do Work of a known mass in an arc with a known radius? (been a few years since my last physics class) Then I would only need to know the weight or a good guess of the weight of that side of the table and the fence.

[Thomas love]

Rick , Very nice bandsaw , I have had a Laguna for 10 years.

For the amount of time you will tilt that table, The Gas tube, should you change it would not last that long. Seems like it would be simple enough to clamp a board to the top to get some added leverage while turning the handle.

Tom

[John Coloccia]

I have to be honest that the whole gas strut approach to this seems like a really poor solution to a simple problem. The simple solution is to have a rack and pinion hand crank like on my Grizzly.

http://cdn3.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg500/g/g0514x2_det1.jpg

Note that it's lifting at the proper spot (where the mechanical advantage is greatest). Cranking at the trunion is arguably the worst place to put the mechanism, and adding a gas strut to compensate seems like an after thought.

Maybe you can retrofit something like this. I hope Laguna can figure something out for you. It's encouraging that there are still some companies out there that will work with you for problems like this.