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Dan Mages
04-25-2010, 7:39 PM
After 9 years and 118k miles, my PT Cruiser blew a head gasket and has some internal engine damage. Although the rest of the car is in great shape, it is just not cost effective to repair or replace the engine. I will be calling the local high schools to see if any of them still have shop classes and donate the car.

Now for the new one. We have narrowed it down to the Ford Edge, Honda CR-V, and Chevrolet Equinox. I was wondering what advice, tips and tricks people have when it comes to haggling with the sales people at the dealerships. What is the best way to get a good price?

Thanks!

Dan

Jim Becker
04-25-2010, 8:01 PM
Dan, research everything before you walk in the door, including what your target price should be. Edmunds.com can be helpful as well as other sites out there. And get to a cash price first with no talk of financing, etc.

Paul Atkins
04-25-2010, 8:02 PM
A Honda is just getting broken in at 118k. I just retired my Mazda at 230k. If I had a 9 year old car I'd think I was in the fast lane. Not much help here though.

Joe Pelonio
04-25-2010, 8:07 PM
Hondas are still so popular that the dealers are not likely to knock much, if anything off the price, even on used ones. A friend just bought a 2007 CRV and got it for $24,500, the asking price, was $25,000. She worked on them for nearly a week. Equinox and Edge are surprisingly well rated, and much more likely to get you a deal. The end of the month is coming up, I suggest Thursday or Friday when they are anxious to increase the sales figures for April. Remember there are many dealers to go to, and be prepared to walk out if they won't give you the price that you want.
I'd start out at $4-5k under sticker. if they show you the invoice, remember they never pay that much, they get discounts for quantity and other incentives. You should be able to get about $3,000 off on those.
Good luck.

Michael Schwartz
04-25-2010, 8:24 PM
. get to a cash price first with no talk of financing, etc.

Agreed, if you go in and tell them your looking for a 350 a month payment and thats your budget, they will figure out a way to get 350 per month out of you. They might also reduce a monthly payment, while tacking on additional terms/months onto the loan which is something else to watch out for.

The bottom line is any discussion of financing, or payment before they give you a cash price will only likely give them the advantage, and talk of financing is their largest bargaining chip.

If you can secure your own financing.

Be aware of bait and switch techniques from a purchase, to a lease.

And finally never discuss your budget, how much you can afford, what kind of payments you can make, or how much you are looking to spend. Never let them know if you are attached to a car, or that you feel that you must have it. Give them the impression you could just walk out the door at any time, if they don't work hard for you and give you a reason to buy from them. A good salesman is well paid as well so they won't go home hungry that night if you take up there whole day without buying anything.

Dave Schreib
04-25-2010, 9:23 PM
I love having a new car but always hated dealing with car salesman. My brother in law was one of them and sold dodges. When he was still alive, all we drove were dodges because we could get them though him and never had to talk to anyone else at the dealership. Even if we didnt love the car, we bought it off of him because the idea of having to deal with a salesman elsewhere was so distaseful.

I would echo the advice of others. First decide what a fair price is by doing internet research. Then when you walk into the dealership tell them that you arent going to talk about loans, leases, terms, payments or anything else until you are happy with the purchase price of the car. Tell them you might pay cash, you might borrow from your credit union, you might borrow from them, you might lease - you dont know and you wont talk about it until you have settled on a purchase price.

They will fight you on that, but there are several thousand Ford, chevy and honda dealerships out there who would love to have that conversation with you if the local dealership wont.

The purchase price is the biggest variable. Once you have that set, you can say "show me the lease deal from your best leasing company" - they will have access to many of them. Or, if you are buying it, find the best car loan rate around (your bank or credit union) then tell them they need to beat that.

You have the upper hand because you can always walk out and go to the dealership 5 miles down the road. They dont want that. And you'll really have the upper hand if you go in knowing what a fair price is, and refuse to go beyond that.

As for cars, I personally believe that GM will be extinct in 5-7 years, so I would avoid them. I have an Impala (company car) and it is really poorly made. Warning lights are always going off for no reason, breaks and alignment are a constant problem and it has a small touch of rust after only 3 years, 60K. The company got a good price on it, but I will bet they have $2K in repairs invested in it. Add that to the purchase price and your probably up to the cost of a better made Ford or honda. This car will be scrap metal before it ever sees 100K miles.

Good luck.

Stephen Tashiro
04-25-2010, 9:35 PM
I once read a book called "Don't Get Taken Every Time" by Remar Sutton about game of buying cars. I think there is a recent edition. However, it would probably make you paranoid.

Edit: As I recall, one piece of advice in the book was to ask people who lend money or insure cars about the price you intend to pay. They don't want to get a car that is overvalued as collateral and they won't pay you more than it's worth to replace it.

Jerry Bruette
04-25-2010, 9:59 PM
Dan

We bought a 2007 CR-V in Oct. of 2007, the dealers were taking orders for the 2008's. One dealer wouldn't drop the price at all and 2 others did drop some.

I did one of those "build your vehicle" things on either Edmunds or KBB and submitted it, then waited... pretty soon the dealers were e-mailing me with prices. Never saw the salesman until the day we picked up the vehicle, everything was done over the internet or with a couple phone calls. It was a pretty good experience.

From what I've read the internet sales people can cut you a better price than the people on the showroom floor.

LOML loves the CR-V, she's the main driver, and it's held it's value. I think you'd like one.

Good Luck
Jerry

Glen Butler
04-25-2010, 11:29 PM
More recently it seems that dealership are using "programs" to add value to a car. i.e. Gap insurance, theft protection, additional protection measurements, such as undercarriage coating or paint protectant. Do buy into any of this crap and make sure they don't have some program that you are automatically enrolled in by buying a car from them.

Gap insurance cost the dealer about a third of what they offer it to you for. Or rather they mark it up 300 percent. It is not transferrable if you refinance your car.

One company near me has a theft deterrent plan that they automatically tack on to the purchase price unless you dispute it. In my younger years I was tricked into accepting one of these tactics. Question everything and stand your ground.

The company from which I bought my most recent car is very honest. Long story, but they are honest. They told me flat out that the undercarriage and paint protectant is garbage and recommended gap if nothing at all. I can see from a financers point of few they you need to protect against the immediate depretiation that will happen to the car, but of course gap is marked up 300%. You can get gap from places other than the dealership. Shop around.

Pat Germain
04-25-2010, 11:42 PM
I'm pretty good at negotiating with car salesman. I have more patience then they do and I know pretty much all their tricks. I'm the customer from Hell.

However, these days, I think you're better off going through a buying service. Costco, Sams Club and most credit unions will connect you directly with a fleet salesman. You tell him exactly what kind of car you want. He tells you the price, which is almost always better than what you can get dealing with the sales clowns on floor. But there's no haggling on that price. Other suggestions:

- Don't pay for any extras. No paint protection. No extended warranties. No rustproofing. No fabric protection. No nothing. They're mostly worthless with a crazy markup. If you really want one of these things, offer them about 1/4 of what they're asking. As I understand it, they can sell you an extra for half the regular price and still make money. A Toyota dealer near my house wanted my daughter pay $800 for paint protection. Although the sales clown insisted it was a valuable product applied at the factory, in fact it's a $25 bottle of stuff they wipe on the paint with a rag. Whoopee.

- Unless you've already got a killer loan, it's OK to see what kind of loan the dealer can get you. Many manufacturers are offering 0% financing. The dealers get a nice kickback when they sell a loan so they're typically motivated.

- Completely ignore "invoice price". It's meaningless and whatever the dealer wants it to be. Find the actual price the dealer paid for the car; dealer cost. You can get this information for about $14 from Consumer Reports. And, regardless of what the dealers might say, those numbers are accurate.

- If you do try to deal with the sales clowns on the floor, watch out for the, "I can give you a price only if you are commited to buying the car today" or "That price is only good today" routine. If they pull that crap, head for the door. There are plenty of other dealers who won't insult you with that line. You shouldn't have to buy right then and there to work out a deal on a car.

- No matter how you feel about American cars, the sad fact is they still have a low resale. One of my coworkers recently got some very minor hail damage on his late-model, low-mileage Malibu. The value was so low, his insurance company totalled the car. Another coworker had similar situations with two Saturns he owned. Minor damage and totalled by the insurance company.

** Based on my posts here about cars, one might get the impression I'm biased against "American" cars. The fact is, I love American cars overall. I'm a big Ford fan. But until very recently, Ford GM and Chrysler weren't offering anything I'd want to buy. And the dealers have treated me poorly. That's my take.

Bryan Morgan
04-26-2010, 12:51 AM
Save yourself the trouble and just use AAA or some kind of fleet services. Otherwise, go in there in a bad mood (if you have a cold thats even better) because it acts like armor against all the sales peoples' BS. Know what you want to pay and don't pay more than that. If the dealer doesn't want to work with you, leave and go to another dealer. I've been told if you get the car for the price you want and the sales people are mad, you've done a good job. :)

Don't feel bad for them. One of my best friends went to a sort of "pre-class" to sell cars and the first thing they asked was something to the effect of "if you knew the person you are selling the car to would be crushed and their credit ruined if they bought it, would you still try and sell them the car?" If you said yes you had what it takes.... he didn't get the job...

Sometimes the extended warranty isn't so bad... We bought my wife's old Chrysler through AAA and they gave me the extended warranty, supposedly at their price, which was only like an extra 400 bucks. Worked out nice because this car made me swear off Dodge/Chrysler products for the rest of my life. The last thing we took it in for (well, a pile of things actually) was over $3000 and the factory warranty had already expired. We wouldn't have had to pay anything to fix it but we ended up trading it in while it still had a little bit of trade in value...

Which brings me to another trick... get a carmax trade in offer and take it to the dealer with you. They only wanted to give us $2500 for the Chrysler until I whipped out the carmax offer at $4000. The dealer wasn't too happy about that but they matched it anyway.

Dan Mages
04-26-2010, 8:45 AM
A Honda is just getting broken in at 118k. I just retired my Mazda at 230k. If I had a 9 year old car I'd think I was in the fast lane. Not much help here though.

I was actually surprised when my car died on me. It has been running smoothly and is in otherwise in perfect shape. I was hoping o get 2-4 more years out of it.

On the flip side, I have a bias against Hondas and Toyotas. They have always been efficient, reliable appliances with no real soul or excitement. Car and Driver brings this up in many of its reviews. Here are a few highlights.


The Camry is a fine vehicle that’s about as exciting as a ham and cheese sandwich made on white bread: bland but it does the job (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/08q3/2009_toyota_camry-review)

Regarding the CR-V: Fun? What's fun got to do with? (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/07q4/2008_honda_cr-v_ex-l_4wd-short_take_road_test)

I will look into Costco pricing a little further. I also looked at AAA, but I need to drive up to MA to get the discount, that is just too far. LOML works for GE, so I am sure we have an S-plan through them for all of the major brands.

Extended warranties are a good negotiation point. They are a reasonable insurance plan for future plans. I had one on my PT and it paid for itself after my multifunction switch and the AC hose failed.

I'm sorry to say, but I also agree with comments about sales scum... er reps. One of my biggest pet peeves is when they don't know what they are selling. I find that the long term service you get from the dealership is tied to the hiring and training of the sales staff.

Dan

Dave Haughs
04-26-2010, 9:26 AM
I find shopping for a car fun. No reason to rush it. Like said before, research ahead of time then go in for some test drives. Just tell them you're looking at several models and before you do any paperwork or haggling you want to drive them all. Then take them all on very long test drives and see what you like best, then see what fits your budget best and determine what you are willing to spend. Then tell them. The beauty is you can always walk away if it's not what you want or if it's too much. It's just a game, it can be fun. Look into used too, autotrader and ebay are great resourses to find things low mileage and near by.

The new equinox is VERY nice. GM build quality is not what is used to be.

Walt Nicholson
04-26-2010, 9:37 AM
If you are leaning toward any of the Ford products, you can go to forddirect.com, build the exact vehicle you want and it will show you the list price and the dealer invoice amount plus any current rebates. All domestic dealers pay the invoice amount but receive a cash payment from the manufacturers of 3% of the invoice amount. This is called "holdback". It was started many years ago to help dealers pay interest charges on the vehicles sitting on the lot during slow periods. Some dealers will sell a vehicle for "invoice" and be satisfied with the holdback, some want a fixed amount over invoice. The Ford site seems more accurate than some of the others (KBB, Edmunds, etc.) as they include freight and other charges that are sometines overlooked. Keep in mind the the store you are dealing with is the one you expect to take care of you if problems occur and needs to make some profit to be able to do that adequately. If you start out armed with the correct price info at least you get to make the call as to what you think is fair for both sides. If you have a small down payment or little or no equity in your trade the GAP program (if they will sell it at a decent price) is not a bad idea. If the car is totaled in an accident most insurances only pay based on "book" values. If you owe more than it's worth (especially in the first 2 or 3 years) you have to come up with the difference out of your pocket. Like everyone else said, get all the facts first and it will help you sort through all the BS. (that doesn's stand for "band saw". ;)

Chris Kennedy
04-26-2010, 9:51 AM
We had a family member who sold cars for a while. We asked him about what would be considered a reasonable price for a car, and he said around invoice plus 10%. We haven't bought many cars, but we have found that formula usually to be reasonable.

Chris

John Pratt
04-26-2010, 10:20 AM
Research, research, research. When I bought my last car I did research for about five months before I even walked onto the lot. I think I knew more about the car and value than the dealer. I also question everything when it comes to the paperwork. One example was an additional cost tacked on by the dealer as an "advertising" fee. I asked and they told me it was standard practice to include these costs. I told them advertising is part of the cost of doing business and I would not be paying for it. In addition, I told them I was the one advertising for them at no charge by driving a car from thier lot. In the end, I got an additional $400 off by explaining they either give me a discount or remove their dealer logo/name from the rear of the vehicle (which would have meant replacing the bumber since it was "pinned" on and would have left holes). Afterall, I am buying a Ford, not a specific dealer Ford.

Chuck Wintle
04-26-2010, 10:25 AM
The new equinox is VERY nice. GM build quality is not what is used to be.
By that you mean it is improving?

Horton Brasses
04-26-2010, 2:15 PM
It really isn't that hard or scary anymore. Drive all three vehicles, determine the one you want. Then get the list/cost sheets from Edmonds or any other car website. Determine, as best you can, how much over or under said invoice price the the car is selling for and see what you can do. Don't buy any extras (warranties, gap, undercoating, etc), don't deal with financing until you have an agreed upon price. If there is special financing (0% or some such thing) or a rebate determine which will save you the most over the term. The agreed upon price should not include the rebates. That comes after and has nothing do with the dealer's price/cost for the car. Remember, the salesperson typically is earning between $50 and $100 commission on a new car-they aren't making a killing-contrary to popular belief. Used cars are where they make money.

I would add one other thing: 2, 3, 5, and 10 years down the road you aren't going to remember what you paid for the car so get the car you truly like the best (and can afford). For example, if you buy the CR-V because its a few bucks less than the Edge, but you liked the Edge better, you will not be happy in the long run. We own vehicles for such a long time that $500-1000 one way or the other over 5+ years really doesn't matter budget wise. What matters is you have a vehicle you like and works for you.

Just my .02

Greg Cuetara
04-26-2010, 4:02 PM
Dan,
I was just reading an article today regarding car pricing etc. The article said to check out www.truecar.com You put in your zip and it will give you the low price the average price etc. and what is a good price for the vehicle. I compared it to the vehicle I bought the end of last year and it seemed to be fairly accurate.

Also, if you are looking at the Chevy and you belong to a credit union you can get dealer pricing or something like that which is about the lowest they can sell the vehicle for.

I know I saved about 3 or 4k just because I am a member of a credit union. The dealers are not all upfront with the deals and programs offered so do your research beforehand on all different makes etc.

Greg

Brian Elfert
04-26-2010, 5:27 PM
We had a family member who sold cars for a while. We asked him about what would be considered a reasonable price for a car, and he said around invoice plus 10%. We haven't bought many cars, but we have found that formula usually to be reasonable.


The dealership must have loved that family member if he/she sold cars for 10% above invoice. I used a Toyota Matrix as an example. The difference between the invoice and MSRP is less than 10%!

In general, I haven't paid much, if any, above invoice for vehicles. The exception was the VW Golf diesel I bought. This was back when $1.80 was considered highway robbery for gasoline. Gas prices had fallen back to $1.40 a gallon so the dealer was giving a discount off MSRP. I tried to buy one when gas was $1.80 and no discount at all off MSRP.

Pat Germain
04-26-2010, 5:55 PM
I want to state again the word "invoice" in meaningless when it comes to buying a new car. Dealers want us to believe "invoice price" is the cost of the car. It's not. Invoice is whatever the dealer wants it to be. It can be cost, plus destination, plus dealer prep, plus marketing/advertising fee, plus paint protection, plus market value fee, etc. Thus, an invoice price can be close to or the same as MSRP.

To get the actual dealer cost of a car, you have to go to a reliable source like Consumer Reports. They will sell you a list with the actual cost of the car as well as all options and option packages. I think Edmunds is close, but not as accurate as Consumer Reports.

And Brian makes a good point. If a car is particularly popular, you're typically going to pay MSRP or even more. That's where the "market value" fee comes in.

Although new car sales clowns will get about $100 commission for selling a car, that's not all they get. If the real money was in selling used cars, they would all want to do so and not bother with new cars. The big money comes from the extras. They get a large kickback for selling extra add-ons to the car like extended warranties and paint protection. They also get a commission for selling a loan, gap insurance, credit life, oil change packages and anything extra they slip into the paperwork. If a sales clown can sell a customer all of that stuff, he's making major coin from one sale.

As pointed out previously, the dealer also gets a "holdback" from the manufacturer when they sell the car. Therefore, they can literally sell a car for cost and still make money if it hasn't been sitting on the lot burning interest for awhile.

Brian Elfert
04-26-2010, 7:33 PM
There are plenty of free places to get invoice prices for new cars. Ford even gives the invoice price on their website. The invoice price should never vary from dealer to dealer.

One will never the true cost of their car to the dealer. I'm not sure the dealers really knows either with all the various incentives from the manufacturer to the dealer. I believe there are laws stating manufacturers have to sell to all dealers at the same cost, but there are seem to be numerous incentives that larger dealers are more likely to get.

Pat Germain
04-26-2010, 7:39 PM
There are plenty of free places to get invoice prices for new cars. Ford even gives the invoice price on their website. The invoice price should never vary from dealer to dealer.

One will never the true cost of their car to the dealer. I'm not sure the dealers really knows either with all the various incentives from the manufacturer to the dealer. I believe there are laws stating manufacturers have to sell to all dealers at the same cost, but there are seem to be numerous incentives that larger dealers are more likely to get.

Ford can give invoice prices on their web site but it doesn't mean a blasted thing. Invoice is not cost.

Yes, you can get the true dealer cost of car. You just go to the Consumer Reports web site, choose the car or cars you're interested in, and order the cost sheet. This is more accurate than the free web sites.

There are no laws dictating what a manufacturer can charge a dealer for a car. Dealers that sell a lot of cars can get priority for popular models and other goodies. How much of a discount they can get on actual cars, I don't know. But don't expect a dealer to pass on a discount unless you really haggle for it.

Brian Ashton
04-26-2010, 8:45 PM
I think I knew more about the car and value than the dealer.

It's almost as if car salesmen are like the village witch doctor - their tactics and such are shrouded in mystery and magic.

The reality is you did know more about those things. The dealer isn't concerned with your knowledge or intimidated by it. His only concerns are what he makes out of the sale and doesn't end up being the worst salesman that month and gets fired for it- nothing more. They don't study the prices of cars or most likely keep up with the latest trade in prices, or even know what the best and worst cars are, they have valuers and other experts that do that sort of stuff. Their job is to convince you that you will buy that car, that you want that car... Remember most if not all agreements have to be ok'd by the manager, not the salesman. That should tell you something about their knowledge and authority. If they don't like what you want to pay they're more than happy to let you go because there will be a sucker alone soon. They may act like they're concerned... but that's the difference between a good salesman and a bad one. I highly doubt that many actually get mad either. They certainly want you to think they're fuming over a sale... If they did get all worked up all the time they wouldn't last a month in that business.

Paul Ryan
04-26-2010, 10:05 PM
Dont worry about invoice or any other stuff like that. As others have said research and research. Get more than one price from different sellers. It doesnt mean you have to buy it from the cheapest but get different prices so you know what the going rate is for the vehicle. Dont pay sticker no matter what.

As others have said don't talk about financing, trades, or any of that stuff get a cash price. After that you can talk about financing. Get a different price on financing as well. On a new car the dealer may have the best financing deal but sometime they will quote you a higher rate than they have to, they make more money on that as well. Lastly don't necessarily buy from the cheapest. See if you can get them to through in services. Some dealers have 36k maintenance included, that is a big plus.

Experience after the sale is just as important as the sale. Some dealers when you are out the door deal is over. Others you will always be helped out because you bought from them.

Kevin Groenke
04-26-2010, 10:14 PM
We bought our last 3 cars through our credit union. I did A LOT of comparison shopping and we did quite well that way without any hand-shaking, desk-sitting or walking down to the next dealership.

Check out the Element when you look at the CR-V. It's a rather quirky vehicle but if you want a real UTILITARIAN vehicle, it might fit your needs. I've had dirty MTN bikes, 240 beer bottles, a yard of mulch and the in-laws in mine in just the past week.

-kg

Dan Mages
04-27-2010, 7:11 AM
Yesterday we saw the Mazda 5 and Jetta SportWagen. The Mazda 5's middle row was too light to safely place my daughter's car sear in without touching the drivers seat, so that one is out. I liked the Jetta Wagon TDI, but wifey was luke warm about it. It is a deisel wagon that gets 35-45 mpg... Not bad! Tonight we see the frontrunners, CR-V and Flex. If we are not immediately taken by either, we will also try the Equinox.

I am pretty sure SWMBO will "want" the CR-V. I will give it to her in the end as her Law School grauation gift.

Dan

Pat Germain
04-27-2010, 8:39 AM
I liked the Jetta Wagon TDI, but wifey was luke warm about it. It is a deisel wagon that gets 35-45 mpg... Not bad!

I drive a 2003 Jetta I bought new. It's not the TDI. It's the 1.8 turbo. But it's been a great car. A friend of mine has a Jetta TDI and it's also been a great car. I have heard the TDI Jetta maintenance requirements are a bit expensive. You might want to check into that with the new TDI Jettas. If you have to replace the timing belt every 50K miles, that can really eat up your savings in fuel.

Paul Ryan
04-27-2010, 9:34 AM
Diesel maintenance in the long run will be more than a gas but it will usually be made up for by increased fuel economy, but again diesel has been running more than gasoline now. I am not much of a volkswagon fan but my next car may be a jetta TDI due to the fuel economy. I average a little over 1k miles a week for my job.

Jim Rimmer
04-27-2010, 10:26 AM
I'm kinda torn about going in with an adversarial attitude towards the salesman. We bought a new Honda Accord a few years ago and it was the worst experience I've ever had and hated the salesman afterwards, felt like I probably got screwed, and after having the car for a while, hated it, too. I'll never buy another Honda.

But, just bought a new F150 and it was a pleasant experience and I got what I think was a fair deal (aprrox. 25% off sticker). I would go there again and recommend the dealership to friends.

In additon to all the good advice already posted about research, price knowledge, etc. I would add:

1. Find out if the company you work for has any agreements (mine got me another $1K off).
2. What kind of deals does the dealer make on financing. I was going to pay cash but got another discount if I financed through FoMoCo. I'll pay it off in 90 days (per dealers request; was told they get backcharged $1K if it gets paid off sooner).
3. Check credit union deals. Also, find out if they are having a promo week coming up.

As far as brand names, I have about had it with Japanese brands. Toyota's got all kinds of problems and my experience with Honda has been too bad for words. (Dealership, form/fit/function, quality) I have always driven Fords (wife branches out to other brands) and have never been disappointed. And they are the only US company that didn't take a bailout.

Pat Germain
04-27-2010, 10:37 AM
I'm kinda torn about going in with an adversarial attitude towards the salesman.

I used to be torn about sales clowns. But I think I have good reason to refer to the typical, everyday car salesman as a clown. Consider:

- He wears goofy clothes
- He puts on a fake smile
- He performs a rehearsed routine
- He uses crude fakery and performs simple illusions
- He rides around in a company-provided car (although, it may or may not be a tiny little car)
- He charms and amuses many people. But he also scares the wits out of some people

Now, if that's not a clown...

Rick Prosser
04-27-2010, 10:52 AM
If you take along your significant other when shopping and talking to the salesperson, be sure you are in agreement on what you want, what information you are going to provide, and your walk away price. (and maybe who is going to do the talking...:D)

John Schreiber
04-27-2010, 2:09 PM
. . . They have always been efficient, reliable appliances with no real soul or excitement. . . . Dan
That's exactly what I'm looking for in a car. I have my own soul and excitement. No car could provide that to me. (Now some tools could, but that's different.)

Horton Brasses
04-27-2010, 2:22 PM
That's exactly what I'm looking for in a car. I have my own soul and excitement. No car could provide that to me. (Now some tools could, but that's different.)

We have an 05 CR-V, which we bought new in 05. Now has over 90,000 miles. It is a perfect appliance. It never squeaks, breaks, or complains. It just goes, and it gets very good fuel economy in mixed driving. It is duller than dishwater though, and I don't like it one bit. But that's just me and I'm a car geek. I want a car to do something very very good, even at the expense of doing a bunch of things satisfactorily. That one thing can be any number of different things, handling well, snow driving, cargo capacity, looks, whatever. But something about it has to be special. You won't go wrong with the Honda.

BTW: I have read a whole lot of stuff about the new Equinox. The real world MPG figures being reported are nowhere near the sticker numbers. the 4 cylinder AWD drive models are actually getting about 18mpg, not 30+ highway and 24 city. That said, it is pretty universally praised for driving dynamics, space, looks, etc.

Bryan Morgan
04-27-2010, 4:35 PM
I'm kinda torn about going in with an adversarial attitude towards the salesman.

They aren't torn about extracting the most amount of money they can from you and using lies and underhanded tactics to do it... ;)

Bob Weis
04-27-2010, 7:28 PM
I drive a 2008 F-350 for work my wife bought an edge and I have to fight her to drive it it seems very well put together, roomy for me at 6'3" 275 lb and is it a ball to drive were getting about 28 on trips 24-25 in town 23 rush hour It has the V-6

David Gregory
04-27-2010, 7:36 PM
After 9 years and 118k miles, my PT Cruiser blew a head gasket and has some internal engine damage. Although the rest of the car is in great shape, it is just not cost effective to repair or replace the engine. I will be calling the local high schools to see if any of them still have shop classes and donate the car.

Now for the new one. We have narrowed it down to the Ford Edge, Honda CR-V, and Chevrolet Equinox. I was wondering what advice, tips and tricks people have when it comes to haggling with the sales people at the dealerships. What is the best way to get a good price?

Thanks!

Dan

Not cost effective? Average of $20,000.00+ for a "new" car vs fixing the current one. If the PT has been serving your needs for the last 9 years, where's the cost effectiveness of going in debt several times over the repair costs of the current vehicle. Considering the current economic climate and the real probability of things getting worse, I'd say fix the old one. Then again, I'm a cheapskate according to some and frugal according to others. YMMV

Pat Germain
04-27-2010, 8:08 PM
Lots of PT Cruiser owners love their vehicles. But PT Cruisers aren't known for longevity. It would be a real bummer to fork over lots of cash to repair a blown head gasket only to suffer a fried transmission a few months later. Other things that might go south include the fuel injectors, fuel pump, rack and pinion, struts and CV joints.

Dave Lehnert
04-27-2010, 8:54 PM
A lot of good info above. I will just add my 2 bits worth.

- Have a 97 F150. Very well known to have to replace the engine at
75K miles :eek: I did replace the the engine for a cost of $3, 750.
I thought it was crazy at first to sink that much into a 12 year old truck. But where was I going to find a good used truck for less than $4,000?
Buy a new truck and I would have payments for the next 5 years.
Very glad I did replace. Engine runs great. Under warranty for 3 years. And no car payment.

- Had a Ford employee tell me that any dealer should sell you a car at invoice or $100 above.
One post above said 10% over invoice.:confused:. I am no car expert but work in retail. That seems way expensive for a high ticket item.

-I went into a dealer once looking for a used car. I told him what I was looking for and what I wanted to spend. He called me back next day with a car that was better than I ever thought I would get. Turned out to be a good experience. Don't be afraid to try it.

- Go in talking about the extended warranty. when you go to do the paper work tell them to drop it. They make so much off the warranty if they think you are going to buy it you will get a lower car price.

- Deal with the interest rate as well. I got like 3% less than first offered. Took out a loan for 5 years at a lower rate but they figured how much to send in to pay off in 3 years.

Dan Mages
04-27-2010, 8:56 PM
Not cost effective? Average of $20,000.00+ for a "new" car vs fixing the current one. If the PT has been serving your needs for the last 9 years, where's the cost effectiveness of going in debt several times over the repair costs of the current vehicle. Considering the current economic climate and the real probability of things getting worse, I'd say fix the old one. Then again, I'm a cheapskate according to some and frugal according to others. YMMV

It comes down to whether or not it is worth spending $1500-3000 on a car with a resale value of $3000 if the engine was working properly. Is it better to spend the money on repairing the car, or using it as a down payment? Even if I do make the repairs, what guarantee do I have that something else might go wrong a few months from now?

Dan

Tom Godley
04-27-2010, 9:27 PM
Well it looks like you have expanded your search!

I have been looking to replace a Sable Station Wagon - I only mention this because you speak of liking the VW TDI. In my search I was surprised at how nice the Subaru Impreza 5 door is as well as the Mazda 3 Hatchback. The Mazda is a little more money but they have 0% for five years making the two cars about the same price. The Mazda has a little more zip to it but the Subaru has 4WD. They both had a lot of room, get great reviews and have high resale value. The new Impreza is the size of the old Outback.

With the relatively low miles you drive each year -- Have you given any thought to a certified used car? I have bought quite a few low mile Lexus vehicles this way and have been extremely pleased -- and it unbelievable how much they are still worth when you go to get rid of them. They have 1.9% currently -- just got an e-mail !

Dan Mages
04-28-2010, 8:18 AM
Well it looks like you have expanded your search!

I have been looking to replace a Sable Station Wagon - I only mention this because you speak of liking the VW TDI. In my search I was surprised at how nice the Subaru Impreza 5 door is as well as the Mazda 3 Hatchback. The Mazda is a little more money but they have 0% for five years making the two cars about the same price. The Mazda has a little more zip to it but the Subaru has 4WD. They both had a lot of room, get great reviews and have high resale value. The new Impreza is the size of the old Outback.

With the relatively low miles you drive each year -- Have you given any thought to a certified used car? I have bought quite a few low mile Lexus vehicles this way and have been extremely pleased -- and it unbelievable how much they are still worth when you go to get rid of them. They have 1.9% currently -- just got an e-mail !

If my car were to last until this fall, I would also look at the new Ford Focus and Mini Countryman. Both have been getting some great early buzz. The Mazda3 is a nice car, but the MazdaSpeed 3 is a riot... as long as you don't mind the Pokeman grin on the front.

We have decided that the CR-V and Ford Edge both meet our needs. We are comparing the features and trying to make a decision. I have requested rates from Costco and will use that as a basis for online bidding between dealerships.

Dan

Tom Godley
04-28-2010, 9:01 AM
Dan -- Good luck


I am with you on the Mazda front end -- what were they thinking.

Maybe they were looking at the current crop of Acura's and somehow decided they were good looking.

Carlos Alden
04-28-2010, 9:17 AM
I've had dirty MTN bikes, 240 beer bottles, a yard of mulch and the in-laws in mine in just the past week.

-kg

HA HA. All at the same time? That must have been a great party.

Carlos

Pat Germain
04-28-2010, 11:31 AM
We have decided that the CR-V and Ford Edge both meet our needs. We are comparing the features and trying to make a decision. I have requested rates from Costco and will use that as a basis for online bidding between dealerships.

I always feel obligated to add a plug for Subaru. Yes, it's Japanese. But Subaru is the unofficial Colorado State Car. There are old Subarus driving around everywhere in my state. The many Subaru owners all report glowing satisfaction. The MPG isn't quite as good as similar cars because all Subarus are all wheel drive. But the fuel economy is still pretty good.

Subarus have boxter engines, which I think it pretty cool. I drove a Subaru for a week a few years ago while my VW was in the shop. I really liked that Subaru!

Just an idea.

Horton Brasses
04-28-2010, 1:54 PM
Dan -- Good luck


I am with you on the Mazda front end -- what were they thinking.

Maybe they were looking at the current crop of Acura's and somehow decided they were good looking.

Supposedly the Japanese designers are trying to give the cars a more human like appearance and they decided on a smile.

As opposed to the snarly face of a Camaro or Mustang. Or the grim stern face of a Mercedes I guess.

Dan Mages
04-28-2010, 3:34 PM
I always feel obligated to add a plug for Subaru. Yes, it's Japanese. But Subaru is the unofficial Colorado State Car. There are old Subarus driving around everywhere in my state. The many Subaru owners all report glowing satisfaction. The MPG isn't quite as good as similar cars because all Subarus are all wheel drive. But the fuel economy is still pretty good.

Subarus have boxter engines, which I think it pretty cool. I drove a Subaru for a week a few years ago while my VW was in the shop. I really liked that Subaru!

Just an idea.
The Forester did not have enough space between the back seat and the front seats to safely strap in my daughter's car seat. The Outback was decent, but for one reason or another, we decided against it. The sales rep didn't help when he refused to let me put the stroller in the back to make sure it fit.

Quotes are trickling in... I will keep everyone informed.

Pat Germain
04-28-2010, 4:11 PM
The sales rep didn't help when he refused to let me put the stroller in the back to make sure it fit.

Talk about a sales clown!

Bryan Morgan
04-29-2010, 3:26 PM
Supposedly the Japanese designers are trying to give the cars a more human like appearance and they decided on a smile.

I thought this same thing when we bought our Mazda. There was an 08 model sitting there next to an 09. We went with the 08 because it didn't have the lights bugging out and a big smiley front end... :p

Dan Mages
05-01-2010, 7:54 AM
Welp. We pulled the trigger on a nicely appointed red Ford Edge. We splurged a bit and got one with a massive sunroof. It is LOML's graudation present for finishing law school, which she has been in since the day before we met. In the end, we used her employer's x-plan price minus 3500 in rebates. The MSRP is $35650 and our final price was approx $29500. It is being trucked in from NJ, so we should hopefully have it by the end of next week.

Financing is through Capitol One. The gave us a rate of 2.81%. I like their program where they give you a "check" to write to the dealer for the exact amount of the car, as long as it is in a specified range.

Dan

Dave Haughs
05-01-2010, 8:39 AM
Welp. We pulled the trigger on a nicely appointed red Ford Edge. We splurged a bit and got one with a massive sunroof. It is LOML's graudation present for finishing law school, which she has been in since the day before we met. In the end, we used her employer's x-plan price minus 3500 in rebates. The MSRP is $35650 and our final price was approx $29500. It is being trucked in from NJ, so we should hopefully have it by the end of next week.

Financing is through Capitol One. The gave us a rate of 2.81%. I like their program where they give you a "check" to write to the dealer for the exact amount of the car, as long as it is in a specified range.

Dan

Congrats. I've had a lot of Fords and have had good luck with them, I wish you the same. They build a good vehicle.

Car shopping considering car seats is certainly a different experience with different priorities :D

Van Huskey
05-02-2010, 2:02 AM
Subarus have boxter engines, which I think it pretty cool.

That would be a boxer engine as in pugilist. The cylinders punch toward each other in a flat plane. Porsche screwed the world with the Boxster driving the name from BOXer engine in a roadSTER now you hear boxster applied to all flat 4s.


Congrats on the new car Dan!


And for the archival value of the thread three things:

1. always be willing to walk away from ANY car and always walk away at least once, a well rehearsed plan with your spouse is also good, leave with one of you kinda interested but with the other liking the _____ car better across town, AND its cheaper too.

2. I always shop my salepeople by phone, I hate dealing with someone I don't like BUT if you walk onto the lot you will be the "up" for a salesman and will be more or less stuck with him or her, even if you request a different salesperson they will likely have to share the commision and lower motivation for making the sale. I do this by calling and asking if they have some esoteric model/color/engine etc model on the lot, the conversation that follows lets me gauge the salesperson. If they don't appeal to me I don't give them my info and just call back later and play salesperson roulette again. Since I started this I have never had to deal with a saleperson I didn't like.

3. Now the product you are buying and ALL its major competitors this way you can weed out the BS and you will "have to drive" the other cars (even if you already have) which gives you the out to leave and keep them on the hook.


I actually enjoy car shopping, I love the negotiation but I have done that for much of my professional career. You will never get a car for less than they are willing to sell it for but you can get it for the least they will sell it for.

Dan Mages
05-09-2010, 7:44 AM
Just a quick follow up.

We closed on a Ford Edge on Friday. They found one in stock that we liked down in Jersey, so we had them drive it up. My wife qualified for the X-plan supplier pricing through GE. Unfortunately, her college student/grad discount was not applicable to the X-plan price. So I asked about the original Costco pricing and it was compatible with the student discount. They would only get within $100 of the x-plan price, but with $500 off in "rebate", we ended up $400 in savings.

Sales clowns... For some odd reason, they refused to look into financing through Ford, which would have saved me an extra $1000 in rebates. Instead, they pushed Bank of America pretty hard. They originally came in at 4%ish, but I had accepted financing through Capital One at 2.81%. So the dealer went back to BoA and got them to match. I told them that was nice, but offered no incentive to switch. The sales clown went back to BoA and they offered 2.39%... Sold! I will, however, call ford on Monday to complain about their refusal to look into my Ford Credit application and see if I can get the rebate. Then, when we were closing the sales manager noticed that all of the bank paperwork and title paperwork was written in my wife's name, not as a joint ownership... Woops. It makes no difference to us, but a nice screw up on their behalf that will also be reported to Ford as leverage for my rebate check.

My daughter let the sales manager know what she thought of the business of selling cars by soiling her diaper in his small office. I then proceeded to change this rather smelly poo explosion on the floor of his office. Where else am I going to do it? :D

Here it is with 3 hours of cleaning, polishing and waxing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/DanMages/MISC/100_3106.jpg

Thanks for all of the help, everyone! It was a bit of a splurge to buy, but my wife has worked her tush off for nearly 5 years now taking law school at night and holding a full time corporate job. She earned this as a graduation present.

Dan

Pat Germain
05-09-2010, 9:24 AM
My daughter let the sales manager know what she thought of the business of selling cars by soiling her diaper in his small office. I then proceeded to change this rather smelly poo explosion on the floor of his office. Where else am I going to do it? :D

Oh, good golly, that's funny! Now I want to borrow a toddler just so I can change a dookie blast right in the office of some sales clown. :p

Another option might be, "OK, it's a deal as long as you change this didey here".

Howard Garner
05-09-2010, 10:45 AM
Since 2005 the TDI's are on a 100k mile timing belt replacement.
Find a good TDI mechanic and use him instead of the dealer.
See Fred's TDI club www.tdiclub.com for more info.

Howard Garner

Jeff Wright
05-09-2010, 12:00 PM
A decade ago, I came to the conclusion that trust would become the currency of the future. In a world with so much deceit, spin and self-interests, many of the institutions and principals we have lived by have deteriorated nearly to the point of comedy if the issues weren't so crucial to a healthy society.

I have served my life in the automobile business, first in service, then sales, then as a dealer-owner of a multi-franchise dealership, and finally - for my last 12 years prior to retirement - as a consultant to large and small dealer groups and major auto manufacturers in the US and 18 other countries. The industry as provided many benefits, one of the most significant being the opportunity to associate with many people from all walks of life. It was a wonderful lesson in human behavior.

But central to my approach was a client-centric perspective based on transparency and full disclosure. One of my creations was Discovery Selling, an automotive sales system that focused on providing the tools and information to permit the buyer to become fully informed and to facilitate their making a difficult decision less stressful and more rewarding.

Many of my fellow dealers thought I was nuts for choosing not to employ tricks and techniques designed to close the sale at the highest profit, or to offer outrageously customer-friendly programs such as a money-back guarantee for a used car purchase (which at the time I initiated it in the mid 1980s was unheard of), or a one-price no-haggle pricing approach that was created with integrity.

What my competitors failed to understand was that by creating an environment of trust and disclosure, suitable profits would come. And come they did. But so too did a large customer base of happy car buyers.

When I sold my interest in the retail business, I decided I wanted to work ON the system rather than IN the system - to improve the car buying experience. Time after time, I would become frustrated at dealership management and owners preferring to use deceptive practices. It was a joy to discover dealerships that subscribed to my own belief of earning the trust of their customers through an honest sales process.

Most, if not all, of the critical comments in this post are well founded. But there are quality dealerships out there - and all dealerships do need an adequate profit to provide for the growth of their business and to be able to attract and reward good people.

Trust is a powerful ally. To violate it by selecting what looks like the shorter path is a fool's choice, usually a person who is driven by fear rather than a sense of inner abundance.

And so ends today's sermon. :)

Happy Mother's Day to all you mothers!

Joe Pelonio
05-09-2010, 4:42 PM
Oh, good golly, that's funny! Now I want to borrow a toddler just so I can change a dookie blast right in the office of some sales clown. :p

Another option might be, "OK, it's a deal as long as you change this didey here".
Congrats Dan, that's a beauty.

Pat, I once had my potential trade held hostage close to 30 minutes when I refused to agree to the dealer's price, back when the younger two were 4 and 2. My wife came back from a walk with them and we decided to use them to our advantage, after noticing a candy machine. Chocolate bars were bought, then we told them "look at those shiny new cars, feel how smooth they are." We got our keys back really fast.

Brian Elfert
05-09-2010, 8:22 PM
Some dealers are great and others fit the sterotype most people think of when a car dealer is mentioned.

I went to one dealer to look at a vehicle. The salesman had taken the keys to my car so they could check it for trade in value. The salesman wouldn't return my keys so I could leave. I finally got out of there somehow. I did buy the vehicle later as they had the only one of thst model in the area and price was incredible.

I now carry an extra key with me when I go to a dealer in case that happens again. I figure I can come back later for my other key if they are jerking me around.

Jeff Wright
05-09-2010, 8:42 PM
. . . I went to one dealer to look at a vehicle. The salesman had taken the keys to my car so they could check it for trade in value. The salesman wouldn't return my keys so I could leave. I finally got out of there somehow . . . . I now carry an extra key with me when I go to a dealer in case that happens again. I figure I can come back later for my other key if they are jerking me around.

If I were a customer and that happened to me, I think I'd call the police from the showroom (Another good reason for cell phones!). Believe me, that would get the attention of such bazaar (and bozo) salespeople/managers/dealers. Often, new inexperienced salespeople, hoping to make a living wage, are intimidated by borderline felon managers who have little regard for either their customers or their sales staff. All behavior styles flow down from the dealer/owner.

Pat Germain
05-09-2010, 9:18 PM
Believe me, that would get the attention of such bazaar (and bozo) salespeople/managers/dealers.

And Bozo was a what? That's right. A clown!

Sounds you were a rare exception to the sales clowns, Jeff. I commend you for your honesty and your big picture approach.

Years ago, Consumer Reports printed an angry letter from the wife of a man who owned a dealership. She was livid that Consumer's Union had the audacity to tell customers what the dealer paid for the car. (Obviously, this was eating into profits and possibly her next vacation home in Aspen.)

CU replied to the letter and basically explained that if dealers had not been ripping people off in such extreme ways for such a very long time, they wouldn't have to tell customers how much the dealer paid for the car. In other words, "It's your own darned fault!".

Ed Harrow
05-09-2010, 9:37 PM
I've not got time to read thru 4 pages of great comments... Watch out for the 'paperwork' charge! I had a dealer attempt to charge me $250 for filling out a sheet of paper!!! If someone already mentioned this scam, well consider yourself twice warned, LOL.

Michael Trivette
05-26-2010, 7:13 AM
After 9 years and 118k miles, my PT Cruiser blew a head gasket and has some internal engine damage. Although the rest of the car is in great shape, it is just not cost effective to repair or replace the engine. I will be calling the local high schools to see if any of them still have shop classes and donate the car.

Now for the new one. We have narrowed it down to the Ford Edge, Honda CR-V, and Chevrolet Equinox. I was wondering what advice, tips and tricks people have when it comes to haggling with the sales people at the dealerships. What is the best way to get a good price?

Thanks!

Dan




Shoulda bought a Toyota. May not get it to stop but if you can keep it out of the ditch it'll last till 300k miles or better

John Coloccia
05-26-2010, 9:01 AM
I know this is all over and done with, but I'll chime in anyhow: I never negotiate. In fact, I don't even ask what something costs, and if they try to tell me or dazzle with with monthly payments or some nonsense, I cut them off. All I'll ever do is make an offer that I think is fair (which is usually well below what they're asking). I calculate what the tax and fees should be, and tell them I'm willing to write a check for exactly that amount, not a penny more. After the obligatory mock shock and indignation, I walk out with the car. Usually. There was one time I made an offer over the phone based on the description, with the stipulation that the car simply needs to match the description. I was refused outright. He thought his Subaru Forester was made out of solid gold. LOL...that car was on his lot for a LONG time.

I have to say, though, that my last car buying experience was extremely pleasant and didn't require any antacid whatsoever. I'll definitely be back there!

Michael Weber
05-26-2010, 12:53 PM
I purchased a new 03 Tacoma truck (basic white 2WD bottom of the line) After agreeing on a price and multiple trips back to the "sales manager" to "Okay" counter offers (trade in involved) the salesman moaned he might not be able to eat tonight (which I knew was BS) Anyway after working out the price, I was taken back to the financing area and given 3 payment options (I had planned to pay cash but I got a slightly better price financing and paid it off the next month). The interest rate and length of loan were the same so I ask if they included some kind of extended warranty. He never volunteered that info. I told him I didn't want the extended warranty. I thought I was going to get into a fist fight with the guy (different guy than the salesman) before he stopped pressuring me to get the warranty. He finally told me I would have to sign a paper declaring I had refused the warranty. I told him I wouldn't do that and he insisted I had to. I was ready to walk out but I finally signed a memo pad on which he wrote "Refused Warranty". By the time I left with the truck I was hopping mad but it's been a great little truck

Dan Mages
05-26-2010, 3:08 PM
Shoulda bought a Toyota. May not get it to stop but if you can keep it out of the ditch it'll last till 300k miles or better

We did not care for Toyotas approach to options and accessories and found them to be dull to drive. We have no need for AWD, but with the RAV-4 you are forced to get it in all but the most basic of packages. Some of the features we wanted were only available as part of a $7500+ option group, instead of offering them a la carte like most manufactures. For example, if you want leather seats, you will need to fork out $7429 to buy the package with a nav system, push button start, back up camera, panoramic roof, heated side mirrors, amongst many other items that are not needed.

Dan

Jerome Stanek
05-29-2010, 6:59 PM
I always take an extra key and only give them that one. One time I was in a dealer and they took my truck for a test drive and would not give me my key back so I got up went out to the truck got in and started to call the police when they asked what I was doing I said you stole my key and I am reporting the theft.