Anyone using marc Sommerfeld's T&G cabinet joinery method?

[scott vroom]

I've heard some positive comments recently about Marc Sommerfeld's T&G method of cabinet joinery. I also heard that it requires an expensive Marc Sommerfeld proprietary router bit set. I'd like to buy his DVD but don't want to pay money to hear an infomercial. What's the bottome line? Is Sommerfeld's T&G method really superior to pocket screw joinery for cabinet boxes and face frames?

Thanks

[Gene Howe]

Yes, you need his bit set. I think it's a very good investment.
However, I use either method, depending on the type of case. For upscale work, Marc's T&G set up is the way to go. I recommend his raised panel set up also.
If you use his method totally, everything locks together very well.
Be sure to get the video. It's a great tool, also. It is very helpful, and not an infomercial, at all.

[Bob Wingard]

Early bit sets, designed by Marc and built by CMT had some major dimensional issues, but that was LONG ago. The concept is very sound, and it is a very easy joint to setup and use.

If you search around, there ARE other vendors selling similar, if not identical sets for a bit less $$$$, but I can't speak to their quality or durability. Now that he has the dimensions correct, I don't think you can go wrong with Marc's set.

[Sam Layton]

Hi Scott,

I built my bathroom vanity using Marc's T&G system. I am now building my first kitchen using the T&G system as well. It really does a good job of lining everything up and makes it very strong.

Marc makes a big deal about his bits being the same length, so you don't have to make any height changes on your router. In my opinion, it is to much trouble, and to time consuming to change bits every time. I set up one bit in my shaper, and one bit in my router table. So, no bit changing, which saves a lot of time and trouble.

His system is good. However, I had to make some modifications to fit my style.

Sam

[Edward P. Surowiec]

Early bit sets, designed by Marc and built by CMT had some major dimensional issues, but that was LONG ago. The concept is very sound, and it is a very easy joint to setup and use.

If you search around, there ARE other vendors selling similar, if not identical sets for a bit less $$$$, but I can't speak to their quality or durability. Now that he has the dimensions correct, I don't think you can go wrong with Marc's set.

Hello Bob, would define "LONG ago" I bought a set of Marc's bits three years ago and have not used them yet, good intentions gone astray ;). I would like to know if the dimensional problem you referred to is within the three to four year range,
Thanks
Ed

[Gene Howe]

Hello Bob, would define "LONG ago" I bought a set of Marc's bits three years ago and have not used them yet, good intentions gone astray ;). I would like to know if the dimensional problem you referred to is within the three to four year range,
Thanks
Ed

Ed, my set is 5 years old and there are no problems. Mine is the CMT set touted by Marc. Not the set sold under the Sommerfeld name.

[Don Morris]

I have the the Sommerfeld set and used it to build parts of a cabinet and it worked out well. As I remember on his DVD, he doesn't completely get away from pocket screws. And on my cabinet I thought some parts would go just as fast or faster with, pocket screws. On my router set up, I can't remember why, I wasn't able to set it up to take advantage of not having to re-set the height adjustment, so that part didn't work out and it lost a lot of it's appeal. If you don't want to show screw holes, it's great. Thus, I use both...sort of depends. The DVD isn't that expensive and is well worth it if you decide to do tongue and groove.

[Bob Wingard]

[QUOTE=I would like to know if the dimensional problem you referred to is within the three to four year range,Ed[/QUOTE]


About the easiest way to tell is to make a test cut with the bit that produces the tongue. If the tongue is exactly 0.250", you are probably OK. NExt, make a test cut with the groove producing bit .. the groove should be not less than 0.250". If it is SLIGHTLY deeper, it simply allows a place for excess glue to run off. If it is anything less than 0.250", the tongue will bottom out in the groove before the shoulders touch and the resulting joint will never fit correctly.

The shallow tongue is, by far the most common flaw. If your bit has that problem, Marc is/was providing a special bearing with a collar on it to change the depth of cut, which is usually sufficient. In my particular case, I had already machined a brass collar that proved to be EXACTLY what was needed for a perfect fitting joint, so I wound up not using his "IMPROVED" bearing.

If you have the defective set, and if you follow his directions to the letter .. .. you will have a cabinet that is about 1/8" wider at the back than at the front. Not usually too much of a problem, UNLESS you are doing a wall of cabinets with a bank of 8 or 10 boxes. The error starts adding up fast, and before you know it, you can't pull the fronts into alignment.

If you are still concerned .. measure the rub bearing on the tongue bit, and let me know what the diameter is .. I'll check mine, and we'll compare them. As I said .. I have mine down to a perfect 0.250" for both the tongue and the groove .. .. the joints couldn't fit any better // // but it took a while to get there.

[Johnnyy Johnson]

I bought all his DVD's and several bit setup's. His DVD's were the best I have bought so far for someone at my level of woodworking. I wish he would make more DND's.

[Bill Neely]

I'm building 32mm cabinets now but Marc's DVD about cabinetmaking (his system) is the best 10 bucks I've ever spent.

[Terry Sparks]

I have 4 or 5 of Marc's router sets and like all of them. I also have his old table as well as his newer aluminum table and his system is what I used while learing to build cabinets. Marc's system is easy to learn with his DVD's. his router bits and sets are very good and his system is also very good.

[Edward P. Surowiec]

I have Marc's AL. Table and DVD's and wish that he would have spent more time explaining how to install the AL sections of the table. MY table has a crown in the center. I tried several different ways of shimming but when I tightened the bolts that draw the outer two sections into the center section the table would crown again. I have only routed profile edges and the crown did not cause a problem but I am concerned that routing two mating edges may be problem, such as stiles and rails. Has anyone else found a crown in Marc Sommerfeld's aluminium table and a method to correct it??:confused:

[Steven Herbin]

Hi-

I have the old version of the top and several sets of Marc's bits. The T & G works great once everything is adjusted and aligned.

If you are experiencing a problem with any of Marc's products, give them a call. I have always found them to be friendly and helpful and they stand behind their products.

--Steve.

[Bob Wingard]

I spoke with their rep. at a recent show, and he said they've changed their extruding process and/or supplier, but he wouldn't go so far as to admit there ever was a problem.

If they won't replace a defective panel, I'd consider lightly jointing the edges to true them up in hopes that it will make the edges square to the top. I have the old laminate top without a router plate and I wouldn't trade for the aluminum one .. I've actually been asked and I refused. I've heard of WAY too many problems with the original aluminum tops. Marc generally has really good, well thought out tools, but every once in a while, he goofs, and just can't bring himself to admit it or offer corrective action until/unless he gets a LOT of bad press about it. A few years back a bunch of us beat him up on several of the forums regarding a dimensional error in this tongue & groove set .. .. after a long period of silence, he finally provided corrective parts to anyone who called requesting them. The error affected ONLY the early CMT (orange) bit sets, so if you have that set and are curious about the problem, do a search and read all about it.

[Jeff Wright]

I very much like Marc's tongue and groove cabinet set. If you are using a router table, I suggest you get a set of router bit wrenches that allow you to undo the router nuts while they are BELOW the table . . . the wrenches with the bent handles. They make interchanging the two tongue and groove bits easier, since his concept requires you to not alter the depth of the router motor between the two bit changes. I have gone to using pocket screws to assemble my face frames. I used to use my Domino but find the pocket screws faster and sufficiently strong.

[Vijay Kumar]

Does anybody know who makes the new yellow bits that Marc sells. If not CMT then who?

I bought the entire DVD set and have to say I was quite impressed with his presentation--very little salesmanship other than the advantage of his bits.

Vijay

[Phil Thien]

I saw his method demonstrated and couldn't help wondering... Why couldn't you skip his router bit set and just use a biscuit joiner?

(1) Build face frame using pocket screws.

(2) Biscuit-join/pocket screw a left side to the face frame.

(3) Biscuit-join/pocket screw a right side to the face frame.

(4) Biscuit-join/pocket screw a bottom to the face frame. (4b) Add a couple of cleats to the sides under the bottom for additional support.

(5) Biscuit-join/pocket screw a top to the face frame. (5b) Add a couple of cleats to the sides above the top for some additional support, if desired.

(6) Add a back. If you make a groove in the sides and top before assembly, you could just slide a back in from the bottom and use a little glue and a few brads to hold it in place.

To speed-up locating biscuits, just make a story stick with marks for where you want biscuits. Make another story stick for where you want pocket holes. One pair of story sticks for the base cabinets, and another for the top cabinets.

What do you guys think?

[Vijay Kumar]

I am not an expert on cabinetmaking, but do know a little bit about wood joinery.

IMHO the biscuits would be good for alignment, but do not have much shear strength unlike the tongue and groove that Marc proposes. Sure you could reinforce these by pocket holes, but then you would have to deal with the appearance of these. I think loose tenon joinery would work, dominoes or equivalent, but perhaps not as fast as the tongue and groove joinery. All said the Sommerfeld system is robust, fast, and seems fairly foolproof with his matched height bits. I have not used his system only seen the DVD. But in the hands of an expert, even the most rudimentary methods look slick.

Anyway thats my opinion, right or wrong.

Vijay

[Shawn Morley]

I don't know too much about building cabinets this way but I do completely understand the concept. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't this take a considerable amount of time in comparison to using pocket screws and gluing the frame on?

[Phil Thien]

I am not an expert on cabinetmaking, but do know a little bit about wood joinery.

IMHO the biscuits would be good for alignment, but do not have much shear strength unlike the tongue and groove that Marc proposes. Sure you could reinforce these by pocket holes, but then you would have to deal with the appearance of these. I think loose tenon joinery would work, dominoes or equivalent, but perhaps not as fast as the tongue and groove joinery. All said the Sommerfeld system is robust, fast, and seems fairly foolproof with his matched height bits. I have not used his system only seen the DVD. But in the hands of an expert, even the most rudimentary methods look slick.

Anyway thats my opinion, right or wrong.

Vijay

Marc uses T&G and pocket screws. I'm simply replacing the T&G with biscuits. I'd still use the pocket screws, just like Marc. Concealed in the same manner.

No doubt about it, the T&G would be stronger.

But I think the biscuits would be strong enough.

[Jeff Wright]

I am a fan of the Somerfeld T&G joinery system. The fourth photo shows a cabinet I am building with the glued groove awaiting the tongue from the side panel. The other photos show the glued up cabinet in clamps. The method assures a square fit and an extremely strong joint. Since the bits create an off center groove, care must be taken to cut the tongues on the sides properly: for sides that are to be flush with the face frame, position the thicker side of the tongue on the outside of the cab side (I cut the tongue with the outside of the cab side face down). If you want to leave an overhang for when joining adjacent cabinets, flip the cab side over.

Note also the groove cut for the cab top. The top will have a tongue on the front edge of the piece making a strong joint there as well.

The photos also show butt hinge mortises as I most often use inset doors and drawers. The backside of the applied pencil moldings are also visible.

[Alan Bienlein]

If you have a dado set you have all you need to do that type of cabinet joinery. Thats how my dad taught me to build cabinets. Nothing new or special about it. I like it cause I can cut all my pieces and do the joinery and assemble the cabinet without clamps, nails or screws to check the fit of everything.

[Dan Chouinard]

Just TRYED to watch the Somerfeld T&G DVD, and literally pulled it out of the player half way thru and tossed it in the trash. What a total shit show. People actually PAY him to teach cabinetmaking?

[scott vroom]

I agree a dado set is all you need, but I believe the Summerfeld method is quicker and easier to control tolerances.

[John Craig Brown]

I have the Sommerfeld sets and I have built a base cabinet which came out great - although I add a few pocket holes to avoid clamping as he did in the original cabinet DVD as opposed to the new and improved - he was much more pro pocket hole with the original DVD. I know there is history between Kreg and Sommerfeld but that is a different story.

What I would like is a link or the dimensions of the upper and lower cabinets using Marc's method - I had them once but of course I can't find them when I want them - they included upper, lower, and corner cabinets.

Marc's site only has instructions for the router table.

[Jack Pinkham]

Watching Marc Sommerfeld's video on tongue and groove cabinetmaking has me ready to get a T&G bit set. His set sells for about $110, while the Freud 99-036 adjustable T&G set can be had for around $64 . The Summerfeld set includes a flush trim bit, but I already have one from Whiteside. A selling point for the Summerfeld set is that the router height doesn't have to be adjusted when switching between bits. Can the Freud set also be adjusted to achieve the same convenience? Or does an amateur really need it? Recommendations?

http://www.freudtools.com/p-155-adjustable-tongue-groove-bit-set.aspx
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/3-Pc-Tongue-Groove-Cabinetmaking-Set/productinfo/03004/

[Rob Vicelli]

I have the T&G and a couple of cabinet sets. I find the system very good. I was actual just starting about post about using cabinet levelers using his sytem, need some help there.
HI DVD are top notch also.

Rob

[Ryan Hellmer]

I am building a kitchen roughly based on Marc's system. Didn't want to spent the cash on the bit set and looked elsewhere for comparable and couldn't find them. You wouldn't think that .25 x .25 T&G would be hard to find but it is. I'm going to use a 2.5" groover on my shaper for all grooves and a stacked setup on the shaper for tongues. I figure I've got enough bushings and shims to get the right setup. T&G is really the way to go, but there are certainly many ways to skin that cat.

Ryan