Best HVLP system?

[Cameron Reddy]

Having a nightmare finishing cabinet doors... I get too much run-over to the bottom edge of the doors. :mad:

And I have a big house painting job this summer. I'm a hobbyist but occasionally I do something like a hardwood floor or wall of custom milled paneling.

So, I'm looking at a system that will handle paint as well as fine furniture.

Jeff Jewitt, who I very much respect, suggests his Fuji Super 4 system. It seems pretty nice and I'm very tempted to pull the trigger and buy from him even though I can get it cheaper from Amazon. I wonder if the extra $100 bucks for the Q4 Gold is worth the decrease in noise.

But, I wanted to ask you guys. I see a pretty interesting system from Graco and I wonder about the utility of the ProComp Accessory Pack that allows separating the gun from the material cup... Not sure what that gets me beyond the 3M PPS material cups that I can add to the Fuji.

Ideas?

Other systems that you guys like?

Cameron Reddy

[George Brown]

I have a 4 stage apollo unit with 5 sizes of nozzles/needles. Works well. The newer apollo ones have both a bottom and top feed gun, mine only a bottom feed. Have not tried the others, but mine works well.

[Phil Phelps]

I don't think you'll be happy with a HVLP painting a house. They aren't a cure all. You'll want an airless system for house painting. Even so, an airless isn't always the way to go, either. You are having problems with your doors because you are painting them vertically or maybe your material is too thin and you're flooding the door. You'll have the same problem with a HVLP. HVLP's simply have less overspray, but you still have to thin the material the same. You need to set your doors on "pins" and spray them flat. You can drive 1 1/4" brads through 1/4"x2"x2" plywood and set these in the corners under the door. Spray the door, not the edge, and flip it over. Then spray the edge and face. You'll have a much job this way. HVLP's are good but not the end all people sometimes think.

[Loren Hedahl]

There are several top notch units available, such as the Fuji, all of which will produce the great results according to your skill level and the materials you are using.

So if you were to ask me, I'd advise to purchase the best system that is reasonable for your situation and practice, practice and practice.

Fortunately you have, on this forum, experienced folks that will gladly help you over the rough spots that come up.

In my case, I have a good quality compressor, so I went with a conversion gun, an inexpensive one from Harbor Freight (actually two, a full size and a detail size).

Of course it doesn't produce the enormous fan that the Iwata gun my son uses, but that feature is rarely needed unless you are spraying a large surface, such as a car in a production setting. I've used his Iwata. Nice gun, but it goes so fast that this old guy can't quite keep up with it and makes his share of runs.

So, purchase your Fuji and go for it. I'd love to have one too, but I've become so used to the HF conversion guns I already have that acquiring a Fuji or similar isn't high on the priority list.

[Cameron Reddy]

Phil, I obviously didn't make it clear. I'm trying to apply the finish by hand. I don't have a sprayer. I have a toner in the finish and I can't keep it from running around the bottom edges. And it streaks too much!

Why do you think the HVLP system is inadequate for painting a house (in this case, the exterior)?

I really do appreciate your input!

Cameron

[Scott Holmes]

HVLP units are MUCH slower at delivering material to a surface, than an airless paint sprayer.

They also can't handle thick latex house paint without thinning which is not recommended.

There is a "best of both worlds" an Air-Assisted Airless... they are not cheap; they are all-in-one units; a soft spray like the HVLP; the speed of an airless for production. I can spray anything from shellac or dye to latex paint in anything from a 1" to a 15" fan. NO THINNING NEEDED. I don't use it for latex but it will spray is flawlessly.

As someone else on this forum said "A-A Airless are in a class by themselves."

[Joe Chritz]

I use a conversion gun, top cup feed and it does fine. Any of the turbine units of a quality nature will give you great service.

As Scott mentions it isn't a one size fits all deal. For what it is designed for an HVLP is a great set up. I can spray SW pro-classic but it needs to be thinned almost 15% and then it is pretty slow. A different needle / nozzle will help some but for a house it will be a slow painful process.

When I built my house I used an airless inside and backrolled. The house is about 2000 Sq ft with 9 foot ceilings. One guy spraying, one rolling, including ceilings was 4 hours per coat. They will lay down some material in a hurry.

There is a lot to a finishing system. Especially when you get into pressure pot, AAA and the like. Try a couple if you can and see what you like. Each system has advantages, disadvantages and different feel.

Joe

[Henry Ambrose]

I have a Graco HVLP and like it for finishing. It's great for cabinets ans such. To paint a house - its the wrong tool - get (rent) an airless. I don't have any first hand knowledge of the Fuji but hear good things about them.

[Phil Phelps]

Phil, I obviously didn't make it clear. I'm trying to apply the finish by hand. I don't have a sprayer. I have a toner in the finish and I can't keep it from running around the bottom edges. And it streaks too much!

Why do you think the HVLP system is inadequate for painting a house (in this case, the exterior)?

I really do appreciate your input!

Cameron

Cameron, as Scott says, HVLP's aren't designed to spray heavy bodied latex paints. HVLP's are wonderful sprayguns in as much as they deliver a lot of material with a soft spray and large reduction in overspray. Many, like me, use a conversion gun, (to be used with a large air compressor), and other HVLP's have a turbine that drives the unit. As far as the streaking in your doors, it sounds as if the toner you are using isn't blending with your, whatever you are using as a top coat.

[Cameron Reddy]

Phil, I've got a Campbell Hausfeld 20 gallon compressor that says can do 5.8 CFM at 90 PSI. Newer versions of this compressor have an additional specification for 40 PSI and it's 6.5 CFM, as I recall. And it's an oil-bath motor.

I'm concerned about oil in the line. I've heard there are water/oil filters but I'm skeptical of their efficacy.

Jeff Jewett suggested I go with a turbine unit. Do you agree?

Cameron

[Joe Chritz]

That compressor is able to drive a standard conversion gun but it is on the very bottom side of possible and if you do a fair amount at one time it will struggle to keep up.

I use a 60 gallon 3 HP 220v compressor with a bunch of 1/2 copper lines in the shop (increases the overall air volume) and the compressor will kick on after about 80-90 seconds of spraying at my normal settings. If I continue to spray non-stop it won't catch up but it does keep up.

HVLP is high volume so the smaller tank will hurt you as much as lower CFM.

If you do get a conversion gun it won't take a lot of spraying before you are shopping for a compressor.

Joe

[Phil Phelps]

Cameron, if you were trying to paint a 4x8 and keep a wet edge, I'd say the compressor would be taxed quite a bit. It takes a lot of air to run a conversion gun. Several years ago, a friend bought an Accuspray HVLP, in a swap meet, that ran off a turbine. The whole thing looked like a toy. However, it was, is, most impressive. My first thoughts were, " this is just what every garage guy needs." I'm sure there have been many improvements since that model and I would like to have one myself. It is a very compact unit that delivers great results. You need to determine what your needs are and decide from there. Jeff's on target with the turbine. Good luck finding a good price.

[Cameron Reddy]

I'm getting the idea. The HVLP is the wrong tool for a house. It can be done, I understand, but it makes no sense. Use a roller and brush or get a more appropriate system.

You guys have helped much, as always. Now I need to decide if I should go for something like the Mini Mite 3 on the inexpensive end (<$600), or the top Fuji 4 stage system, with special sound insulation, on the high end (just under a grand). The latter would handle thicker stuff like latex paint on furniture and would be luxuriously quiet.

I'll think about it over this weekend.

[Cameron Reddy]

I'm getting the idea. The HVLP is the wrong tool for a house. It can be done, I understand, but it makes no sense. Use a roller and brush or get a more appropriate system.

You guys have helped much, as always. Now I need to decide if I should go for something like the Mini Mite 3 on the inexpensive end (<$600), or the top Fuji 4 stage system, with special sound insulation, on the high end (just under a grand). The latter would handle thicker stuff like latex paint on furniture and would be luxuriously quiet.

I'll think about it over this weekend.

[Scott Holmes]

Cameron,

NO LATEX paint on FURNITURE. Repeat. It will block which means it will stick to whatever is set on it and then it will come off the furniture. Latex paint is for houses and walls.

I'm not sure I'd want to put latex paint in an HVLP system... latex is a bit abrasive, and thick, also not sure the system could spray it without thinning it.

[George Brown]

I often use latex in my HVLP. You do need a 4 stage machine, and I add 2 oz of water and 2oz of floetrol per quart. Does a good job.

Though a little slow, you could use it to paint a house. You would need a remote container to hold more paint than the quart attached to the gun. Using a large nozzle, you can lay down quite a bit of paint, and it is still easier than doing it by hand. Also, a good reason to justify the cost of the machine :D

However, an airless is the way to go. MUCH faster.

[Phil Phelps]

I don't know for sure, but I'd think that if you watered down house paint to get it through a HVLP you'd void the warranty. Paint wasn't meant to be reduced that far. For fifty bucks, why not rent an airless?

[George Brown]

The only dilution is the water, and it is not that much. The floetrol is just a viscosity reducer.

The airless is a lot more than $50, you could not finish it in one day, though it would be less work.

[Cameron Reddy]

I often use latex in my HVLP. You do need a 4 stage machine, and I add 2 oz of water and 2oz of floetrol per quart. Does a good job.

Though a little slow, you could use it to paint a house. You would need a remote container to hold more paint than the quart attached to the gun. Using a large nozzle, you can lay down quite a bit of paint, and it is still easier than doing it by hand. Also, a good reason to justify the cost of the machine :D

However, an airless is the way to go. MUCH faster.

George, I'm intrigued. I own an airless system that overs prays to an extent that I could never use it outside, unless my neighbors want their house, windows, shrubs, and car painted as well.

If I can use the HVLP outside, it is, indeed, justification for buying the noise-reduced Fuji system.

Cameron Reddy

[George Brown]

George, I'm intrigued. I own an airless system that overs prays to an extent that I could never use it outside, unless my neighbors want their house, windows, shrubs, and car painted as well.

If I can use the HVLP outside, it is, indeed, justification for buying the noise-reduced Fuji system.

Cameron Reddy


Just charge them for a custom paint job :D

I guess it depends on how close your neighbors are. Whatever over spray, or really just mist, that comes off is dry by the time it gets anywhere, so it is really just like dust. Outside, the breeze would probably dissipate it very quickly.

If things that you don't want to get paint on are really close, I guess you'd have to worry, but anything a little further should not be a problem. Granted, I did not do a whole house, but whatever I sprayed outdoors, did not seem to carry any distance. Or maybe that's why the neighbor was washing his car so often :D.

There is a significant over spray with airless units also.

A noise reduced one would be nice. Outdoors is not too bad, but indoors, it is very loud.

[Jeff Jewitt]

In regards to the acrylic trim enamels (waterborne) just about every manufacturer I have talked to have said the thinning up to 10% is no problem. 2 oz water per quart is less than that. We usually suggest 3-4 oz water and 3-4 oz Floetrol to spray Ben Moore Impervo and SW ProClassic (waterborne acrylics) through turbines and they work fine assuming you have the correct nozzle. We suggest 1.4mm-1.5mm for fine finishing of furniture where speed is not an issue, and 1.8mm-2.0mm where speed is required (walls, etc)

In regards to Floetrol, it really isn't a viscosity reducer as it's pretty thick, it's more of a flow out additive that negates some of the effects that adding water has on a typical interior waterbased paint.

Also keep in mind that you should never use a standard latex wall paint for furniture as it doesn't have the necessary durability for furniture.

An HVLP turbine isn't something I would want to use for walls or a house (airless is best), but it will work, albeit slow. For the home woodworker doing furniture and other projects that use thinner materials (decking stuff, fences) it is still a good all-purpose option.

[Cameron Reddy]

I've been studying a bit. I'm still thinking of using a HVLP system for my woodworking and occasional house painting by adding a 2 quart off-gun pot. Everyone has agreed that HVLP isn't to best tool but I'm pretty sure everyone has been considering their experiences with 4 stage systems.

And now I've discovered 5 and even 6 stage systems that produce not 8 psi but up to 11.5 psi. That's nearly 50% more powerful. :eek: They are a lot more expensive, of course, but I would at least like to know what is possible.

The problem is I that I haven't been able to find any reviews of these more powerful systems. You guys know anything about them?

The 9969 is 10 psi and I've seen it for $1200. The Titan 115 is about $1400 and is 11.5 psi.

Notable features:

1. Because of the power of these units, an add on compressor is not necessary to run the 2 qt. pressure pot (another $245).

2. The units have two power settings. One (low) that runs at 4 stage power and high for 6 stage power.

3. The guns are modified with larger internal chambers and passageways.

Six Stage Systems:

http://www.spraytechinc.com/portal/pics/spraytechinc/cs9960_.jpg
http://www.spraytechinc.com/portal/us_cs9960_en_spraytechinc,310711,301161.html

http://www.titantool.com/portal/pics/Titantool/products/Fine%20Finish/CAPSPRAY-115-product-page.jpg

http://www.titantool.com/portal/us_capspray_115_en_titantool.html

[Henry Ambrose]

I've used my HVLP to paint exterior latex for railings and shutters. Even though HVLP doesn't give much overspray its not as if you don't have to mask and shield carefully.

Those 5 and 6 stage machines sound good but I know nothing of either of them personally.

If you're painting a new house or a barn then its fast and easy to use airless to get a lot of paint applied. If you are spraying a house with established landscaping and detailed trim its probably better to go back to brush and roller.

It takes a crew to mask and protect and lots of time that same crew could roll and brush almost as fast. Crappy apartment buildings get sprayed. Spray a nice house the same way and you will have a nightmare on your hands. Homeowners have much higher standards than landlords.

[George Brown]

Airless for latex on a house is the best tool. However, if you want a sprayer for woodworking, and ocassionally want to use it to paint your house, it will work, though slower. Now if you've got the money, buy BOTH :D

I've sprayed latex indoors on a wall without getting any on the ceiling, no masking either. Just held up a cardboard at the top of the wall to stop any overspray. It worked fine, actually better than cutting in with a brush. I'm not a very good painter :(

I haven't seen the air assisted airless, something to look into.

EDIT:

Looked at the air assisted airless. Not bad. BUT, looks like it would waste a lot of paint that is left in the machine and needs to be washed out. Even my hvlp spray gun wastes some that I have to wash out, though I've been able to reduce it to less than 2 tablespoon's worth. With the airless, the hoses and pump would waste quite a bit. Would not be worth setting up for a small job.

[Phil Phelps]

In regards to the acrylic trim enamels (waterborne) just about every manufacturer I have talked to have said the thinning up to 10% is no problem. 2 oz water per quart is less than that. We usually suggest 3-4 oz water and 3-4 oz Floetrol to spray Ben Moore Impervo and SW ProClassic (waterborne acrylics) through turbines and they work fine assuming you have the correct nozzle. We suggest 1.4mm-1.5mm for fine finishing of furniture where speed is not an issue, and 1.8mm-2.0mm where speed is required (walls, etc)

In regards to Floetrol, it really isn't a viscosity reducer as it's pretty thick, it's more of a flow out additive that negates some of the effects that adding water has on a typical interior waterbased paint.

Also keep in mind that you should never use a standard latex wall paint for furniture as it doesn't have the necessary durability for furniture.

An HVLP turbine isn't something I would want to use for walls or a house (airless is best), but it will work, albeit slow. For the home woodworker doing furniture and other projects that use thinner materials (decking stuff, fences) it is still a good all-purpose option.

Jeff, I have been using Floetrol for decades. It's a great product for brushing latex enamels. I haven't burshed acrylic enamels, but I would imagine it would work as well. Unless Floetrol was reformulated, the manufacturer called it an "extender". It really aided in smoothness when brushing and it greatly helps laying out, or reducing brush strokes. It was never intended for a reducer. I used to try it back in the seventies when Sears dictated the color of their signs and I was spraying cut out letters and masonite substrates with latex. I never saw a helpful difference back then. They have changed the wording in their directions, but I'm not sure it really helps. Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to try and use a HVLP to spray latex on walls in their home. You can do a better, faster, and cleaner job with the proper roller cover and brush.

[Cameron Reddy]

Phil,

Have you tried using a 5 or 6 stage HVLP with a high-capacity gun?

[Phil Phelps]

No, Cameron, I haven't. I probably won't either. I'm not going to up grade anything in my shop. I've been around over four decades and this isn't something that I need. I want everyone to benefit from the latest technology in tools and materials and I'm sure many new items are available that I personally have and will miss. That HVLP you posted is certainly nice. I'm not knocking it, but if it were me and I was a hobbiest, I'd invest my money in a spray booth. It seems that you are really interested in painting your house. You know you can rent an airless system fairly cheap. You won't be painting for another 8-10 years if you do a pro job. Painting a house is a walk in the park "after" you work your tail off on the prep. Keep researching and reading, you need to do what's right for you. Good luck.

[Cameron Reddy]

Phil, I get the impression you were offended by my comment. I'm most sorry about that. Not intended, to be sure.

What I'm trying to find is someone who has actually used one of these new high-powered systems and has an opinion one way or the other.

I know that folks who have used 4 stage systems do not recommend painting a house. Some, such as George, have used HVLP systems with success in limited house painting. But I don't think even George has used the newer 5 and/or 6 stage systems.

I own an airless paint system that I used to paint my garage and much of my great room. It was totally unacceptable for painting outside, unfortunately, as there was way too much overspray and blow back. Paint went everywhere.

A HVLP system with limited overspray and blow back would seem to be just the ticket if, that is, it has the ability to put down enough paint.

Further, it would seem to me, totally inexperienced in exterior house painting—mind you, that an HVLP sprayer that can put down enough paint would be a godsend for someone trying to use a roller to cover the many surfaces presented with siding's overlapping boards. In other words, painting multi-faceted siding is not as easy as painting a nice and flat interior wall, or so I assume.

[Erik Christensen]

I am also interested in any feedback on use of the newer 5 & 6 stage turbines. I am not a pro but do shoot a fair amount of finish - a couple of gallons of WB poly in a weekend is not uncommon.

I have a 16 year old Titan 3 stage HVLP & it has done a lot of work over the years but the gun is starting to go and parts no longer available. So, I can get a new gun or use this an the excuse to upgrade my system. The only things I don't like about my current setup are the poor latex performance and the PITA of production work with a quart cup - to tiring, hard to get inside case work and stopping every 15 minutes for the messy job of pouring finish from a gallon can really chaps me.

So it seems my choices are - 5/6 stage turbine unit with 2.5 gallon pressure pot to hold my gallon cans OR air-assisted airless (A-A A)system.

cost aside what is the groups recommendation? does A-A A produce as fine a finish with WB Poly/dye/shellac as a high end HVLP turbine/gun? any advantage of A-A A vs HVLP?

from my research so far it seems that A-A A does not heat the air which impacts the flow-out of some finishes, is a better choice for latex and can layout more finish/unit time..

[Cameron Reddy]

Woo Hoo, Erik! GREAT questions!!

Something like this?

http://www.hvlp.com/images/turbines/1200_lg.jpg

Or this?

http://www.titantool.com/portal/pics/Titantool/products/Fine%20Finish/CAPSPRAY-125-product-page.jpg

[Phil Phelps]

Cameron, no apologies necessary. No offense was taken, whatsoever. I'm at the end of my career and won't be buying much of anything for my shop. I think I understand what you are trying to do. It's the reason people hate painting. Most folks have little patience and far too little experience, probably for the same reason. They look at a hallway with seven door casings, seven doors and a mess of base just for starters. And they try to do this in one coat. And, if you're not used to it, it's painful and slow. Spraying sounds like it would be the easiest, most effective way to paint. But, not always. For the home's exterior, an HVLP isn't the way to do it. It's not made for heavy, pigmented latex paints. That is when you need the airless. But, you'll need the proper spray tip for the paint you are using. You may need stilts, walk boards, paddle, brush, bucket, on and on. You also need to know how to properly operate your airless. It's not an easy project. But, if you take the job at hand in steps and complete each one in sequence, you'll have this project under control and the finished product will be much better. Concede that you will have to sand, prime, and use two finish coats. One guy, many hours of intense labor. I hate to see people seduced into buying equipment they really don't need, or won't be using after the project it is completed. There are few instances that spray painting are necessary for the interior of the house. If you have an airless, it should be perfect for painting the siding of your house. Just have everything you need set up before you begin. The first being the best paint from a paint store. Don't cheat yourself, buy the top of the line paint. I'm on your side, believe me.

[Scott Holmes]

Cameron,

I have an airless sprayer, because my wife and I have rental properties. Spraying outside is easier than spraying inside. IF you had as much overspray as you indicate; I suspect you did not have the airless sprayer set-up properly.

Outside is an easy job compared to interior.

[Cameron Reddy]

Well, Scott, that is certainly possible. However, as I recall, it was pretty much plug and play. I stuck the thing in a gallon of paint, turned it on, and painted.

I'm sure I could do parts of my house with it. The parts that are furthest away from neighbors.

I'm hoping someone will chime in who has used one of the newer high powered units.

[Phil Phelps]

Well, Scott, that is certainly possible. However, as I recall, it was pretty much plug and play. I stuck the thing in a gallon of paint, turned it on, and painted.

I'm sure I could do parts of my house with it. The parts that are furthest away from neighbors.

I'm hoping someone will chime in who has used one of the newer high powered units.
I, too, was wondering why you had relatively little success with your airless painting. It should have done a great job on the clapboards on your home.

[Cameron Reddy]

:mad: I fear that I've not been very clear and I'm a bit embarrassed :o by my inability to communicate effectively. I humbly apologize and throw myself upon the mercy of the court... It's really great that you guys are so willing to take time and steer me in the right direction. Forums like this are such an incredible resource.

Anyhow, I had really wonderful results with the airless system when I painted interior walls and ceilings in my house and garage. It was fast and easy.

The problem was the overspray. It made me very fearful of trying to paint the exterior of my house (and via that overspray so paint my neighbor's house, windows, and car as well). Plus, on the interior, I had to enclose the areas being painted in plastic sheeting. Walling off my great room was a major pain.

My hope was that a system with less overspray could be used to great advantage on the much more complicated exterior surfaces of my house. I've got dental rail and other multi-surfaced trim on the front of the house, and considerable contrasting trim elsewhere on the front, sides, and back of the house. I was quoted $5K :eek: by College Painters. Naturally, I saw a tool purchase opportunity. :D

So, I thought, if I can get some extra mileage out of an HVLP system that I need to finish my kitchen cabinets and other woodworking projects, it might be worth investing, for example, in the Fuji Q system instead of the Mini Mite. Then, of course, I discover 5 and 6 stage systems and start thinking... "Gee, everyone that says HVLP is the wrong tool to paint a house has experience only with the older 3 and 4 stage systems. The 5 and 6 stage systems are substantially more powerful (indeed, double and more the power of older 3 stage) and even the guns have been redesigned to handle more viscous liquids.

Interestingly, I read somewhere that the reason 5 and now 6 stage systems have been developed is due to federal regulations that prohibit thinning of paints used on federal buildings. Manufacturers, so I understand, have responded by beefing up HVLP's capacity to handle latex paint without thinning.

Regardless, the issue remains of understanding the capacity of the new, vastly more powerful systems.

[Cameron Reddy]

BTW, I just watched Jeff's new video that comes with his new book "Spray Finishing Made Simple." While I'm very sure it's way too basic for most of you guys, for me, a complete beginner, it's EXCELLENT. Highly recommended.

[Phil Phelps]

Understood. I still don't think the HVLP is the way to go. The 5-6 stage probably out preforms the other guns, but I believe Jeff admits that running latex through them must be cut 10%. It would definately be less overspray than an airless. Your money, your job, your call. I hope it works out well.