Japanese Butterfly Chisels from Japan Woodworker

[Tom Henderson2]

I was looking for a "fishtail" or "Butterfly" chisel for cleaning out the sockets in blind dovetails.

I noticed this item in the Japan Woodworker catalog and wondered if anybody had any insights as to how well it would work.

http://tinyurl.com/23zn3xf

So I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts about this chisel... general quality, how it might perform in this kind of role, etc.

Also, I use a honing-guide when sharpening... I am presuming this will work in the Veritas Mk II honing guide.. if not, please let me know!

Thanks in advance...

-Tom in Ventura

[Paul Incognito]

I don't have any experience with them, but that sure is a pretty chisel!

[John Keeton]

Looks to be a very nice chisel, and probably would do great. The only question would be the taper ratio. I have the Blue Spruce fishtail chisel in the 8:1 ratio, and it is my "go to" chisel for cleaning out half blinds. One could get by with a little less angle, but not much less IMO.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/assets/images/product/JapanWoodworker/15.330.12.jpg

http://www.bluesprucetoolworks.com/PDGImages/Shopping_Cart_Images/FT.375_big.jpg

[David Weaver]

I'm sure it would be fine if it was steep enough (it may not be).

I think I would rather just grind an old chisel, though. It would be nearly free to do it, or better yet just make a tanged version out of O1 steel. That would allow you to make whatever you want, and still the cost would be very little. Something that size could easily be heat treated with a mapp torch.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a couple by Iyoroi. They are wonderful paring chisels - light, thin blades and balanced. Yes, you could use them with half-blind dovetails. I plan to add long paring handles to mine - the striking handle does not suit.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tri Hoang]

I had one of those for paring. The sides are a little too thick so I had to stone it down a little. The steel is excellent.

The problem with using these for paring is that it requires an angle of 30* or more to keep its edge well in hardwood. I think for dovetail, O1 steel at 20*-22* is a bit easier/smoother.

[Frank Drew]

I re-ground a 1/4" chisel into a spear (V) shape for just this task, although I've also used left and right skews; they're all good at getting into tight corners.

[David Weaver]

I have a couple by Iyoroi. They are wonderful paring chisels - light, thin blades and balanced. Yes, you could use them with half-blind dovetails. I plan to add long paring handles to mine - the striking handle does not suit.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek - do they have a more drastic taper than the one pictured from JWW?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

The outline is similar, but mine appear to be thinner, and the shoulders are likely to be slimmer as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Henderson2]

Hi John-

Hmmm.... I hadn't thought about the angle. I'll have to take another look at that.

But shame on you for tempting me with that Blue Spruce photo... egads those things are gorgeous.

Can you put that in a jig, or do you have to hand-sharpen it? It looks like the flat on the back may be wide enogh to clamp in a MkII jig....

-TH

[Pam Niedermayer]

How about Tasai special dovetail chisels (http://japantool-iida.com/chisel_others/2008/05/special-dovetail-chisel-by-tas.html) as an alternative? One of these days I'll probably get one of these, but meanwhile, this Tasai bachi nomi that I commisioned before the others were available (http://japantool-iida.com/chisel_others/2008/05/bachi-nomi-chisel-by-tasai.html) does the job just fine; so I suspect the Matsumura would be fine, too.

Other chisels that work fine are flat fishtail carving chisels and skew chisels. In some cases it might help to sharpen the back arrises.

LN has recently started making similar chisels (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=FTC), and then there are the wonderful Blue Spruce.

Pam

[Tony Shea]

Boy I was starting to wonder where all the Lie Nielson fans have gone, but Pam saved the day. I would not be without my Lie Nielson fishtail chisel, especially for half-blind dovetails. It does come in handy for other stuff as well. I would highly reccomend it as I have been extatic with it. I would suggest getting it with the paring handle as you really will never need to bang on it, more of a paring chisel. The angle is drastic therefore gets into very tight corners unlike the original posted. I think that it is even more drastic than Blue Spruce's version but am sure their would work just as well and probably looks better to boot. Blue Spruce tools are bar none in the beauty contest as well as function great. A good quality fishtail chisel is well worth the cost as it will last you a lifetime due to the frequency of its use. I'd scratch your original idea and go with the LN or BS. JMO

[Derek Cohen]

The original post was about the fishtail Japanese chisel. As I pointed out, this chisel is intended for paring - not for cleaning out the backs of half-blind dovetails. Further, most Japanese "dovetail" chisels have shoulders that are high and will bruise the tails if pushed in close to a side wall. They do not have theminimal shoulder of a LN or BS chisel.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Japanesechiselsprofile1.jpg

The Japanese fishtail chisel can be used for half-blind dovetails, however I'd get either the LN or the BS versions if you want them specifically for dovetails. They are simply more strongly made.

I have the BS fishtails and they are excellent. I also made a fishtail several years ago, and these are straight forward to do if you have a grinder.

Shop made fishtail (using an derelict Witherby). This was shaped to a 1:8 ratio ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailchisel1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John Keeton]

Hi John-

Hmmm.... I hadn't thought about the angle. I'll have to take another look at that.

But shame on you for tempting me with that Blue Spruce photo... egads those things are gorgeous.

Can you put that in a jig, or do you have to hand-sharpen it? It looks like the flat on the back may be wide enogh to clamp in a MkII jig....

-THTom, I do sharpen mine in the MKII, but it is tricky getting it square in the jig. I have not owned the LN chisels, but I do have a small herd of BS, and they are sweet! I also have a homemade fishtail, and while it does a very nice job, it does not hold an edge very well.

[David Weaver]

Further, most Japanese "dovetail" chisels have shoulders that are high and will bruise the tails if pushed in close to a side wall. They do not have theminimal shoulder of a LN or BS chisel.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Japanesechiselsprofile1.jpg



This is true. One that people can get that's not too expensive, if they want to try them, is the koyamas from Lee Valley (I think they just call them "japanese dovetail chisels"), and not the expensive mokume ones (though they're probably also fine).

They are delicate enough that I have to tape the inside joint on my index finger, or there will definitely be blood from rubbing around the sides on the chisel unintentionally while cleaning out tails.

They are very very nice chisels, and very hard.

[Tony Shea]

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/ftc_lg.jpg
Just so you can get an idea of what the Lie Nielsons' look like in comparison to others. There is a sharp angle towards the cutting end which is perfect for getting into tight areas such as half blind dovetails.