long Slot mortising bits...where to source

[Peter Quinn]

I am in need of a long slot mortising bit for a machine with let hand rotation only, which limits my choices slightly. I got them from Laguna originally, and they told me when I asked who the manufacturer was "We think its Garniga". Just what "we think" means I don't know. Why don't they "know" who makes their tooling, and why wouldn't they just tell me?

In any event they no longer list the long solid carbide slot mortiser bits on their site, there are no such bits in the Garniga catalogue, the onsrud 24-300 series is too short for entry doors, like a moron I didn't buy the 5/8" bit with the others when I had the chance to get them on sale, and now I can't find a supplier at all.

Anybody using a sot mortiser for 2 3/4" to 3 1/4" deep mortises that has a tooling suggestion? Any help is much appreciated.

[Peter Quinn]

Now I'm really scratching my head. I'm on the Laguna site, and I go to mortiser accessories via the mortiser page rather than the accessories page like I did last time, and there are 5/8" long slot mortiser bits staring at me. Actually I think they are osscilating bits, but that seems to make little difference. I swear they were not there yesterday when I looked.

It seems Felder has them too. I still can't find those sweet solid carbide left hand mills with chip breakers I bough from Laguna a while back though.

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter,
I bought some extra long manual slot mortise bits from Guhdo for lock mortising. They are not carbide but a better grade of steel than the ones Felder sells. They ordered them in From Germany but the cost was reasonable. They have been good about sourcing special tooling like this.

Joe

[Jeff Duncan]

You guys are buying the fancy stuff...I use end mills from MSC and they work fine for my needs. Most sizes <5/8" in offshore brands are under $20. The local ones are a bit more expensive, and the left turning "counter-clockwise" rotation is the norm I believe.

I haven't tried the carbide yet as they're more expensive and well....I just haven't had to. High speed steel is to my knowledge the better cut quality and they last a good long while.


good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

You guys are buying the fancy stuff...I use end mills from MSC and they work fine for my needs. Most sizes <5/8" in offshore brands are under $20. The local ones are a bit more expensive, and the left turning "counter-clockwise" rotation is the norm I believe.

I haven't tried the carbide yet as they're more expensive and well....I just haven't had to. High speed steel is to my knowledge the better cut quality and they last a good long while.


good luck,
JeffD

Actually right twist, or right rotation is the predominate standard. Most routers and drills turn right. Left rotation is reverse by most standards, and less available. Do you have a source for long left rotation HSS end mills? I've been looking, and right rotation are a dime a dozen, but I don;t see left rotation sources. I checked MSC, enco, and Master Carr among others, nothing doing in left twist.

I can tell you that I use end mills to mortise on the bridgeport at work, and the bits I am using on my mortiser at home cut quite a bit quicker and pretty much the same quality. I just sourced a 16MM (.629", close enough to 5/8" for me!) carbide slot mortiser from Felder today, made by Leitz I'm told, should do the job. Cheap it isn't, but I like the carbide.

Joe, thanks for the tip about Guhdo, I'll give them a look for next time.

[Jeff Duncan]

I thought you were looking for bits that turned to the left facing the slot mortiser? In other words counter clockwise rotation. That's the way my mortiser turns, and come to think of it the same direction as a drill press and router.
Is your machine 3 phase? Seems odd that yours would turn in the opposite of what's considered normal direction?
JeffD

[Joe Calhoon]

We used end mills a lot back when we built doors with loose tenons. They work best in machines with a 2 jaw mortise chuck. The machine we have now has a collet chuck that dislikes end mills. We do a lot of lock mortises that are 16mm, 7/8” and 1” wide by up to 4 ¾” deep. For these deep mortises I prefer 185 – 200mm long chipbreaker type bits that you drill a series of holes then clean it up with a back and fourth motion vs. the birds mouth type that goes in oscillating. Still pretty tedious compared to the Maka but a quick set up for one – off work.

Depending on the chuck style and speed the same bit may not work for everyone. I’ve wondered how a bit made like the Domino’s would work in a slot mortiser.

Joe

[Mike Heidrick]

Jeff, I am not sure which mortiser Peter is using - thought he had a laguna. My laguna will spin either way (reversable). Some of my laguna bits are leitz I believe. Onsurd should have what you need if you call them.

[Frank Drew]

Peter,

If finding the correct rotation bits continues to be a problem, why not install a reversing switch, like a double pole-double throw switch?

I love slot mortising, but I did find that as bit length and depth of cut increased, so did harmonic vibration, so a lighter touch than normal is needed the deeper you go.

Or get a Maka :D!

[Jeff Duncan]

Mike, my machine is 3 phase so it will run either direction.

Joe, my machine has a Wescott (sp?) style chuck which is the 2 jaw chuck fairly standard on slot mortisers from the ones I was looking at. What kind of mortiser do you have that uses a collet? And do you find it to work better than the Wescott style? I'm thinking it would probably have less runout than my chuck, which is somewhere in the 4 - 5 thousandths range.

As for the Maka's...well it is a good time to buy right now and I've seen quite a few on the used market;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Richard McComas]

I'm not clear on how your mortiser chucks you bit so I don't know if these will work for you or not.

I use these bird mouth bits I get from Felder. They don't care what the rotation is and they work very well.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/rmccomas0043/P4230173.jpg

[Peter Quinn]

Is your machine 3 phase? Seems odd that yours would turn in the opposite of what's considered normal direction?
JeffD

Seems odd indeed. Thats what I told Laguna once I figured out what I'd bought. If it had to spin only one way, why not right rotation! That may be why the next generation of Laguna platinum mortisers is reversible. It is single phase 220, the control block is buried in the motor and cannot be accessed (cheap chinese junk motor, but it works), thus rotation cannot be reversed. I found a motor with the same frame that could be reversed but the machine frankly isn't worth the investment. So its left twist bits or nothing for now.

I found the drill bits left twist in both HSS and carbide from Morris Wood tool, and I found the needed carbide cutter from Felder, a 16MM carbide tipped birds mouth made by Leitz. Should be here early next week. Those original bits I bought from Laguna are sweet, don't know who made them. I'll post some pics of the Felder cutter when it arrives, maybe I'll make some chips too. Its for a door for my house I'll make maybe next month.

[Joe Calhoon]

Jeff,
I’ve owned a few slot mortisers, my current machine is a Hoffmann 150 now made under license by Goetzinger Maschinen in Germany. Not to be confused with dovetail Hoffmann or Hofmann Maschinen. The latter also makes a nice mortiser. The 150 is better described as a frame drill with mortise capability.

A collet is no advantage for mortising. A lot of the better slot mortisers will do both mortising and frame drilling. If you’re doing a lot of drilling use the collet because they are more accurate, but for mortising the 2 jaw or Wescott style is better because they will take a lot of side pressure.

There is nothing like chopping mortises on a Maka but the setup and knife changing is time consuming for one off mortising. We still end up using the Hoffmann a lot for odd mortises just because it can be dialed in without a test cut.

Joe

[Jeff Duncan]

Peter, I wonder if they purposely set the rotation that way in order to hook people on buying cutters from them?

Joe, I have an old Bini so it's a pretty simple machine compared to the newer models. I only use it for mortise work and usually jig it up for production cutting. I have 29 passage doors coming up in May, so it will be pretty busy.
I came close to buying a used Maka, but I talked with several owners and it seems like they can be somewhat involved (and possibly difficult depending on who you talk to) in regards to setup and maintenance. Hence my choice to go with a simple, bullet proof machine. Though I may at some point move up to a newer machine with more features.

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, I wonder if they purposely set the rotation that way in order to hook people on buying cutters from them?

JeffD

I wondered that too, but I think it was just a head in butt engineering decision that proved to be short lived. I have the first edition Laguna platinum mortiser, based on the Rojek. They set it up a lot like the kind that hang off a jointer planer combo, so maybe they figured why not make it left rotation like those. Bad move. They quickly released the second version less than 6 months later, which is basically the Hammer mortiser, and is reversible. I believe thats what Mike H has? My motor is not reversible, all the leads are buried in the motor housing, and the machine is not worth upgrading the motor. It works decent, but its no gem. If the home shop ever becomes the business I envision, that baby is headed out.

In any even, I ordered a carbide tipped 16MM long birds mouth from Felder, and I'm not thrilled. The packaging was shoddy for a $110 tool with one pointy end. It was merely thrown in a basic small brown bubble wrap envelope, and it was shrink wrapped to a piece of cardboard, though it seemed to have been removed from the original packaging and rewraped with packing tape which was torn. A signature was required, my wife signed without looking at it, it was sticking out of the envelope which was also torn,. There is a small chip on the carbide on one side, but over all the darn thing hardly seems sharp to the touch at all. It does cut wood, but it tries to wander a bit, and it labors hard even in soft wood like poplar. It looks more like some crude trade school project than a fine cutting instrument, and at that price point and from Felder I expected more. They need to package cutters better than that for shipping, if I had received it it would have been rejected. And they need to make better cutters. I may send it out for sharpening to see if performance improves?

So I got Laguna CS on the phone. I sent an email, they responded quick as a wink, asked me to call. They told me they NEVER sold the 5/8" solid carbide cutters as they were prohibitively expensive. I have a distinct recollection that they did offer them in that size, but my brain is not what it used to be. So I ordered a HSS version from Laguna. I can't see myself pushing that Felder thing through QSWO in any efficient manner. These mortises will be pushing the upper limits of this tools capacity and I need every advantage I can get. The solid carbide cutters from Laguna (they still couldn't tell me the manufacturer!) are a thing of beauty. The 1/2" version flies through wood with ease, wish they had a 5/8" version. I'll let you know how it goes. As a fall back I can always go with a 1/2" tenon or two 3/8" tenons though not as deep.

[Jeff Duncan]

Peter, if it helps I use the double mortises all the time and they work great. I spend a little time getting my machine set just right so I can slot, flip, slot and move quickly.
Most of my interior doors are either hard maple or rift white oak, and I find the 5/8" mortises tougher to cut cleanly...they seem to want to grab the bit more. Using 2 3/8" mortises may take slightly longer, but they still go pretty quickly. And if you already have the cutters ready to go....may be worth it for you too.
good luck,
JeffD

BTW...wouldn't the jointer mounted slot mortisers also rotate counter clockwise? I thought they would rotate the same direction as the cutterhead?

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, if it helps I use the double mortises all the time and they work great. I spend a little time getting my machine set just right so I can slot, flip, slot and move quickly.
Most of my interior doors are either hard maple or rift white oak, and I find the 5/8" mortises tougher to cut cleanly...they seem to want to grab the bit more. Using 2 3/8" mortises may take slightly longer, but they still go pretty quickly. And if you already have the cutters ready to go....may be worth it for you too.
good luck,
JeffD

BTW...wouldn't the jointer mounted slot mortisers also rotate counter clockwise? I thought they would rotate the same direction as the cutterhead?

You would think so. Maybe its the ones on 5 function combo machines that hang off the front of a jointer/planer and thus spin clockwise? I don't have one so I don't know, but that was the logic described to me.

I may try some samples of the double mortise. i have the long carbide 3/8" cutters already. I guess I'm used to putting in the 5/8" or 3/4" mortises at work using an old bridgeport and long end mills, so mentally it feels natural to me. But I'm not sure this little machine of mine is every really going to punch mortises that big with accuracy. What spacing do you use for double 3/8" mortises in an 1 3/4" door, and are you doing loose tenons or integral? I'm planing a 3/4" panel groove and a stepped tenon with a 5/8" primary tenon and a 3/4" stub tenon. Not sure mentally how to translate that into double tenons?

[Rick Potter]

I just recieved my cutters from Laguna for the Platinum mortiser. They are made in Italy by Leitz. Cut great, and they cut in either direction.

Rick Potter

[Jeff Duncan]

OK I just pulled one of my 'extra's' from the last job off the rack. My spacing from the faces is roughly 9/32 nd's, doesn't have to be exact since I just flip the stock. The stiles and rails are 2-3/4" wide without the profile. I center the 1-1/2" wide mortises roughly 5/8" from the edges. I use loose tenons and make them snug to the faces, but a little shy in width to allow for a bit of play when gluing up.
This construction makes for a very strong joint. My doors are very light in that the stile & rails are narrow and the panels are 1/4" glass or acrylic. With a heavier door you would use wider tenons than I use, but you have a lot of additional meat as well since average rails sizes are 5" or more.
Once you go to loose tenon construction it really does make your life a lot easier. Making integral tenons is a good deal more tedious and time consuming, so I try to avoid it when I can. Some things still benefit from it, but I think you'll find loose tenons much easier for your doors. Best thing is probably to make up a sample joint to see how it will go together.
let me know if you have any other questions... if I could figure out how to post pics I'd try to put a couple up to show what I'm explaining:confused:
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

OK I just pulled one of my 'extra's' from the last job off the rack. My spacing from the faces is roughly 9/32 nd's, doesn't have to be exact since I just flip the stock. The stiles and rails are 2-3/4" wide without the profile. I center the 1-1/2" wide mortises roughly 5/8" from the edges. I use loose tenons and make them snug to the faces, but a little shy in width to allow for a bit of play when gluing up.
This construction makes for a very strong joint. My doors are very light in that the stile & rails are narrow and the panels are 1/4" glass or acrylic. With a heavier door you would use wider tenons than I use, but you have a lot of additional meat as well since average rails sizes are 5" or more.
Once you go to loose tenon construction it really does make your life a lot easier. Making integral tenons is a good deal more tedious and time consuming, so I try to avoid it when I can. Some things still benefit from it, but I think you'll find loose tenons much easier for your doors. Best thing is probably to make up a sample joint to see how it will go together.
let me know if you have any other questions... if I could figure out how to post pics I'd try to put a couple up to show what I'm explaining:confused:
JeffD

Thanks Jeff, I'm going to try and lay out a joint in poplar this weekend. I'm using 3/4" solid panels for the bottom, and probably 6 lites above the lock rail. I may go with 1/4" lamination glass as I'm told it has nearly the same insulation value as 1/2" double pane and looks more correct for an older house. The door will be QSWO, so light is not one of the ways I would describe it, and its a high traffic access point, so it needs to be tough. I think I'll do it square edge like a mission style, and I have a dial adjustable euro groover to make the panel grooves simple. Possibly a simple panel mold for the bottom too, not sure yet. Maybe lose tenons would be more straight forward.

[Peter Quinn]

As a follow up I received the 16MM (5/8") long slot mortising bit from Laguna today. I haven't had a chance to test it but it is made by Leitz, and it is a beautiful piece of tooling. It has the same geometry as the original solid carbide bits of unknown origin I bought from Laguna, but is clearly marked Leitz on the package and tool as well. It is sharp as a razor. It is also directional. Mine is left twist and will only cut left. It is a two flute staggered tooth chip breaker design, so I have high hopes. I'll probably spin it this weekend and give a report for any interested.