Hammer K3 Winner, Grizzly G0623X, and Slider Size. Rikon?

[Steve Woolf]

After hours of internet searching I'm now convinced that a slider is the way to go, and that we are in the early stages of a trend that will have us all using them before too long. Personally, at 68 years old, I can't wait!

I registered on the Felder site and got a phone call about some deep discounts on the Hammer K3 machines, sales person emailed me some useful info and they're sending me catalogs. It was good to make the contact and learn about their aggressive marketing to exactly the likes of me -- serious hobbyist, retirement age, ready and able to buy quality for the joy of it, and adventuresome to transition to a euro style table saw.

Grizzly G0623X versus the Hammer K3 models-- no doubt that Felder/Hammer quality has got to surpass Grizzly (though I wonder whether Grizzly's quality would still satsify), but my dilemma right now is not so much about that, or even about the cost. My problem is what length sliding table to aim for. Clearly the longer ones are more useful, both for sheet goods and ripping rough lumber, but I'm not a production woodworker and I wonder whether most of the time the long table would be in my way. After all, for sheet goods, like most of us, I've typically cut them down roughly with a hand held circular saw first, then brought them to the table saw. For the amount of casework I'll be doing, I won't mind doing that if the slider is too short to cut full sheets, and I'd still enjoy all the other benefits of the slider. For ripping lumber longer than the slider, one of the videos I've seen shows a plywood sled for rips with he slider locked.

I'd appreciate any comments you-all might have on:

--Sliding table length: What are the deciding factors? What workarounds for shorter sliders? Is the Grizzly 63" enough? Is the K3 78" enough? Will I be sorry going with, say, the K3 48" version? Why will I be sorry?

--Hammer vs Grizzly: Where would a hobbyist notice the quality differences? What features does one have over the other? Is it true that the Hammer rip fence complaints have been addressed in the newest "Winner" models? Are you Grizzly owners still lusting after a "true" euro saw, or has Grizzly actually achieved that?

--Rikon sliding table saw. Happy compromise? Sad compromise? Do you, or did you, own one?

[Shiraz Balolia]

Steve - hopefully someone with an actual Grizzly G0623X saw will chime in instead of the people that make assumptions. The factory that makes this particular saw is very good and they also make some of our best bandsaws.

[Jim Becker]

Steve, relative to your question about the slider capacity, what kind of work you intend to do with it is going to affect your decision. For primary use as crosscutting you can get away with a lower capacity than you can if you intend to rip. I rip. Both sheet goods and solid stock. My slider is 8'6" and it meets my needs. The downside is that for that capacity, you need a total of 19' for slider wagon travel from end to end. I fortunately have that!!!

[Tom W Armstrong]

An important point, and one I'm trying to understand too, is whether or not the 78" K3 slider can handle a full sheet of ply. I'm going through a similar decision now and if I can't get a big enough slider in my 22x22 space for a full sheet, I might as well stick with a track saw to at least make the first few cuts, and go with a smaller slider in the end to more match my space.

[Terry Teadtke]

If so what model and what do you think of the fence?

Terry

[Richard Link]

Just a few opinions. Take this with a grain of salt since I've only had my slider for 9 months.

I have a smaller space then you do and opted to get the 9 foot sliding table on my Felder. This is really nice for ripping long boards and makes dealing with full plywood sheets easy. With some creative "angling" I was able to make the slider fit and be functional within my smaller space. I have had no regrets about getting the longer table.

I was originally concerned about that long table getting in the way but it really hasn't. Remember that this table slides, so it can be effortlessly moved around as needed. To be honest, I actually leave my big outrigger mounted all the time and just move it around when I need to to put the empty space where I need it. My outrigger is also so overbuilt that I occasionally use it as an auxiliary workbench/assembly area when I am not cutting. I just toss a hollow core door up onto the outrigger and, presto, a huge work surface that I can move around at will with one hand.

Certainly, you should do the calculations to see how such a large item will fit into your workspace. I know that some slider owners who work in a garage simply need to open one of the garage doors to accommodate the full slider travel for a full plywood sheet. Remember that you can place the machine diagonally and gain valuable space to slide. I went through the trouble of modeling the whole space in Sketchup prior to ordering my table. With that model, I was able to try 20 different positions and orientations for the sliding table (as well as several sizes of table) to assure I could create a functional setup for the larger table. This was a huge advantage, in my opinion and was well worth the effort.

As with many things, be careful about being penny wise and pound foolish with the shorter slider. You are contemplating spending a large chunk of change on the "ultimate" tablesaw. If you can develop a machine placement strategy that will accommodate the longer table, I would encourage you to go that route and not regret it later. A shorter table is going to significantly compromise some of the "slider advantages" that you are seeking. On the other hand, if other machinery or requirements make it impossible to use the longer table in your space, then you know what to do.

[Richard Link]

Just a brief follow up to show you one approach.

The attached photos show the slider positioned in my space. The second photo shows the range of motion of the large table (forward is red and backward is blue). Note that the range of motion backward is larger than forward on the Felder since the table goes completely out of the way to allow access to the sawblade, etc.

With the saw in this position, we can see that there is no conflict at all going forward. As it turns out the only conflict I end up with is with the door when the slider is pushed completely backward. As it turns out, this is no issue when cutting, even full plywood sheets. I can also access the blade easily. If I want complete access to the inner compartment, and need to get the last couple of inches of travel, I simply open the garage door briefly. For the record, haven't had that door open in 4 months with this setup...

Note that the Felder group on Yahoo has a copy of the footprint dimensions of all their machines (and probably hammer as well) with the sliders in full extension forward and backward. This was the data I used to model from. You can see, I think, how this can really help you to visualize your space constraints.

[Mark Woodmark]

I just ordered the Felder K500 Pro. I am suppose to get it in June. I looked at Grizzly, Laguna, MiniMax, Hammer, Rojek, Kufo. I was going to go with the Hammer K3 Winner Comfort, but decided to spend a couple hundred more for the Felder so I could get the X Roll table. I know some of the Lagunas are made in Asia, I wonder if this particular Grizzly is made by Scheppach. I know some of their other sliders and J/P combos are Scheppach

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

I went through the same decision matrix as you are going through now about 1 & 1/2 years ago.

I was contemplating the Grizzly 10" slider at the time (can't remember the#), MM & Felder. Since I subscribe to the "buy high, sell low" theory, I ended up buying the MM at the height of the euro and paid too much. I say this bcz the exchange rate put the Felder way out of my price range. It was nearly $20K for the 500 series combo at the time. If I'd waited a few months, I would have bought the Felder for what they are selling them for now.

I ended up with a MM CU300 with the 6' slider. I second what Richard said. Don't be penny foolish when your slapping down this much money.

Yes, I can do most of what I want with the slider I have, but at the times when I need a longer one I wish I'd spent the extra thou.

Someone asked about the fence. Mine is the European style. I've read many posts by those that are not happy with it. I've never had a problem. It comes with a bar that you can install (don't have to) for extra rigidity at the tail of the fence. Alone it's not as strong as the Beismeyer, but it has much more optional functionality. With the bar in place, it doesn't deflect at all.

Overall I've been happy with the quality of the MM and, when there have been small problems, the service has been very good from them. It did take awhile to get used to the "slider" concept and working around the combo, but I've become accustom to it.

Hope that helps.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have a few fairly expensive tools, mostly MiniMax/SCMI and they are a joy to work with and a point of pride in my shop.

I do the same arguing with myself over cost. My latest aquisition is a SCMI S520 with a Tersa head. It was a touch over $9k, plus the cost of a larger 3 ph converter for my shop to run it. I have a small business so it will take a long time to pay for itself but......

Each and every time I use it I am happy that I spent the money for such an awesome machine. Hard to explain really, but it makes me do better work. I would buy it again even though I could have bought a planer for 20% of the cost that would have done basically the same job. But not quite.....;)

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Steve, I have a B3 Winner with the 1250mm sliding table.

The winner has the round bar guide for the fence, which is nicer than the simple fence.

I ordered mine with the following options

- CSA electrical approval
- Dado capability
- rip fence with round guide bar
- micro adjust for rip fence
- mechanical scoring unit
- cutting width 31" with additional table
- 1650mm crosscut fence extension
- tilting power feeder bracket

I would have to measure mine, however the crosscut capacity at 90 degrees is about 42 inches which is fine for my application.

As others have mentioned, get the longest slider you can accomodate.

I also have the tilting spindle shaper in my machine, is it ever great to have a sliding table/tilting spindle shaper. You should perhaps consider that instead of the K3, which is what I did.

It's my second Hammer machine, I'm very pleased with it.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. About the fence, I had a General 650 with a Biessemeyer fence before, I like the Winner fence better.

The Winner fence with the fine adjust option has a knob that when you turn it, the fence creeps along, without coming out of square like the Bies. (The Bies squares up fine when locked, it's just a PITA to adjust).

The Hammer fence also allows you to use it as a regular fence, a short fence, or a low fence, very handy.

[Tom W Armstrong]

Steve, Where are you? This is your thread... These guys have about talked me into a new K3 Winner with comfort package. Help.

Rod, I considered the B3, but they have the best deals on the K3 right now and I can wait on the shaper.

[Steve Woolf]

Thanks for asking -- I am still here, and still wondering what direction I will go. I'm talking on the phone with owners all over the country, talking to local woodworkers, looking at their machines, and looking in dealer showrooms. I will not buy a machine until I have a real physical feel for it, and until I get a real feel of how users actually use the sliding table feature, and until I have drawn the saws in scale on the floor plan of my shop to see how it will change my layout and work flow.

Tom, my understanding is that while it's very nice to rip 8' sheets, one can be quite happy with a slider that can only cross cut the full sheet.

I am still intrigued by the Rikon, having talked with two satisfied owners. I would have to chop off some of the rip fence guide bars to make it work in my space. The price is such that if I end up hating it, I can sell it at a relatively small loss. My guess is that I would love it and not think about what I am missing not having the slider right next to the blade, and not having a scoring blade and riving knife.

One user said he can have 3 different setups at the same time on his 10' slider.

One asked, how many sheets will you cut in a year -- 100? or 10? I said more like 10. He said I could be happy with a standard table saw, especially the Sawstop for its safety feature. My reaction in a showroom was that I loved the look and feel of the Unisaw. So that puts me back to considering a slider length of exactly zero. Yes, I am still considering that option -- to stay with the familiar, get the best cabinet saw, dont change my basic work habits, don't upset the configuration of my small shop, dont crowd it with a mongo immovable euro slider, that its just beyond what I should have for the scale of work I will do, and that will snowball me into more expensive tooling and upgrading all my other machines.

But the sliding table urge persists and the research goes on, and I will take my time with it until all my unanswered questions are resolved by the irrational decision to make the move. The actual answers will come only after I start using my new machine, whatever that turns out to be.

My question about Grizzly -- Where are you, Grizzly slider owners?

Steve

[Shiraz Balolia]

My question about Grizzly -- Where are you, Grizzly slider owners?

Steve

It is my understanding that you asked about a very specific model - G0623X, but are looking at various sizes of other brands. We carry 8 different models. All except one are made in Taiwan. The exception is the G0674 that is made in Germany and is really a fantastic deal at $7995.00.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-315mm-6-5-HP-3-Phase-Sliding-Table-Saw/G0674

It is possible that you will get more responses if you expanded your request to other Grizzly sliders.

[Steve Woolf]

Shiraz, will Grizzly provide contacts where customers can talk to owners and view Grizzly machines in their local area?

[Tom W Armstrong]

I am still intrigued by the Rikon, having talked with two satisfied owners. I would have to chop off some of the rip fence guide bars to make it work in my space. The price is such that if I end up hating it, I can sell it at a relatively small loss. My guess is that I would love it and not think about what I am missing not having the slider right next to the blade, and not having a scoring blade and riving knife.


Thanks for the detail on the Rikon, not many on SMC have much experience with it. Also, I think Woodcraft has a deal on it right now for something around $1500 so take that into consideration as well.

Personally, I've decided on the Hammer Slider for my next saw.

Steve, also, as Shiraz said, you can search for specific Grizzly models and usually get lots of threads. Here's one with lots of pictures and discussion on the G0623X: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=107213&highlight=g0623x

[Shiraz Balolia]

Shiraz, will Grizzly provide contacts where customers can talk to owners and view Grizzly machines in their local area?


Yes, still standard operating procedure for us.

Call our toll free number and ask for a customer that is closest to you that has bought the machine you are interested in. If there is one close by, that has given their permission, we will give you the contact information and then you can speak to that person to get an unbiased opinion. "Unbiased" because we have no idea what they are going to say.

[John Harden]

Steve,

Your idea of wanting to see the machines is a good one. Felder/Hammer, MM and Grizzly will all provide you with contact information for someone near you that owns the machines you're interested in.

I went this route when making my decision and can't stress enough how valuable it was. You can read internet postings and look at catalogues until you're blue in the face, but all of that pale's in comparison to being able to see and use one that is installed in a home shop.

+1 on Richard Link's advice about slider length too. I don't think I've ever heard someone complain that their slider is too long.

My garage is 19.5' front to back and I place my slider such that I can rip or crosscut a 8' long (or wide) board and the board will "just" clear the blade without me having to open the garage door. My slider is 9' long and I went with a saw/shaper and use it for both.

Aside from looking at the machines first hand, perhas the best advice I can give you is to choose your maching options carefully. You can always add extra extension tables or other doo-dads later. Adding machine options such as a longer slider, electronic height adjustments, more horsepower, variable speed motors, etc., can be done, but is very expensive. Take your time and choose what you want the first time.

From my experience, I'd steer you toward Felder/Hammer or Minimax. Having said that, I checked out the Grizzly offerings at AWFS last year in Vegas and was impressed. They look to be a good value for the money. Still, given that it's my last saw/shaper, I opted to go with a European manufacturer.

Regards,

John

[ed vitanovec]

Thanks for posting the link to my G0623X. It is a really nice saw and I have been really happy with it.

Regards!
Ed

[Steve Woolf]

Yes, still standard operating procedure for us.

Call our toll free number and ask for a customer that is closest to you that has bought the machine you are interested in. If there is one close by, that has given their permission, we will give you the contact information and then you can speak to that person to get an unbiased opinion. "Unbiased" because we have no idea what they are going to say.

I called, and they had no users for me to contact. The more I study the market, the better the G0623x looks, for its narrower footprint and for its price. User posts are useful but limited in number. I still want to see one.

Steve

[Bill Wyko]

Steve, relative to your question about the slider capacity, what kind of work you intend to do with it is going to affect your decision. For primary use as crosscutting you can get away with a lower capacity than you can if you intend to rip. I rip. Both sheet goods and solid stock. My slider is 8'6" and it meets my needs. The downside is that for that capacity, you need a total of 19' for slider wagon travel from end to end. I fortunately have that!!!



Jim, you're spoiled.:D I can only dream of such capacity.:o

[bill bruno]

Hi Steve,

I'm also in the market for a slider. When you view the Grizzly G0623X be sure to check the position of the sliding table support leg at the front of the saw (where you begin the cut). I think the support leg might interfere with the ergonomics of simply using the saw. I visited a Hammer B3 user and the slider does not have a supporting leg (as the Grizzly does). I found the ergonomics of the Hammer much friendlier. Hope this helps.

bill

[Steve Woolf]

Friends,

Today I bought a Sawstop, professional model, 3hp 1ph 36"rip. Rented a van, drove about 70 miles to the nearest dealer that had one in stock, and jockeyed it into my (on grade) shop myself. I talked to 4 dealers. The item is fair traded so their prices were the same, the differences being in availability, distance, shipping and lead time. I called Sawstop tech support twice, once before the sale to check on weights and sizes of the packages, and once after to ask a question about attaching the mobile base. It was altogether a great day, and of course a great relief -- I will no longer obsess over the prospect of purchasing a sliding table saw. I will get some sleep.

My decision not to get a slider was largely based on my ability to handle the purchase, shipping, and setup myself, locally. And once set up, the cabinet saw will not hog shop space, and be easily movable. Of course there were other reasons...

A big factor was realizing I get my woodworking kicks mainly from hand work, and while I love my machines, I do not need better ways of machining wood. For the machine to replace my contractor saw, I need better dust collection, more stability and strength, and more safety. I did get excited about sliders, but only after I saw one in the Grizzly catalog -- I was not originally looking for more/better functionality. I am 68 years old, and want to work at a comfortable pace without the pressure of production schedules and with minimal overhead. I do not need to get the job done faster. Or even easier, for that matter. And I do not intend to build lots of casework, just one-off creative furniture and artistic pieces. After getting excited about what sliders can do with solid wood, I ultimately conclude that it's panel production they do best, and I'd have one for sure if I were in business doing that.

Some will laugh, knowingly, but I admit my wife had something to do with this. I actually asked her opinion, knowing that the technical issues would be given second priority. I needed that perspective. She was intrigued by the Sawstop hot dog demo. (Of course she was -- it's focus on security, not to mention phallic symbolism, is blatantly aimed at our women!). She pointed out that I play cello in amateur string quartets much more than I do woodworking, a consideration I had thought much about but had not let it pull me off the slider kick. Having her say it made a difference.

Industrialists need to get the best machinery wherever and from whomever it is sold, but as an individual I did not feel comfortable with the prospect of buying directly from a company based in Europe, particularly in a dubious economic climate that currently clouds the industrial machinery world. That's not to say that "made in USA" is important -- I don't think it is. What I feel is important is that the company is based in my own culture -- my geopolitical culture as well as the culture of the small scale woodworker -- and is focused on supporting it, and is successful doing that. Buying from a successful American company feels right to me. Dealing with U.S. reps who sell to the whole country from a distant location without sufficient or accessible display space, and who themselves experience culture clashes with their own European companies, is scary to me.

And finally, finding the saw actually in stock at a supplier I had already done some business with in the past, was irresistible.

Thanks to all the woodworkers across the country, from all walks of life, who were kind enough to share their slider experiences with me -- using Hammer, Minimax, Grizzly, Rikon, Casolin, and others, all quite pleased with their machines. And thanks to all who share on this forum. I look forward to keeping in touch. You all are really nice folks and I am happy to be in your company as a woodworker, if not a slider owner!

Steve

[Van Huskey]

Congrats, I am sure you will love your saw. It is noce to compress from the analysis process, although I love it, the grind does get old!

[Joe Jensen]

Steve, I recently upgraded to a Felder KF700SP saw/shaper combo after 30 years of using cabinet saws. I did a ton of reading on the internet before calling Felder and SCMI/Minimax. I was pleasantly surprised by the helpfullness of both firms. In my research I found a couple of consistent themes.
1) If ordering new, don't skimp on options. Buy all they you want because it's cost prohibative or impossible to add them later. Many folks said they skimped on options and then they ended up selling the first machine at a big loss and ordering another one configured the way they wanted. #1 reason was the slider was too short.
2) Slide length is the hardest decision. Slider saws take a lot of room. Mine has a 9ft slider which allows me to have the fence on one end and cut a perfect edge on the 8ft side of a sheet of plywood. Also, many hobby owners evolve to using the slide for almost all cuts. The perfect edge off a slider is very addictive. Many of those who upgraded to a longer slider cited ripping hardwood as the main reason for getting a longer one. The saw I bought had 2600mm, 2800mm and 3000mm options. Some larger saws go as long as 3200mm. The 2800mm (9ft) and one reason is that you can run it front to back in most garages. I don't have mine set that way, but if I bought longer that would not be an option.

I saw a Felder 700 series on ebay that looked like it could be a deal as the seller had some very tough restrictions and didn't know what they were selling. In the end I was too gready and I lost the bid but that pushed me over the fence and firmly into the "I'm buying one" camp. I searched the used sites and found a really nice Felder KF700SP that was almost perfect for me at a really good price. When the site contacted the owner he changed his mind and didn't sell. I watched for a few more weeks and the Felder sales guy turned me on to a couple of used machine leads but one had too short of a slider and one was sold already. About a month into my search the Felder sales guy called and said they were having a big end of year sale that he could do a new one for about a grand more than a used one. I ended up ordering one and over a couple week period I added a ton of upgrades to it.

I'd say start by looking for a good used one. If you had the space, there are tons of really good saw only machines out there with 9ft or 10ft sliders. There have been quite a few since I ordered mine in Oct 09, and a few that made me regret ordering new. You can go pretty crazy on options, and I did. But, I don't regret it at all. Every time I go into the garage I smile, and every time I use it I have a huge grin.

[Joe Jensen]

DOH, just saw that you bought a Sawstop. Great saw, congrats. I had a SawStop ICS and I really liked it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Steve, glad to hear you bought a new saw, I'm sure you'll enjoy it very much........Regards, Rod.

[Richard Link]

This was a good thread and lots of interesting points were made. Congrats on your new saw. I'm sure you will love it.

Just a quickie on the safety issue, from the perspective of someone who replaced a Sawstop ICS (original) with a Felder cf741 slider. I definately feel safer using the slider. I was a great fan of the sawstop brake feature although I never tripped in the entire time I had the saw. On the other hand, the brake doesn't protect you from kickback and projectiles. Yes, I was also impressed with the sawstop riving knife and guard system, which are also good. On the other hand, my hands basically never get even close to the business end of the Felder. Everything gets vac clamped to the sliding table (for the most part) and I happily push the carriage from the side a good several feet away.

An example: yesterday I was making tapered legs for a table. With the old saw, I had to run my tapering jig along the rip fence which put me in line with the outfeed end of the blade. With the slider, the taper jig attaches to the sliding table and I can taper legs in comfort and safety from several feet away.

At any rate, not trying to hijack the thread at this late date. I do think that sliders are inherently safer than standard cabinet saws. Now all we need is a slider with the brake feature....

Enjoy your new Sawstop!

[Steve Rowe]

There is a lot of good advice here. One option is to attend the IWF in Atlanta this August and look the machines over for yourself. This way you can get to touch and feel each make although not necessarily all models will be there. It is also a means to talk with other users at the show since generally, a number of owners have a tendency to congregate in the booths of the machine brands they own. At the show, sometimes you can swing a deal with a show machine so the dealer doesn't have to pay to ship the machine back to his showroom.

There has been a lot said about slider length and for good reason as it can make the difference between the saw doing what you need it to do or not. Be aware that just because a machine has a longer sliding table than another machine doesn't mean it has a greater capacity. What matters is how much of the table travels from the beginning of the cut to the cut clearing the back of the blade. A number of us slider owners use the sliding table to rip stock and the length of the rip in this manner is determined by the table size. I use the slide to process more solid stock than I do sheet stock and find the longer length the right choice for me. My table length is 3.3m and it will cut the full length of the table. The downside is that fully retracted, it is 3 inches from my garage door and fully extended to the blade change position, it is 3 inches from the back wall.

If you turn out to be one who likes to rip stock using the standard cabinet saw technique, you may be happier with the shorter sliding table since it will be more akin to a typical cabinet saw. Unfortunately, if you are like the rest of us, this is something you cannot answer until after you have made the purchase. I do encourage you to visit some hobbiest shops that have sliders, ask how they use it and what they do (or do not) like about it.
Steve

[Brian Ross]

I have an SCMI 350N that I purchased used 3 years ago. It is a 2004 model. I paid $9000 USD for it. I could have easily bought a new Mini max for about the same price but this is double the saw. At the time they were about $16,000 new. It has a 10ft 6 in slider and has never let me down. I did pay to have an SCMI tech set the saw up when i got it home and in the past 3 years I have not had to adjust the miter guage and it cuts square every time. I use it mostly for cutting sheet goods. Altendorf sliders are readily available in the used market and I have seen WA 8's in the $8500 range and a year old. Alot of the bigger sliders are available only in 3 phase. I run a 20 hp Rotary Phase converter that I bought from American Rotary. An excellent company to deal with. The big advantage of 3 phase is that there is a lot of used equipment available in 3 phase and the prices are a lot better as there is not the same market as in single phase dominated by hobbyists who will pay exhoribant prices for used equipment.

Brian