Taper sawn shingle jig?

[Larry Edgerton]

I am placing this in this section because I believe this is more up your alley. I want to cut siding shingles for my new house using a 20" Delta bandsaw, so although it is using a power tool, its still kind of the hard way.;)

I have been searching for either a jig already made or pictures or drawings of one that will work with a vertical band saw. I have some ideas in mind but I know someone somewhere has made one, so if I can avoid some trial and error that would be great. I want it to be safe enough that my wife would feel comfortable making some of them as we would need 19 square.

I found some for horizontal lumber mills where the blade travels, but that idea does not really apply to a vertical band saw.

I thought about hand splits as I have a froe but they use a lot of material and do not fit as tightly as I am looking for. I am building out of stress skin panels, and so want to protect the integrity of the panel. The outside skin is part of the structure. Also I am doing a recreation of an old schoolhouse, and the sawn shingles would be more in keeping I am thinking.

My ideas always get so complicated that I never get to it. I'm looking for that "why did'nt I think of that" sort of simple solution.

I know I am in the wrong section, and I apoligise, but there are some great ideas floating around in here. I lurk here a lot as some of you fellows put me to shame with your talent with hand tools.

Thank you, Larry

[george wilson]

Shingles in the museum were split and tapered by hand with a shaving horse. However,you could just cut them parallel. Then,take a 2" X 6". Cut several long inclines into it to lay your flat shingles into. then,run them through a thickness planer. They have done that in the maintenance area when they needed thousands. They used a long 2x6,about 16' long. You could make a shorter one that you could more easily saw on your bandsaw to make the inclines. Or,make the inclines separately,and glue them to the 2x6. It doesn't have to be pretty. You might have to install some sharp points in the deep end of the inclines to keep the shingles from jumping out. I think they just ran them the wrong way here,which didn't make for the smoothest planing. They could have installed them roughly planed side down. I wasn't that concerned about their process.

[Jim Koepke]

Larry,

You are forgiven. Junior may come up with a better way. Until then, my solution would be to make a carriage that holds the wood to be cut at an angle to the blade. It will need an index guide as you will make one cut, flip the piece being cut and then make the next cut. I use this method for cutting wedges on a band saw. Not needing accuracy, I just use a miter guide set at a few degrees from square. For repeatable shingles, you likely want to come up with a way to index them. This could just be a block of wood taped to the table.

Hope this works for you,

jim

[george wilson]

I think he will go through a truck load of bandsaw blades. how much do they cost to just buy them ? Is there a reason he has to make them ?

[Jim Terrill]

I think he will go through a truck load of bandsaw blades. how much do they cost to just buy them ? Is there a reason he has to make them ?

Depends what wood you are talking about. I sided a house with perfectly clear, nothing narrower that 6" pre finished cedar shakes when I was working construction. I was told the materials cost was 100-150k. Granted it was a 3m house, but materials can be expensive if you only want the best. Thinking back to the last time I looked at lowes, they were over $100 a bundle for unfinished clear western red cedar, so the stuff isn't cheap. As for the best way to make them yourself, they did it on dirty jobs by hand, freehanding them through the blade by eye alone. I wouldn't be rushing to put my hands that close to the blade and the results are not going to be as exact as using a sled, but it may be worth a try. I'd think that the best way to do it accurately would be to make something akin to a taper leg jig but with a taller fence.

[Larry Edgerton]

I think he will go through a truck load of bandsaw blades. how much do they cost to just buy them ? Is there a reason he has to make them ?

Cost is over $300 square. I am building this house for cash, I can cut the wood on the property, and so my end cost will be time, but time at home instead of time on a jobsite, something I have come to value. It may not work out where it is feasable, but I would like to have the ability to make shingles anyway.

I have an idea for a jig made to run in the T-slots. It is a steel plate with a lazer cut slot[ no warpage] with a center post vertical, fixed at the midpoint. I'm working on a project for an Alro Steel exec, so I can get the steel cut reasonable.

Then there would be two posts on another plate that pivots off of that center post, one say six inches in front and one six inches behind the center. These would swivel back and forth with adjustable stops to allow changing the butt width of the shingles. I could easily hook up an set of air cylinders to tip it back and forth, but I'm not sure that would be necessary.

My sticking point is how do I hold the cedar block? If I push it with a clamp it will pinch at the blade, but I don't have enough meat on the shingle side of the blade to clamp anything.

I could do it with the above jig just by hand, but then I would not want my wife running it, and I have found that I am most likely to get hurt when doing repetitive work, my mind wanders off to other things.....

Anyway... I appreciate all of your thoughts and look forward to any and all ideas.

Thanks, Larry

[Leigh Betsch]

how about pulling a vacuum to hold the shingle to the metal fixture?

[Zach England]

Cost is over $300 square. I am building this house for cash, I can cut the wood on the property, and so my end cost will be time, but time at home instead of time on a jobsite, something I have come to value. It may not work out where it is feasable, but I would like to have the ability to make shingles anyway.

I have an idea for a jig made to run in the T-slots. It is a steel plate with a lazer cut slot[ no warpage] with a center post vertical, fixed at the midpoint. I'm working on a project for an Alro Steel exec, so I can get the steel cut reasonable.

Then there would be two posts on another plate that pivots off of that center post, one say six inches in front and one six inches behind the center. These would swivel back and forth with adjustable stops to allow changing the butt width of the shingles. I could easily hook up an set of air cylinders to tip it back and forth, but I'm not sure that would be necessary.

My sticking point is how do I hold the cedar block? If I push it with a clamp it will pinch at the blade, but I don't have enough meat on the shingle side of the blade to clamp anything.

I could do it with the above jig just by hand, but then I would not want my wife running it, and I have found that I am most likely to get hurt when doing repetitive work, my mind wanders off to other things.....

Anyway... I appreciate all of your thoughts and look forward to any and all ideas.

Thanks, Larry

This is what I was thinking--sort of like a tenon jig for a table saw.


I'd really like to see how you end up doing this. I am remodeling my front porch and want to use some cedar shakes, but my eyes bugged out when I saw the prices. As I recall it was about $12/SF.

[mike holden]

Larry,
The Welbeck Sawmill in Ontario cut shingle in a very different fashion.
The log was debarked and put on a sled, the sled then moved the log under a circular saw which cut down to the pith, then the log was rotated a few degrees and sawn again and again until the entire circumference was cut, Then the log was sliced into shingle length sections and the shingles snapped off the core by hand.
Now, you cant do this at home, but, the important thing to note is that the outside of the log was the wide end of the shingle. This may be important for longevity or water runoff or something. The old guys generally had a reason for why they did things.
Mike

[Matt Hankins]

Here is a shingle mill as discussed above. The billet is clamped top and bottom and is pushed past the blade the shingle falls away and the billet is rotated. The slot on the drum to the right is for jointing the edge.

Matt



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[Larry Edgerton]

Larry,
The Welbeck Sawmill in Ontario cut shingle in a very different fashion.
The log was debarked and put on a sled, the sled then moved the log under a circular saw which cut down to the pith, then the log was rotated a few degrees and sawn again and again until the entire circumference was cut, Then the log was sliced into shingle length sections and the shingles snapped off the core by hand.
Now, you cant do this at home, but, the important thing to note is that the outside of the log was the wide end of the shingle. This may be important for longevity or water runoff or something. The old guys generally had a reason for why they did things.
Mike

Mike
I don't have a clear picture of what you describe but it sounds like a radial cut siding mill, which is the proper way to cut bevel siding, that being all cuts aimed at the heart. I have never seen shingles cut this way, seems they would be too prone to breakage with the short grain running across. Siding has to bend to work properly but shingles are exposed to more water and impact. There is one old radial cut siding mill still running out in the VT./NH. area still, but they get a premium for their product. I suppose as the old growth cedar is used up and smaller trees are necessary we will see more radial mills, or more vinyl?:(

[Larry Edgerton]

how about pulling a vacuum to hold the shingle to the metal fixture?

Leigh

I am not sure about the vacuum as the cedar will be kind of rough but.....

Just seing your name reminded me of that dado machine that I bought from you that is now sitting in my corner, bright red by the way, and still unused. Seemed like I needed one of those.......

Anyway....... The guide rails on that machine may be just the ticket for some thing that I am not at all clear on just yet. but gears are turning. I may be able to use those to make a jig that does not ride on the table but instead on one side so the block can be securely fastened.

I'm going to go get a LaBatts and think about this.

Later.

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry,
The old guys generally had a reason for why they did things.
Mike

Mike, I am working on a 130 year old Italianate in Jackson, and many of the parts are still original, including the siding, two of the metal roofs, and most of the trim. It is interesting to see how they coped with situations and the things they buried in areas where they could not be seen. I am tearing off a section of metal roof tomorrow that is 130 years old, but finally succumbing to rust. The boards under the metal run perpendicular to the eave and have troughs milled in them, apparently so that if the tin leaks there is a secondary drainage? Not sure on that one. The metal itself is tin, about 2'x3' with folded seams that interlock and were then soldered. Couldn't find any replace them and when I gave them a price on copper which I can work, they decided on shingles. Copper is crazy right now!

It is interesting to note that they sided the whole house "before" they added any of the ornate porches. They coped all of the porch columns to the siding with hand saws, and did an amazing job. At first I was stumped by this, but then I realized that they did not have caulk as we know it so that was not an option. None of the walls behind the columns had any rot whatsoever. If there was a leak the siding made it stay away from the house apparently. The columns were nailed from the inside through the 1" T&G subsheathing, so there were no fastener holes to worry about. I have a huge jug of the original square nails should you ever need any by the way.

Roofs were built up against the siding as well, and although I did find some problems in that area it was more because the artistic overtook the practical in a few areas.

It has been interesting and educational.

I had to make exact copys of all of the moldings out of Azek, a plastic product, Ironically because they wanted it to last 100 years.;)

Go figure.

[Leigh Betsch]

Well my metal roof is only 7 years old and leaking already. I have a couple of carpenters working on it. Apparently the guys that built it originally didn't do things to last 10 years. Course we haven't had rain since February so I guess it does matter much.
Sounds like a wild idea to make a shingle jig out of a panel router! You gotta get a picture posted of that one.

[mike holden]

Larry,
You are picturing it correctly. The initial cuts to form the shingles are radial to the trunk.
Thinking about it, that puts the grain in an orientation that minimizes curling, which would seem to be an advantage. Disclaimer: I have only seen this one sawmill in action, do not own, nor have I ever investigated shingle roofs, so I can only speak to the one sawmill and how it made shingles - everything else is supposition.
That said, I would look into how shingles were used, what grain orientation and such before thinking of how to cut them.
Mike