Box #2

[Paul Incognito]

Finished this up this morning. Thanks to everyone who offered their advice and encouragement.
This time I laid out with a knife and used a guide block for chopping the baseline. I need to use a thinner knife next time to mark the pins through the tails, the knife I used left too wide a line. I also saw first hand how the short grain at the tail's corners is weaker.
I've been using a 1:6 ratio for these thinking that poplar is pretty soft, maybe I'b be better with 1:7 or 1:8?
Thanks again for the insights offered, and please feel free to critique this.
I'm already thinking about box #3.
PI

[george wilson]

Coming along nicely,Paul. The dovetails are sufficient,no greater angles are needed. But for best design detail,which is important,make your edges along very defined surfaces. That is,make a round edge round,and a flat edge flat. You can radius the corners,but make them very consistent radii,no different radii,or flat spots on the radii. The radius on the top handle can be a perfect 180 degree half circle,or a portion of a circle with the edges of it sharp and definite where they meet the vertical edges.

Go to the FAQ section,and look up my 19th.C. saw handles. Observe the sharp,clean way the curves are made. They are true arcs all over. Where they intersect the flats of the handles,they are nice and sharp. the radii of these curves has been altered to create a 'calligraphic" curve of thicks and thins in places,but there are only smooth,flowing radii on the handles. Without these details being done true and accurate,those handles would be nothing special,even if they had exactly the same shapes.

There may be other samples of work in the FAQ,but I'm too tired to look at all of them. Also look at Brese's planes' edges. They are very accurately beveled,as are other very expensive planes. This attention to detail makes objects outstanding.

You can even use 1/2 of an ellipse on the edges as long as they are consistent and very accurate.

[Paul Incognito]

I think I understand. After looking at your saws, I see where keeping a distinction between the curves and the flat sections really wakes up the handle. I'll try and be more aware of the seemingly small details that can make or break a piece.
They are beautiful saws, by the way.
PI

[george wilson]

You will make progress,Paul. You are willing to take advice without your ego getting in the way. That is probably the most important element in making yourself a better craftsman.

[Rick Erickson]

Paul, very nice indeed. You are coming along very well. You should be proud. I prefer the look of 1:7 and it would be fine for Poplar but your DTs look great. What joinery did you use to connect the middle divider? What is going in the box?

[Paul Incognito]

I attached the handle/divider to the top with a tennon on either end mortised into the ends of the box. If the handle breaks...
I'm not sure what's going in it, it's a gift for a friend. She's an antiques conservator, I have no idea what kind of tools or supplies they use.
I've ben following your tool cabinet thread, it looks like it's coming along nicely! BTW, I have to abmit, tailed tools were involved with my project, too.
PI

[Russell Sansom]

Paul,
Gutsy to show your work. Two boxes in a week is a great start, and you seem to be serious. So here are a couple observations and opinions.
1) The half pins are two thin to my eye. For a drawer or a jewelry box where these corners aren't physically challenged, they seem ok, but for this application, fatter might be better. I know there's a trend toward thin pins, but as your aesthetic and sense of structure develop you'll get the confidence to override the trend. Fatter half pins would then want fatter pins throughout for balance.
Fatter pins will also give you a little more room for marking. I have always used a pencil for marking out. You can shave / sand off half a pencil ( along its length ) for narrow spaces. It will be delicate, but if you make a couple spares and work very carefully, the results are beautiful and a pleasure to work with. Sharp, delicate, thin, beautiful...are vital qualities for marking out perfect dovetails.

2) A radius on your plane iron, even the very tiniest one, will prevent the sharp gouges on the faces. A jointer is the picture perfect tool for finishing this box off, always planing from the outside in to prevent tearing out the end grain of your joinery. I hear people say that a camber will leave a roundish hollow. This hasn't been my experience with very shallow cambers.
3) Again, as a matter of aesthetics, I find a chamfer far more attractive than rounded edges. Rounded off yells "third world furniture factory" and "big box outlet woodworking." It also says "sandpaper," which, as a purely personal choice, I avoid.
4) The voids in the pics are a little hard to make out. If they are slightly miss-sized joints, try sawing a little large and paring down. It's a pain, but think of it this way: at this stage of your education, you're going to miss the sizing every cut by some. Better to saw fat and pare down to perfection than to saw too small and end up with an incurable fault. If the voids are tear-out, what's going on with that?

Congratulations. Your third box will be fantastic.

[george wilson]

I disagree. Properly rounded edges that come together at the corners with neat "miters" filed in look just fine. It's all in the technique.

In the vast collection of antiques in Williamsburg,which I was able to study for 39 years,I saw a lot of properly rounded edges. You simply cannot just make a blanket statement that rounded edges equal third World. Like everything else,it's a matter of how well it is done.

I cannot advise anyone,however,to sand dovetails to fit. I'd advise using a sharp chisel,or a bastard file.

That type box was usually considered a knife box,though they usually had flared sides.

[Paul Incognito]

My wife said the same thing about the half pins, hopefully they'll hold up. I'll try and make the next box more balanced.
I was wondering how to get rid of the score lines my plane was making. I used a low angle block plane seeing as how I was trimming the end grain of the tails and pins. I'll try my #6 or 7 with the next one. And I'll camber the iron.
Good call, the round overs are "third world furniture factory." In my haste to finish up, I just ran a router with a 1/4" ro bit around the edges. As George already pointed out, there are better ways to handle this detail. Maybe not as fast or easy, but the extra time spent will be forgotten when it's appreciated in 5 years.
The voids are both mis-sized joints and the corners of the tails coming loose at the short grain. This box is better, in my opinion, than box #1, hopefully box 3 will be better than this.
The feedback I've been getting is very valuable. I should be paying you guys tuition. :)
PI

[george wilson]

Trouble is,on these fora,you get good and bad advice. How are you supposed to weed it out ? Use your eyes.

[Russell Sansom]

George,
I think there is a misunderstanding here. I was just sharing my aesthetics about rounded top edges and saying what I find attractive and not, giving my reasons. Although I've been making musical instruments for 46 years, I rarely offer my opinions and my tastes in absolutes.

[Paul Incognito]

I didn't hear anyone here calling anybody wrong.
I deffinitely heard George's point on the asthetics of flat surfaces vs. rounded over and merging the two, it may take me a while to wrap my head around it and fully understand it, but I hear it.
I also hear Russell's point about the "factory made" look. In the future, when I make a piece by hand, I'll try to make the piece by hand, at least the parts that show in the finished piece.
K?
PI

[george wilson]

The tip about putting a slight camber on your plane iron is quite correct. It should be extremely slight. It will eliminate the scores left on your box. I do that myself. I didn't look at the box closely enough to notice the scores. I need surgery on my eyes by now from cataracts.

Don't worry about "the factory look". There are plenty of antiques with nicely radiused edges.

I make guitars too,and if I didn't radius the edges,the finish would wear off of them. There is a practical element that is also involved in design,of course. I don't radius every thing,but I'm telling Paul that if it is done,it needs careful attention,like my saw handles,to make the object achieve that higher quality that we strive for.

[Paul Incognito]

I'm telling Paul that if it is done,it needs careful attention,like my saw handles,to make the object achieve that higher quality that we strive for.
That's what I got from Russell's feedback. Roundovers aren't necessarily bad, just don't over do it. Your saw totes are a perfect example.
Thanks for your feedback, I find it very helpful.
PI