drum sander/ wide belt sander?

[cameron bailey]

I am going to buy a drum sander or a wide belt sander if I can find a nice one used.
I just do not know what would be best for me. I have about $2000 to $3000 to spend. I make all kinds of things but what I hate sanding the most are my end grain cutting boards. They take for ever. I know its a cutting board but I want them perfect. I have been using a festool RO125 FEQ and is great for not making any dust but I do get little swirl marks that do not show up until I finish it.
I took a couple of woodworking classes at the collage of the redwoods and used there wide belt sander on one and it made it nice and flat but left scratch lines on it. ( only one grit was used though and it was ether 80 or 120.) and it still took a long time to get them out with my festool RO125 FEQ .
I was looking at the woodmaster drum sander w-3875 with a 5hp motor that I like a lot but am afraid I will get them same lines that take a lot of time to get out of the end grain. The other one I was thinking of was the jet 22-44 osd. I like this for the oscillating drum that would not leave the lines but the motor seems small and I am wondering about the open end giving me problems.
Any help with this would be great.
Thanks.

[Cary Falk]

Even at 220grit on my Grizzly 18/36 dum sander, I get lines. It's the nature of the beast. I don't know anything about the Jet 22/44 osd but it looks nice.

[Rick Fisher]

Cameron..

I had a 24" General International Double Drum sander for a while.. It was a decent machine.. Projects needed to be sanded afterward, but it was minor compared to without ..

I upgraded to a 24" Wide Belt Sander recently and while its a huge improvement over a drum sander.. I still sand with the ROS afterward.

The upside of a Wide Belt is if it has a platen.. Wide Belts also oscillate..
They also are more capable, and do a superior job.. With a drum sander, you often don't change the thickness until you have done 2-3 passes.. A Wide Belt will remove the material in one pass.

I can also easily run 180 grit belts on the wide belt, with no real risk of burning ..

The downside of a Wide Belt is cost and power.. They are a lot more money, and typically draw a bunch of power. My 24" Wide Belt is 12hp .. compared to 3hp for the 24" Double drum.

Another major consideration is dust collection.. Wide Belt Sanders need a large collector .. (ideally) .. They are a serious nuisance to clean if dust collection is insufficient.. Improper dust collection will cause all sorts of performance problems and air quality problems.

[cameron bailey]

Thanks for the replies.

[Van Huskey]

Th best (least line) finish I have seen for a given grit is the Jet 22-44 OSD, but I have not used any HIGH end belt sanders but they are out of your range even used.

[Jeff Duncan]

If your not in a hurry this is a good time to pick up a used sander. I recently bought my 43" Timesaver for $750. It's an old tank and far from pretty, but it sands everything I throw at it and is not even comparable to my old Powermatic dual drum.
good luck,
JeffD

[Craig D Peltier]

I have the 15" open end from Grizz with the 5hp engine. Its a beast, it oscillates.
I would want a drum again, I dont want to change paper on it. Takes too long. Wide belt its on and off quick.
I heard the 3hp is largely underpowered same machine.

[Jeff Monson]

Cameron, I recently went down a similar path. I really wanted the 22/44 osd but was concerned with the 1.5hp being enough. I opted for a 22/44 pro with a 3hp motor. It took some time and frustation with getting the drum paralel to the belt....but once I got it set its been a pleasure to use. I run alot of raised panel doors through it and it does not take long with my ros to eliminate the cross grain scratches. I use 150 grit on my 22/44 and have never burnt a panel. It has tons of power also, no regrets on this machine. I really wish jet could come up with a system to fine tune the open end of the sander, it would make setup way easier.

[Chip Lindley]

Cameron, in your price range, you are pretty much resigned to a drum sander. I have used the Grizzly 1066 and now a Woodmaster 3820 double drum. Any drum or belt sander will leave cross-grain scratches.

What you really need is a BEAST like the Timesavers 2300 wide orbital sander.

[cameron bailey]

If I only had the money, space and power that time saver would be a dream.

[J.R. Rutter]

I have the 15" open end from Grizz with the 5hp engine. Its a beast, it oscillates.
I would NOT want a drum again, I dont want to change paper on it. Takes too long. Wide belt its on and off quick.
I heard the 3hp is largely underpowered same machine.

Is this edit correct ^^^ ?

[Paul Johnstone]

It's hard to generalize, but I think the key thing with sanding on a drum sander is to take very small "bites". When you think you are finished, run the piece at the same height 3-5 more times.. Keep doing it until you don't hear sanding noise. If you are making a lot of passes, it's a good idea to occasoinally do this in the middle of the job to let the sander "Catch up".

I run a dual drum sander (Supermax). I put 150 on the front drum and either 180 or 220 on the rear drum. I have no lines. I do mostly oak and maple. I have no need to touch up with a ROS afterwards.

If you use a heavy grit, like 80/120, you will get lines. BTW. there's no need (IMO, of course) to use a courser grit than 100 (like 80) if the wood has been planed (unless you are hogging off a lot of wood with the sander). The guys at Klingspore said that planed wood is roughly equivalent to 100 grit, and that seems right in my experience.

I've never tried the oscillating drum sanders, so I don't know if that is worthwhile or not. Seems like a great idea though.

[Paul Johnstone]

oh another note.
I never sand cross grain with my drum sander. I know other people do.
When I make raised panel doors, I sand the panels, rails, and styles before glue up. I don't like the crossgrain scratches, so I do use a ROS to fine tune the rail-style glue joints.

[Joe Jensen]

Rick left a couple of sanders out of his post. He also had or has an open end 15" wide Grizly sander, and I think a heavier duty 24" wider dual drum. Hopefully he'll post again, but I think he rated the 15" widebelt as slightly better than a dual drum, and the 24" SCMI wide belt as an incredible upgrade over the dual drum. He has a big phase converter and got a steal on the widebelt. If you have to also get the phase converter the cost for a real wide belt is likely prohibative.

[Rick Fisher]

:o

Okay.. I will come clean about my sander fetish..

I still have a 15" General international wide belt and a 36" General Double drum.. Sold the 24" General Double Drum..

I recently added the 25" SCM Wide Belt..

The General 15" Wide Belt has no platten.. It leaves a superior finish to either drum sander.. Simply due to Oscillation.. The SCM has a graphite platen and beats all the other sanders hands down..

The least of the 4 machines was the General 24" Double drum.. but it was still a nice machine..

If I did not have any sanders.. the drum sanders would be spectacular.. When you use a wide belt, the drum sanders lose there luster.. I am going to sell off the 15" Wide Belt next.. (Procrastination) .. and eventually just get down to having the 25" SCM ..

[J.R. Rutter]

I agree with Rick. In hindsight, I should have tried to make a widebelt work in my garage shop 10 years ago when I started my business.

As it was, I started with a 22/44 Pro, running 150 grit. Got the job done, but sanding a kitchen's worth of doors could take hours and require a paper change halfway through. 5 HP.

It was a major upgrade to go to a double drum 37" Extrema drum sander. Twice as fast as the 22/44 and could run 120 / 180 for a better finish. Paper lasted longer since the 120 got rid of glue and the 180 was just sanding wood. Second drum was rubber, which also helped. Paper still stretched and overlapped from time to time. 10 HP

It was a major upgrade to go with the current 43" SCMI double widebelt. Again, twice as fast and 120 / 180 takes care of minor tearout and finish sands in one pass. I run both the second drum and platen as contact points - very light with the platen. 30 HP

[Rick Fisher]

30HP JR.. Wow.. That is serious..

Mine is only 12hp ..

I will say that the best thing I ever did was set up a 3 phase system in my Garage shop.. Having 3 Phase available is so freeing..

I have a converter which simply feeds an additional 3 phase panel.. so to hook up another machine is as simple as snapping in a breaker and running the cable..

Used 3 PH wide Belt sanders are common.. they are hard to sell once they get old, because shops want newer machines and hobby guys mostly cannot run the machine due to 3 Phase...

That scenario repeats itself over and over with 3 Phase Machinery.. Much of the heavily used machinery is running fine, but not fast enough or reliable enough for a factory setting.. so it gets replaced..

These machines may have only 10% of there lifespan left, but we forget that they where meant to be run 8 hours a day for 10 years.. so 10% left could be 2000 hours ... I will be long dead of old age when any of my machinery has 2000 hours of my use on it..

If I where to set up shop again, I would start with installing 3 phase.. there have been so many great deals let pass by me in the past because of not having access to the power, and Wide Belt sanders are the pinnacle of power problems in my opinion..

[Rick Fisher]

JR I gotta ask..

With my 25" Sander.. I can sand 23" wide Padauk and the Ammeter only hits maybe 20 amps.. My machine caps out at 31 amps..

Does your 30HP sander ever even come close to tapping out the Ammeter ?

Your machine has twin belts ? .. still.. I cant imagine it ever coming close to running at 100% power ?

What I do find bizarre is that my machine at 20 amps could be said to be using 8 hp ?? .. my General 24" Double Drum had a similar capacity and came with a 3hp motor.. Which is likely why this sander is so much more capable ..

[J.R. Rutter]

Mine has 4 belts. It is the Sandya 5RCS. The motor is wired for 600V. We just run a transformer for it on a 100A 208V 3PH breaker. Got a deal on the transformer, so we made out well being able to run smaller gauge wire to the machine.

The belts slip before the overload trips, so we try to keep amp draw under 20A @ 600V. I don't recall exactly, but max is probably 30-35A before the overload trips. So this is similar to your 2/3 ratio.

I haven't tried to push it beyond this by changing / tightening belts. Really wide jatoba will give it a hard time, but we use it as a sander, not a planer - 0.5 mm passes typically. With our process, this is a one pass per side depth.

[cameron bailey]

I found a couple powermatic 16" open end wide belt sanders (model 1632).
They are both in my price range, foot print, and power usage. It is a little smaller than I was looking for but sound like it would be a step up from a drum.
Has anyone ever used this sander or have any info? All the reviews I have seen have been good so far.
Thanks for all the replies and info.
Cameron

[Rick Lizek]

It's a shame no one mentioned a stroke sander. I've been using and repairing all kinds of sanders over 40 years and the stroke sander is one of the best deals going. Doesn't take up as much space as some people think. Widebelts needdouble the length of the pieces they are running, stroke sander is a few feet longer than the piece. A fraction of the HP of a widebelt is required on a stroke sander and belts are cheap and fast to change. Not to mention stroke sanders are often very inexpensive to buy and the big plus is a surface that can go right into finishing. A drum sander requires random orbit work on the piece while a widebelt with a platen can sand pieces goof enough to go into finishing.

A stroke sander is my first choice for an good affordable sander for a small business.