Hand Plane video on you tube

[David Colafranceschi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKotbPE22lo


I have had classes from Rob, given a chance he will change the way you work wood, for the better. Check out what an old hand plane can do. One of the nicest gentlemen you will ever meet who oozes with woodworking knowledge. I have taken his classes and have seen first hand the amount of skill he has and his ability to communicate it.

[David DeCristoforo]

I thought I had the best last name here. But my hat's off...

[Peter Quinn]

That is not an instructional video, it is a sales pitch for a $100 plane iron. Add to that the price of a user hand plane, the hours spent fixing it, and the time taken to machine the throat to accept the new iron/chip breaker combo, and I wonder if any value has been achieved. You are working quickly towards the price of a Lie Neilson at that point. I do like his web site though. Looks like a great educator. But this video is a sales tool.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

The vid may be a sales tool but -DAMN- Wow. All the expeletives....

No. I'm not going to buy one. Maybe after I find a Stanley No. 4. Yeah right. I been trying to find one for 20 bux....

[jerry nazard]

Wow! I think that I've seen this thread before....:D

[Don Morris]

I've got a Bailey #4. How close is that? Inherited it. Use it once in a while. I could always put a piece of paper over the Bailey with "Stanley" on it, squint and play act. Seriously, I'm not a Neander, but do use my handplanes when they're indicated. Sometimes they are really helpful and time savers...and I admit, enjoyable to use. How close is a Bailey to a Stanley?

[Peter Quinn]

Nobody. But someone said something about advertising here on the creek, like maybe not doing it here in the general wood working forum? I'm no master of the TOS, but does this push the limits?

All that said, I'm thinking seriously about that upgrade as a possibility. Still not sure 1 hour is a realistic time frame to rehab an old #4 having done it a few times. But I work cheap. I like that idea of bundling the chip breaker with the iron to over come the problem. Do they have anything for spokeshaves?

[David Nelson1]

Don I dont know, but I have a Bailey #3 that says Stanley also Patent date was 1908 its belonged to my Great grandpa.

[Mitchell Andrus]

...who said anything about the youtube being an instructional video?

Rob Cosman


I do.


OP: "I have had classes from Rob, given a chance he will change the way you work wood, for the better. Check out what an old hand plane can do. One of the nicest gentlemen you will ever meet who oozes with woodworking knowledge. I have taken his classes and have seen first hand the amount of skill he has and his ability to communicate it."


The OP mentions classes, changing the way you work, knowledge, classes (again), skill, communication.... not much about a sales pitch that asks us to go to a website at the end of the Youtube video. BUT, if you don't want to call it an instructional video, it's a sales video.

I'm sure the OP didn't post to entice us to buy hardware, or a set of DVD's for hundreds of dollars, he's passing on a cool thing from someone he trusts... That's OK. And, I don't mind sales pitches being posted on the forum as long as it's marked as such (though a moderator might). I do mind a post that entices me to sit through a Vegamatic demo that doesn't do anything but end with a bold, large font URL at the end where everything has a price tag on it, including the hardware I just saw being demo'd.

Don't get me wrong here, I've got 2 shopping cart sites and 3 other's selling my stuff. But I don't post a "gotta look at this" message where they end up getting a sales pitch in disguise.

Rob, I wish you phenomenal sales, you seem to have a great thing going.
.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Nobody. But someone said something about advertising here on the creek, like maybe not doing it here in the general wood working forum? I'm no master of the TOS, but does this push the limits?

That depends on how you define "advertising". If Rob posted and said "hey, go here and buy my stuff", that is clearly advertising. I have seen numerous posts similar to "check out this link, what do you think". Sure, the original post was not precisely this, but, kind of close. My wife would point out that I am unassuming and have a strong tendency to assume the best until it is otherwise obvious. So perhaps I am not the best person to judge such things.

I am thinking about picking up one or two of these. I am spoiled by my LN planes. I also have some Stanleys that work well, but, will perform much better with an improved blade and chip breaker. I saw a reference to this video elsewhere on this forum, however. Do not remember where.

[rob cosman]

Same animal.

[Tony Shea]

Stanley/Bailey, basically the same tool and basically the same company. I'm not up on the specifics back a while back on these two names but today Stanley is Bailey. So yes the plane would work fine I assume with the chip breaker blade combo. Rob you took some heat all ready for this one in the neander forum. Hopefully this one turns out a bit better for you. I might look into one of these set ups here soon. I just recently bought a replacement iron from LN for my #7. But when I decide my #5 needs a replacement I will look heavily at the this new setup.

[Brian Kent]

Rob, you say in the video, when you were sent an IBC blade, "I was rather skeptical. I've seen a lot of blades. Never really saw much of a difference."

I am aware of 3 available aftermarket premium blades: Hock, Lie Nielsen, and Lee Valley. I am curious if these are included in the blades where you "Never saw much of a difference"? I thought the consensus of experience is that Hock, Lie Nielsen, and Lee Valley do make a difference in hand plane performance.

Brian

[Brian Kent]

I have been following this and the earlier thread about the new blade and chip breaker set. One thing that is an advantage of the RC set is thickness of blade. The Lee Valley, Hock, and Lie Nielsen blades for old Stanleys are .093" to .095" thick so that the yoke can engage. The new little feature on the RC blade set allows for a .140" thick blade on an old Stanley. New Lie Nielsens have a configuration that allows for a .125", .140", or .175" blade, depending on the size of the plane.

I would expect an improved performance jumping from .093" to .140" on an old Stanley.

I invite the comments of those more experienced in blade replacements. My experiences in blade thickness is in home-made infill planes using blades 5/32 and 1/4" thick (.156" and .250").

Here is a footnote on blade thickness on the Lie Nielsen website.
"Replacement blades for Bench Planes must be thinner to fit the original Stanley, Record or other makers' Bench Planes. If the blade is too thick, the yoke on your plane will not properly engage the slot in the Chipbreaker, The Chipbreaker Screw may not be long enough to install the Chipbreaker at all, but most important the mouth opening may not be large enough to allow the blade, or a shaving, to pass.
Therefore, Bench Plane blades ordered from the list above, identified by width, will be .095" thick, which will work fine on most Bench Planes. Blades of the same width, ordered as replacement blades for our own planes, identified by the tool number (e.g., BL-4) will be thicker (.125" for the 4 and 5, .140" for the 4-1/2 and .175" for the No. 8.)"


So if I am reading all of this correctly, I congratulate Rob Cosman on finding a way to get a .140" thick blade in an old Stanley! (and I still want you to to defend the statement quoted in my last post).

[rob cosman]

Hi Brian, sorry I have been away teaching workshops and just saw your post. The blades mentioned are the premium ones, any of them would make a huge difference over the original Stanley equipment. I did not see a difference amoung those you mentioned including Clifton. The IBC is cryo treated A-2, sides are parallel, edge is square and a very precise primary bevel reduces the honing time to less than a minute using the technique I teach in the included dvd. The single biggest difference in the IBC offering is the level of preparation. The back is flat, the breaker fits perfectly and it is sharp where it meets the blade. Other nice feature is the O-1 steel the breaker is made of. Much harder than the others, holds it's edge and shape. Proof is in the pudding. I am working on a new youtube clip using this set up in an old stanley to tackle figured hardwoods. Good luck.
cheers
Rob

[Anthony Diodati]

So Rob, my question is, with the new IBC blade/chip-breaker set, you are saying you most likley WILL have to file the mouth opening?
Do you file the front of the mouth, or the rear, or either.
Thanks, Tony

[Bob Jones]

I can't speak for ibc, but I put a hock blade in an old user quality #4 and it was like a new one! I could not do any better with my ln 4.5

[Anthony Diodati]

I can't speak for ibc, but I put a hock blade in an old user quality #4 and it was like a new one! I could not do any better with my LN 4.5

I just put a hock blade and breaker in a t 15 #7.
Really didn't get to use it yet, but I have a war time 4 1/2 I want to set up next, and was thinking about the Hock for the 4 1/2 too.
Did you just put the Hock blade in the # 4, or the chip breaker too?
Thanks, Tony
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/Upload%20and%20forget%202/Hock7001S.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

Didn't we just have a similar thread to this that was deleted?

I almost took some pictures of an edge of rock maple that was planed with an old Stanley blade that came up like a mirror. I have already done this with a piece of pine that was smoothed with an old Stanley blade. The rock maple was even more mirror like.

Yes, I know the old Stanley blades are not as nice as many of the new premium blades. They can take and hold an edge. They can take nice translucent shavings. They can also take thick shavings.

The blade is one of the important building blocks of a good plane. There are some pieces of junk out there that were sold as planes that will not perform well no mater what blade is installed in their shaky boned bodies.

I wish I could find all those used planes that only take an hour of time to put into top shape. Most of the ones of my acquaintance have taken more time than that to disassemble and properly remove the dirt and rust. I would feel that it may be discouraging to someone to tell them they should be able to fettle a plane to perfection in an hour. Most planes that are in that good of condition will not show up often in the $20 range.

I got very lucky one day and found this for $15:

149145

It took more than an hour to repair the tote, clean and tune to get to this:

149146

It took great shavings with a Stanley blade.

jim

[David Weaver]

This whole thing reminds me a lot of when winchester and remington introduced short magnums and for several years, the writers of the magazines tried to convince us there was something new and better about them.

I haven't seen the chipbreaker. I have two of the irons. They are good irons and they're finished well, but they will need to be the same price or less than others to be competitive as an iron alone.

Durability is similar to all of the other brands mentioned. So similar that I would never put money on which would last more strokes before failing to cut or chipping out.

[David Weaver]

One big benefit of the irons, though, while we're talking about comparables for someone who might be looking and debating hock hcs for $31 and old chipbreaker or full boat IBC setup - the IBC iron does have a nice anti-rust coating on it. Hopefully the chipbreaker has the same.

I would say "whoop-de" about the anti-rust coating if it weren't for a couple of premium irons that I have that have pits on them further up the iron from where the chipbreaker touched the iron and I didn't do such a great job keeping them oiled.

I think the anti-rust coating is a good idea, especially for the current crop of hobbyists who sometimes don't use a plane for months at a time.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Posting links to videos is not forbidden as long as they are not outright sales pitches. It is a fact of life that any video will have some commercial message either overt or covert if it is produced by any manufacturer or distributor. I hope that we will not see any which are outright sales pitches. Instructional videos with a small commercial element are fine. The previous thread on Rob's plane blade/chip breaker combos was pulled because it got out of hand and extremely rancourous. That's not the way we do things around here.

I sincerely hope this thread stays within the bounds of civil discussion and avoids attacks on motives and personalitites.

[Tri Hoang]

If you have some family treasure to restore...the replacement blade/chip breaker may be an option. Although, one could use a thick blade in a regular Stanley if one just replace the yoke with a LN equivalent (a $5 upgrade). Once the mouth is filed, there's no going back. Keep in mind that the hock blade/chip breaker has been around for ages and has great reputation.

The cost of the plane, materials, blade/chip breaker is north of $150. The true value of this combo will be reflected in the resale value of these modified planes. I'm sure they will come up in SMC classified eventually.

If you are a newbie, forget about this set up. Get a brand new Veritas low angle jack. With a sharp blade, it will cut full width/length paper-thin shavings before you even finish putting a coat of WD40 on that old plane. Adjustable mouth: piece of cake. Blade thickness: massive 3/16". Frog: rock-solid because it's machine right into the body.

A plane needs adjustments. How easy/accurate/consistent those adjustments can be made separates a performer from a mediocre one. So don't believe the hype that the blade is everything until you've got some experience.

[rob cosman]

Hi Tony, I file the front of the mouth, closest to the knob. Most of the old planes I have could stand to have the mouth cleaned up. It takes about a 1/16" on average. Not a hard procedure, file so the surface is perpendicular to the sole or slightly angled toward the knob. I fine tune the last bit by placing the blade in the plane and checking after every few strokes. If you buy the blade and breaker the DVD comes with it and it has lots of close up detail on all the steps.
cheers
Rob

[rob cosman]

Or if you want to restore that grandfather hand-me-down then look seriously at the blade/breaker combination. Even as a newbie, this is not rocket science. You need a file, a vise, a flat machine top or float glass, some sticky back sand paper and an hour. The more difficult task is preparing the blade and breaker. To get a sharp blade you need a flat stone, you need to flatten the back of the blade and you need to fit the breaker to the blade so there are not gaps that will trap shavings and clog the throat. The advantage of Woodcraft/IBCs offering is they have done the hard part. The blade is pre-flattened and mated perfectly to the breaker. You are only a minute of honing from dropping it into the restored plane and experiencing what we are all trying to entice you to do. Your risk?, time! Just got off the phone with a VP from Woodcraft to make sure, you have 90 days from purchase date to do what you want with this, if it does not perform you return and refund. Subtract the cost of the dvd ($32.50) and your paying in the low $60's for a premium thick blade, an O-1 breaker that is harder than any of the others and all the prep work on both pcs has been done. I call that a deal!
Cheers
Rob

[Jim Koepke]

Or if you want to restore that grandfather hand-me-down then look seriously at the blade/breaker combination. Even as a newbie, this is not rocket science. You need a file, a vise, a flat machine top or float glass, some sticky back sand paper and an hour.

If you get a well cared for plane, you won't even need an hour. I find those all the time in antique shops usually next to the unicorn saddles.




The more difficult task is preparing the blade and breaker. To get a sharp blade you need a flat stone, you need to flatten the back of the blade and you need to fit the breaker to the blade so there are not gaps that will trap shavings and clog the throat. The advantage of Woodcraft/IBCs offering is they have done the hard part. The blade is pre-flattened and mated perfectly to the breaker. You are only a minute of honing from dropping it into the restored plane and experiencing what we are all trying to entice you to do. Your risk?, time!

For those who find time a valuable commodity, my suggestion is they buy a new plane or one that has been restored from someone they trust.

Being retired, my time is my own to spend how ever I like. The more time I spend tuning chip breakers, the better I have become at tuning chip breakers.



Just got off the phone with a VP from Woodcraft to make sure, you have 90 days from purchase date to do what you want with this, if it does not perform you return and refund. Subtract the cost of the dvd ($32.50) and your paying in the low $60's for a premium thick blade, an O-1 breaker that is harder than any of the others and all the prep work on both pcs has been done. I call that a deal!
Cheers
Rob

When we do the math, there are a few things that come to mind. If there are three planes in my shop worthy of new blades will woodcraft offer a $32.50 discount on the second and third blades since I really don't need three DVDs?

BTW, $99.99 minus $32.50 is $67.49, I guess we have different ideas on many things including what constitutes "the low $60's." If it were the blade for the #4-1/2, 6 and 7 size planes, then we would be talking low $70 range.

I did not see anything on the website that says these come with free shipping.

jim

[David Weaver]

Or if you want to restore that grandfather hand-me-down then look seriously at the blade/breaker combination. Even as a newbie, this is not rocket science. You need a file, a vise, a flat machine top or float glass, some sticky back sand paper and an hour. The more difficult task is preparing the blade and breaker. To get a sharp blade you need a flat stone, you need to flatten the back of the blade and you need to fit the breaker to the blade so there are not gaps that will trap shavings and clog the throat. The advantage of Woodcraft/IBCs offering is they have done the hard part. The blade is pre-flattened and mated perfectly to the breaker. You are only a minute of honing from dropping it into the restored plane and experiencing what we are all trying to entice you to do. Your risk?, time! Just got off the phone with a VP from Woodcraft to make sure, you have 90 days from purchase date to do what you want with this, if it does not perform you return and refund. Subtract the cost of the dvd ($32.50) and your paying in the low $60's for a premium thick blade, an O-1 breaker that is harder than any of the others and all the prep work on both pcs has been done. I call that a deal!
Cheers
Rob

Is the iron and chipbreaker going to be available without the DVD? If so, maybe at price - 1/2 of DVD price or something?

[rob cosman]

My mistake Jim, I was thinking the 2" was selling for $95 not $100, so upper $60's is correct. as per shipping, with 85 WC stores around the country most folks will have one somewhat close. Now dont come back to me with "gas money". Spend a few hours in a cool store and enjoy yourself. The purpose of this offering is to motivate the non-hand plane user to try it. The same guy who wont buy a new plane, the granddad relic is the key to getting him to try this as a means of restoring a bit of personal history. Connect to the past if you will.
I dont think they will do anything for you on multiple purchases online but knowing as many of the store owners as I do, I think you would have a better chance in-store. cheers
Rob

[Don Dorn]

I agree with you Brian. I don't think that RC is trying to say (at least not that I could see) that this matched set will work as well as a new LN out of the box.

I think he's simply trying to say that for $100, a person who has a #4 laying around but doesn't use planes because it doesn't work well, will see a different plane when this set is intalled. I don't think this product was ever meant to try and sway those of us who already know how to fettle a plane and have experience with them. They are going for that market that are not into planes yet.

However, if I had an old #4, a $100 investment that would most likely help it perform to even close to LN standards, would be worth the money. Granted, without a perfectly flat sole and frog, it will never be the same, but I am one who thinks that that greatest percentage of performance lies in a sharp blade and well fitting chip breaker.

[Brian Kent]

Hi Brian, sorry I have been away teaching workshops and just saw your post. The blades mentioned are the premium ones, any of them would make a huge difference over the original Stanley equipment. I did not see a difference amoung those you mentioned including Clifton. The IBC is cryo treated A-2, sides are parallel, edge is square and a very precise primary bevel reduces the honing time to less than a minute using the technique I teach in the included dvd. The single biggest difference in the IBC offering is the level of preparation. The back is flat, the breaker fits perfectly and it is sharp where it meets the blade. Other nice feature is the O-1 steel the breaker is made of. Much harder than the others, holds it's edge and shape. Proof is in the pudding. I am working on a new youtube clip using this set up in an old stanley to tackle figured hardwoods. Good luck.
cheers
Rob

Thank you very much, Rob. The thickness issue alone is enough reason to have another blade on the market. I appreciate your response. Good luck to you.

Brian

[Jim Koepke]

I agree with you Brian. I don't think that RC is trying to say (at least not that I could see) that this matched set will work as well as a new LN out of the box.

I think he's simply trying to say that for $100, a person who has a #4 laying around but doesn't use planes because it doesn't work well, will see a different plane when this set is intalled. I don't think this product was ever meant to try and sway those of us who already know how to fettle a plane and have experience with them. They are going for that market that are not into planes yet.

However, if I had an old #4, a $100 investment that would most likely help it perform to even close to LN standards, would be worth the money. Granted, without a perfectly flat sole and frog, it will never be the same, but I am one who thinks that that greatest percentage of performance lies in a sharp blade and well fitting chip breaker.

The one flaw for me in this is the blade being the only item needed to get the plane working. Once that new blade gets dull, the person is going to be right back where they were, needing to learn how to sharpen a blade.

If they are able to put a good edge on a blade and their plane is not working, then putting in another sharp blade isn't going to change much.

jim

[michael craigdallie]

Once that new blade gets dull, the person is going to be right back where they were, needing to learn how to sharpen a blade.



jim



can't really argue with that. so simple.

cheers,
m

[Joel Goodman]

Not to beat a dead horse or to belittle RC's new setup but --
Many folks have used 1/8" blades and opened up the mouth -- it's not a lot of work. LN blades for their planes are 1/8" for #4 or 5's ($40) and TWW has Ray Isles carbon blades that are just shy of 1/8th ($37). Both work well in Stanleys with a little filing of the mouth. The Hock chipbreaker is $25 if you want a heavy chipbreaker, although I don't know if you need it. So RC's point about the pricing with the DVD pencils out as his irons are even thicker -- if you want or need the DVD.

[Don Dorn]

Boys, hence the FREE dvd, seems I have said this a few times. The dvd covers everything from testing the plane before you begin to be sure it is worth tuning, to sharpening, to using the plane on wide surfaces. Even covers how to grind a new primary bevel for when the need arrives. Why dont one of you buy this and review it for everyone else, seems we could save a lot of time and either prop me up or shut me up!
Rob

I agree with Jim on the sharpening. I haven't seen your DVD Rob, but I have seen a couple of your sharpening youtubes. Does the DVD show a person how to sharpen with relatively inexpensive equipment, or are we dealing with a number of Shapton stones and $250.00 flattening plate? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it isn't great equipment, but it would certainly extend the budget far beyond the $100 for the matched set to keep it sharp, no?

I know that to get started, an elipse jig (for those of us who use such dastardly equipment:rolleyes:) and a combination 1000/8000 stone would get them to the point that it can be kept sharp. Maybe not RC sharp, but certainly sharp enough to keep in business. Thoughts?

[David Colafranceschi]

After starting this thread I have got side tracked and just this evening read up on it.

In some ways I am a little shocked. I have spent thousands on handplanes in my life time and have used the flea market stanley to several thousand dollar infill planes. I have tried them all and have my views on all of them and they all have value at some price point. This product has excellent value. Great way to get some of those old Stanleys working again. Not everyone has $400 all the time to pull out of their pocket to purchase a new plane-especially in this economy.

I have been lucky over the years from the stand point of finding planes from visiting a garage sale here and there and a few hand planes that have been given to me from friends and neighbors. I don't think this product is aimed at replacing a new tools that are made today but to reuse some of the planes that have been used in the past. In many cases they can be found pretty cheaply and, contrary to what an earlier poster said, can be tuned in an hour and put back to work. The whole idea about all of this is that a person can buy a matched set blade and chip breaker and being much thicker then what was initially in the plane and thicker then what is available commercially today. The blade back is flat and if one has sat at a bench trying to flatten a new blade you would know how much time goes into that.

All in all. If you have a donor plane or can find one cheaply, with this set you can be on your way to getting some high quality results very quickly. I don't disagree that you can get a good edge on an original Stanley blade but.....well we all know what happens with that same blade when the grain gets a little challenging or wood harder than what you would find with straight grained maple and pine. That is where those tools would fail.

I think it is a great idea and a wonderful product.

[David Colafranceschi]

I agree with Jim on the sharpening. I haven't seen your DVD Rob, but I have seen a couple of your sharpening youtubes. Does the DVD show a person how to sharpen with relatively inexpensive equipment, or are we dealing with a number of Shapton stones and $250.00 flattening plate? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it isn't great equipment, but it would certainly extend the budget far beyond the $100 for the matched set to keep it sharp, no?

I know that to get started, an elipse jig (for those of us who use such dastardly equipment:rolleyes:) and a combination 1000/8000 stone would get them to the point that it can be kept sharp. Maybe not RC sharp, but certainly sharp enough to keep in business. Thoughts?


Hey Don.

I hear you on the price of the Shapton stones and plate. Let me tell you this. I used to have a king gold stone, it was 8000 grit and a 1000 and 4000 norton stones and used various devices to keep them flat. I was reluctant to spend the money. I tried the Shaptons once and was sold. After I tool delivery of mine I called up a friend and gave him all my old sharpening stones.

Expensive? Yes but worth every penny.

[Jim Koepke]

[Edited for brevity]

Not everyone has $400 all the time to pull out of their pocket to purchase a new plane-especially in this economy.

Finding $100 can be just as tough.



[Edited for brevity]

I don't think this product is aimed at replacing a new tools that are made today but to reuse some of the planes that have been used in the past. In many cases they can be found pretty cheaply and, contrary to what an earlier poster said, can be tuned in an hour and put back to work. The whole idea about all of this is that a person can buy a matched set blade and chip breaker and being much thicker then what was initially in the plane and thicker then what is available commercially today. The blade back is flat and if one has sat at a bench trying to flatten a new blade you would know how much time goes into that.

All in all. If you have a donor plane or can find one cheaply, with this set you can be on your way to getting some high quality results very quickly. I don't disagree that you can get a good edge on an original Stanley blade but.....well we all know what happens with that same blade when the grain gets a little challenging or wood harder than what you would find with straight grained maple and pine. That is where those tools would fail.

I think it is a great idea and a wonderful product.

I would love to watch someone tune up some of the planes I have found and restored in an hour or less. Maybe we have different ideas of how the finished item should appear. Maybe we have different standards of what we will accept to tune. Maybe it is that I consider removing rust and lapping surfaces part of the tune up process and others do not. It could be that I take the time to remove the lateral adjuster and the depth stop and others do not. It could also be that I will remove the rust from the frog screws, the knob screw and the tote screws that others do not feel is necessary. I guess time could be saved by not lapping the frog or cleaning the wood.

Yes, I could take a wire wheel to the plane and just make sure the frog is on straight in less than an hour. Maybe even a chip breaker could be adjusted in that same time. But I would not want to associate my name with that being a fine user plane.

The link below shows the minimum of what I usually do to revive an old plane:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=114373

There are a some things not shown. That plane did not need repairs to the wood. It was also given a few coats of paint. It is now a very fine jointer even with a Stanley blade. The pictures in the thread do have it fitted with a Hock blade. To tell the truth, I am not sure what blade is in it currently. I only have one Hock blade of that size and four planes that are able to use it.

I have not had to spend an inordinate amount of time flattening the backs of Hock or Lie-Neilsen blades.

I have been able to smooth some pretty squirrelly grain in cherry, very dry western red cedar, mahogany, walnut, red heart, purple heart, rosewood and a few others with a very sharp Stanley blade and very light cuts.

I think the dry western red cedar was the most challenging. It was very prone to chip and split along with tear out.

I am not trying to question the quality of the blades being offered.

My antenna does go up when told that the blade is only costing so much because a DVD will accompany the blade. If the blade is not available without the DVD at a reduced cost, then the blade is still going to cost the full price.

Having some experience fixing up old planes my antenna also gets tweaked by someone telling me it shouldn't take more than an hour to tune a yard sale find. Show me good planes like that for $20 or less and I will gladly buy them all day long. Pre-ogee frog only please.

Then another thing that kind of makes me wonder is the idea that a plane that is not going to work when fitted with a properly sharpened Stanley blade is all of a sudden going to work wonders with a new blade. I will agree that due to the physics of increased mass a thicker blade can have a performance advantage over the original blades. But it is those same physics involved in making a plane a lousy plane that will keep it a lousy plane albeit with an expensive blade.

If I could buy such magic in a box to transform trash to treasure, $100 certainly would be a bargain.

jim

[David Nelson1]

Finding $100 can be just as tough.



I would love to watch someone tune up some of the planes I have found and restored in an hour or less. Maybe we have different ideas of how the finished item should appear. Maybe we have different standards of what we will accept to tune. Maybe it is that I consider removing rust and lapping surfaces part of the tune up process and others do not. It could be that I take the time to remove the lateral adjuster and the depth stop and others do not. It could also be that I will remove the rust from the frog screws, the knob screw and the tote screws that others do not feel is necessary. I guess time could be saved by not lapping the frog or cleaning the wood.

Yes, I could take a wire wheel to the plane and just make sure the frog is on straight in less than an hour. Maybe even a chip breaker could be adjusted in that same time. But I would not want to associate my name with that being a fine user plane.

The link below shows the minimum of what I usually do to revive an old plane:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=114373

There are a some things not shown. That plane did not need repairs to the wood. It was also given a few coats of paint. It is now a very fine jointer even with a Stanley blade. The pictures in the thread do have it fitted with a Hock blade. To tell the truth, I am not sure what blade is in it currently. I only have one Hock blade of that size and four planes that are able to use it.

I have not had to spend an inordinate amount of time flattening the backs of Hock or Lie-Neilsen blades.

I have been able to smooth some pretty squirrelly grain in cherry, very dry western red cedar, mahogany, walnut, red heart, purple heart, rosewood and a few others with a very sharp Stanley blade and very light cuts.

I think the dry western red cedar was the most challenging. It was very prone to chip and split along with tear out.

I am not trying to question the quality of the blades being offered.

My antenna does go up when told that the blade is only costing so much because a DVD will accompany the blade. If the blade is not available without the DVD at a reduced cost, then the blade is still going to cost the full price.

Having some experience fixing up old planes my antenna also gets tweaked by someone telling me it shouldn't take more than an hour to tune a yard sale find. Show me good planes like that for $20 or less and I will gladly buy them all day long. Pre-ogee frog only please.

Then another thing that kind of makes me wonder is the idea that a plane that is not going to work when fitted with a properly sharpened Stanley blade is all of a sudden going to work wonders with a new blade. I will agree that due to the physics of increased mass a thicker blade can have a performance advantage over the original blades. But it is those same physics involved in making a plane a lousy plane that will keep it a lousy plane albeit with an expensive blade.

If I could buy such magic in a box to transform trash to treasure, $100 certainly would be a bargain.

jim

Jim,
Thanks for pointing me to your link it will become a valuable tool in the weeks to come.

[Josh Rudolph]

This is not to offend anyone, but just to provide a perspective from the targeted audience as stated by Mr. Cosman...

Well, this and the other thread has been interesting to watch. I think Mr. Cosman has a potentially good product here, but bottom line, the price is the hang up.

I am in the process of buying a 7C jointer from Mr. Werner and it needs a blade and chipbreaker. So I have been doing my research and looking at various blades/chipbreaker combinations.

Part of me buying an old plane to rehab is pride in knowing I fixed up an icon, the other (larger) part is frugality. So with that, I want to get my plane as functional as possible for the best price as possible.

There are quite a few options for me to look at. Right now, the Hock Chipbreaker and blade are leading the pack. All because of price. I can get the combo for $71. If the RC/IBC combo was the same price, then I would lean to the IBC just to try the darn thing and give some perspective rather than speculation here.

Maybe the coatings on the RC/IBC combo make up for the price difference, I am not sure yet, but I will at least investigate further before I decide.

I am not interested in the "free" DVD. Right now all I see it as is a Iron/Chipbreaker set for around $70 with a $30 DVD. There is a wealth of great information on here that has been provided by Mr. Koepke and Mr. Smalser on rehabbing the old icons, it is hard for me to believe I can get $30 more worth of information from the DVD.

Very Respectfully,
Josh

[David Weaver]

Hi Josh, if you compare products, IBC is offering a cryo treated A-2 blade and O-1 breaker. The Hock equivalent blade is $49 and the breaker (don’t think it is O-1) is $30, total on the 2 3/8" is $79 vs $105. So what else do you get for $26? T

This is plainly not the case.

They are available, and have been for over a year, for $39.50+$25 from craftsmanstudio, and the shipping is free.

Take another 6 bucks off if you prefer high carbon steel.

The fact that it's available for that has been brought up in several different threads.

If you go high carbon steel, and you have a chipbreaker in good shape, you are looking at $33.50, with no need to file the mouth of most planes. Refurbishment would be limited in general to removal of surface rust and a good scrub in hot water with a stiff bristle brush, followed by 20 minutes of lapping on a replacement glass cabinet shelf (or a little longer if you were using something short, like a lapping plate or a granite stone).

At the highest end, you are at $64.50 for the hock if you buy the chipbreaker and an A2 iron, and they are hardly difficult to match like an old iron and a damaged original stanley chipbreaker would be. In fact, I have never done anything other than hone the front edge of the chipbreaker, and I haven't seen any damage or appreciable wear in any of them. In the case that there was some wear on them from being unhardened, it's not difficult to set them in a honing jig once every 5 years, but I suspect most people won't do that.

[David Weaver]

Maybe you’re the one and none of this applies, if so that would make you the 2nd out of the 2400 I have witnessed firsthand in workshops I have taught around the woodworking world.

Good God, your cohort of students must be pulled from the remedial room.

It's not that difficult to get a $3 loupe from harbor freight and make sure that the scratches follow all the way to the edge of the iron. A used $25 dissection microscope makes it even better if you really want to see the work up close. It's not that hard.

Maybe that would be money well spent.

I somehow have the opposite experience, I don't know anyone genuinely interested in hand tools who doesn't know how to sharpen properly and who doesn't understand edge geometry.

[David Colafranceschi]

Finding $100 can be just as tough.



I would love to watch someone tune up some of the planes I have found and restored in an hour or less. Maybe we have different ideas of how the finished item should appear. Maybe we have different standards of what we will accept to tune. Maybe it is that I consider removing rust and lapping surfaces part of the tune up process and others do not. It could be that I take the time to remove the lateral adjuster and the depth stop and others do not. It could also be that I will remove the rust from the frog screws, the knob screw and the tote screws that others do not feel is necessary. I guess time could be saved by not lapping the frog or cleaning the wood.

Yes, I could take a wire wheel to the plane and just make sure the frog is on straight in less than an hour. Maybe even a chip breaker could be adjusted in that same time. But I would not want to associate my name with that being a fine user plane.

The link below shows the minimum of what I usually do to revive an old plane:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=114373

There are a some things not shown. That plane did not need repairs to the wood. It was also given a few coats of paint. It is now a very fine jointer even with a Stanley blade. The pictures in the thread do have it fitted with a Hock blade. To tell the truth, I am not sure what blade is in it currently. I only have one Hock blade of that size and four planes that are able to use it.

I have not had to spend an inordinate amount of time flattening the backs of Hock or Lie-Neilsen blades.

I have been able to smooth some pretty squirrelly grain in cherry, very dry western red cedar, mahogany, walnut, red heart, purple heart, rosewood and a few others with a very sharp Stanley blade and very light cuts.

I think the dry western red cedar was the most challenging. It was very prone to chip and split along with tear out.

I am not trying to question the quality of the blades being offered.

My antenna does go up when told that the blade is only costing so much because a DVD will accompany the blade. If the blade is not available without the DVD at a reduced cost, then the blade is still going to cost the full price.

Having some experience fixing up old planes my antenna also gets tweaked by someone telling me it shouldn't take more than an hour to tune a yard sale find. Show me good planes like that for $20 or less and I will gladly buy them all day long. Pre-ogee frog only please.

Then another thing that kind of makes me wonder is the idea that a plane that is not going to work when fitted with a properly sharpened Stanley blade is all of a sudden going to work wonders with a new blade. I will agree that due to the physics of increased mass a thicker blade can have a performance advantage over the original blades. But it is those same physics involved in making a plane a lousy plane that will keep it a lousy plane albeit with an expensive blade.

If I could buy such magic in a box to transform trash to treasure, $100 certainly would be a bargain.

jim

Jim you make some valid points but in my mind you come across as negative.

I completely disagree that an old stanley blade can be adequate to plane such things as purple heart. Before you go off steaming at the ears I made a workbench out of purple heart two years ago. Top is 24" wide by almost 8' long and almost 4" thick. I know what a regular plane blade can do because I flattened that top by hand and my LN had trouble doing the task and I had to resharpen my blade every few minutes. Don't tell me an old stanley blade could do the job because I know different. I was there, bought the t-shirt.

I have restored dozens of old machines and planes, some take longer then others but it is up to the person doing the work and how much time they would like to spend on a project. I factor all the work into a restore when I see the tool and I factor that into the price I offer for it. I have found dozens of old planes for $20-50 over the last few years and many of them can be out back into service in an hour. Now if I had to put it in a spooge tank for a day, clean it, make new totes, flatten the frog and re-enamel the body I definitely wouldn't be paying for it. I would only do that if I had sentimental value for it. It comes down to all that extra work does it make the function of the tool better? In most cases it is pure cosmetic application.

In life we can look at everything and compare it to another product and in our minds make us believe that we have made the best decision and never take constructive critisism and become better at our craft. I was like that two and a half years ago when I believed my sharpening practices were as good as anyone else's. One day someone showed me how much better I can do that operation. I could have sat there and argued a hundred points instead, I looked at it with an open mind and said you know what-it is better and I quickly adopted it.

I'm not going to go on comparing all the products in the market but at $70 +$30 for a dvd it is a pretty good deal. I have the Hock blade and chipbreaker-that is a fine tool as well. And you know what. I was that guy who thought I knew how to sharpen until I met Rob Cosman. It took him five minutes to show me how inferior my edges were. Now, I can sharpen blindfolded, with no guides or jigs and do it in seconds and be back at the bench working wood which is what I love. The tool is secondary-this is all about becoming a better woodworker.

I think it is a good product. Developed by a guy who has spent his life learning, developing and teaching hand woodworking skills. A woodworking product made by a woodworker.

[David Weaver]

Hey Don.

I hear you on the price of the Shapton stones and plate. Let me tell you this. I used to have a king gold stone, it was 8000 grit and a 1000 and 4000 norton stones and used various devices to keep them flat. I was reluctant to spend the money. I tried the Shaptons once and was sold. After I tool delivery of mine I called up a friend and gave him all my old sharpening stones.

Expensive? Yes but worth every penny.

IF nothing else, I wouldn't be afraid to buy the shapton pro or glasstone in 16K just for the simple fact that you can forget about dealing with a wire edge for nearly every steel type when you use it as a final finish stone.

IT's well worth the price. the glasstones are stupidly thin and light, though, and are much nicer to use if you affix them (with epoxy or two sided tape, though I've only used epoxy) to a base with some mass and rubber feet. The same goes for the pro stone - you'll have several "pucker factor" events when you're getting used to the stiction on the fine stones and you have them sitting in the plastic case - from nearly flinging the stone off your bench. Attach them to a base that is barely bigger than their surface area, but with some mass (i used some kingwood I had laying around), and they are nice to use.

They can be flattened with any decent diamond hone - DMT, ATOMA, etc if you don't like to use sandpaper, but also don't want to get stuck spending several bills on the shapton brand DLRP - I'm sure it's nice, but it's a lot like using a norris to plane straight grain pine downgrain - totally unnecessary.

[Rob Fisher]

...if you compare products, IBC is offering a cryo treated A-2 blade and O-1 breaker. The Hock equivalent blade is $49 and the breaker (don’t think it is O-1) is $30, total on the 2 3/8" is $79 vs $105. So what else do you get for $26? ...(snip)...

Back to the tools;

The IBC breaker is mid range hardened (30-32) O-1 with tabs that will allow you to put a .140 blade instead of a .093 in that old plane. The two pcs have been match ground, and fit perfectly to one and other so you don’t not have anything to do except hone the edge and apply the Charlesworth ruler trick to the back, total time-about 40 seconds, a minute if your new.

NO ONE

sends you a blade and breaker in this state of readiness. Set the IBC beside any competitor and you can see the difference. You have to decide if that is worth an extra $26, forget the DVD. All of this with a guarantee that if you’re not convinced you have 90 days to return it and get your $105 back so you can go buy the other guys. Personally I would test drive the Ferrari first!
Cheers
Rob


If you look around just a little bit you can find this same Hock blade (A2 @ 2 3/8") from a reputable website for $39.50 and the associated breaker for $25, for a total of $64.50, which is $40.50 less than the IBC blade and breaker, or to put it another way the IBC setup cost about 63% more than the Hock setup. These Hock blades have been this price from sometime from this seller.

I think this is the problem with this blade, it cost considerably more than an industry standard that most are comfortable with. I have no idea if the IBC blade is worth the extra $40 (or if the extra thickness makes that much of a difference) but when your argument centers around the price being cheap (relative to a new plane) it does not pass the test (compared to the mentioned Hock blades at least). If you had test reviews from reputable sources or the blades and breakers were being sold at an introductory price (not with a free DVD that some, or perhaps many, are not interested in) you may be able to get some people to believe that the IBC setup is worth 63% more than its competition, until then you are probably going to to get continued resistance from seasoned and amateur woodworkers alike. And as far as the blade out of the box being virtually ready to go, I am not sure there is much of a benefit to that as Jim has stated you need to know how to sharpen a blade once it becomes dull.

That said none of this is a reflection of your abilities as a woodworker, teacher, sharpener or anything else (except maybe marketer :D ).

Rob

[rob cosman]

Well Rob, until one of two of you tightwads split open the old wallet I guess you will never find out whether or not your missing something great. My surprise is the resistance to the idea! You risk nothing yet a few of you make this out to be like buying Enron in the final days hoping for a miracle! As for the discounters, I was taking prices off the makers site, what others do is thier business. Individual WC owners are free to sell at whatever price they want and if your a hagaler you may come away with a sweet deal. Please dont discredit the DVD until you have at least watched it, that is unfair. I have been doing this education bit for the past 25 years and have a full stable of happy woodworkers as proof I know what I am doing.
Next.

Cheers
Rob Cosman

[Don Dorn]

I'm sure the Shaptons are nice, don't get me wrong, but it seems a bit ironic that the jest of much of this thread is to lambast the $100 to buy a matched blade and chipbreaker which are thicker than anything else that will or has ever worked on a Stanley type plane, but sets you back $100.00, but people are all over spending far more than that for sharpening stones and don't think twice about it.

Again, I'm not saying they aren't worth it because I don't know. I use a different method that in the same amount of time, allows me to run a blade through receipt paper and nearly slice it in half - good enough and works for me.

My initial point was simply that the $100 blade is only the beginning in order to keep it sharp as Jim spoke of. However, Rob said that his DVD does talk about more inexpensive ways to make that happen. - Then, sharpening stones that dwarf the blade price are supported by some of the same people who lamented the cost of the blade/chip breaker. For the record, my Hocks work fine and I don't plan to get one, but the point that the thicker option is not substantually more does make a point in my opinion. The logic between the blade and stone price justifications just struck me odd.

[David Colafranceschi]

I'm sure the Shaptons are nice, don't get me wrong, but it seems a bit ironic that the jest of much of this thread is to lambast the $100 to buy a matched blade and chipbreaker which are thicker than anything else that will or has ever worked on a Stanley type plane, but sets you back $100.00, but people are all over spending far more than that for sharpening stones and don't think twice about it.

Again, I'm not saying they aren't worth it because I don't know. I use a different method that in the same amount of time, allows me to run a blade through receipt paper and nearly slice it in half - good enough and works for me.

My initial point was simply that the $100 blade is only the beginning in order to keep it sharp as Jim spoke of. However, Rob said that his DVD does talk about more inexpensive ways to make that happen. - Then, sharpening stones that dwarf the blade price are supported by some of the same people who lamented the cost of the blade/chip breaker. For the record, my Hocks work fine and I don't plan to get one, but the point that the thicker option is not substantually more does make a point in my opinion. The logic between the blade and stone price justifications just struck me odd.

I agree. They are odd. You can get a sharp blade using other methods that are more cost effective. I have been there but the Shaptons are a step ahead, in fact many steps but they are very expensive. It's a matter of budget. Buy what you can afford. If you can afford the Shaptons I would say buy them. If you can only afford a combo norton stone, then that is all you can do. It kind of sucks. If I had to buy them today I couldn't afford them but I am glad I did two years ago, they should last me several years before I have to look at adding a new stone. It's like everything in life. There is good, better and best but your wallet dictates what you can add to your kit.

[Jim Koepke]

The cost of sharpening systems does at times seem insane.

If one has less than a dozen blades to sharpen, then it does not seem logical to buy a super motorized sharpening system and 5 grades of stones to touch up a few tools.

On the other end if you have hundreds of blades and can afford to own them, you owe it to yourself to purchase a system you can afford to keep those blades useable.

Scary sharp is great for the beginner as there is not a lot of investment in materials.

For the more advanced sharpener, it can be expensive if it is the only system in your shop. It does come in useful when rehabilitating an old blade. Being able to slap down 4 feet of 80 grit to flatten the back of a chisel or plane blade makes for quick work.


Beyond that, we each have to decide what works best for us and our wallet.

jim

[Mark Roderick]

For what it's worth, and that's probably not much, I just don't like the pseudo-advertising going on here.

I don't like when Rob Cosmen says "I've tried other blades and didn't like them, but this one - the one I'm selling - is much different." I just don't believe it. To me, it's not plausible that Rob saw no difference in results when using, say, a Hock or Lie-Nielsen replacement blade, but now sees a marked different in using the one he sells. I think it's implausible based on my own experience and it strains belief considering the commercial context in which the statement is made.

In the same way, I didn't like when, in the other thread, Rob said "I don't really like any of the marking knives on the market, but soon I'll be selling my own." Come on. You don't like ANY of the blades on the market? And it's just coincidental that you're saying this in the context of announcing your own product?

Rob is a well-known expert and deserves to be respected as such. And for that matter, I wish him all the best in his business endeavors, realizing that if Rob can be successful selling hand tools it means the hand tool market is healthy. But at Sawmill Creek I've come to expect experts to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I just have the very uncomfortable feeling that Rob is allowing the salesman in him to overshadow the expert. I do not get the same feeling when Rob Lee is talking about tools.

Anyway, that's my take on the discussion.

[Brian Kincaid]

For what it's worth, and that's probably not much, I just don't like the pseudo-advertising going on here.

I don't like when Rob Cosmen says "I've tried other blades and didn't like them, but this one - the one I'm selling - is much different." I just don't believe it. To me, it's not plausible that Rob saw no difference in results when using, say, a Hock or Lie-Nielsen replacement blade, but now sees a marked different in using the one he sells. I think it's implausible based on my own experience and it strains belief considering the commercial context in which the statement is made.

In the same way, I didn't like when, in the other thread, Rob said "I don't really like any of the marking knives on the market, but soon I'll be selling my own." Come on. You don't like ANY of the blades on the market? And it's just coincidental that you're saying this in the context of announcing your own product?

Rob is a well-known expert and deserves to be respected as such. And for that matter, I wish him all the best in his business endeavors, realizing that if Rob can be successful selling hand tools it means the hand tool market is healthy. But at Sawmill Creek I've come to expect experts to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I just have the very uncomfortable feeling that Rob is allowing the salesman in him to overshadow the expert. I do not get the same feeling when Rob Lee is talking about tools.

Anyway, that's my take on the discussion.

BIG +1
-Brian

[Jim Koepke]

For what it's worth, and that's probably not much, I just don't like the pseudo-advertising going on here.

I don't like when Rob Cosmen says "I've tried other blades and didn't like them, but this one - the one I'm selling - is much different." I just don't believe it. To me, it's not plausible that Rob saw no difference in results when using, say, a Hock or Lie-Nielsen replacement blade, but now sees a marked different in using the one he sells. I think it's implausible based on my own experience and it strains belief considering the commercial context in which the statement is made.

In the same way, I didn't like when, in the other thread, Rob said "I don't really like any of the marking knives on the market, but soon I'll be selling my own." Come on. You don't like ANY of the blades on the market? And it's just coincidental that you're saying this in the context of announcing your own product?

Rob is a well-known expert and deserves to be respected as such. And for that matter, I wish him all the best in his business endeavors, realizing that if Rob can be successful selling hand tools it means the hand tool market is healthy. But at Sawmill Creek I've come to expect experts to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I just have the very uncomfortable feeling that Rob is allowing the salesman in him to overshadow the expert. I do not get the same feeling when Rob Lee is talking about tools.

Anyway, that's my take on the discussion.

I am in agreement on this and have stated some of the points that have caused my uncertainty.

jim

[Wayne Hendrix]

Me personally, I am still waiting for the IBC president to counter what Rob Lee had to say about Cosman's claims that IBC deserves the credit for Veritas' awards.

Further since, if I understand correctly, IBC is no longer making the blades for Veritas and these new blades are labeled as Pinnacle, the WoodCraft brand, I get the impression that IBC needed someone to sell their blades to and contacted WoodCraft who said something to the effect of "Yeah your blades are great but no one knows who you are, you need an endorser, or no one will pay $100 for a blade." So IBC sends a blade to Rob Cosman and the rest you pretty much know.

These are just my musings but like I first said, I am still waiting for the IBC president to respond to the original thread.

[David Weaver]

For what it's worth, and that's probably not much, I just don't like the pseudo-advertising going on here.

I don't like when Rob Cosmen says "I've tried other blades and didn't like them, but this one - the one I'm selling - is much different." I just don't believe it. To me, it's not plausible that Rob saw no difference in results when using, say, a Hock or Lie-Nielsen replacement blade, but now sees a marked different in using the one he sells. I think it's implausible based on my own experience and it strains belief considering the commercial context in which the statement is made.

In the same way, I didn't like when, in the other thread, Rob said "I don't really like any of the marking knives on the market, but soon I'll be selling my own." Come on. You don't like ANY of the blades on the market? And it's just coincidental that you're saying this in the context of announcing your own product?

Rob is a well-known expert and deserves to be respected as such. And for that matter, I wish him all the best in his business endeavors, realizing that if Rob can be successful selling hand tools it means the hand tool market is healthy. But at Sawmill Creek I've come to expect experts to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I just have the very uncomfortable feeling that Rob is allowing the salesman in him to overshadow the expert. I do not get the same feeling when Rob Lee is talking about tools.

Anyway, that's my take on the discussion.

Well stated. It's not the content, it's the delivery.

I like the guys at WC quite a bit. I was frustrated with them leaving my neighborhood when they did, even though I had kind of bought everything I was going to buy from the store, and after voicing my frustrations publicly on another forum and because of a question about one of the items they sold, I could a PM from someone at corporate, way up the ladder - with an explanation of the situation with the local store, and since then several back-and-forths about different situations there, including what likely had woodcraft out finding another way to get a full line of replacement irons since they knew they were going to get cut off from LN.

I haven't seen the chipbreaker, i'm sure it's as good as any other chipbreaker. I have seen two of the irons first hand, they are a very well prepared A2 iron. What's unfortunate is that I think they would sell themselves, and generally drawing comparisons should be left to reviewers and purchasers of the products. For all of the good aspects, comments like "superior metallurgy" (which is simply not the case, all of the A2 irons are similar, save a few small-line bad ones, like the ones that come in shepherd kits) and repeated comparisons to Lie-Nielsen make it seem like a playground contest.

The iron and chipbreaker will do fine on their own. I think WC corporate has their intentions in the right place - they're running toward hand tools instead of away from them, like everyone else save a few one-store retailers seem to be, and I know there is more in the pipeline this year or next year. For their (WCs) sake, please discuss the merits of the tools without using terms like "superior to others" - the users and the reviewers will do plenty to let the market know if they're the best.

[Matt Radtke]

Me p
These are just my musings but like I first said, I am still waiting for the IBC president to respond to the original thread.

That happened. It was its own thread that was deleted along with the original RC IBC blade thread. Pretty sure it they were deleted because they basically devolved into he said/she said. Seems like we're heading the same way again. . .

[David Weaver]

Me personally, I am still waiting for the IBC president to counter what Rob Lee had to say about Cosman's claims that IBC deserves the credit for Veritas' awards.

Further since, if I understand correctly, IBC is no longer making the blades for Veritas and these new blades are labeled as Pinnacle, the WoodCraft brand, I get the impression that IBC needed someone to sell their blades to and contacted WoodCraft who said something to the effect of "Yeah your blades are great but no one knows who you are, you need an endorser, or no one will pay $100 for a blade." So IBC sends a blade to Rob Cosman and the rest you pretty much know.

These are just my musings but like I first said, I am still waiting for the IBC president to respond to the original thread.

Well, he did respond, but it became a contest of the wrong kind. Probably no reason to rehash it. Maybe someone who saves stuff like that will send you a PM of it. It was a book.

I would imagine the supply of irons had more to do with WC having ongoing supply issues with LN, as was stated on one of the other forums as being the reason for the discontinuance of LN - by both someone at WC corporate and someone at LN. When those irons rolled out, they already knew that relationship was rocky because LN was feeling pressured by WCs quantity demands, and WC was trying to figure out a way to get the quantity of planes they wanted. At the same time, LN was making it clear they wanted more sales from demonstrations and from their web storefront where they have control over the flow of information, rather than from retail where similar instruction may or may not have been available..

Anyway, if you're a retailer, and a supplier is saying "we can't do that without lowering quality, so we're not going to ", then you're left either just taking what you can get or trying to figure out how to make up the volume. There was another supplier available with capacity, so what do you do?

That's just my guess about what was going on. I talked to WC corporate when the big hullabaloo went down over the 20% off sale and everybody and their brother was supposing (or rather stating) that's where the troubles started and ended. While that may not have helped, the notion that everything was hunky dory before then is just untrue.

I think WCs intentions are in the right place, and i think LN's intentions are in the right place. That doesn't mean they were designed to do business together indefinitely - things change. Doesn't mean that there always has to be a villain.

[Wayne Hendrix]

That happened. It was its own thread that was deleted along with the original RC IBC blade thread. Pretty sure it they were deleted because they basically devolved into he said/she said. Seems like we're heading the same way again. . .

Thanks I had wondered if I had missed it.

[Matt Radtke]

The part about this that rubs me the wrong way is my "snake oil" sense. The marketing vibe from the matched-set and DVD seems to be "This magical product will cure all that ails your plane! Step right up folks!" That may not be fair, but it's what I'm picking and what I think some of the others are too.

Tell us why having all these extra finishing steps on the iron make it work better AND why it's worth the price premium. Either we aren't you target demographic or the pitch to us isn't hitting the right notes.

[David Weaver]

The cost of sharpening systems does at times seem insane.

If one has less than a dozen blades to sharpen, then it does not seem logical to buy a super motorized sharpening system and 5 grades of stones to touch up a few tools.

On the other end if you have hundreds of blades and can afford to own them, you owe it to yourself to purchase a system you can afford to keep those blades useable.

Scary sharp is great for the beginner as there is not a lot of investment in materials.

For the more advanced sharpener, it can be expensive if it is the only system in your shop. It does come in useful when rehabilitating an old blade. Being able to slap down 4 feet of 80 grit to flatten the back of a chisel or plane blade makes for quick work.


Beyond that, we each have to decide what works best for us and our wallet.

jim

I don't think it's necessary for anyone to have an expensive sharpener, but I will admit I do, I like it a lot.

But I could really easily get along with a cheap stationary belt sander, a cheap medium stone and a piece of 3/4 MDF with a pea sized dab of Autosol on it, a lot better than I can tolerate sandpaper. For someone who already has a stationary belt sander, the cost of said system would be about $40, and under my dissection microscope, the edge looks just as good as it does from a stone, and it leaves the same waxy-perfect surface with no lines on endgrain pine.

I still use the shapton stones and the expensive sharpener, because it's more convenient, but I really could get along without all of it just fine - my work wouldn't look any different.

What's even more fun is to put a piece of 1/8th vegetable tanned leather on the disc on that same sander and load it with green chromium stuff from LV. Instant power strop.

[Wayne Hendrix]

Well, he did respond, but it became a contest of the wrong kind. Probably no reason to rehash it. Maybe someone who saves stuff like that will send you a PM of it. It was a book.

I would imagine the supply of irons had more to do with WC having ongoing supply issues with LN, as was stated on one of the other forums as being the reason for the discontinuance of LN - by both someone at WC corporate and someone at LN. When those irons rolled out, they already knew that relationship was rocky because LN was feeling pressured by WCs quantity demands, and WC was trying to figure out a way to get the quantity of planes they wanted. At the same time, LN was making it clear they wanted more sales from demonstrations and from their web storefront where they have control over the flow of information, rather than from retail where similar instruction may or may not have been available..

Anyway, if you're a retailer, and a supplier is saying "we can't do that without lowering quality, so we're not going to ", then you're left either just taking what you can get or trying to figure out how to make up the volume. There was another supplier available with capacity, so what do you do?

That's just my guess about what was going on. I talked to WC corporate when the big hullabaloo went down over the 20% off sale and everybody and their brother was supposing (or rather stating) that's where the troubles started and ended. While that may not have helped, the notion that everything was hunky dory before then is just untrue.

I think WCs intentions are in the right place, and i think LN's intentions are in the right place. That doesn't mean they were designed to do business together indefinitely - things change. Doesn't mean that there always has to be a villain.

Oh I absolutely agree, I think that LN, WC and IBC are all doing what is best for them and actually for us also. I think that LN is sticking to what makes them who they are and that WC and IBC are working together to bring some high quality replacement blades to the general woodworking population.

I guess the main thing that I was trying to state in my first post was that from everything I have read and heard Rob Cosman is the pitchman for these new IBC blades and to not expect a full and impartial point of view from him when it comes to replacement irons.

[David Colafranceschi]

As always. These threads seem to take on a different life and one that it was not intended for. I guess it is a way for people to let off steam and voice their views.

Sad thing the product was intended for the person who does not use hand tools, may have a limited budget and not looking to spend a tremendous amount of money. With the video and the blade and a donor tool someone could have made use of a relic that was initially unused and headed for the dumpster. Maybe one of the few who tried it would have enjoyed the process a little to take it a step further and maybe learn hand woodworking a little more. For the others it would have given them an option if not anything. Competition if anything forces manufacturers to increase the quality of their products.

But again, one of these threads has gone off on a tangent.

[Brian Kent]

Friends, friends, friends,

I have a civil way of answering these questions. I have a halfway decent Stanley #4 with original blade. Please send me the appropriate replacement blade and chip breakers from Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, Hock, and IBC, and I would be happy to review them - for FREE!. ;)

Brian the Tightwad

[Wayne Hendrix]

Friends, friends, friends,

I have a civil way of answering these questions. I have a halfway decent Stanley #4 with original blade. Please send me the appropriate replacement blade and chip breakers from Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, Hock, and IBC, and I would be happy to review them. ;)

Brian the Tightwad

Oh excellent idea and since I have an equivalent Millers Falls No. 9 maybe they could send me blades to make sure they work in the Millers Falls.

[Jim Koepke]

Friends, friends, friends,

I have a civil way of answering these questions. I have a halfway decent Stanley #4 with original blade. Please send me the appropriate replacement blade and chip breakers from Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, Hock, and IBC, and I would be happy to review them - for FREE!. ;)

Brian the Tightwad

I will see Brian's excellent suggestion and up him one.

I have Stanley/Bailey planes that will fit the three IBC sizes offered. I can also make videos and post them on YouTube. I already have Stanley and Hock HC blades for the three sizes involved.

So, we can try blades and chip breakers out of the box, with video.

We may also be able to find a few folks here on SMC that live in proximity of each other who would want to take on this effort. Sounds like a good reason for a BBQ.

Let the shavings begin,

jim

[Wayne Hendrix]

I will see Brian's excellent suggestion and up him one.

I have Stanley/Bailey planes that will fit the three IBC sizes offered. I can also make videos and post them on YouTube. I already have Stanley and Hock HC blades for the three sizes involved.

So, we can try blades and chip breakers out of the box, with video.

We may also be able to find a few folks here on SMC that live in proximity of each other who would want to take on this effort. Sounds like a good reason for a BBQ.

Let the shavings begin,

jim

Sounds like a great idea, I'm in. Now I just have to convince my wife that the only logical place to go for vacation this year is somplace close to your house.

[michael osadchuk]

I will see Brian's excellent suggestion and up him one.

I have Stanley/Bailey planes that will fit the three IBC sizes offered. I can also make videos and post them on YouTube. I already have Stanley and Hock HC blades for the three sizes involved.

So, we can try blades and chip breakers out of the box, with video.

We may also be able to find a few folks here on SMC that live in proximity of each other who would want to take on this effort. Sounds like a good reason for a BBQ.

Let the shavings begin,

jim

Rob Cosman,
Given that Jim Koepke has a track record of providing detailed "how to" posts and assessments in reburbishing/upgrading older/classic planes, I hope that you accept his offer to review your product and post his assessments/videos here.

If others agree, please second the nomination (before Jim has a chance to give the matter second thoughts and back out.... smiley)

thanks

michael

[David Weaver]

Rob - save a few small line bad ones means if you go out and find an iron with a name you never heard of before, you might find that it isn't the quality of the big makers.

I have used multiple irons from LN, LV, Hock, and IBC - they are obviously not in the small-line group.

Of the larger makers, Ididn't find any practical difference once they were two grinds past new. If I would've had the stamina to take a sample of mean time to failure, I may not even find a statistically significant difference between any of them. Some were more prone to chipout before two grinds, but it's an iron by iron issue and not a brand issue - the same thing exists within a brand.

Anyway, the comment about watching out for some small-line meaning that people have commented several times on here that their shepherd A2 iron was bum, and Brent Beach went on to confirm that in testing. That's something I found disappointing because I have one sitting in a box waiting to go in a plane that no other Iron I have will fit. I'll probably have to make one out of O1, which will mean tedious cutting, marking, drilling and filing.

Anyway, I've also used multiple irons from Steve Knight, and his irons are also excellent, but they are an entirely different animal, and they are O1. Mujingfang's are also great - the most durable I have tried, but they are HSS of some sort and they don't fit bench planes.

Every single japanese iron I have tried, budget or not, has been excellent - stunningly excellent.

In the interest of full disclosure, I received the IBC irons for free quite a long while ago in return for my thoughts on them. That's where my previous opinion came from - they are very nicely prepared irons with some thoughtful extras that in use have similar durability to the other main-line irons I have. It's hardly bad company to be in.

I guess I could be accused of bias if someone wanted to push the issue, but I don't know what bias shows up by saying "they're all the same".

[Phil Maddox]

For what it's worth, and that's probably not much, I just don't like the pseudo-advertising going on here.

I don't like when Rob Cosmen says "I've tried other blades and didn't like them, but this one - the one I'm selling - is much different." I just don't believe it. To me, it's not plausible that Rob saw no difference in results when using, say, a Hock or Lie-Nielsen replacement blade, but now sees a marked different in using the one he sells. I think it's implausible based on my own experience and it strains belief considering the commercial context in which the statement is made.

In the same way, I didn't like when, in the other thread, Rob said "I don't really like any of the marking knives on the market, but soon I'll be selling my own." Come on. You don't like ANY of the blades on the market? And it's just coincidental that you're saying this in the context of announcing your own product?

Rob is a well-known expert and deserves to be respected as such. And for that matter, I wish him all the best in his business endeavors, realizing that if Rob can be successful selling hand tools it means the hand tool market is healthy. But at Sawmill Creek I've come to expect experts to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I just have the very uncomfortable feeling that Rob is allowing the salesman in him to overshadow the expert. I do not get the same feeling when Rob Lee is talking about tools.

Anyway, that's my take on the discussion.

+1 - for me anyway. The $ is too close to what a LV costs ready to go - with a better plane body.

Phil M

[Jim Koepke]

It is not my intention to receive a "free" blade for consideration. My wife is not likely to let me pony up for a bunch of blades or even one without my having a good reason to justify the expenditure.

She would likely not mind if I paid postage both ways to evaluate and return a blade. I guess the other option would be to buy and return the blade for a refund. I do not feel right about doing this kind of business. I only feel right about returning a product that I find to be less than what I thought I was buying. I do not expect to find your product defective or lacking.

To turn it in to a single video, I would likely also have to spring $30 for some video editing software, but that wouldn't be too hard to talk her into allowing me to purchase.

In this case, I would only be able to do comparisons with Stanley and Hock high carbon blades as those are all that I own. I do have a plane with an LN A1 blade, but that is not a real comparison since it is a different plane than the others.

jim

[Phil Maddox]

[QUOTE=

As for the comment about Rob Lee talking about his tools on this thread and you dont call that advertising? Must be a public service announcement.

Cheers
Rob[/QUOTE]

Rob C. - You don't seem to be getting the point. It's all about the delivery. In my opinion, it sounds like you have the cure for everyone's problems. Rob never puts other products down that I am aware of. His products stand on their own.

In one of your last posts, you indicate that WC buys the video from you and includes it with the iron - that has to cost money - it seems as though offering the product without the video would create an easier sell - although you would not make any $ from it.

Good luck.

Phil

[Rob Fisher]

It is not my intention to receive a "free" blade for consideration. My wife is not likely to let me pony up for a bunch of blades or even one without my having a good reason to justify the expenditure.

She would likely not mind if I paid postage both ways to evaluate and return a blade. I guess the other option would be to buy and return the blade for a refund. I do not feel right about doing this kind of business. I only feel right about returning a product that I find to be less than what I thought I was buying. I do not expect to find your product defective or lacking.

To turn it in to a single video, I would likely also have to spring $30 for some video editing software, but that wouldn't be too hard to talk her into allowing me to purchase.

In this case, I would only be able to do comparisons with Stanley and Hock high carbon blades as those are all that I own. I do have a plane with an LN A1 blade, but that is not a real comparison since it is a different plane than the others.

jim

Since RC isn't interested in sending out tester blades (even though many in the industry do send out test tools when they first arrive on the market), and Jim has graciously offered to review, I will chip in $20 for Jim to buy a blade and breaker and review it (and keep it as an offering for providing the review). Anyone else interested, can we get it to $100 so he can get a setup to review?

I figure Jim has offered way more than 20 beans worth of free advice, and I haven't gotten through anywhere near all of his how to threads.

Jim what do you think?

Rob, the tightwad (not Rob, the potentially snake oil, salesman :D )

[Matt Radtke]

I'll chip in $10 towards the Jim K review fund. I'd also be willing to do any editing you need, Jim (though you shouldn't need me. You have a Mac, right? iMove HD to the rescue!)

[Larry Williams]

Hi Josh, if you compare products, IBC is offering a cryo treated A-2 blade and O-1 breaker. The Hock equivalent blade is $49 and the breaker (don’t think it is O-1) is $30, total on the 2 3/8" is $79 vs $105. So what else do you get for $26? There is the DVD and if you are up to snuff on tuning, sharpening, grinding and planing then you may not need it. Just before you toss it out consider this. I travel and teach this stuff each weekend somewhere in the US, Canada or England. In the last two months I have been in Tennessee (twice), Wisconsin, California, Michigan, England and South Carolina. Without exception everywhere I go I get the same response from the novice to the professional, "I thought I knew how to sharpen"! Don’t take this as boasting, I don’t fly this many miles to feed my ego, I'm on a mission.

Teach traditional woodworking and revive the craft.

I very rarely find someone that can sharpen a chisel or plane blade properly. Maybe you’re the one and none of this applies, if so that would make you the 2nd out of the 2400 I have witnessed firsthand in workshops I have taught around the woodworking world. I have demonstrated to tens of thousands but of the folks that have come to my workshops with their tools in hand I am telling you what I have witnessed. I have David Charlesworth to back me on this, his comment to me a few years ago was that since 1975 he has only had two students show up at his workshops with properly sharpened tools.

Back to the tools;

The IBC breaker is mid range hardened (30-32) O-1 with tabs that will allow you to put a .140 blade instead of a .093 in that old plane. The two pcs have been match ground, and fit perfectly to one and other so you don’t not have anything to do except hone the edge and apply the Charlesworth ruler trick to the back, total time-about 40 seconds, a minute if your new.

NO ONE

sends you a blade and breaker in this state of readiness. Set the IBC beside any competitor and you can see the difference. You have to decide if that is worth an extra $26, forget the DVD. All of this with a guarantee that if you’re not convinced you have 90 days to return it and get your $105 back so you can go buy the other guys. Personally I would test drive the Ferrari first!
Cheers
Rob

The bally, the pitch, the turn and this is noncommercial? Billy Mays must be laughing somewhere tonight.

[Jim Koepke]

Since RC isn't interested in sending out tester blades (even though many in the industry do send out test tools when they first arrive on the market), and Jim has graciously offered to review, I will chip in $20 for Jim to buy a blade and breaker and review it (and keep it as an offering for providing the review). Anyone else interested, can we get it to $100 so he can get a setup to review?

I figure Jim has offered way more than 20 beans worth of free advice, and I haven't gotten through anywhere near all of his how to threads.

Jim what do you think?

Rob, the tightwad (not Rob, the potentially snake oil, salesman :D )


I'll chip in $10 towards the Jim K review fund. I'd also be willing to do any editing you need, Jim (though you shouldn't need me. You have a Mac, right? iMove HD to the rescue!)

Rob,

I feel honored.

Matt,

I was thinking of using QuickTime Pro to splice a few videos together. I think it would work for that. Otherwise maybe I could send you the videos to edit.

As to others paying for the blade, I think the fair thing to do after the evaluation would be to figure out a contest for one of the contributors to win the blade or to put it into the SMC FreeStuff Drawings. Maybe we could have a Neanderthal Haven Essay of so many words or less as to why the writer should receive the blade and then set up a vote for the winner. It could be a lot of fun.

I think it should be up to those who contribute to decide.

Looks like there is $30 pledged, I can pay the shipping from WC and to the eventual winner of the contest/drawing. Heck, if it gets close, maybe I can convince the wife to let me throw in a few more bucks.

jim

[rob cosman]

How right you are Phil but try thinking of it this way. The target market is the guy that does not currently use a plane (I hear an echo). If he buys the blade and breaker without the knowledge on what to do, how to sharpen and how to plane, what happens? Let me tell you, it gets returned or goes on the shelf and gets added to the reason he bought that sander. Please tell me what you fear? Your concerns are not rational. Anyone can return all the items if they chose to. They can watch the DVD, hone the iron, try it in their plane and if they still think buying a cheaper set up would be better they return it for a full refund.

I think I get it, it is your hobby but my profession. Somehow me making money off what you do for fun is wrong. Let me tell you what you have to do, put in 10,000 hours at whatever part of woodworking you like best, get better than most, quit your job and go for it. Oh don’t forget you have to raise your family at the same time, keep food on the table, pay the bills and in about 10 years you should be able to sustain yourself. Did I hit a nerve?
cheers
Rob Cosman
robcosman.com

[rob cosman]

Way to go Jim, dinner is on me this fall when I get to Longview.
cheers,
Rob Cosman,
snake oil salesman.......................................... .of the yearhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
(father always said "be the best")

[rob cosman]

and an IBC blade!

[Brian Sullivan]

Still going on with the IBC-Veritas stuff?

[michael osadchuk]

I'll pledge $10 toward Jim's effort in reviewing the product.

michael

[Wayne Hendrix]

Rob,

I feel honored.

Matt,

I was thinking of using QuickTime Pro to splice a few videos together. I think it would work for that. Otherwise maybe I could send you the videos to edit.

As to others paying for the blade, I think the fair thing to do after the evaluation would be to figure out a contest for one of the contributors to win the blade or to put it into the SMC FreeStuff Drawings. Maybe we could have a Neanderthal Haven Essay of so many words or less as to why the writer should receive the blade and then set up a vote for the winner. It could be a lot of fun.

I think it should be up to those who contribute to decide.

Looks like there is $30 pledged, I can pay the shipping from WC and to the eventual winner of the contest/drawing. Heck, if it gets close, maybe I can convince the wife to let me throw in a few more bucks.

jim

I'll pledge $15 for the blade and $5 for the refreshment that you are going to need.

And for what its worth I think that you will find the blade is going to be excellent.

[Wayne Hendrix]

Still going on with the IBC-Veritas stuff?

Not really I think it has actually turned civil. Well at least as civil as you can possibly get for a bunch of neanderthals.

The real fight is going to come when Jim gets enough to buy the blade and then we have to decide who gets it after his review.

[Larry Williams]

Opinions? Okay.

A-2 steel, cap irons, cryo tempering and the "ruler trick" are all snake oil. I don't need them in my life. The only thing of value I see here is getting people to fix the worn out mouths of old Stanley planes.

I've been writing about that wear for years. Below is a photo that I've posted a lot of times to illustrate that wear. People could just file that away and move their frog forward a little and get everything you offer without the cost or ongoing cascading problems they'll have with A-2 or the ruler trick. I won't tell anyone about this simple fix if you'll just add a "but wait, there's more" line in your pitch. If nothing else, you could add it for my amusement. ;)

http://www.planemaker.com/photos/4mouth.jpg

[rob cosman]

Thanks Larry, got a good belly laugh out of that one. Seems we need to start a few new threads, the ruler trick would be an interesting one. That would help draw some more lines in the sand. The A-2 has me curious, take that one further please. As for the "order now and will include......." can’t help you with that one, I don’t sell them. However the next time were in the same town let’s get together and discuss this. Tennessee this weekend, you?
Rob

[Pam Niedermayer]

Funny how this IBC nonsense never gets anywhere on the other woodworking forums who are familiar with Cosmo's selling techniques.

Pam

[Mark Roderick]

Rob, I also find your comments about sharpening to be objectionable.

Your posts perpetuate the myth that sharpening is some kind of holy grail, where success can be achieved only by the specially initiated using methods gleaned from the pattern of oak leaves on the forest floor, smoke trails rising from the Eastern mountains - or these three terrific DVDs available for today's special online price of $________!

I understand that the myth serves your commercial interests, but it also holds many novice woodworkers back in general and keeps them from trying hand tools in particular. You know and I know that sharpening is not magic and really not very difficult.

Say whatever you want on your own web site, but when you come to a site like this, where novices are looking for advice, and you spin the truth in a way that could lead a novice in the wrong direction, I think you are stepping over the line.

Take this for what it's worth, but I also think you're posts in this thread are doing more to undermine your "brand" than anything a competitor could possibly say.

[jerry nazard]

Funny how this IBC nonsense never gets anywhere on the other woodworking forums who are familiar with Cosmo's selling techniques.

Pam

Well, sometimes it gets some amusing snickers!

We could end this now by starting a thread on Festool vs EzSmart....

[Jim Koepke]

Well, sometimes it gets some amusing snickers!

We could end this now by starting a thread on Festool vs EzSmart....

I wasn't aware they made hand tools.

jim

[jerry nazard]

I wasn't aware they made hand tools.

jim

I see your point. :rolleyes:

If you must know, my serious position on the IBC/chipbreaker/video matter is that if something benefits woodworking/woodworkers, so be it. If you don't want or need something, don't buy it. We so often let silly little matters that we have no direct control over mushroom into rancorous conflict. Cosman does a great job of promoting woodworking and should be commended for it, whether you agree with his marketing strategies or not.

Anyway, my morning has been devoted to sharpening and maintenance before I start another set of drawers. I found the neatest way to tighten the lateral adjust lever on a couple of T-9 and T-11's. I used a 3/8 cast iron beam clamp as a vise to tighten the lever pin. Works like a charm and the frog remains in place; you just need to remove the tote.

Looking forward to your test results!

-Jerry (with his lateral adjustments properly tensioned....) :D

[Jim Koepke]

Jim you make some valid points but in my mind you come across as negative.

I completely disagree that an old stanley blade can be adequate to plane such things as purple heart. Before you go off steaming at the ears I made a workbench out of purple heart two years ago. Top is 24" wide by almost 8' long and almost 4" thick. I know what a regular plane blade can do because I flattened that top by hand and my LN had trouble doing the task and I had to resharpen my blade every few minutes. Don't tell me an old stanley blade could do the job because I know different. I was there, bought the t-shirt.

I have restored dozens of old machines and planes, some take longer then others but it is up to the person doing the work and how much time they would like to spend on a project. I factor all the work into a restore when I see the tool and I factor that into the price I offer for it. I have found dozens of old planes for $20-50 over the last few years and many of them can be out back into service in an hour. Now if I had to put it in a spooge tank for a day, clean it, make new totes, flatten the frog and re-enamel the body I definitely wouldn't be paying for it. I would only do that if I had sentimental value for it. It comes down to all that extra work does it make the function of the tool better? In most cases it is pure cosmetic application.

In life we can look at everything and compare it to another product and in our minds make us believe that we have made the best decision and never take constructive critisism and become better at our craft. I was like that two and a half years ago when I believed my sharpening practices were as good as anyone else's. One day someone showed me how much better I can do that operation. I could have sat there and argued a hundred points instead, I looked at it with an open mind and said you know what-it is better and I quickly adopted it.

I'm not going to go on comparing all the products in the market but at $70 +$30 for a dvd it is a pretty good deal. I have the Hock blade and chipbreaker-that is a fine tool as well. And you know what. I was that guy who thought I knew how to sharpen until I met Rob Cosman. It took him five minutes to show me how inferior my edges were. Now, I can sharpen blindfolded, with no guides or jigs and do it in seconds and be back at the bench working wood which is what I love. The tool is secondary-this is all about becoming a better woodworker.

I think it is a good product. Developed by a guy who has spent his life learning, developing and teaching hand woodworking skills. A woodworking product made by a woodworker.

David,

I am not trying to negate any of Mr. Cosman's work.

And yes some woods, especially those with high silica content, will dull an old Stanley blade quicker than they will a modern blade made with A2 steel.

My experience with sharpening has taught me that it is likely that there will always be something more to learn. It has also taught me that "proper sharpening" is open to a wide interpretation. What with micro bevels, the ruler trick, cambered edge and so many other theories floating about, threads on sharpening are one of the few topics that would match this one for length.

My expression of concern has been about some of the methods and claims used in marketing.

To quote you, "at $70 +$30 for a dvd it is a pretty good deal."
Since the blade will not be sold for less without the DVD, I guess my question should be does this DVD regularly bring this kind of money on ebay. If this blade is the answer to my planing problems, wouldn't it follow that one would be bought for all of my planes? How many copies of the DVD do I need?

Another issue may be just my being a little put off by cavalier sales techniques. In one post, Rob asks another person to buy a blade and asks if they need one for the #4 or for a #5-1/2. None of the RC IBC blades I have seen listed will fit my #5-1/2. There are a lot of #5-1/2s out there that require a 2-1/4 inch blade. If this blade is being marketed to those who are just beginning their use of hand tools, this could lead them to buy a blade for gandpa's old plane that will lead them down the path of frustration.

By a path of making some fun with another post, I have now possibly committed myself to doing a test and evaluation of an IBC blade and of course the video. I will likely buy an A2 blade either from Ron Hock or LN just to have another blade of comparable metal to test against it. The only after market blade currently in my shop are one no name and Hock high carbon blades.

I am sure that A2 steel will likely hold up better than any of my old Stanley blades. Especially in woods like purple heart.

Ron Hock once said something in a way that gave me the feeling he has said it to many people. He was holding one of his blades and said, "people do not buy my blades, they are buying that," and he pointed at the surface I had just planed with one of his blades. I bought three with chip breakers on the spot.

To me that is sort of what the old phrase means, "don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle."

Maybe in the days before radio and television it was, "Don't sell the snake, sell the oil."

jim

[David Weaver]

Maybe in the days before radio and television it was, "Don't sell the snake, sell the oil."

jim

Or as morty seinfeld said, "the best way to sell clothes is dim lighting and cheap fabric"

Wait...that doesn't really fit, does it? :D

[Dave Anderson NH]

This thread has run its course and is now getting borderline like its predecessor. All have argued their viewpoints and we are beginning to degenerate to the point where personal attacks (veiled) are occuring.

This thread is now locked.