Plane questions

[Chas Fuggetta]

Howdy Gang!

Just a quick question about setting up a #5 and a #4.

How much of a mouth opening do you have for each of the above planes? I was reading a book and it stated that a smaller opening was desirable for fine shaving and a larger one for thicker. So, how big do you go?

I had set my frogs so that the iron was just a hair off the near side of the mouth resulting in .100 and .125" gap from the blade to the front of the mouth. I didn't realize you could move it further forward. :rolleyes:

[Jim Koepke]

Currently there are 2 #4s and 3 #5s in my shop. One of the #5s will likely be sold when it is finished being fettled. It works fine now, but there is room for improvement and I want to make it better.

Of the 2 other #5s, one is set up for taking a coarse shaving which has the mouth fairly open. If there were only one #5 in the shop, that is likely how it would be set. Currently, the other #5 is set a bit too tight in the mouth. It clogs a bit too easy so it needs to be opened just a hair. It had a different blade in it and was readjusted when the blade was changed and hasn't been used a lot. Some woods are fine, others make dust and jam the mouth.

The #4s are set up fairly tight mouth and very tight mouth. The tight mouth one is only used for very light smoothing. The fairly tight is used for general smoothing.

If my shop had only one of each, the #4 would be set with a fairly tight mouth for smoothing and the #5 would be open for the rougher work.

With 3 #5s in the shop, some thought has been given to making one into a full blown scrub plane.

jim

[David Weaver]

Howdy Gang!

Just a quick question about setting up a #5 and a #4.

How much of a mouth opening do you have for each of the above planes? I was reading a book and it stated that a smaller opening was desirable for fine shaving and a larger one for thicker. So, how big do you go?

I had set my frogs so that the iron was just a hair off the near side of the mouth resulting in .100 and .125" gap from the blade to the front of the mouth. I didn't realize you could move it further forward. :rolleyes:

It's time for experimentation. I think if your iron is sharp and you are planing with the grain or diagonally with it, you'll find that the mouth opening isn't critical and leaving it a little wider than absolute minimum will help keep you planing and not fooling around with extracting jammed shavings.

Tighten the mouth and experiment with the size of the mouth and how close the chipbreaker is to the cutting edge when you find that you cannot plane without tearout with the mouth open.

There are a lot of references on the web that tell you different things about how the planes "should" be set (a lot of them have you believe you need to have the mouth razor tight to smooth and wide open to do fast removal). While it's good to know what those different sources may tell you to do to solve certain problems, your personal experience in finding what doesn't work is a better guide to just how much you need to hassle with different settings.

As a rule of thumb in general (that you can ignore if you're having good experience with the plane as is), though, the 4 should be set tighter than the 5.

Different plane settings are like problem solving, if you don't have the problem, you don't need to solve it. If you do, you can generally reduce tearout by five things (aside from making sure you're planing the direction you should be in the wood):
1) making sure the iron is as sharp as possible
2) decreasing the shaving thickness
3) tightening the mouth as tight as possible for the chip thickness
4) tuning the chipbreaker fit and moving it as close to the cutting edge as possible
5) adding a microbevel to the back of the iron to increase the effective pitch

Different people have different ideas about which of the above you should do - all of them work.

[Jim Koepke]

Some commentary removed for brevity

Different plane settings are like problem solving, if you don't have the problem, you don't need to solve it. If you do, you can generally reduce tearout by five things (aside from making sure you're planing the direction you should be in the wood):

[1-3 snipped]

4) tuning the chipbreaker fit and moving it as close to the cutting edge as possible
5) adding a microbevel to the back of the iron to increase the effective pitch

Different people have different ideas about which of the above you should do - all of them work.


With a finely tuned chip breaker, a rub down with paste wax can also help. The fit is important. Any small gap or crevice is a catch point for small chips created when planing and they become obstacles for any subsequent shavings.

Use of a microbevel may require the chip breaker to be set back. The chip breaker needs to "seal" against the blade. If the microbevel reaches into the area of chip breaker seating, your shavings will again start to clog.

As David said, "It is time for experimentation."

All of our philosophies and reasoning will not help you anywhere near as much as your taking time to "experiment" to find out how it all works for you.

You may find the validity of my "more than one plane" solution or you may find a particular mouth setting that works for you. Then again, you may find there is a very good reason to pay a little more and acquire a plane of the Bedrock design.

What ever you find, I hope it is some enjoyable time spent in the shop.

jim

[David Weaver]

You never know, you might even decide at some point to start building your own infills!

[Chas Fuggetta]

I puttered around in the shop again last night. While I was able to get a couple good settings the iron depth adjustment was inconsistent again.

It's a bit frustrating to be on the final smoothing cuts and make a minor adjustment and then have the iron dig in a good .020". Of course that was the ONE time I didn't run my finger along the sole to see if the iron was set correctly. After each adjustment I made it a point to make sure the iron was forward all the way to prevent any major changes when all I want is a minor adjustment.

Also, I noticed there were times when I had to skew the iron to the right and other times I had to skew it to the left. That leads me to believe there is something seriously wrong with the mechanics of the plane. Could the lever cap moving right or left do that?

Guess I'll have to start over with the tuning again. Oh and aside from a few explosive expletives escaping from my potty mouth, I do find my time spent in the shop quite relaxing and enjoyable. :rolleyes: I actually enjoy troubleshooting as it's an excellent way to learn how a tool works and how to use it better.

Thanks for the suggestions gang.

[Jim Koepke]

I puttered around in the shop again last night. While I was able to get a couple good settings the iron depth adjustment was inconsistent again.

It's a bit frustrating to be on the final smoothing cuts and make a minor adjustment and then have the iron dig in a good .020". Of course that was the ONE time I didn't run my finger along the sole to see if the iron was set correctly. After each adjustment I made it a point to make sure the iron was forward all the way to prevent any major changes when all I want is a minor adjustment.

Also, I noticed there were times when I had to skew the iron to the right and other times I had to skew it to the left. That leads me to believe there is something seriously wrong with the mechanics of the plane. Could the lever cap moving right or left do that?

Guess I'll have to start over with the tuning again. Oh and aside from a few explosive expletives escaping from my potty mouth, I do find my time spent in the shop quite relaxing and enjoyable. :rolleyes: I actually enjoy troubleshooting as it's an excellent way to learn how a tool works and how to use it better.

Thanks for the suggestions gang.

By skewing the iron to the left or right do you mean having to reset the lateral adjustment?

If the iron is moving while you are planing then you may need to tighten the lever cap screw.

There are a lot of other causes at play, but the cap screw is a good starting point.

jim

[rob cosman]

Hi Chas, if your the type that is better off seeing it done rather than reading about it, I just released a new dvd that is being offered at Woodcraft for half price ($16.25). The Great Hand Plane Revival, it covers the plane from start to finish, guiding you thru tuning the parts, sharpening the blade and adjusting for best performance. There are some product suggestions in the dvd but you dont have to take them to benefit from what is being taught. there is also a downloadable pdf of 8 pages you can take to the shop as a memory jogger. good luck
Rob Cosman

[Chas Fuggetta]

Hi Chas, if your the type that is better off seeing it done rather than reading about it, I just released a new dvd that is being offered at Woodcraft for half price ($16.25). The Great Hand Plane Revival, it covers the plane from start to finish, guiding you thru tuning the parts, sharpening the blade and adjusting for best performance. There are some product suggestions in the dvd but you dont have to take them to benefit from what is being taught. there is also a downloadable pdf of 8 pages you can take to the shop as a memory jogger. good luck
Rob Cosman

Oh, I just checked our local Woodcraft this past weekend for a hand plane dvd. I'll check again. Thanks Rob!

[David Keller NC]

Chas - You asked in the original post - what's a typical measurement for open/closed mouths on planes for coarse/fine shavings. Here are some starter suggestions. Note that these will have to be fine-tuned for what you want to do and the wood you're using, among other things:

For coarse, hog-the-wood-off at maximum velocity (such as when doing the initial flattening of a wide board with a fore plane), I use a mouth opening that's approximately 1/8". On my wooden foreplane, the mouth opening's about 1/4". Note that these two openings are used with an iron that's ground/honed to a 10" radius curve.

For general, all-around planing for taking out a high spot, jointing an edge, or other purposes in straight-grained wood, I use a mouth opening on a metal plane that's about 20 thousadnths of an inch (1/8" is 125 thousandths by comparison).

For smoothing all woods, and for jointing highly figured edges, I use a mouth opening on a Stanley/Bailey type plane of approximately 8 thousandths of an inch.

For smoothing highly figured woods, I use an infill plane with a 2-3 thousandths of an inch mouth opening.

One thing to note about adjusting the mouth on a Stanley antique - it can be frustrating. One of the reasons folks spend money on L-N/Lee Valley planes is to avoid this very problem, which is usually caused by slop in the fit of the frog to the bed and lash in the screw threads. This slop causes the mouth opening to change significantly between the frog being loose enough to adjust and tightened down. However, it's still very possible to get a 5 thousandths mouth opening on a Stanley/Bailey plane. My suggestions are to a) go slowly b) only adjust the frog (and the mouth opening when the screws on the frog are very slightly loose - not really loose like you'd want to do to remove the frog, c) when cinching the frog fixing screws down, place your hand on the top surface of the frog and apply a gentle backwards pressure - that seems to help hold the adjustment you've just made.

[Dave Matson]

rexmill has a good article on tuning handplanes that may help you.

https://home.comcast.net/~stanleyplanes/planes101/tuneup/tuneup.htm

It includes a good article by David Charlesworth with some very descriptive pictures.

[Chas Fuggetta]

By skewing the iron to the left or right do you mean having to reset the lateral adjustment?

If the iron is moving while you are planing then you may need to tighten the lever cap screw.

There are a lot of other causes at play, but the cap screw is a good starting point.

jim

No movement while planing, just more movement than I'd like to see when making an adjustment. You'd think after all these years a better design would have come out that would eliminate unnecessary movement of the iron/cap when making an adjustment. I've never had the pleasure of using a LN, perhaps their mfg. process reduces it. I'm seriously considering buying a LN or Veritas #5. I really enjoy using a well made tool and from what I've heard they are both quite nice.

David, those are some tight mouth openings and considerably smaller than what I have now. IIRC, I'm at about .030" on my #5. I'll adjust it down and check the chip breaker to ensure it's tight fitting against the iron.

[Jim Koepke]

No movement while planing, just more movement than I'd like to see when making an adjustment. You'd think after all these years a better design would have come out that would eliminate unnecessary movement of the iron/cap when making an adjustment. I've never had the pleasure of using a LN, perhaps their mfg. process reduces it. I'm seriously considering buying a LN or Veritas #5. I really enjoy using a well made tool and from what I've heard they are both quite nice.

David, those are some tight mouth openings and considerably smaller than what I have now. IIRC, I'm at about .030" on my #5. I'll adjust it down and check the chip breaker to ensure it's tight fitting against the iron.

This is a bit puzzling. It may be of help to know the type of your planes or to see some pictures with arrows pointing to what is moving. It would also be of help to know what you have read and done as far as plane fettling.

I can think of a half dozen things that could be causing problems. The lever cap should be loose enough that adjustments can be made when it is locked down but not loose enough that planing wood will change the lateral adjustment. The chip breaker screw has to be as tight as you can get it with a screw driver big enough to fit into the chip breaker screw.

On older Stanley planes (including Bedrocks) the lever cap can move when the blade is retracted. This was supposedly cured by the kidney shape cut out on the lever cap.

The Norris style adjuster does do away with some of the movement incurred due to backlash. One of the disadvantages to the Norris adjustment used on expensive planes and many block planes is that the lever cap has to be loosened to make an adjustment and then retightened. The Bailey style adjuster allows one to adjust "on the fly" so to speak, without having to loosen the lever cap.

My method to adjust a plane is to start with a piece of scrap in a vise. With the plane blade retracted set the toe of the plane on the wood and slowly push the plane on the wood and at the same time slowly turn the depth adjuster until a shaving first begins to appear. Then I try both sides of the plane to adjust the lateral if needed.

For me it is hard to use the "sight down the sole" method described in the Lie-Nielsen videos. Age and bifocals can do that to a person.

Most of my planes will keep the lateral adjuster fairly near center. That is all in having the frog set and the blade sharpened square. The sides on Stanley blades are not always parallel. This could be something to consider when a blade is having lateral adjustment issues. The slot down the center can also be out of true.

For finicky lateral adjustment, it may be easier to pinch the lever and one side of the blade with the other hand's fingers on both sides of the blade feeling for movement. Watch and feel and just pinch until there is slight movement. Repeat as needed for the side needed.

Without being a bit more specific of what you are trying to accomplish and what is or is not happening, I am afraid without meeting in person there is not much else help to offer. It is like shooting in the dark at an unknown target.

Do you have any occasion to travel to Portland, OR?

jim