Drying rough turned bowls quickly.

[Dave Smith]

I posted this on Woodcentral and expect a lot of discussion there. I will try to answer your questions here also.

Fred Holder was kind enough to publish an article I wrote about drying bowls in More Woodturning. I am not sure where you can obtain a copy of the November issue or if Fred has extra copies available for purchase. The process is something I have worked on for many years and it has proven very effective.

In the interest of turners who would like to turn bowls from green wood and give them for gifts this coming Christmas I am posting the process in a nutshell. Please let me know your results, good or bad, so I can write a followup article about the general use of the process.
************************************************** ***********************
ALCOHOL SOAKING GREEN BOWL BLANKS IN A NUT SHELL.

Turn the bowl to a thickness of ½"for small bowls(< 6 inches). Larger bowls may need to be thicker to allow for distortion.

Place the bowl in a container of denatured alcohol.

Let soak for 2 or more hours.

Remove the bowl and place it on a rack upside down for 1 hour to let the surface dry.

Wrap the bowl in heavy paper such as a grocery sack. On a bowl simply gather the paper around the rim and secure with a couple turns of masking tape. On a closed form the paper can be tucked into the opening and held in place with masking tape across the opening. The opening must be open to allow air circulation.

Place the bowl upside down on a rack so air can circulate into the opening.

Record the weight and date on the bottom of the paper. When the weight stops decreasing it is ready to finish turn.
************************************************** **************************
Small bowls will stop losing weight in one week or less. Large bowls will take about two weeks. Hollow forms very in drying time due to the small opening which inhibits air exchange. It is not necessary to record the weight every day but initially you may want to check the progress to satisfy your curiosity. I keep my shop heated and dehumidified year round so my drying time may very from what you may experience.

Nearly every turning I have posted on this forum has been dried using this process. There have been some failures but they have been rare exceptions. So don’t use a priceless irreplaceable piece of wood to test this drying protocol.

I owe a big think you to the many people who helped me test the alcohol drying process during the past year and those who encouraged this project. They validated my findings, edited text and gave me the confidence to publish the results. In no particular order these people are David Propst, Bill Grumbine, Dominic Grecco, Jennifer Shirley, Mark Kauder, Larry Hancock, Scott Greaves, Sean Troy, Barb Siddiqui, Mike Schwing and Ellis Walentine.

Good luck.

Dave Smith

With a shop full of dry bowls in Longview, WA.

[Barbara Gill]

Dave, thanks for posting this. I will give it a try.

[Andy London]

Thanks, what is denatured alcohol, is that the same stuff you buy at a drug store? If not, where would one find it (generic type store as I live in Canada)?

Thanks
Andy

[Jason Roehl]

Thanks, what is denatured alcohol, is that the same stuff you buy at a drug store? If not, where would one find it (generic type store as I live in Canada)?

Thanks
Andy

Andy, around here, denatured alcohol is found at the Home Depot/Lowe's/Menard's-type stores. It is ethanol with a small percentage of methanol added (typically 3%) to make it poisonous so that it doesn't get taxed by the federal government and can be sold much cheaper. A gallon of it here costs roughly $8. Everclear(tm) (95% pure ethanol, 5% water) is sold as liquor, and is about $20 for 1.75L(~1/2 gallon) in comparison.

I use it with a charcoal chimney to light my grill--no petroleum distillate aftertaste, and all the methanol burns off so it's not poisonous.

[Andy London]

Thanks Jason, I have to go to HD this evening and will look for some.

Does this mean you don't have to seal the wood? Doesn't it split? I am very interested in this as Microwave drying is not working out so good, we are sold out of turnings buy have tons of green woods, mainly figured and burls....really desperate to fins a way to dry this stuff fast and am willing to try anything.

Rather than using a scale, may I assume I can use my moisture meter?

Thanks Again
Andy

[Dave Smith]

Hi Andy,

Dominic uses a moisture meter to determine when a bowl is dry. He reports that bowls have dried down to 6% in two weeks of drying in his house. Remember that dry is equilibrium with the surroundings. I used weight because it was easy and I don't have a moisture meter. Soak the bowls and wrap the outside with paper. Just make sure air can circulate around the uncovered inside. They should be dry within two weeks.

Dave Smith

Back to the football game in Longview, WA.

[Andy London]

Dave,

I have one further concern/question, since methanol is poision and we are soaking the wood in it, does that mean for example that the turned product would no longer be food safe?

Thanks Again!!

Andy

[John Shuk]

Will isopropyl alchohol work if it is 99% pure? I can get that by the gallon for free.

[Jim Becker]

I have one further concern/question, since methanol is poision and we are soaking the wood in it, does that mean for example that the turned product would no longer be food safe?
No, it flashes off. The "formula" it to prevent folks from drinking it as grain alcohol which is exactly what it is (200 proof) until the additive and a spot of water are added.

[Dave Smith]

Hi John,

I tried isopropyl but it stunk up my shop too much. I reasoned that the larger molecules would evaporate slower and put less stress on the bowl while drying. Normally isopropyl is available at 70% concentration which is optimal for germ killing. I think it will work. Free is a very good price. The few pieces I tried with isopropyl didn't dry any different than using ethanol. I didn't like the smell and I think it was more expensive.

Good luck.

Dave Smith

Don't like my shop smelling like the hospital emergency room in Longview, WA.

[Dave Smith]

Hi John,

Denatured alcohol is 90% ethanol and about 10% methanol to make it unfit to drink. The alcohol will evaporate off. Most people use denatured alcohol for cutting shellac and dried shellac is food safe.

Dave Smith

Keeping my shop well ventilated in Longview, WA.

[Andy London]

I'm clueless on this alchol stuff so please near with me. I went to the big box nd the only thing they have by the gallon is Menthol Hydrate, is that what I need..?

[George Tokarev]

I'm clueless on this alchol stuff so please near with me. I went to the big box nd the only thing they have by the gallon is Menthol Hydrate, is that what I need..?
Three peoples divided by a common language. Denatured alcohol in the US, methylated spirits in the UK, and methyl hydrate in Canada? Look at the ingredients list on the can. You want a high percentage of ethyl alcohol (ethanol) and a modest percentage of methyl alcohol (methanol). The term methyl hydrate suggests a watered-down methanol, which is not what you want, unless you're interested in discovering the meaning of the term "blind drunk." Methanol's more intoxicating and more poisonous than ethanol, which is why it's added to the latter in the US to avoid excise taxes. They're close enough in boiling point to make vodka-production difficult.

You might also want to look at the following before following this or the LDD bandwagon. http://www.hi.is/~joner/eaps/wh_haloo.htm

With the normal bowl orientation and a taper to the bottom, there is probably no point more than a half inch from open air through end grain on a 1" thick bowl. If a board will dry, by the old rule of thumb, one inch in one year, and the end grain loses moisture at a bit more than ten times the rate of face grain ... well you do the math.

Alcohol may help evaporate the unbound water, but it's not ionic enough to strip the bound water adsorbed to the fibers, so I'd spin up my blank to fling as much unbound as possible, set it in open air, and let it dry. Even in the maritimes, wood is going to dry more rapidly in heated areas, so what you do at 1/2" thick will certainly be turnable in a month. At 1/4 inch warp and go thickness, it's a week to unblushing lacquer.

[Dave Smith]

Hi George,

I am not sure what your point is with the halo reference. Also I could not follow the line of reasoning in the last two paragraphs. If you think the process I have suggested is a lot of hooey then just say so. I spent over three years perfecting the procedure and had several turners test it during the last year before publishing it.

Dave Smith

Not a math whiz but I can use a calculator in Longview, WA.

[Dave Smith]

Hi Andy,

The alcohol I use is about 90% ethanol denatured with methanol to make it unfit for consumption. Commonly used as fuel for alcohol stoves and a solvent for shellac. I guess I need to include the common names used for the same product in other countries to limit confusion in the future. Could you let me know what the product is called when you find it.

Dave Smith

Not a linguist in Longview, WA.

[George Tokarev]

Simple enough point. Bowls dry without trouble on their own. They dry more rapidly in lower humidity conditions whether or not they are soaked, soused, boiled or chanted over. So, is any intervention necessary? Probably not. I can cite the sources on evaporative loss rate from end grain if you doubt the physical evidence provided by end checks on sound logs or boards.

You acknowledge a warm and dehumidified environment, and failures, yet draw the conclusion that your alcohol soak makes them dry more rapidly and crack less. One can only ask, compared to what? Leaving a fresh piece in a warmed and dehumidified environment without controlling evaporation in a paper bag? I'd say the bag would definitely help with cracks, given your conditions. I place my spun-out turnings in open air until surface dry, then put them in a sheltered place to relax. If I want them right away, I increase the evaporative rate by placing them in an area of lower relative humidity. I am not heated/cooled or dehumidified, so they are at no time under the stress you would put them under without the paper. It is also a method followed many turners for years and years. I know I didn't originate it.

I'm sure you're satisfied with the results of your efforts. I'm satisfied with the similar results of my neglect. The reference to the halo effect was a reminder that we all must be aware of the natural desire to succeed which can color the results of our own experimentation. Absent any scientific reason why this would work any better because of evaporative loss versus centrifugal loss of unbound water, I'm inclined to pass it by. Same with dish detergent, freezing, and boiling/microwaving, which may have some merit, because we know steamed wood is more plastic.

[Andy London]

I went to three different box stores today and received pretty much the same story that our Methyl Hydrate is the same as wood alchol and is used a lot in the paint industry as a thinner, we used to use it on the farm to start tractors when it was really cold and it is also used in lamps of some sort. On the gallon jugs I looked at there were no Ingredients per say to tell me what the percentages are but I am going to assume we are talking about the same product as there isn't anything else other than rubbing alchol available in our stores.

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

Simple enough point. Bowls dry without trouble on their own. They dry more rapidly in lower humidity conditions whether or not they are soaked, soused, boiled or chanted over. So, is any intervention necessary? Probably not. I can cite the sources on evaporative loss rate from end grain if you doubt the physical evidence provided by end checks on sound logs or boards.

You acknowledge a warm and dehumidified environment, and failures, yet draw the conclusion that your alcohol soak makes them dry more rapidly and crack less. One can only ask, compared to what? Leaving a fresh piece in a warmed and dehumidified environment without controlling evaporation in a paper bag? I'd say the bag would definitely help with cracks, given your conditions. I place my spun-out turnings in open air until surface dry, then put them in a sheltered place to relax. If I want them right away, I increase the evaporative rate by placing them in an area of lower relative humidity. I am not heated/cooled or dehumidified, so they are at no time under the stress you would put them under without the paper. It is also a method followed many turners for years and years. I know I didn't originate it.

I'm sure you're satisfied with the results of your efforts. I'm satisfied with the similar results of my neglect. The reference to the halo effect was a reminder that we all must be aware of the natural desire to succeed which can color the results of our own experimentation. Absent any scientific reason why this would work any better because of evaporative loss versus centrifugal loss of unbound water, I'm inclined to pass it by. Same with dish detergent, freezing, and boiling/microwaving, which may have some merit, because we know steamed wood is more plastic.

Sure, Bowls dry on their own, but NOT without trouble as you state. I guess if you consider checks and cracks no trouble, you would be correct. I have tried all the popular drying methods, and while I am fairly new to this process Dave has perfected over the course of 3 years, the results I am seeing are FAR superior to anything I have tried so far. Some of the most recognized names in turning have been testing this process for over a year, and the results they have experienced have been the same as I have seen thus far. It's pretty simple George, if you don't believe this works, then don't use it. On the other hand, don't knock those that HAVE tried this method, for over a YEAR, turning MANY bowls from MANY species of wood with EXCELLENT results. No one said this was a scientific experiment, just a proven method. I'll tell ya what, you can be the one to contact the experienced turners that know this works and tell them about the Halo effect. I am sure they will be thrilled to hear from you!

[George Tokarev]

Well, Kevin, life's to short to worry about anecdotal "evidence" and endorsements. Just lost a two-hour battle to save one this morning, so I'll just store your method next to the others until I have reason to seek a solution for which I have no problem. When I start to have problems drying wood, alcohol will certainly take its place near the end of the queue after known good methods for treating troublesome woods - bagging and ventilating, controlling evaporative loss by occusives, and a couple other magic elixers.

"The plural of anecdote is not data." -Dean Edell

[George Tokarev]

If it's "wood alcohol" which is to say methanol, it's some truly nasty stuff. Can be easily absorbed through the skin and the mucosa. Can't see why they'd even leave it on the market in any concentration. Save chemical synthesis, there's not much it does better than its friendlier brother.
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/M2015.htm
http://www.veggiepower.org.uk/page202a.htm

I'd read some standard texts on methods of controlling moisture loss and try them before I'd play with any concentration above the 3-5% normally used to denature ethanol.

[Chris Padilla]

George,

I'm sure we need to be a bit more thick-skinned here but the tone of your emails is a bit disconcerting as I think you can probably tell from a couple of the responses. We like to keep things as friendly as possible around here...there are some great people on here as I've had the pleasure to meet a few of them including Kevin.

We're all for hearing about all sort of new methods of doing things but if you don't agree, that is cool, too...just don't put someone down. Dave appears to be pretty open about this method and if you find bad/poor results, I think he would like to hear about them.

In a nutshell (bad pun intended), look at my signature. Wood is a fickle medium and just when you think you've got a hold of it, it goes and cracks or twists on you for "no apparent reason."

Let's keep things friendly here.

:)

[George Tokarev]

George,

Let's keep things friendly here.

:)
Certainly. We are told about a magic elixer which works equally on all species of wood without regard to pore structure, density,tyloses, resin, heart or sapwood. We are apparently to believe there are no difference between woods and they way they behave. Morover, this process is so simple and so friendly that you can soak any wood of any thickness or dimension, apparently at any dilution which the infinite miscibility of alcohol and the unknown amount of water in the unspecified volume of wood might make, and not lose the effect.

Now, after application of this expensive elixer in this imprecise manner, you allow it to evaporate, it's magic done, and proceed to dry the wood by the second-oldest method known, controlling humidity in a paper bag. It was old when I took up turning fifteen and more years ago, and is still well used today where the Relative Humidity may be low enough to create a harmful gradient between the surface and the interior of the wood. Other variations on this theme include boxing, newsprint, burying in shavings, plastic bags and application of occlusive coverings. They all work, as does neglect in a high RH environment, and all work for the same reason, without, and apparently now with, the addition of alcohol.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplmisc/rpt1652.pdf Is a good read, especially the causes, nature, and prevention of end checks which can lead to structural failure and honeycombing.

Friendly question. Do you really think there's anything of value that we don't already know and practice here? If so, can you offer anything beyond testimonials and edorsement from "name" turners, which I am, as reminded, not?

Scientific data preferred. Meantime, I'm taking some birdseye down to the tavern for a couple of beers. :p

[Chris Padilla]

Friendly question. Do you really think there's anything of value that we don't already know and practice here? If so, can you offer anything beyond testimonials and edorsement from "name" turners, which I am, as reminded, not?
George,

If you are referring specifically to this "alcohol drying" treatment, I have no clue but that wasn't the point of my post as I am sure you know. I am not a turner in the least.

However, I guess I am not so close-minded as to think that I cannot learn things from other people. My only issue was the tone of your posts...that is all.

[Dominic Greco]

George,

If you are referring specifically to this "alcohol drying" treatment, I have no clue but that wasn't the point of my post as I am sure you know. I am not a turner in the least.

However, I guess I am not so close-minded as to think that I cannot learn things from other people. My only issue was the tone of your posts...that is all.

Chris,
Well said, my friend! I came in late on this thread and was some what taken aback by George's tone as well. I guess I'm one of those "known turners" he refers to.

George, we're a friendly bunch here and not used to such a negative tone in posts. You're free to disagree with the technique. Your also free to conduct your own tests of it and attempt arrive at your own conclusion. It's a free country. Or at least it was last time I checked. But saying that it is not worth the time without even trying it,...well that speaks of a very closed mind. Pity.

"Why do people who know the least, know it the loudest?"

[Bart Leetch]

Well George I've never used this method but I have communicated with several of the people mentioned in the original post & found them to be creditable people & I known Dave Smith personally.

When I run into people that are so closed minded I just shake my head & walk away.

[Rob Bourgeois]

It would be fairly easy to end Georges rant. Someone go and cut a log in half. Turn 2 rough bowls identically as possible. Treat one with the alcohol method and then treat the other with his preferred method boxing or paper wrapping. The first bowl to split loses or the first one dry wins. If I had a lathe working right now I would do this experiment right now to satisfy my own curiousity.

Dave I will try your method in the future, thanks for your time and work on this. Dont let a few people who want to be the center of attention stop you( or any of us) from developing new ideas to help out wood workers.

[Steve Clardy]

Dave. I appreciate you sharing your information here with everyone.
I'll store it back and try it someday. I am always on the lookout for new and improved, helpful ideas.
Steve:)

[Andy London]

It would be fairly easy to end Georges rant. Someone go and cut a log in half. Turn 2 rough bowls identically as possible. Treat one with the alcohol method and then treat the other with his preferred method boxing or paper wrapping. The first bowl to split loses or the first one dry wins. If I had a lathe working right now I would do this experiment right now to satisfy my own curiousity.

And that is what I am doing. I am always looking for new ideas or trying something that is off the wall because quite often it will stick. I appreciate people like Dave who dream this stuff up.

From the same logs of Cherry (real test for the idea) Pear, Apple, Curly Maple, Yellow Birch and an Elm Burl, I made two blanks of each, three of the Cherry and Apple as there is two sealers I want to compare. I rough turned them all the same and they are all in the same room drying. I'll take notes each week and for those interested perhaps place some pictures on my website as to the results per specie. I am also logging the room temps and humidity, just for reference.

Andy

[Dave Smith]

Hi Andy,

I never kept track of the temp and humidity. I wanted a process that didn't require special conditions. The intent was for minimal cost and no major equipment. I don't know how big your bowls. But in a week a small bowl soaked in alcohol will probably be dry. If you log the weight everyday you will be amazed how fast it drops. Thanks for doing a comparison test. Now we will know if the process works in Canada.

Dave Smith

Canadian friends are always welcome in Longview, WA.

[Dick Parr]

It worked fine for me. I rough turned 3 box elder bowls on the 5th, 6th and 7th of this month and soaked each over night and then wrapped them in a brown paper bag. I let each one dry for 9 days. I just got done finish turning the last one today and it was dry when I turned it. Before I took each rough bowl off the chuck I marked the jaw numbers on the blank. When I chucked them back up to finish they had not move any that I could tell when I matched them back up. I have them sitting on a the rack until the finish is completely dry, about 3 days.

The process sounded like it would work, so I tried it before I started saying anything about it. Now I can say, Thank You Dave, for a handy process that I will continue to use. :D

[Steve Inniss]

And that is what I am doing. I am always looking for new ideas or trying something that is off the wall because quite often it will stick. I appreciate people like Dave who dream this stuff up.

From the same logs of Cherry (real test for the idea) Pear, Apple, Curly Maple, Yellow Birch and an Elm Burl, I made two blanks of each, three of the Cherry and Apple as there is two sealers I want to compare. I rough turned them all the same and they are all in the same room drying. I'll take notes each week and for those interested perhaps place some pictures on my website as to the results per specie. I am also logging the room temps and humidity, just for reference.

Andy

Andy,
Thanks. It'll be interesting to see. Not that I'm trying to give anyone else a make work project but... It would be good to see a rough turned bowl, marked with a line "cutting" it in half (rim, down to foot, up to rim on other side) soaked (one half in denatured alcohol - the other not), bagged for 9 days or so, then finish turned. Theoretically, the soaked half will not check or move and the unsoaked one will. I'm guessing there will be some wicking of the alcohol, but it will be interesting to see if there is a clear difference on the same bowl.

I'm curious though, did you end up using Methyl Hydrate? The following link would indicate that it is not 97% ethanol, 3% methanol as others have suggested as the makeup of denatured alcohol:
http://www.murraychemical.com/msds/METHONOL.doc

-Steve

[George Tokarev]

Hi Andy,

I never kept track of the temp and humidity. I wanted a process that didn't require special conditions. The intent was for minimal cost and no major equipment. I don't know how big your bowls. But in a week a small bowl soaked in alcohol will probably be dry. If you log the weight everyday you will be amazed how fast it drops. Thanks for doing a comparison test. Now we will know if the process works in Canada.


Never monitored temperature and humidity? The combination of temperature and absolute humidity, Relative Humidity, is the most important element in the entire process. Wood gains or loses moisture by adsorbing or evaporating moisture to the air in an entirely predictable manner based on relative humidity. Your "tests" failed to monitor this? This is all there is to drying wood!

Please learn what wood is, does, and how it is made to do it before you proceed and involve others hoping for a magic feather to allow them to fly. The bagging method is a tried and true one, though not normally required unless the RH is extremely low. It's based on maintaining a low moisture gradient from center to surface to minimize drying stress and damage. If not bagged, the gradient will be higher, and the piece dry more rapidly, possibly suffering drying stress and damage. ALL drying methods are merely variations of this method, balancing speed against risk of damage. Your method succeeds because you're doing what turners have done since they began turning green wood - controlling the rate of moisture loss.

You appear to be suffering from false logic in your conclusions. If X produces success on its own, and you do A and X , why would you assume A makes a difference? Is alcohol a chemical with which wood is unfamiliar? Not at all. You have probably heard methyl alcohol, methanol, referred to a "wood alcohol," and for a reason. It is present in the tree all the time, used in synthesis of the cellulose, hemicellulose and lignins which are wood. It used to be produced from destructive distillation of wood, whence the name. Ethyl alcohol is often there too, caused, as always, by fermentation of sugars. The soft maple I've been roughing has a smell like a fine Burgundy, and a bit of a "bite" when tasted, having been felled early last year and the sugar fermenting in the log.

You jump on me and my gentle reminder to be cautious when drawing conclusions so far out of the main stream of data, then accuse me of being closed-minded. If my mind is closed, it is because it is full of precise information on the nature of wood and how it reaches EMC with its environment. This is derived from experimental data, is objectively verifiable, repeatable, and is easily available to you at http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/tmu/publications.htm

The publications on drying wood, stress in drying, and air drying are most interesting, and bear on your "experiment" directly. You now have to figure out whether you have done anything chemically or physically to alter this, or whether the difference is only mental.

[Jason Roehl]

George, read (or re-read) Rob Bourgeois' post. Would you not agree that this test procedure (bowls from two halves of the same log, with one of the two processes applied to each bowl, bagging or soaking in alcohol and wrapping) removes the temp/humidity variables because the two bowls would be next to each other on a shelf, subjected to whatever the room conditions are?

Many of the turners Dave used to do his test have been turning bowls for years and drying them by bagging them and letting them sit. I'm pretty sure some of these folks used to weigh their bowls to determine when they were dry enough to be finish turned. So if soaking them in alcohol drops the time on the shelf from 3-6 months to 1-2 weeks, that's pretty significant. Your posts seem to indicate that nothing can be done to make the bowls dry faster, and you talk extensively about how water acts in wood. However, this is talking about soaking a bowl in alcohol, which is miscible with water. Surely some of the water in the bowl would be replaced with alcohol during the soaking, then during the drying, the alcohol will speed the dry time because a blend of water and alcohol evaporates faster than water alone. This, I believe to be the essence of Dave's hypothesis. A good scientist who doubts this could work would duplicate the experiment, not say that it can't work based on current knowledge.

I'm reminded that a certain sailor was once told he couldn't sail around the world because everyone knew that the world was flat...

A question: is there a mainstream of data on bowls soaked in alcohol and then dried?

[Jim Ketron]

Dave I think you have a Great thing going Keep up the good work!!
I would like to thank you for posting your methods. I will give it a try when I get some blanks cut up.
Never mind what people (or someone) says. if it works it works:D
Im always looking for faster better methods for my time in the shop is limited as it is!
Jim

[Dave Smith]

I will attempt to stop by more often.

If anyone want any information on the alcohol drying procedure don't hesitate to email me. I welcome information about your first couple bowls completed using the alcohol drying method. I plan to compile an article about the results of widespread usage of the process. Pictures would be most welcome. Please advise me if I may use your name and or pictures on my web site or in an article for publication. If I don't get overwhelmed with data I will make the information available in some form.

Things to include:
Type of wood: including, burl, crotch, etc.
Type of turning: bowl, closed form, hollow form, etc.
Approximate size:
Wall thickness:
Type of alcohol used: leave blank if denatured ethanol used.
Length of time soaked:
Length of time dried:
Finished thickness:
Type finish:
Overall outcome: modern art not on purpose, kindling wood, acceptable, etc.
Optional:
Relative moisture of blank: fresh very wet, some what wet, mostly dry
Deviated from procedure: Didn't wrap, waxed outside, put it in the chicken coop to dry, etc.

Dave Smith

Blessed with a lot of internet friends in Longview, WA.

[Andy London]

Steve, I am trying Methyl Hydrate for the first run, it is cheap here and easy to get, I can buy denatured but it's going to be expensive unless I or one of my many buddies that I have told about this process can find us a supply, which I believe they will. But you are correct, it is not the same accoriding to a couple of friends that are in the chemical research area of a local university....I've also asked them for there thoughts as to why this works.

I have so much wood in the species I mentioned that even if this does not work at all, it will have been worth the experiment, as I mentioned things off the wall quite often stick. I think based on the feedback that it does work as I know some of the turners that have tried it.

It will take some time to post the results, this is a very busy time of the year for the shop, pounding the hours in day and night. I will compile the information in an Excel Spreadsheet and post it for consideration. Our temps here are pretty low at the moment, well below freezing and I am seeing how this process works in the cold as the air, when cold, is very dry and good drying weather, at least in my experience.

There seems to be some confusion coming from the negative side, this process is using part of an older proven process (paperbag) and adding a new process being the alchol, to cut the drying time substantially....why anyone would not be willing to at least give it a try is beyond me, all there is to loose is perhaps $20.00 and a bowl blank at the most.

[Aaron Koehl]

Then perhaps an analysis comparing the response variables of the bowl drying methods is in order. We should measure:
1. the drying time (total time involved)
2. the material costs (cost of any solvents used, etc)
3. the labor time involved (total hands-on time)
4. level of checking and cracking

I'm sure the result would be interesting to see. Obviously, the fourth measure is the most difficult to gauge objectively, however a few independent ratings (1 to 10) of a dried bowl would provide a valid measure. Two and three are straight forward, and the first one can be measured a couple of different ways: for example, a scale or other measuring device.

Ultimately, we can't argue with what works--everyone has different methods for accomplishing an end result. Hats off to Dave for sharing his method with us! I appreciate the contribution, as do many others. The dissenting opinions are valuable as well, so long as they are tactfully engaged. A true comparison of methods would require a formal approach, along the lines of what I started this post with. However, informal inspection is usually accurate when conducted by professionals, and by accurate I mean that professional observations usually coincide with the formal test results.

[Kurt Aebi]

I usually won't contribute to a thread that is this heated, but here goes!

This is a forum that has been graciously opened up for us to Share Ideas, not Squash Ideas. I realize that with the written word, it is difficult if not impossible to capture the inflection, so we must write clearly and concisely so as not to cause a rift if possible. Georges comments were probably intended for us to not blindly follow Dave and that was good advice. He may have (and did - in my opinion) carry his opinion to an extreme without even giving a shread of merit to the idea itself. This probably was taken (me included) to mean that George has a "Closed" mind, unwilling to try something new. I have encountered more than a few "George's" on a taxidermy forum that I frequent.. I must admit, if I see their name on a post, I just skip it now regardless of the content - I just don't need to see that kind of narrow-mindedness. I really hope this forum doesn't go that route, I don't think our moderators (US) and our administrators (Aaron, Keith, Ken, etc) will let that happen.

All Dave was trying to do was give people an alternative method to try and it seems to me that he followed the basic rules of any R & D project before posting his findings and there is a lot of turning experience that I am sure have notified him to the merits and misgivings of this method before he posted this thread (3 years of taking data and experimenting should show that).

I wish to thank Dave for this thread and all the time and effort his field testers have put into trying and reporting on this method - one well worth trying - in my opinion.

We should also thank George for his efforts in trying to help us Not be Blind Following Sheep (I think that was what he was trying to convey - not as eloquent or uncontroversial as we really would like to see around here), but I think posted with good intent, though presented in a rather confrontational kind of way that seemed innapropriate to this viewer. He should have just given us his thoughts that this could be one of those "Magical Elixers" that would lead us to our ruin and left it at that. Most of us would have said "Good Enough" his opinion is noted.

I am not trying to Bash George, even if it sounds as such, just trying to thank him for his opinion and to give him aome advice as to voicing his opinion without the controversy that is all. Nobody's opinion is wasted breath, or we would never learn or try anything new. Remember, the World (woodworking world as well! :eek: ) was once thought to be flat!

[George Tokarev]

Then perhaps an analysis comparing the response variables of the bowl drying methods is in order. We should measure:
1. the drying time (total time involved)
2. the material costs (cost of any solvents used, etc)
3. the labor time involved (total hands-on time)
4. level of checking and cracking

I'm sure the result would be interesting to see. Obviously, the fourth measure is the most difficult to gauge objectively, however a few independent ratings (1 to 10) of a dried bowl would provide a valid measure. Two and three are straight forward, and the first one can be measured a couple of different ways: for example, a scale or other measuring device.


My wife, bless that piece of anthracite residing within her left chest, is fond of answering the question "how's George" with "compared to what?"

That's the rub. There is no objective data valid for comparison offered by the proponents, which means nothing was studied, merely asserted. This is a shame, of course, because it would be so easy to do an objective study. Consider the method used to evaluate drugs. They are compared to nothing and to a placebo. Unfortunately, efficacy is compared to nothing, when it should be compared to the placebo in more than statistical significance, but that's another lawsuit. Double blind would be carrying it too far.

I offered, in another thread, an example of what happens from doing nothing. The placebo would be a non-treated blank bagged or wrapped, stored under the same conditions as the treated and nothing blank. This would be a simple study, designed to demonstrate efficacy. As long as the same conditions are followed, it would be valid for comparative purposes. To be accurate for interpretive purposes, there would have to be a bit more effort. Other data would have to be collected, for instance strength of solution (independent variable) versus drying rate, and, throughout, the two controls.

It's possible that soaking might prove effective in only one aspect, as in occlusive sealing, which gives great protection against drying degrade, though it does greatly increase time to EMC. It might be that it works on diffuse-porous woods but not on ring-porous, or accelerates the time to the FSP only, or protects against drying degrade only under extremely low conditions of RH. These interpretive results would be a natural benefit if there was real data collected. Or it might, as I suspect, turn out that it is a way of spending quality time with the wood, and nothing more. I have no objective basis to assume anything else.

When you hear the sound of hoofs, it might be a zebra, but unless you're in Africa, the smart money goes with horses.

[Fred LeBail]

Steve, I am trying Methyl Hydrate for the first run, it is cheap here and easy to get, I can buy denatured but it's going to be expensive unless I or one of my many buddies that I have told about this process can find us a supply, which I believe they will. But you are correct, it is not the same accoriding to a couple of friends that are in the chemical research area of a local university....I've also asked them for there thoughts as to why this works.

I have so much wood in the species I mentioned that even if this does not work at all, it will have been worth the experiment, as I mentioned things off the wall quite often stick. I think based on the feedback that it does work as I know some of the turners that have tried it.

It will take some time to post the results, this is a very busy time of the year for the shop, pounding the hours in day and night. I will compile the information in an Excel Spreadsheet and post it for consideration. Our temps here are pretty low at the moment, well below freezing and I am seeing how this process works in the cold as the air, when cold, is very dry and good drying weather, at least in my experience.

There seems to be some confusion coming from the negative side, this process is using part of an older proven process (paperbag) and adding a new process being the alchol, to cut the drying time substantially....why anyone would not be willing to at least give it a try is beyond me, all there is to loose is perhaps $20.00 and a bowl blank at the most.


Andy, I too would like to know how you make out using the Methyl Hydrate as I have been looking and that is all that is readily available.

I live on the Miramichi in N.B. . If you go to Perth-Andover through Rt 108 you pass my place.
Fred

[Fred Chan]

Dave, thanks for posting your process for drying.:) The best purpose of a forum is to share new discoveries and ideas with fellow woodworkers. How many turners would have thought of using ca if they didn't read about it on a forum first? It is unfair to disqualify any new idea as having no merit without testing first.:mad: I hope you keep the forum updated with your reseach.:) :) Andy, I look forward to seeing your results with methyl hydrate. Does the stuff have a strong smell? Somebody must know what denatured alcohol is called or what it's equivalent is in Canada.

[Philip Duffy]

After reading all the commentarys I find it interesting that the objective of reaching stabization seems to be a function of so many factors that we never consider. Just yesterday, in a mini-test of the drying process, I turned a holiday ornament og holly (a notorious wood for cracking), hollowed it to 1/8th, and dunked it for two hours in the Denatured alcholol. After drying for 8 hours it no it weighted 65 grams and 8 hours later it weighed 65 grams. I think that is all I need to know. Ready for hanging on the tree!