Art pieces, part 2, the inevitable can of worms

[Curt Fuller]

I'm almost certainly opening a can of worms here but this is a question that comes up occasionally on woodturning forums, usually starting a huge discussion but never really coming to any consensus. What is the difference between art and craft?

I didn't want to hijack this thread, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=137733 but it is essentially asking that question. In the process of learning to be a better turner, how often have you studied the art side of it. Not the craft, not the use of the tools or sharpening or finishing, but the actual art of making something beautiful? I think it might be the answer to why some work brings in the big bucks.

[Mike Minto]

I'm not a big fan of labels, but they are hard to avoid. Art and Craft, if one must give it a name, always overlap, IMO. It takes technical skill to actually make something, not just 'let it happen' (although there is that); and if something is well made to fit it's purpose, it can't help but be art (again, IMO). That's a short narrative on how I feel about the subject. Tao Te Ching...Jeet Kun Do...ya know?

[John Keeton]

Curt, I still have a lot to learn about tool technique, but I find the "art" side of turning far more interesting and challenging. I have looked at hundreds of turnings, studying the nuances, trying to get a feel for what most "artists" feel is appealing. Much of it appeals to me, too. But, even the pieces that do not offer something in the way of inspiration for me.

When I swore I would never be interested in turning bowls, I think it was that I couldn't understand turning bowl after bowl - and, honestly, I still can't. I need variety - at least at this point. I do find myself attracted to certain styles of work, and wanting to emulate those styles.

So, to your question - "how often have you studied the art side of it" - daily! Just got through looking at probably 200 turnings, saving copies of some pics in my folders.

Let me add, too, that I think one can be a good craftsman, and certainly not an artist. But, an artist, with a vision, will figure out the craft, i.e., how to accomplish the objective.

[Robert Snowden]

I think i fit in there some where making turned firewood.

[alex carey]

Much like Keeton I also have a file where I have saved 652(just checked) pictures of shapes people have created. Many of them from this site. Since I don't have all the time in the world I try and learn from looking at these pictures what appeals to me and what doesn't.

Now onto your question. I think everyone will have their own definition of art and craft thus its subjective thus there is no right answer.

[charlie knighton]

well...start with can of worms and what form and finish takes that
brown worm into undescribeable :D

[David DeCristoforo]

It's art if you can get over five grand for it?

[Richard Madison]

Just a matter of opinion Curt. And most people have some (opinions, that is).

[David E Keller]

It's an interesting but rhetorical question I think.

I think of myself as a craftsman I suppose. I enjoy the process more than the finished piece in most instances(what does that say about my finished turnings?). I enjoy looking at beautiful forms and I occasional turn something I think is beautiful, but for me, it's more about enjoying the process.

[Curt Fuller]

It's an interesting but rhetorical question I think.


That's pretty much the point I'm trying to make. There really is no answer, at least I don't think there is. I'm a copier. I collect pictures and ideas of things I like, things that grab my attention, and then I try to figure how they did it and make something similar. When I look at my turnings I can attribute something in every one of them to something I've seen somewhere else. But I think it would be interesting to understand more about form and design so that I could create my own original ideas. I've often wondered if that's something a person could be taught or if it's something that is more of a natural gift. Those that have the gift and make the most of it whether it's natural or taught seem to be the ones that also do the work that sells as art, sometimes for a lot of money.

[Reed Gray]

Anthony Yak on Woodnet forums said it best, "If it don't hold soup, it's art."

robo hippy

[Jeff Nicol]

Curt, It is sort of like the chicken and the egg, which came first? Well in a woodturners world what we do is a craft, talent, desire etc. So while we are working on the pieces we create we are crafting them into either a utility piece or a piece that is used for decoration. It matters not the beauty of the piece either to make it an art piece or a great fruit bowl. Some of the old bowls that were made a 100 years ago are now being called "FOLK ART" and command large prices.

So we are all crafters of wood and other materials, the buyer or reciever of the creation will decide if it is art or functional.

Maybe it should be said "Art is in the presentation to the eyes, and perception thereof "


Jeff

[Rich Aldrich]

Have you ever found yourself looking at art pieces to get ideas or at least get a feel for good form? Over the past weekend, we went to an art museum where they had old pottery and a few turned bowls with natural edges. I was studying the pieces to get a feel for the form.

[Scott Lux]

I can (I hope) appreciate artistry. There are several artists frequenting this site and I love looking at their works. I do try to remember the proportions/lines/feel of some of the pieces to improve my own.

But, I am a craftsman. Well, I hope to be a craftsman someday. I really enjoy the fact people use the things I've made. From a design perspective I've always favored function over form (I consider Duluth Trading Co. to be the apex of clothing).

My favorite thought on design, "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Thom Sturgill]

From Wikipedia: A craft is a skill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill), especially involving practical arts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arts). It may refer to a trade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade) or particular art.

Also: Fine art describes an art form (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_form) developed primarily for aesthetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetic) and/or concept rather than utility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility).

Without the modifier 'Fine' I think art and craft are nearly identical in meaning, and overlap. However, 'Fine Art', which wood turning is JUST starting to be recognized as, is a different animal entirely.

[Mark Hubl]

Art is like what a congressman said about pornography. "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

Or, as A. Yak says, "if it don't hold soup".

There are very finely crafted pieces that I personally would not consider calling true art. For me art involves vision, originality, uniqueness and way too much politics. Art evolves also, what was once original and fresh can become mainstream and loose some of the edgy "artness". This happens because of mass appeal and the adoption of ideas and techniques. Heck, art can even use the mainstream as the bulls eye. The original Bau Haus was built on the concept of art and craft as part of everyday life and imparting beauty into all things we create.

I have studied many many pieces and the techniques employed to produce them. One of the reasons I have been sucked into the vortex is how open and sharing the community of artists and craftsman are in woodturning.

I, like Curt, am a copier for now. And like John, I like to try all sorts of different things. That is another reason turning is addictive and fun for me. For now I am trying to improve my skills, understand the techniques that work best for me and learn what I can about the wood itself. Along the way I would hope to find a path that leads to a uniqueness that I can impart into the work.

I am a big fan of Maloof and love what he had to say about it, "I am not an artist, I am a woodworker."

[GLENN THOMAS]

To me, and this is just my opinion but, I think one difference between craft and art is the craft aspect can be taught or learned, the art aspect is in most cases is a natural talent.

Now with that being said I'm going to contradict my self. I have a 4yr degree from the University of North Florida in graphic design. Every assignment for every class had to be presented to the class and the instructor. After each presentation everyone in the class had an opportunity to offer a critique. There were a lot of students and everyone could learn the technical aspect but despite that some could produce really beautiful pieces and others were hopeless, in fact one of our instructors often told people they should change majors. We also had the opportunity to display some of our work in different galleries and exhibits that took place on campus. Out of all the students that consistently produced really nice work the ones that did really well overall and managed to land the jobs at studios everyone wanted were the ones that could stand before the classes or in a gallery with their piece and lay out the biggest and thickest load BS.

This may lead back to my original post and I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but when all things are considered equal I believe in many cases the difference boils down to the how well an artist or critic can give everyone a load of BULL about their work. I don't believe this to be true for all artist but I believe it's true for a lot of them. One artist that comes to mind is Jackson Pollock AKA Jack the Dripper. It doesn't take a lot of talent to drip paint all over a canvas, as far as I know that is the only thing that he ever did and he became considered a great artist by many people. Check out this link http://www.nga.gov/feature/pollock/artist1.shtm. I guarantee that no one could pass this stuff off as art unless they or a well known critic had a silver tongue. Just read the captions under the pictures. Whether you consider his work to be art or not is besides the point, If the average guy tried to pass this off as art it would have never been accepted and I will never believe otherwise.

When I made my original post I was wondering if anyone had ever considered the BS factor. Ill say once again I don't believe this to be true for all artist. I don't believe this to be true for the names that I mentioned in my original post either but they were just the first ones off the top of my head.

GT

[Roland Martin]

I read all the comments & replies to Glenn's thread, without input of my own. Things got a bit negative for a while and does'nt go well with me.
Curt, this question/subject is a real headbanger for me. I can't come up with a convincing opinion, and I've been bouncing this around in my head for days. I'm new to woodturning and old to woodworking. Woodworking is all I've done as my livelyhood, worked with many designers, other business owners, etc., etc. There are a couple of designers that I do work for that absolutely draw the best work out of me that I couldn't accomplish on my own. I firmly believe that design, and I mean "great design" comes from within one's mind & heart naturally and "cannot" be learned effectively. I consider myself a craftsman in woodworking but most likely could never design or create "true art" on my own. Like I said, convincing? probably not, but they are my thoughts:)(at the moment anyway)

[Frank Van Atta]

All artists are craftsmen, but not all craftsmen are artists.

To put it another way:

All artists must be craftsmen, but not all craftsmen can be artists.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I agree it's a tough question to answer.

What is art? It's subjective. What may be a beautiful piece of art to me could be considered junk by someone else.

I disagree with what someone else said that art is a natural talent. I think some people have natural talents that make them become an artist more quickly. But I think one can learn and improve their skills and eventually become an artist ...just as someone can practice and become a musician.

But....not all craftmen or women will be artists just as all musicians are soloists either.

With respect to that other thread....the reason a lot of "craft" items or "art" sell for more is due to notoriety of the craftsman/artist, the audience for the obect and timing. If you have a friend who owns a large famous galary in a major metropolitan area and this gallery serves the "rich and famous" and your friend wants to display your crafts.....You could become an artist much quicker than trying to sell the same thing in say....Lewiston, Idaho. You could be an exceptional craftsman/artist but because of a down economy not sell a thing.

[Roland Martin]

Well put, Frank & Ken. This is such a mind-boggling topic. I'm soooo confused!!!:eek::eek::confused::confused:

[Scott Lux]

All artists must be craftsmen, but not all craftsmen can be artists.

Frank, you nailed it. Even Pollack had to balance colors, whitespace, and pallet choices to create his work.

[Matt Owen]

Anthony Yak has it right. I think that if it's meant to be used, it's craft. If it's meant to look at, it's art. That's why I can call myself an artist. No matter how ugly the stuff I make is, as long as it can't be used for anything (and I have found my stuff to be pretty useless), it's art. :D

Matt

[Malcolm Tibbetts]

For what it's worth, on my business card, I refer to myself as a "Wood Artisan". Loosely defined as “Those who use wood as a common medium in a form of artistic expression". Works for me.

[Richard Coers]

I am also disappointed when I take an art class. I keep hearing "If it looks good......." from the professional. I have some engineering in my background and I want math. I've done a lot of reading about the golden mean, Fibonacci sequence, etc....That has helped a great deal. I also study pottery for inspiration. Both old and new work. My latest inspiration/challenge, is from an art trained guy in our turning club. He frustrates me with his lack of experience, but huge prices he gets from his work. So instead of getting real cranky about it, I challenge myself to do better. To really work on it! Then it's all attitude after that. I used to do an art show with flat work. Nice furniture in the booth. One year I did nothing but boxes from cutoffs, knots, etc...One of the active families in our art guild showed a lot of interest. The mother brought many people to my booth. I ended up winning best in craft and sold quite a few boxes. For a minute there, I felt like an artist. Someone else felt that first, it was easy for me to think that after the attention.