Dust Eliminator vs Oneida???

[Derek Arita]

So, I've read a lot about cylone dust collectors on this forum, but I'm kind of dense when it comes to tech-talk. What I really want to know is, which sucks air better, an Oneida 3 hp cyclone or the Dust Eliminator with 3hp, 14" impeller? I'm not sure what the cost of the Dust Eliminator is once it's all put together, but I know that the Oneida is around the $1500 mark. Cost aside, I just want to know which works better. My next question would be, could a non-tech type with no sheet metal experience, put together the Dust Eliminator? What do you think Bill...Terry?

[Jack Diemer]

I am a non-skilled type who is just about finished putting together the dust eliminator cyclone. I am bascially finished with the workmanship part of the cyclone. I am actually painting the cyclone tonight (trying to get a chrome colored finish, and hanging up the motor this weekend.

I want to premise that I was part of the initial group of test dumbies who had little instructions initially, and had to ask lots of questions as we went. Once I heard Terry was cutting metal, I basically begged him to be part of the trial. Now that the test group is wrapping up, Terry has put together very detailed instructions with lots of pictures that make things much easier. (hence the reason for the test group)

So here are my comments.

1st to answer your question about Terry's design vs. Oneida. Terry's design does a lot of things better than the Oneida.
1. It has a rectangular inlet that goes all the way into the cyclone allowing the air to go straight in with little resistance. (better than a neutral vane)
2. This inlet is point in a downward angle which allows the air to not collide with it self.
3. The cone is much longer than the Oneida which allows for better separation, keeping your filters much cleaner.
4. The design incorporates a rubber landing pad with helps keeps the cylcone from rusting where the particles hit the walls. (water gets forced out of the wood when it hits the side)

Now my comments on assembly.
1. Assembly was tedious, and the soldering was very time consuming (since I hadn't soldered in 15 years). My friend and I spent about 5 full 7 hour days working putting two of these together, if I did it again, I think I could do it in 3 days, soldering, and 2 days using the caulk and rivets instead of solder.
2. For a long time Terry and Bill were trying to figure out how to optimize the air ramp, come to find out, the inlet design was so good that the air ramp actually reduced the performance, so they recommend that you don't put it in anymore, this simplifies the job enormously.
3. Now that the cyclone is done, I am so happy I took the time to do it, as much hard work as it was, I am so pleased I did it.

Now my recommendations if you do it yourself
1. Have lots of patience rolling the metal. I was impatient, and tried to force things. The more time you take, the rounder things are and the better everything fits, and the less time it takes in the end.
2. Follow the directions like a recipe, they have everything pretty much laid out perfectly in order.
3. Get at least a 2hp motor, prefereable 3. (I am converting my Jet-1200 2hp)
4. Find a woodworking friend and work together on the project. It helps to have an extra hand from time to time.

Good luck if you go dusteliminator. You will save a ton of money and should have a superior performing product.

[Kevin Herber]

I would like to see one of the Dust Eliminators. I did a search on Google and did not get the dust collector. Can you point me to a web site?

Thanks -- Kevin

[Jack Diemer]

http://www.dusteliminator.com/

Here are some early bird pictures of the work in progress. There is only one coat of paint, thats why it looks so spotty.

http://home.kc.rr.com/jdiemer/IM000153.JPG
http://home.kc.rr.com/jdiemer/IM000154.JPG
http://home.kc.rr.com/jdiemer/IM000155.JPG

By the way, thats a muffler on top of the filters, my friend scott designed it. Its made with 2 8x6 reducers, some sheet metal, some gutter mesh and some spongy foam. Total cost around $20. He even came up with a design that works without the 8x6 reducers.

This baby should shine once I get a couple more coats of chrome paint on there and add my chrome car trim around the seam.

[Dennis Peacock]

Derek,

What Jack has already shared with you is exactly correct. I have the Dust Eliminator Cyclone and I also went with the "build your own" blower. I used the Leeson 5hp motor (it has the 7/8" shaft) and the Jet arbor Terry had custom made for the Jet 14" impeller. The number of CFM this baby moves according to all the approved testing methods is a REAL 1,548CFM with 6" pipe.

Here is my exact configuration:
1. The DE Cyclone
2. 5hp Leeson motor
3. Jet 14" impeller
4. Home built blower housing
5. FARRAPC 13 by 34 cartridge filter

I will be doing the installation this coming weekend. I have at least one very LONG duct run since my shop is 1,800 sq ft and I figured my longest single run would be about 60 feet to my TS.

I am using homemade blast gates (Terry's design) and I am also working on a very inexpensive Wireless Remote to be used with the DE Cyclone. I am expecting my Wireless Remote to cost me somewhere around $50 complete and it will handle the 30 Amp load of starting the blower unit.

The numbers on Terry's web site are "actual" numbers and are NOT hyped up sells numbers. The Dwyer guage only tells one story.....the actual measurment of air flow....then it's just simple calculations to get the exact air velocity, CFM and Static Pressure.

I have a 2 hp 2 bag DC I have used for years and I even upgraded the bags to the 1 micron bags and this did help the CFM to improve slightly...but....nothing to compare against the DE Cyclone....so...for about $600 and a few nights work, you could have one Super-Duper cyclone that will really SUCK...!!!

Just my 2¢ added here.

[dntsdad]

Derek

Let me just start by saying that I was/am in the test group of people that were the guinea pigs for Terry on this cyclone project with the help of Bill.

I do not know Terry or Bill except for exchanging 100's emails with Bill for a year or so and Terry just recently at the beginning of this project and also by email only. Actually come to think of it I have never even heard either of their voices before.

SOme comments from me:
I fyou read Terry's page he states that the kits are in the hands of engineers, woodworkers, and other smart people. What he doesn't tell you is that he also sent one to a complete idiot when it comes to metal working, soldering and rolling of metal; ME.

I had never done anything like this type of work before and you know what? I t was the most fun I have had on a project in quite some time. I thouroghly enjoyed it as much as my first project in wood that didn't fall apart. Sure there were a few times that I was about ready to throw it through the wall and a few where I had to break out the paper money instead of the coins to contribute to the cuss jar that kids made but doesn't that happen on almost every project. I am glad I did it.

Couple of things:
The airramp is now not a part of the kit that Terry is selling as I understand it. This makes the assembly 100% easier than the kit that Jack and I have IMO.

The instruction manual that has been made from the collabrative feedback from the test group is also very good and if you are stuck, Terry answers his email faster than most people answer their phone.

I dont have all that much into the cyclone but I already had a 3hp Baldor motor so I did not have to buy that but even still I would be WAY under the $1500 that you were talking for the Oneida.

If you go with the cyclone kit and the Jet 14" impeller get the blower kit that Terry sells. I did mine before he had that going and by looking at the picture it looks like a great deal. My blower has nickled and dimed me more than his costs.

You wrote:
"Cost aside, I just want to know which works better. My next question would be, could a non-tech type with no sheet metal experience, put together the Dust Eliminator?"

Believe me that if I can, you can.
feel free to contact me if you have questions or want more pics than Jack posted. I have a ton of them that I took along the way.

Jason
dntsdad@sbcglobal.net

[Bill Pentz]

Derek,

The design I published and share for free on my web sites pulls under 1.3" of static pressure, gets a real 97% separation efficiency of the under 30 micron particles and about 99.9% of the larger particles, and does so with about 1/3 less horsepower in your blower. The competition pulls at least 3" with most over 4", only get a tiny part of the under 30 micron sized particles, and only provide about 1200 CFM maximum at your machines until you are into a real 5 hp motor. Unlike most others, my design cone does not clog when you move lots of material, nor does the filter need cleaned every few minutes of sanding.

The efficiency in my design lets you use a much smaller motor. My 2 hp motor driving a custom airfoil works well with this design. Some don't care for the cleaning and having to always keep one blast gate open, so I came up with a budget blower design that the Dust Eliminator uses. It uses a Leeson compressor motor driving a Jet 14" diameter impeller.

Nothing short of a full 5 hp unit can touch this real 3 hp design for efficiency in both separation and airflow. I still recommend both Oneida-Air and WoodSucker, because they are good people with good products, especially for those who can't or don't want to build their own. I'm miffed by the deplorable American Woodworker Central Dust Collection article and know that Oneida-Air did not run that article by their engineering department.

So, how does the Dust Eliminator stack up? Since it is exactly this same design put out by Terry Hatfield as a way to make it easier for fellow hobbyists to build my design, I'd say pretty well. In fact, I'd say that nothing else available today can come close. Terry asked me to be his partner. I had to say no. I may or may not make it past my next cold or bout of flu. I said I would give him my best because I belive in what he is doing to try to help fellow woodworkers.

What Terry did was invest a ton of his own money and far more time trying to help with a kit that takes most of errors away from building my design with his dead-on accurate pieces. Terry has put 5 to 10 hours a day on this effort and subsidized the cost for a dozen people to build his cyclone with their promises to help with pictures and to provide detailed building instructions. A few are just now coming through, but to my knowledge, only Terry and I have working units. Soon I expect to see some pretty impressed folks as these Dust Eliminator cyclones are incredible!!

I can only stand a couple of hours a day total right now, and my unit was done in less than twelve hours work. I'm not that fast, and tend to be extra careful. I've also built six cyclones and rebuilt maybe a dozen. With the now very detailed and highly pictured new instructions, most woodworkers with little to no metal skills should be able to comfortably build one of these in under two days work.

Terry just started marketing these units, but because he is now a "vendor" (really a hobbyist woodworker trying to make enough to recover his costs) he is not allowed to blow his own horn and frankly can not afford much if any advertising. He offers clubs or groups that will order ten at a time shipped to a single address a huge break in cost because his batch setup cost and shipping costs are most of the price of this unit. He also has too much of a soft heart.

bill

PS.. my qualifications.. I play a mean dixieland clarinet, mellow sax, pretty wild guitar or keyboard and 29 years of teaching university engineering with a few successful businesses, books, and other interesting things thrown in.

[Terry Hatfield]

Guess I don't have much to add to what has already been said.

Please email me if anyone has further questions.

Thanks so much,

Terry

[dntsdad]

Bill

You look nothing like I pictured you!!

I figured you to be handsome. :D

Take care and be healthy.

Jason

[Derek Arita]

Thanks so much for all the help! The DE sounds like the way to go. I just have a few specific questions to ask, but I'm very impressed by all the great comments. Thanks again!

[Scott Coffelt]

I am the Scott that Jack talked about. Terry and Bill have provided in my opinion an invaluable service. Both have used their learnings and hard work to help others. All I can say is I wish I would have known what I do today 10 years ago. I have ashma and it has gotten worse over the years. I started with no DC, moved to a Delta 1200CFM unit (yeah right), Jet air cleaner. The big stuff gets captured but my shop is always dusty because the bags and performance of the DC. With the help of these two, I am closer to having a healthier shop.

I do not own or have seen the the units already made in action, so I can not personally comment on them. Due to the price, I had to go down the road of making my DC. I started the process using the Wood Deisgn system, when DE came along I changed course. I made it in on the test group, which Jack has already provided great details on. Now that I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, doing the final sealing of my system now, I am looking forward to getting this thing operational.

If you have patience, time and want to try something new, and save some monies, go with the DE. Heck, Jack and I have been talking about painting them our college school colors, though I see he chickened out and went with silver. You can really make this thing yours. As Jack mentioned, I designed and built some mufflers. Since my system isn't up yet I can not provide the performance specs yet, but I am sure someone will soon. I have tried to document my design and process. If intertested, I can send a softcopy. Bill has it and when he has a moment will be including it on his site to be down loaded.

Good Luck and thanks to Terry and Bill.

[Bill Pentz]

[Derek Arita
Member

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 14

Bill Pentz,

Thanks for your response... I have been in touch with Terry with specific DC questions, but I do have a few questions for you.

1. Is it really necessary to use 6" all the way to the tool? What will happen if I don't?

2. If you use the 5hp Leeson option, will I need to open additional gates in order to not starve the system? What is "starving" the system and does it do damage to the system?

3. Many people seem to be happy with 2 and 3 hp systems in their garage shops. Is the 5hp overkill or do I really need it?

I'm sure I'll have more questions in future. Thanks so much for your dedication.

Take care,
Derek
~~~~~
Derek,

The amount of air moved determines how well you get the fine dust. That amount is determined by the blower pressure and the size of the pipe. For typical hobbyist type blowers 4" pipe gives about 400 CFM and picks up the same sawdust that you would get with a broom pretty well. The 5" diameter pipe will go up to 600 CFM and get more of the fine dust, but not enough according to the standards that air engineers like AAF design to which requires 800 CFM at our larger tools. To get that much airflow you need to step up to 6" duct going right to your larger machines.

With a material movement impeller like the Jet with the Leeson 5 hp compressor motor (really a 3 hp but they rate compressor motors strange) it does not hurt anything to close all down. In fact, if you measure when all is closed down gives the lowest motor amperage saying the motor is doing the least work. That makes sense as it does the most work when pushing the most air. With an airfoil impeller you need to keep up ample volume or the airfoil stalls and hurts itself.

So, to be specific, go with 6" right to all your larger tools. I go to all my tools with 6" and then in a few cases split into multiple 4"s after my blast gate. The Jet and Leeson don't care about how many gates are open. If too little air is flowing, you do get clogs, so you should always have the equivalent of your main open in terms of other gates. That means if you have a 6" main, you should open two 4" to avoid plugging. Since the Dust Eliminator is really a 3 hp system, I would agree that many, including me are happy with it.

Hope this helps,

bill