M2 Irons - Will Anyone Ever Make Them?

[David Weaver]

OK, now that we have all of the manufacturer specific stuff wiped off the board, general question, and people who have used these will understand why it's even a question:

Is anyone ever going to make M2 irons for planes - aftermarket, that is?

If you use one, you'll realize just how much more durable they are than any of the O1, A2, D2 irons that are out there. You "can't bust them", no matter how much you abuse them.

Is there a cost issue with making them? (stock cost or grinding, etc)? Is it the fear that people will call them "hard to sharpen"?

Can anyone who manufactures planes or irons offer an opinion? It's doubly confusing since mujingfang makes a high speed steel iron for their planes, and the whole plane sells for the cost of a replacement iron. The ones with a chipbreaker are a little ugly, but otherwise, they are fabulous to use.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I just posted this in another thread:


As far as M2 blade goes, I don't think it'll be a regular replacement blade for most people. It has its place, especially on really hard or silica loaded wood, it can really bulldoze through materials that will otherwise obliterate O1 or A2 blade. I have one and I use it to overcome those conditions, but for the rest of planing, I use O1, A2 and laminated blue steel blade.

It's really tough to sharpen it. That's why it's durable and last long, but it resists wear on stone/abrasive, too. If you hollow grind and remove as much metal as possible on bevel, you may be able to achieve relatively efficient sharpening, but without that and trying to sharpen full bevel every time will be a dreadful task real quick.

It seems M2 is very picky with sharpening mediums. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've had success and failure trying to find the right sharpening medium for this particular steel. But the question is, would I want to have bunch of different setup for every steel I have. I don't. Scary sharp worked well, but I don't use scary sharp and I'm not about to have a scary sharp station just for this blade. Shapton Pro works well with all of my O1 and A2 blades and Pro #12000 never disappointed me...except I don't feel it's a good match for M2. It puts good edge, but it just doesn't seem as sharp as it could be.

I think people's experience will vary, but would most people want to experiment and try different setup, or go through all this just for a plane blade? It's a lot to be asked from a plane blade. When I ordered Paul Williams M2 blade, I thought it was expensive, but now I consider it that if you are willing to pay that much (think nearly twice more expensive than a Hock blade) for a blade, you should be determined to figure a way to sharpen it. I can imagine a lot of people giving up on them due to lack of proper or good sharpening equipments, wrong technique or whatever. I honestly doubt it'll ever achieve the kind of popularity A2 or O1 have achieved. It's not as...accommodating as those steels.

If you ever happen to use micro bevel without hollow grind, trying to grind off micro bevel is a work by itself on M2.Get it from Paul Williams of Academy Saws in Australia. Check this page (http://www.hntgordon.com.au/paulwilliams.htm) for phone number.

Edit: It is longer lasting than other blades, but that doesn't mean it'll retain super sharp edge. Just like any other blade, it'll go through phases and it seems "no sharp, but not dull" phase is the longest phase. So if you don't need sharpest edge and need to bulldoze through materials for extended period of time, it'll do great. But if you want the sharpest edge to leave smoothest surface, go with O1 or A2. M2 takes bit longer to touch up, too. It's really not the answer if you need to get anything done quick.

[David Weaver]

I just posted this in another thread:

Get it from Paul Williams of Academy Saws in Australia. Check this page (http://www.hntgordon.com.au/paulwilliams.htm) for phone number.

Edit: It is longer lasting than other blades, but that doesn't mean it'll retain super sharp edge. Just like any other blade, it'll go through phases and it seems "no sharp, but not dull" phase is the longest phase. So if you don't need sharpest edge and need to bulldoze through materials for extended period of time, it'll do great. But if you want the sharpest edge to leave smoothest surface, go with O1 or A2. It takes bit longer to touch up, too.

I agree, it loses "initial keen" fairly quickly. It stays in the stage after that for a very long time. I think HCS and japanese blades are best for super high quality smoothing where you want to have no lines at all on the work. My m2 irons seem to fail in such a way that there are tiny little lines - not big ones like large chips, just little tiny ones. But they cut like that for a very long time and make a great jack/fore iron since they're resistant to abrasion and breakage.

I don't know how much they cost there, but I remember them being about $100. It seems like someone should be able to make them for less if muji is making something that feels like HCS for $10-$12 for a replacement iron.

[Dale Sautter]

Hi David,

I've been doing a bit research into this today, might well have made some progress. I found an outfit in California that looks like they could handle it. These were the original rough specs for size, as I was looking for a custom woodie iron:

1/4" thick M2 HSS
2" wide
6" long
25° bevel angle
All grinding and tempering included... (their M2 HSS product specs: Obtainable hardness: 63 - 65 HRc)

Just got the last reply a few minutes ago and what follows is the first and second reply. I asked if it would be OK to quote him on prices as I would like to see how much interest there might be:

First reply:


Honestly making these from scratch just for 1 piece is not cost-efficient. Our minimum order quantity for this blade is 5 pieces at $69.00 each being the material M2 High Speed Steel.

If you need one piece, I can reduce our minimum order qty to two pieces at $103.00 each.

If it all works out the way you need, we can reduce our price to more reasonable area for larger volumes.



Second reply:


I can go down to $49.00 each for a minimum of 30 pieces or $58 for 20 pieces for M2 material

M2 high speed steel would provide longer lifetime and it's around two-three times more expensive than A2.

As far as hardness, grinding and tempering, yes, everything is included in the price.

Please let me know if you have any questions.


Here is the website, in case anyone has ever heard of them: California Knife & Blade (www.caknife.com)

Sounds like this is do-able, it's just that I don't have deep pockets to finance a decent run which would bring the prices down to a very nice point, by myself.

What do you think? Has anyone else done something like this?

[Leigh Betsch]

What is the flatness tolerance? I wouldn't want to lap a M2 blade very much.

[Dale Sautter]

What is the flatness tolerance? I wouldn't want to lap a M2 blade very much.

From their "Capabilities (http://www.caknife.com/Capabilities.aspx)" page:


Manufacturing machine knives and blades with strict tolerances such as ±0.001mm may be too extreme for some companies. However, at California Knife & Blade, working with these tolerances and thicknesses such as 0.004inch (0.1mm) is our everyday life


Sorry Leigh, I did not ask though... but ya, I don't think that that would be too much fun lapping.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I think if moderator(s) are ok, you may be able to organize group buy here. One thing I think important is get discussion among members to raise interest as well as inform the nature of steel. M2 can be really frustrating piece of steel to deal with if uninformed or lack the proper or right sharpening medium. Even if you can knock it down to $50, it is still quite an expensive blade, and if you happen to have wrong sharpening setup means a blade of substandard performance. It takes a bit of commitment.

[Leigh Betsch]

+/- .001mm is pretty tight, I'd be surprised if they can hold the flatness to that over a 2"x6" blade, but thickness to .004" ain't much to brag about. I would think flatness to .0005" and thickness to +/- .001" would be a walk in the park for anyone with a surface grinder. When I was doing mold and die work I surface ground many parts to +/- .0002 thickness and .0001 flatness. But not at his price! If you get the flatness tolerance worked out I might be interested, depending on what some of the "Great Neanderthals" on this site think about M2. I've only used it for metal cutting tools where you need the hardness at high working temps of metal cutting. You might also quiz him on the surface finish he will commit to. You need a surface finish that is conducive to achieving the final polish you are looking for.

[David Weaver]

We'll see how much interest gets drummed up here. The one thing that might be limiting is that those irons would have to be used either in an infill plane or a woody.

They would not be for any of the hard core group who likes to use sandpaper or abrasives to grind their primaries, I can attest to that.

It'd be nice if a retailer picked them up, but of course a retailer would tack on their share of cost, too.

Another side benefit of them would be that for people who like to use dry grinders, the margin of error in grinding them would be a lot higher - you could grind and microbevel, which would make them a non-issue for sharpening once the back was flattened.

They'd make for a really interesting iron in a woody jack.

From my experience, they'd be completely off limits for someone who uses oilstones, and if you use sandpaper, they may frustrate you, too. On a diamond hone, they are no issue at all - diamond cuts them very well. Waterstones do an acceptable job also, as long as you are not trying to hone a large area.

[Leigh Betsch]

Woodies rock!
And I subscribe to the George Wilson school of blade sharpening. Diamond. Ceramic, and strop. So bring on the hard stuff.

[george wilson]

The thing about HSS is that it has too large a grain to take as sharp an edge as simpler steels. It will take hard stones like Leigh has to sharpen it. D2 is the same way. it has so much chrome in it,12%,that it is very hard and wear resistant. I made a few knives out of it,and could not get it shaving sharp till I got ceramic stones. it,and possibly HSS,but certainly D2,may not feel as sharp as it really is. I've had it shave hairs when it just didn't have that sharp a feel.

You might want to play around with the sharpening angles on an M2 blade. A less acute edge might be best,and last longer.

[Leigh Betsch]

If you believe everything you read on the Internet (sheesh who doesn't!)Hitachi supposedly has a HSS that has a fine grain structure, some of the Japanese plane makers use it. I don't know if we can get it over here. I know there are some pretty exotic powered metallurgy tool steels that claim a fine structure but I don't know if anybody uses them for blades. I probably should try a HSS blade just for fun. After all this sport isn't about doing things smart and saving money it's all about having fun!! I got a slab of mesquite coming my way for a new joiner so I figure I should get a blade to match. Just wouldn't be right to put one of those A2 butter blades in a mesquite joiner now would it!

[Sam Takeuchi]

As far as exotic steel goes, anything from white steel, blue steel, some unheard of steels of various stuff, HSS, powdered steel, Japanese plane blade makers already make blades with those and they are available. I really envy them for having huge variety of edge steel choice than elsewhere. Tsunesaburo has a good online catalog (only in Japanese though) of blades with different steels, but they don't recommend one type of edge steel for everything. Instead, they have a chart indicating suitable edge steel for soft/medium/hard　and so on.

One thing I can say is that M2 doesn't work all that well as a smoother blade on softwood. So if your main material is soft wood, and want a M2 smoother blade, I'd say that's a wrong combination.

[Ray Gardiner]

The thing about HSS is that it has too large a grain to take as sharp an edge as simpler steels. It will take hard stones like Leigh has to sharpen it. D2 is the same way. it has so much chrome in it,12%,that it is very hard and wear resistant. I made a few knives out of it,and could not get it shaving sharp till I got ceramic stones. it,and possibly HSS,but certainly D2,may not feel as sharp as it really is. I've had it shave hairs when it just didn't have that sharp a feel.

You might want to play around with the sharpening angles on an M2 blade. A less acute edge might be best,and last longer.


Hi George,

The grain size depends on the heat treatment process, the one used on the M2 plane blades here, was a salt bath process which yields a finer grain structure. Maybe a metallurgist could explain why this is so, but the process is fairly critical as I understand it.

Unfortunately I can't provide a link as that will violate the SMC terms of service :-) (They prohibit linking to other forums)

If you do a bit of searching you might find it.

Regards
Ray

Here is a link to a pdf that shows the M2 phase diagram and advantages of salt bath http://www.met-sol.com/assets/Industry/met-sol-article2.pdf

[David Weaver]

As far as exotic steel goes, anything from white steel, blue steel, some unheard of steels of various stuff, HSS, powdered steel, Japanese plane blade makers already make blades with those and they are available. I really envy them for having huge variety of edge steel choice than elsewhere. Tsunesaburo has a good online catalog (only in Japanese though) of blades with different steels, but they don't recommend one type of edge steel for everything. Instead, they have a chart indicating suitable edge steel for soft/medium/hard　and so on.

One thing I can say is that M2 doesn't work all that well as a smoother blade on softwood. So if your main material is soft wood, and want a M2 smoother blade, I'd say that's a wrong combination.

In my trial and error opinion, an ideal smoother for softwood is either white steel or one of the english specialty steels, and on a kanna. In my opinion, at least.

I have a couple of cutlery steel kannas with wrought iron backing, a couple of white steel ones, a blue steel (haven't used it yet) and a nice wrought iron backed togo inukubi kanna - I think the last is ideal for softwood (and medium hardwoods), because the steel sharpens easily, takes a great edge, and holds it plenty long in softwood. I am growing to not like the cutlery steel kanna so much because of sharpening them - they are all 64 and 70 mm, and sharpening a cutlery steel kanna with a thicker lamination is a chore if it's allowed to get very dull.

But for hardwoods, M2 is great. You could do all of your work with it and then make one pass with a high carbon steel smoother if you weren't happy with the way M2 fails and leaves minute lines behind.

I've never used any m2 irons at 25 degree final bevel angle or anything like that, so I can't comment on whether or not it has the same ills that A2 does with chipout at low angles. I always make the final bevel with it 35 degrees.

George is right with his comment above, in my opinion about how it feels, it's sharper than it feels subjectively. When you're feeling around on it, it feels slick, same as when you use it, and you find it will shave hair when it subjectively feels less sharp than other irons. I agree with the comment about ceramics, diamond, etc. for sharpening because of what it does - it scratches the surface uniformly regardless of the carbides, at least at the level that I can magnify it (25-50x?).

I think it makes a nice steel for tools, and one better than d2 for plane irons because of its durability.

I think Fujibato also usually has some high-end irons in his selection, but his site is also in japanese. I don't speak japanese, but I managed to guess my way through it a couple of times, enough to register and make a few purchases since he takes paypal (figure no matter what you screw up in the order form, he still has your address and money). All worked out fine. His auction deals are better than most of the fixed price deals on his site, but he does have tsunesaburo irons cheaper than I've seen them over here anywhere. I try to avoid "it brand" or "hot brand" chisels and planes because they seem really expensive to me and I've had good luck with some of the less well known stuff.

[David Weaver]

Hi George,

The grain size depends on the heat treatment process, the one used on the M2 plane blades here, was a salt bath process which yields a finer grain structure. Maybe a metallurgist could explain why this is so, but the process is fairly critical as I understand it.

Unfortunately I can't provide a link as that will violate the SMC terms of service :-) (They prohibit linking to other forums)

If you do a bit of searching you might find it.

Regards
Ray

Here is a link to a pdf that shows the M2 phase diagram and advantages of salt bath http://www.met-sol.com/assets/Industry/met-sol-article2.pdf

Ray, if it's properly heat treated, where does the grain size come in compared to O1 and A2?

[Ray Gardiner]

Ray, if it's properly heat treated, where does the grain size come in compared to O1 and A2?

Hi David,

Sorry, I don't know how the grain size compares. My gut feel is that good old 01 high carbon steel still give the best edge, these newer steels M2 D2 etc can get pretty good, but the big advantage is durability. The disadvantage is you need diamond to sharpen them.

There is plenty of feed back on how M2 blades perform on the other forum, that I'm not allowed to link to. The guy who kick started the whole thing is Helmut, aka Thumbsucker, look for the thread titled "ThumbSuckers Blades IRL!"

I'm sure Helmut (if you ask nicely) would be more than happy to give you chapter and verse on the process, maybe you could do something similar on this forum. (Not sure what the TOS has to say about group purchases, might be worth checking with a moderator first)

Regards
Ray

[David Weaver]

Wow...that iron and chipbreaker set looks fabulous!

That's just the ticket.