Sawstop contractor error

[dan lemkin]

Hi,

I have a contractor sawstop. About 1 year old. During the winter it kept coasting down. I called sawstop and was told that it was because the sensor was cold. It never worked reliably, even after warming it up.

Now that it is warm, I started using it again. Same problem. It will start up, then within a minute or so, rapid green blink, coast down, and turn red.

I replaced the cartridge today... no change. I took off the blade, and blew out everything, with compressed air. Re-assembled and no change. I changed recepticle... on dedicated 20amp circuit.. no change. Checked all plugs, connections... nothing is loose.

Here is video of the error I am getting. I can not find the pattern in the book.

SAWSTOP VIDEO (http://zarg.net/sawstop.mov)


Any ideas?
I will be calling sawstop on monday... but maybe an answer lies out there that will allow me to fix this weekend.

[Charlie Kocourek]

That is a PROBLEM!

I have had amazing service from Saw Stop. Every time I called they called back and had an answer. One time I called because I had an odd error and could not get my saw to run. As it turned out, I left the inspection door open. Closed the door and everything was fine. I don't have an answer to your question, but I am sure they will figure it out. Not much consolation when your saw won't run, I know. The "because it is cold" does sound kind of lame. Let us know when you finally get an answer.

Charlie

[Brendan Plavis]

Try rubbing down the sensor, maybe something funky is on it, and the malfunctions are its way of saying its POed...

Other than that, good luck with techsupport... I had a tech support person one time tell me that wireless signals "walk" down hallways instead of going through walls... No lie... "walk"

[John Coloccia]

I think it's blinking out the code for the cartridge key not being fully turned (not making good contact maybe?). I think the steady red is the "replace cartridge" code, so maybe you have an intermittent there somewhere or it's just not seating well for some reason. Has it always done this? I know of one, and actually maybe two, wiring harnesses that have been pinched and damaged so you may want to give a quick look at that just to see if there's something obvious there.

Or maybe it's a new model that spins down when it detects you're ABOUT to do something dangerous :D

[Neil Brooks]

Cold, huh?

Why does that make me think corrosion on some contacts, somewhere?

Have any Lectra-motive, or other contact cleaner ??

I might suggest pulling what can be pulled, and trying to clean out visible contacts.

Is that IT ?

Dunno. COULD do it, though.

[dan lemkin]

the tech explained that the saws were designed to run in garage shops... therefore taking into account cold environments. Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is this...

The tech said the cartridges have a heating element in them to keep the mechanism warm. When it fires, that huge capacitor discharges and melts a fuse which releases the spring, which shoves the aluminum block into the blade. Maybe in a very cold environment, the fuse might not melt quickly enough and would delay or prevent reliable firing...

Actually kinda cool that they think of this stuff. He said if you keep the master switch on, it keeps the heating element energized... which is kinda a waste of energy, but supposedly will not harm the saw.

The only contacts I see are the little DB25 VGA style contact... no way to really clean this. I did blow it out with compressed air. I tried a brand new cartridge... and that did not work... so not sure where/if an intermittent connection would be.

The only plug I saw is the edison to the wall, and there is a power connector to the motor... that appears to be solid. The motor does not hesitate or indicate any power fluctuation...

the enigma continues...

dan

[David Prince]

Put your finger on the blade when it is on and spinning and see if you can get the saw to reset itself! :eek:

J/K LOL

[Neil Brooks]

Got a decent voltmeter?

Have you verified that there's *absolutely no problem* with the power to that circuit/outlet ??

Ya' never know....

Even plugging in a table lamp ... and turning it on ... to see if it shines brightly and steadily vs. flickering, and then dark....

:confused:

[dan lemkin]

I do.. I actually have a oscilloscope meter with trending... I will check the outlets... But it is all new copper... so don't suspect much.

I also have a TED5000 with voltage trending... at my service panel. Here is a recent graph.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dan,

The incoming power looks good to me!

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

Please check your red cartridge key and check distance between blade and aluminum brake. I did have near same problem, but my cartridge was old with old software. SawStop sent me a new cartridge and problem was solve.
Any way please call they tech suport.
Ed.

[Matt Meiser]

I do.. I actually have a oscilloscope meter with trending... I will check the outlets... But it is all new copper... so don't suspect much.

I also have a TED5000 with voltage trending... at my service panel. Here is a recent graph.

Show off. :D

[dan lemkin]

Show off. :D

Just a goon who likes toys... but the scope is really neat. :)

[Glen Blanchard]

Please check your red cartridge key and check distance between blade and aluminum brake.

I have to agree with Eduard. Check the distance between blade and brake. Use a nickel to set the proper gap.

[Terry Hatfield]

I do.. I actually have a oscilloscope meter with trending... I will check the outlets... But it is all new copper... so don't suspect much.

I also have a TED5000 with voltage trending... at my service panel. Here is a recent graph.

Now that's just wrong. :D

[Tom Henderson2]

I do.. I actually have a oscilloscope meter with trending... I will check the outlets... But it is all new copper... so don't suspect much.

I also have a TED5000 with voltage trending... at my service panel. Here is a recent graph.

Is that kinda like a Binford 5000, but with better graphics?

-TH

[dan lemkin]

The gap is very close.... I used the yellow spacer, and it JUST fits between a Forrest WWII. Definitely less than 3/32... I will play with it, but it can't get much closer... The Red key slides in easily, and rotates about 1/4 turn. It feels secure, and appears to be fully seated... I will recheck it.

When I was cleaning it, I turned on main power after I had replaced the module but before I put the blade in. At that point I did get the error noting that the module distance had to be adjusted. This is very different than the behavior I get after I replaced the blade and turned it back on...

The video above shows the slow cycling of the red and green lights... which does not match any error pattern. That is what seems to point to an intermittent issue, or real problem...

I will certainly provide feedback from tech support when I get their response.

Does anyone know if I can exchange the power box electronics if that turns out to be the problem. I really don't want to have to break this down to ship it out.

The TED is really cool. Tracks energy usage for entire house. It even interfaces with google powermeter.... they love to aggregate data... so they take your power usage data by zipcode and provide you with online near real-time data...

[Paul Ryan]

Dan,

I ran into the cold problem this winter. I work in my shop down to 20 degrees but the cartridges dont want to work when it is that cold. So I put the cartridges in the house until ready to use them. I bring them out when I have time to work. Once installed and the saw is turned on everything is good to go. No need to leave the power on all of the time.

Changing out the electronic box is easy. My saw originally came with a box that sawstop decided to change when then when to full production, so they sent a replacement. I haven't replaced mine but, the instructions look simple enough, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Before you call tech support, turn the saw on let it run until it shuts off. When the red light is on solid, turn the by-pass key forward and try to turn the blade on. That should put it into diag mode and and the lights should blink slowly count each blink. Green 4 blinks, red 2 blinks for example, that would represent a code 42 that tech support will be able to use. Good luck

[dan lemkin]

This am I rechecked everything... blade distance, red cartridge key. I even dropped the armature (as it does when it triggers) and reset it to make sure it was seated properly.. I tried different extension, different outlets, different circuits... no change

Thanks for the tip about the error code... I got 4 red flashes... that repeat while I am holding the key... when I release it they both flash rapidly. I assume that translates to error code 4.

Anyone have a diagnostic chart with these codes. I can not find on one the web...

thanks
dan

[Paul Ryan]

Only chart I know of that translates the codes, resides in the vault at sawstop. So you will still have to wait until 7:30 am pacific time to find out.

[Keith Albertson]

Dan,

I had a difficult to diagnose problem with my PCS. And tech support was able to figure it out. Two things,

1. Don't worry about shipping it back. They offered to send a repair guy out to my house, no charge. We ended up figuring out the problem without a repair visit, but it was nice to know I wasn't going to have to try to ship it somewhere.

2. The saw's electronics will provide the tech suppport guy with some info. After you turn on the switch and it runs through its diagnostics, turn the by-pass key and hold it for over 10 seconds. Keep holding it. There will be a quick flash of green, then a repeating set of red and green flashes, long and short. As someone else mentioned, this is an error code. I don't think they've published an error code list for public consumption, but the tech support person will want this information.

If at alll possible, call them from your shop. They will have you try several things to try to nail down the problem. I actually spent over an hour on the phone with them while they waitied as I tried different things and adjustments. They will help you out. Unfortunately, you'll have to wait for Monday, and miss a weekend using the saw....

[Neil Brooks]

If we can keep this thread alive ... tomorrow morning will be here before he knows it :)

That's good to know -- that SS will send people. Apparently, a number of the other majors will, too.

I was a bit disheartened when -- on my two Dead on Arrival conditions -- Grizzly told me that NOT having ANY sort of a field network was part of their low-price strategy.

It was looking a LOT like I'd have to disassemble my band saw, get it back up the stairs, re-package it, and send it back.

As most of you can imagine ... I had a REALLY difficult time getting excited about that :(

Out of curiosity ... have you just tried *slapping* the saw? I believe it's loosely referred to as "Brogan maintenance" :D

[Tom Henderson2]

Only chart I know of that translates the codes, resides in the vault at sawstop. So you will still have to wait until 7:30 am pacific time to find out.

Any idea why they keep their customers in the dark on important stuff like this?

[Neil Brooks]

Any idea why they keep their customers in the dark on important stuff like this?

One totally uninformed guess:

Their brand is pretty new.

That means that a really high % of their products might still be covered under warranty.

Give the customer the map to the diagnostic codes, and ... some of them are likely to try to tear into pretty NON user-serviceable parts, in an effort to fix them.

That might increase the cost of the eventual fix, under warranty, and/or might result in the company feeling obligated to start denying warranty claims, when the user tried a DIY maneuver.

Just a WAG......

[John Coloccia]

Any idea why they keep their customers in the dark on important stuff like this?

I'll answer as an engineer, although this doesn't necessarily mean it applies to SawStop. Often times, when I burry these sorts of diagnostic a product, the diagnostic codes are truly meaningless with context. The context is the code + the problem + a knowledge of exactly how the firmware/hardware behave with each other.

So for example, a code the means "XYZ switch not in proper state" can mean a zillion different things. As an example of a non-obvious meaning, it could mean that some other, completely unrelated, problem has occurred, which sends the firmware into a condition where it doesn't check for the proper setting of a particular switch before trying to execute a command and the prior state of the switch is used instead...which happened to be in the "bad" state the last time it was checked even though it's in the good state now.

There's no way to diagnose this unless you know everything there is to know about the device, and it does more harm than good to publish a list of error codes that are truly meaningless to the end user. It's less about keeping anyone in the dark and more about not publishing misleading data.

I can't say that this is the situation, but it's a very common situation. The right way to look at it is "someone at SawStop is thinking ahead and buried diagnostics into the software" as opposed to simply disabling them. Diagnostic software is very often disabled for just this reason, I'm afraid.

I know it can be frustrating, but that's my best guess.

[Joe Shinall]

I think you're low on sawdust. Check the level and change the toner if needed. :D

[Paul Ryan]

I'll answer as an engineer, although this doesn't necessarily mean it applies to SawStop. Often times, when I burry these sorts of diagnostic a product, the diagnostic codes are truly meaningless with context. The context is the code + the problem + a knowledge of exactly how the firmware/hardware behave with each other.

So for example, a code the means "XYZ switch not in proper state" can mean a zillion different things. As an example of a non-obvious meaning, it could mean that some other, completely unrelated, problem has occurred, which sends the firmware into a condition where it doesn't check for the proper setting of a particular switch before trying to execute a command and the prior state of the switch is used instead...which happened to be in the "bad" state the last time it was checked even though it's in the good state now.

There's no way to diagnose this unless you know everything there is to know about the device, and it does more harm than good to publish a list of error codes that are truly meaningless to the end user. It's less about keeping anyone in the dark and more about not publishing misleading data.

I can't say that this is the situation, but it's a very common situation. The right way to look at it is "someone at SawStop is thinking ahead and buried diagnostics into the software" as opposed to simply disabling them. Diagnostic software is very often disabled for just this reason, I'm afraid.

I know it can be frustrating, but that's my best guess.

Kind of a little off topic, but this is the same reason consumers shouldn't buy or use the little scaners that suposidly scan for codes in cars/trucks. You may pull a code that says "right front wheel speed sensor circuit" but that doesn't really mean that is what the problem is. It is just a place to start. I get a kick out of places like auto zone that scan codes for free. Just so they can sell more parts that may or may not fix the problem. After they sell you a few hundred dollars in parts and they don't fix the problem, then they say take it to your dealer.

[dan lemkin]

Error code defined: 4 = voltage drop/swing > 5v internal to switch box.

Plan: sending out a new switch box

I will update with outcome of this fix...



Kind of a little off topic, but this is the same reason consumers shouldn't buy or use the little scaners that suposidly scan for codes in cars/trucks.

Granted... but when they charge you $60 to turn off a warning light every time your wife forgets to tighten the gas cap.... it may be worth it...

[Paul Ryan]

Error code defined: 4 = voltage drop/swing > 5v internal to switch box.

Plan: sending out a new switch box

I will update with outcome of this fix...





Granted... but when they charge you $60 to turn off a warning light every time your wife forgets to tighten the gas cap.... it may be worth it...


Almost every code set will turn the light off after "2 good trips" So if your wife forget to tighten the cap the light will turn itself off after some time. "Evap" codes take longer to complete a good trip because of the vacuum cycles that needs to build in the fuel tank but it will turn itself off if there isn't any problem. But if the auto zone reader says that you have a "large leak" code does it mean it is the gas cap, a hose, the tank, the canister, the sensor, or PCM. To many variables.

Good luck with the table saw Dan. It shouldn't be too tough replacing, the toughest part will be accessing the wiring inside of the saw going to the brake. Let use know how it goes.

[Ted Baca]

just out of curiosity, have you tried a different blade? I have had mine for 3 yrs and never had this issue, but another thing you might try is unplug the saw and turn on the switch a few times then plug it back in. These do have micro processors and all micro processors seem a "reboot" once and awhile.

[Keith Pleas]

[Zombie Thread Alert] I just picked up a used "legacy" (has the old blade guard) SawStop Contractor Saw (CNS) and after seeing it run when picking it up, removed the motor and saw from the stand to transport home. I get it back together, hit the power switch, and steady red. So I googled around and found this thread...and tried everything. Removed the cartridge and sprayed VGA connector with contact cleaner - checked blade clearance - checked power - warmed up garage overnight to 50s - holding the bypass switch - no joy. And then...not quite sure why - but I pressed in on the paddle and it moved in about 1/4". Tried power, now green. So I'm leaving this breadcrumb in case someone ends up in exactly the same place.