Art Pieces

[GLENN THOMAS]

I was browsing around on youtube again and found a segment with Ron Kent, and it was mentioned that his bowls sell for $2500 to $3000. I also noticed on Mike Mahoney's web side that he has a Kitchen set that is listed for over $8000. Some of the artist featured in the book "New Masters of Woodturning" have a lot of work in the Del Mano gallery priced at thousands of dollars. Im not trying to belittle their work and although the work they do is outstanding I have seen a lot posted on SMC and various club web sites that could give them a run for their money. What do these folks know that we don't ? Ron Kent for example was a stock broker and self taught wood turner. While the idea of making that much money for any one piece is really nice, the idea of doing work so good that people would be willing to spend so much of their hard earned money on it is even nicer. Any thoughts?

GT

[alex carey]

Yes I know exactly what you mean. Some of these pieces just don't seem worth it at all. For some of these artists size starts becoming a factor. Ron Kent for instance makes some rather large pieces. 4 or 5 feet tall as far as I've seen, even though I personally don't like any of his large vases. In other cases I guess you start paying for the name behind the piece. They just know how to put themselves out there the right way.

[Steve Vaughan]

I think it's a mix of things. Someone's experience, their being published on the subject, of course the quality of their work as well as their creativity, their knowledge of wood and wood treatment, their knowing how to get their pieces in the right places, knowing the market they're after...and maybe just being dang more fortunate than most of us just because that's the way life is sometimes.

I'd imagine that anyone on the board here has come across a person or two that while they love and appreciate our work, they'd hesitate to pay even 20 bucks for a bowl, but in the right place that same bowl would fetch quite a bit more and the buyer would feel they got a steal of a deal.

[Steve Kubien]

Oh, I don't know. Last week I got a cheque for $4200 for one of my salad bowls. Of course, it bounced so high I'm getting threatening phone calls from NASA.:eek:

[Paul Atkins]

A friend of mine just got a walnut bowl at a yard sale - signed Bob Stocksdale - $2. I told him I would double his money, no deal.

[Joe Meirhaeghe]

I was browsing around on youtube again and found a segment with Ron Kent, and it was mentioned that his bowls sell for $2500 to $3000. I also noticed on Mike Mahoney's web side that he has a Kitchen set that is listed for over $8000. Some of the artist featured in the book "New Masters of Woodturning" have a lot of work in the Del Mano gallery priced at thousands of dollars. Im not trying to belittle their work and although the work they do is outstanding I have seen a lot posted on SMC and various club web sites that could give them a run for their money. What do these folks know that we don't ? Ron Kent for example was a stock broker and self taught wood turner. While the idea of making that much money for any one piece is really nice, the idea of doing work so good that people would be willing to spend so much of their hard earned money on it is even nicer. Any thoughts?

GT

Seriously You'd be surprised on what they know & we don't.
I happen to be friends with exactly one of the people who you are referring to. He & his work has been published in Masters Woodturning Major works by Leading Artist.
Many of his pieces have been in & some are currently in Del Mano. His pieces have sold for over $$10,000 some as high at $27,000 PLUS.
I have also been lucky enough to Apprentice under him for the past 2 yrs. And I still work with him & still Every day I spend with him I learn something new that a ordinary WOOD TURNER would never know. I have been involved in wood working for over 30 yrs before I started working with this man. His attention to Detail is Unbelievable.There are times he will re do something for a few thousands of a inch. His pieces are Flawlessly sanded, & Meticulously Finished. Things that are only noticeable to a TRUE WOOD ART COLLECTOR.
Yes there are TRUE COLLECTORS OF WOOD ART. & WHY SHOULDN'T THERE BE?
People pay Millions for OIL painting, I've seen Glass art in the $400,000 range, Fiber art for over $40,000,Hand made Jewelery for over a Million.
When someone buys one of their pieces it is a investment in a Piece of ART. I know of one piece that was sold the 1st time for about $10,000 about 3 years later resold for over $20,000. I'd say that was a pretty good return on investment for the 1st buyer wouldn't you. Most of these Artist Spend a enormous amount of time developing their own Signature Stile of Art which differences them fro others.
Also This is a Full time BUSINESS for Many of these People you are referring to. They have a Ton of $$$ invested in their Business. They invest Countless Hours, & have Business insurance, Travel expenses to Galleries all over the Country & many other expense's.
Then we could get in to Actors & athletics, Are any of them worth 15 to 20 Million to Do a movie or Play a Game of Sports?????
To answer your question Hell Yes their work is worth their Prices.
Can we afford to buy their work , probably not.
But this is America & we do have free enterprise. & If people are willing to pay their prices then their work must be worth it to the buyer.

[Curt Fuller]

I've never quite figured out what drives the art market. But one thing I'm pretty certain is that it isn't always just the quality of craftsmanship involved. When an artist's work reaches that point where it becomes valuable as an investment, something that will give back more than just aesthetic value, that's when the price is no longer an issue.

[Robert Snowden]

Rufffled your feathers you sure they are still all there.

[Joe Meirhaeghe]

Rufffled your feathers you sure they are still all there.
I may still have a few, but who knows for how long.
:eek:

[alex carey]

Although I see what your saying Joe, let me try and put into perspective what I think Glenn is trying to say, and what I agree with.

Lets take 5 of the turners Glenn was talking about that he runs across on smc and other turning sites. Obviously I mean the more experienced people who don't sell pieces for 10,000$ but still produce excellent work over and over. Now mix their turnings in with one turner who does sell his work in that price range.

Could most people including turners identify the 10,000$ turning over the 1000$ turning in a blindfold(not literally) lineup. I'm not so sure. As Glenn has already said, he certainly has trouble seeing their material worth and so do I. That may simply speak to our own knowledge as to what is a good turning, but I'm guessing and again I may be 100% wrong, but the art collector who pays 10,000$ for this piece probably does not know a skewchigouge from a bedan, and chances are they like the looks of the piece and they are now paying for a name as well the impeccable piece. If its in "this gallery" and its got "this price tag" it must be worth "this much".

i dunno, thoughts? Is this even what you mean Glenn?

[Joe Meirhaeghe]

Alex
I'm sure the real art collectors could care less as to what tools are use to make a piece. Just as I could care less as to what golf club Tiger WOODS uses.
However These Top Professional Turning Artist Have payed there dues to get to the Stature they Deserve.
And You are correct as to what most collectors are actually buying is a piece of the artist and this is as important to them as the actual piece of art is.

[Robert Snowden]

I am just happy to get one that is not used for fire wood.

[Robert Snowden]

I have seen some beautiful turning's .I will say that the big names comand some steep price's but if there is someone willing to pay i think the artist deserves what ever he get's.

[David DeCristoforo]

Anytime a woodworking artist gets the kind of recognition that allows them to command that level of pricing, I say go get em! Does anyone not understand why Sam Maloof got the prices he got for his pieces? Or how long he "paid dues" before he was able to get those prices? It's true that for every artist who gains recognition, there are a thousand equally good (if not better) artists struggling in obscurity. And it's not limited to woodworking. How many phenomenally good musicians have you never heard of? But those that do get the recognition make it possible for everyone to get a little more for their work. just MMHO....

[GLENN THOMAS]

Joe,

Well now you really got MY feathers ruffled !!

What in the world did I say to get your feathers so ruffled up ?

I never tried to insult anyone or insinuate their work was not worth the prices they asked ! If the artist I mentioned or any other can ask a million dollars for a piece and someone wants to pay it then good for them. Do I wish I could do that ? Heck yea I wish I could. Do have any hard feelings toward them ? ABSOLUTELY NOT. If anything I would have to say that in some ways I admire them.

I understand the their art is their lively hood and that being the case it stands to reason they would have a lot of time and effort invested in their work. I'm not just talking about wood turners but artist of every kind.

Joe, I think you took my question in a spirit in which it was not intended. I simply asked "What do they know that we don't?" You cant say it's attention to detail because I as well as everyone on SMC already knows that. You can't say it's paying you dues because we all know that too. You can't say it's an investment of their time and money because we all already know that also. Everyone knows that if your going to ask those prices you better have the quality to back it up. So again what do they know that we don't?

I just wondered what they did to be as successful as they are that other talented but unknown wood turners and artist have not done.

Joe, you should go groom your feathers and Ill go groom mine.

GT

[alex carey]

Agreed :)

[GLENN THOMAS]

Alex,

That bird looks like he's standing on a gas grill ready to fight for his life.


LOL

[alex carey]

anybody hungry?

[Stuart Reid]

I am a pretty new wood turner, less than four years, but I think I know why some "Artists" command such large prices for their work. I have recently purchased and viewed Malcolm Tibbetts three volume DVD collection and I haven't seen any work on this site, unless he has shown it, to compare to his work. I have seen many wonderful pieces here and many of the contributors here have loads of talent but Mr. Tibbetts and some of the other "Artists" mentioned go way beyond what I think is a good/great project. If you have read his book or watched his DVD's you know the attention to detail and creative talent that he possesses. I don't have any hope of elevating my skills to that level but I do use his ideas and techniques to raise the bar a little bit at least.

The price of an artwork is many times dependent on the name of the artist and rightly so. Just remember the hard work, trial and error, experimentation, and investment the artist made to make a name for himself. I am not motivated to reach that level only to make pieces that satisfy me and my friends when I give them as gifts. I have sold a few pens and bottle stoppers but the best joy for me is to complete a project that makes me proud of my work and the pleased expressions on the faces of my friends when I gift them one of these pieces.

Stu

[George Guadiane]

In general, I think a BIG part of pricing is the artist's expectation and who they run with. If your customer base is comprised of people who think nothing of spending $100/200 per person for dinner on a regular basis, you HAVE TO put a serious price tag on your work in order to be taken seriously...
Someone mentioned sports players... They are mostly marketing, not value. Most sports would be plenty exciting if the big money players all went home. Look at March Madness for instance.

When you DO get down to the level of HYPER critical about wood selection, form, finish, uniqueness of design, etc, of course the great ones will rise to the top and among those, there will be the financially gifted ones who will realize their situation and keep asking bigger and bigger prices till the sales stop.

I think that most of the talented "unknowns" would just work harder and make more pieces if demand increased. The smart ones will raise their prices and keep the level of quality up. Art has to be made with love (or hate, I suppose). It can't (IMHO) be made just for the money or you end up with stuff like mid to late Picasso. I liked his EARLY work, it showed his understanding of and connection to finesse and form. After he had more commissions than time (again, in my opinion), his work degenerated.

One guy that I think has found a unique and personal confluence of concept, design, materials, process and craftsmanship is Andy DiPetro... Now he didn't invent anything, but he selected a number of elements and applied them in a unique and personal way. He is one of us who I could see becoming "one of them." Having met him, I also imagine he'll stay a regular guy no matter how successful his work becomes.

He's certainly not the only one, but the first (and finest - IMO) one that comes to mind.

[Joe Meirhaeghe]

Glenn
I may have miss understood your point.
Yes I agree that there are a lot of UNKNOWN Artist whos work could compete with the Big Name Artist in all forms of Art.. Let's all remember that Art is very Subjective.
Maybe a lot of the sucess is in actual drive & desire to susceed. I know a lot of artist who are quite happy being unknown.

Joe,

Well now you really got MY feathers ruffled !!

What in the world did I say to get your feathers so ruffled up ?

I never tried to insult anyone or insinuate their work was not worth the prices they asked ! If the artist I mentioned or any other can ask a million dollars for a piece and someone wants to pay it then good for them. Do I wish I could do that ? Heck yea I wish I could. Do have any hard feelings toward them ? ABSOLUTELY NOT. If anything I would have to say that in some ways I admire them.

I understand the their art is their lively hood and that being the case it stands to reason they would have a lot of time and effort invested in their work. I'm not just talking about wood turners but artist of every kind.

Joe, I think you took my question in a spirit in which it was not intended. I simply asked "What do they know that we don't?" You cant say it's attention to detail because I as well as everyone on SMC already knows that. You can't say it's paying you dues because we all know that too. You can't say it's an investment of their time and money because we all already know that also. Everyone knows that if your going to ask those prices you better have the quality to back it up. So again what do they know that we don't?

I just wondered what they did to be as successful as they are that other talented but unknown wood turners and artist have not done.

Joe, you should go groom your feathers and Ill go groom mine.

GT

[Richard Madison]

Maybe a lot of the sucess is in actual drive & desire to susceed.

I think you nailed it there Joe. It is not enough to work hard at doing better and better work. Lots of us do that. Is is also necessary to work hard at all the other aspects of becoming a known and respected artist. This requires time, energy, endurance, travel, dedication, financial investment, etc. that some of us are unable (for whatever reasons) to apply to the task.

[Mary Thompson]

Which of the "woodturning artists" actually make a living from their artwork alone? Don't most of them have a spouse that works or have a family inheritance? Don't most of them I see in the catalogs make money selling their books, DVD's, and teaching? In other words their product either art or utility in itself wasn't making them a living.

I would guess that most (not all) bowls and hollow forms sold by the mainstream wood turners are sold to other "want to be" wood turners at "great prices" that are much less than their items are priced for in the galleries.

Does any counterfeiting take place in woodturning like with paintings and violins?

[Wally Dickerman]

Back in the late 80's I got to know a few of the "Big Hat" turners. When you demo at places like Provo and AAW you get to rub shoulders with a bunch of well known turners. I decided that I wanted to try be one of them. Not for the money (none of them were getting rich from turning) but for the recognition. I had retired in 1986, so I had some income. Then I discovered how much time and effort and dedication I would have to put into it. I decided that it wasn't worth it.

If you visit the instant galley at one of the big symposiums you'll find that there are lots of unknowns out there that are turning out stuff that is as good and often better than many of the big names.

I think that most of the very pricey stuff is sold to collectors who buy because of who made it. At a recent AAW symposium there was a piece on display which had been started by Frank Sudol before he died. Binh Pho finished the piece, adding his touch to that of Frank's. It was placed in the auction and it sold for $30,000. The bidders were known collectors.

Wally

[Joe Meirhaeghe]

Thank You Wally for your input on this.
Everyone here respects your exeriense & opinions.
All of us here know that you could have eaisly been one of the Big Names should you have chosen to.

Back in the late 80's I got to know a few of the "Big Hat" turners. When you demo at places like Provo and AAW you get to rub shoulders with a bunch of well known turners. I decided that I wanted to try be one of them. Not for the money (none of them were getting rich from turning) but for the recognition. Then I discovered how much time and effort and dedication I would have to put into it. I decided that it wasn't worth it.

If you visit the instant galley at one of the big symposiums you'll find that there are lots of unknowns out there that are turning out stuff that is as good and often better than many of the big names.

I think that most of the very pricey stuff is sold to collectors who buy because of who made it. At a recent AAW symposium there was a piece on display which had been started by Frank Sudol before he died. Binh Pho finished the piece, adding his touch to that of Frank's. It was placed in the auction and it sold for $30,000. The bidders were known collectors.

Wally

[Mike Minto]

Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder (payer); but now my ears hurt. Stop yelling. :mad:

[Jeff Nicol]

Like has been said a little bit, is that whoever buys your works and shares them with others who may be in the same circles such as Oprah Wifrey or any other huge puplic figure the chance of being able to comand high prices will appear over night. I have some of my works in collections all over the world but I do not command high prices, as they may or may not be seen by someone who is a high end collector of art objects. It does take time for most all that become well known or famous, but it could happen by accident at any moment anywhere, so always be prepared to accept the praise or fame and fortune with humility and modesty, it could be fleeting or forever. But be happy with what you produce and what you recieve for it. Be it money or the tear filled eyes of a happy gift receipient from your hands to theirs.

No stress to impress,

Jeff

[George Guadiane]

Like has been said a little bit, is that whoever buys your works and shares them with others who may be in the same circles such as Oprah Wifrey or any other huge puplic figure the chance of being able to comand high prices will appear over night. I have some of my works in collections all over the world but I do not command high prices, as they may or may not be seen by someone who is a high end collector of art objects. It does take time for most all that become well known or famous, but it could happen by accident at any moment anywhere, so always be prepared to accept the praise or fame and fortune with humility and modesty, it could be fleeting or forever. But be happy with what you produce and what you recieve for it. Be it money or the tear filled eyes of a happy gift receipient from your hands to theirs.

No stress to impress,

Jeff

Well Said - and true

[Toney Robertson]

so always be prepared to accept the praise or fame and fortune.

Jeff

Not to mention the chicks. I have heard that those turner groupies are hot!!! :D

Toney

[John Keeton]

I have watched this thread with interest - so many good comments. In my long bowl turning career of nearly four months now:D, I have soaked up information like a sponge - wherever I could find it. Much of it came from the creek and through many of the comments on my postings. I have looked at turnings in online galleries, books, DVDs, and I have pushed myself to learn new processes and cuts.

At some point, I think many of us become complacent and satisfied with the fun of woodturning, and stop learning. For most of us, that is probably fine, and exactly where we wanted to be. The skills learned permit us to turn bowls for family, friends, sell a few, and enjoy every curl that comes from them.

But, I think perhaps the "masters" never lose that zeal to learn and improve. Possibly, they are never satisfied with their end result, and continue to strive for even greater heights of skill and knowledge - pushing new frontiers with various processes and methods. This, combined with a God given talent, may set them apart from so many of us.

One does wonder, however, if they ever achieve the warm satisfaction of simply looking at a piece with the ultimate pride of "I did my best on that one." Truly, they may never be able to say "I did my best," because they know it isn't true.

I have never met or known a "master" other than communicating with a few on SMC that I think approach that level. So, this is pure conjecture on my part. Heck, until I finally joined a woodturning club, I had never met anyone that turned!!:eek:

My hope is to get to the level of some of you. There are some extremely talented folks on this forum, and perhaps as Jeff has noted, ultimately fate separates the masters from the rest.

[Jeff Nicol]

I have watched this thread with interest - so many good comments. In my long bowl turning career of nearly four months now:D, I have soaked up information like a sponge - wherever I could find it. Much of it came from the creek and through many of the comments on my postings. I have looked at turnings in online galleries, books, DVDs, and I have pushed myself to learn new processes and cuts.

At some point, I think many of us become complacent and satisfied with the fun of woodturning, and stop learning. For most of us, that is probably fine, and exactly where we wanted to be. The skills learned permit us to turn bowls for family, friends, sell a few, and enjoy every curl that comes from them.

But, I think perhaps the "masters" never lose that zeal to learn and improve. Possibly, they are never satisfied with their end result, and continue to strive for even greater heights of skill and knowledge - pushing new frontiers with various processes and methods. This, combined with a God given talent, may set them apart from so many of us.

One does wonder, however, if they ever achieve the warm satisfaction of simply looking at a piece with the ultimate pride of "I did my best on that one." Truly, they may never be able to say "I did my best," because they know it isn't true.

I have never met or known a "master" other than communicating with a few on SMC that I think approach that level. So, this is pure conjecture on my part. Heck, until I finally joined a woodturning club, I had never met anyone that turned!!:eek:

My hope is to get to the level of some of you. There are some extremely talented folks on this forum, and perhaps as Jeff has noted, ultimately fate separates the masters from the rest.
John, With your natural abilities and attention for detail, you could be on your way to the world of the "Elite". But as you said, and I believe it and live it every day when you think you have reached the top there is nowhere to go but down. So by staying humble and always believeing there is more to learn and new techniques developed every day for us to learn, that is what drives everyone on to become better at what they do. I could become the best darn sawdust sweeper in the world if I keep at it!

Have fun all !

Jef

[Roland Martin]

John, With your natural abilities and attention for detail, you could be on your way to the world of the "Elite". But as you said, and I believe it and live it every day when you think you have reached the top there is nowhere to go but down. So by staying humble and always believeing there is more to learn and new techniques developed every day for us to learn, that is what drives everyone on to become better at what they do. I could become the best darn sawdust sweeper in the world if I keep at it!

Have fun all !

Jef

Hey Jeff, you're going to have to keep sharpening your sweeping skills, I can push sawdust around like you would'nt believe:D!!