Do I want to go Tankless?

[Lori Kleinberg]

Since the announcement of the appliance rebates, my husband and I were thinking about getting a tankless water heater system. We don't really have any problems with
current system (tank) other then it being about 10 years old and it is in my workshop (garage). We do have a water softener hooked up, I don't know if that effects anything.

So have you checked into this at all? Does anyone have a tankless system? Are you happy with it? All opinions and suggestions appreciated.

We were also thinking about changing our dishwasher too, as long as there are rebates. It is also 10 years old and so loud :(. It was probably the cheapest unit the builder
could find :mad:. Anyone have a really good dishwasher? It is usually just the 2 of us, so we run it about every other day unless we entertain. My husband also insists on
prewashing :eek: which absolutely drives me nuts especially since I try to be GREEN (key word: trying)

[David Prince]

What kind of volume and pressure do you have coming out of your service? You would have to calculate a tankless system to be able to keep up. Many cannot even keep up with a shower. A whole house system is difficult. Are you thinking electric or gas? If electric, do you have enough service to power the unit(s).

My experience is that they work well for small areas or lower volumes and pressures, but fall short for a whole house and family.

Multiple units could help.

[Matt Meiser]

We looked into it and decided to stick with a tank type. However we have a high-efficiency tank type that uses a power vent and and PVC exhaust so the savings isn't as great. I hear conflicting stories on how well they meet demand and some negative comments on required maintenance and longevity.

We've probably saved more money on hot water by not using hot water for laundry than anything--with no ill effects on our clothes (in other words stains still come out just fine.)

[Jay Jolliffe]

I installed a Rennai gas tankless water heater 2 1/2 yrs ago and have no problems with it. It's just the two of us and it hasn't run out of hot water yet. My wife likes baths in a med. tub & I like showers. We can take a long shower & never has it gone cold. Stays at one temperature that we set it at. Doesn't use that much propane either. We use an oil fired water heater by Bock for our radiant heat & it did heat the domestic also. But we couldn't see spending the money in the summer for it to heat up 80 or so gallons of water when we weren't using it so I installed the tankless.BTW the bock is a piece of S***. WE have changed it with a new on 1 1/2yrs into the warranty. It rotted out. So we installed another & that ones on it's way out.So yes we like the tankless & will never heat our water another way.....Sorry for being so long:)

[Mitchell Andrus]

We looked into it and decided to stick with a tank type. However we have a high-efficiency tank type that uses a power vent and and PVC exhaust so the savings isn't as great. I hear conflicting stories on how well they meet demand and some negative comments on required maintenance and longevity.

We've probably saved more money on hot water by not using hot water for laundry than anything--with no ill effects on our clothes (in other words stains still come out just fine.)

+1 on all Matt said. I looked into one stayed with a basic tank. Tankless models are too much like my high efficiency furnace which needs fiddling and parts all winter. On my furnace the induced draft blower alone cost $450.00, and I'm on my 4th in 19 years.... I'm on my 2nd control board.
.

[Tom Godley]

With a properly designed system they work fine -- you will need to do a little research to understand how they operate.

The more common fixed output units are more difficult to integrate into the normal home and the variable output units are more expensive and complicated.


IMO the Kitchen Aid dishwashers are the best -- I have a Bosch and an Asko also and I like the Kitchen Aid better. The european units do not power-dry the dishes and have an extremely long cycle time. All the better units are quiet -- the top KA comes with both a stainless and a less expensive plastic tub depending on what you want to spend.

[Robert Alexander]

With a properly designed system they work fine -- you will need to do a little research to understand how they operate.

I had a Noritz tankless water heater put in last month. And we are very happy with it. Our old water heater was put in in 1987, and it was getting time to replace it. I had 3 companies come out to give us bids and information on their tankless water heaters. One company did not do any design work to properly size our system needs. the other company wanted to put in the biggest unit they had along with putting in larger gas piping $$$. The third company did things the right way. They measured the temprature of the water coming in to the house, then did measurements of the length of hot water lines in the house and measured the temprature of the hot water coming out of all the hot water faucets we use at the same time to get the maximum gallons per minute of hot water needed. We went with that company.
Take time to get the right information before calling a water heater contractor. And find a company who knows the ins and outs of tankless heaters. Lots of water heater contractor companies sell tankless heaters, but not as many know how to properly size the units for a house.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[Dan Mages]

I installed a Bosch in my old house and it worked perfectly for my modest needs. The efficiency was great. My estimated gas reading on the bill during the summer was often higher than the actual reading the next month.

[Mark Engel]

We had a Takagi TK2 tankless unit (LP Gas) in our last house in NH. I installed it myself. Never had any problems with it in the 6 or so years we had it.

When I installed it I also added an outdoor faucet (sillcock) that I could switch between hot or cold so I could use hot water to rinse the salt off of our vehicles in the winter.

It takes a little longer to get hot water to any faucet in the house, but you never run out. My SIL stayed with us for a few days when she lost power in her apartment, along with her 4 teen-aged kids. Those kids took some LOOOOONG showers. But there was always hot water for the next person.

Now dishwashers. We upgraded the dishwasher the builder had installed in this house with a Whirlpool Gold. It holds a lot of dishes. The cycle time is quite a bit longer than our old dishwasher but it is very quiet. The only thing you can really here is the water when it is filling.

[Lori Kleinberg]

Thank you for the replys in regards to the tankless system. I think there is more to it then we care to handle right now.

As far as dishwashers go, I think we are leaning towards a Bosch we saw at Lowes. They have 10% off, free delivery and installation and hopefully a $125 rebate from the state. Oh yeah, 0 interest for 12 months.

[David Prince]

They measured the temprature of the water coming in to the house, then did measurements of the length of hot water lines in the house and measured the temperature of the hot water coming out of all the hot water faucets we use at the same time to get the maximum gallons per minute of hot water needed.

This is a very important point also! The temperature of the water from your source! If the water is too cool coming into your house, the tankless may not be able to get it hot enough.

[Colin Giersberg]

Check with your utility company (electric or water dept.), they may sell a Rinnai or comparable tankless unit for a lot less than going through a certified dealer. Our city utility will sell us a Rinnai 7gpm unit for $800. Since we need a gas line run to the location where we want the unit, we wont save any money on the cost of that, but we are still saving on the unit.

Regards, Colin

[Matt Meiser]

This is a very important point also! The temperature of the water from your source! If the water is too cool coming into your house, the tankless may not be able to get it hot enough.

So what's too cold? Our well water is about 52 degrees all year.

[Jim Becker]

I put a gas tankless system in our addition two years ago. I absolutely love it. While it was certainly more expensive to install due to the venting, "endless" hot water and zero energy use when not using it does the job for me. When the tank type heater "goes" in the old part of the house, it will also be replaced by tankless, although for that, I'll have to do electric due to the impossibility of proper venting there.

[David Prince]

http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/

This gives a pretty good idea of what a person should take into consideration if thinking about going tankless.

[Ben Franz]

In many (most?) cases, the tankless heaters require both a larger gas/propane supply pipe and a larger flue to vent the exhaust. This was the main reason I decided to stick with the tank style. There have been articles in Fine Homebuilding and Journal of Light Construction over the last several years. One article by a reputable plumber was an in depth discussion about how he installs these systems with an auxillary tank. I couldn't stop laughing long enough to actually read the article to find out if it was serious.

[Bryan Morgan]

Since the announcement of the appliance rebates, my husband and I were thinking about getting a tankless water heater system. We don't really have any problems with
current system (tank) other then it being about 10 years old and it is in my workshop (garage). We do have a water softener hooked up, I don't know if that effects anything.

So have you checked into this at all? Does anyone have a tankless system? Are you happy with it? All opinions and suggestions appreciated.

We were also thinking about changing our dishwasher too, as long as there are rebates. It is also 10 years old and so loud :(. It was probably the cheapest unit the builder
could find :mad:. Anyone have a really good dishwasher? It is usually just the 2 of us, so we run it about every other day unless we entertain. My husband also insists on
prewashing :eek: which absolutely drives me nuts especially since I try to be GREEN (key word: trying)


I thought about this recently too... I don't care about being "green" at all, I am just trying to save some cash from heating. But, since my gas bill isn't more than $30 or so I don't know how much I'd actually save after factoring in the cost of the unit with installation (quoted about $2000 for my house).

Also, the #1 reason I didn't go tankless is that theres 40 gallons of fresh water sitting there. Given the state of the country and all these earthquakes we've been having lately, I think that water might come in handy.

That said, my friend switched his out for a tankless about a year ago and his family likes it alot. They got some gizmos that go in the bathroom that also heat the water for the sinks.

[Jim Tobias]

This has been debated on this forum before. My vote says it is absolutely worth it to switch to tankless. It may be difficult if you are trying to install yourself, but if you have a trustworthy HVAC/Plumbing company, it is fairly simple. Nver run out of hot water if you size the tankless model correctly. My wife and I have had all of my relatives(20) here for Labor Day Weekend and we have showered, washed dishes, clothes, etc nonstop and never ran out of hot water.
+1 on Rinnai tankless
Jim

[Lori Kleinberg]

Oh man, you guys have given me more info then I think I wanted :eek:. Seriously this has been great. Where I live there is no such thing as cold ground water (at least
not 10 months out of the year) For that period of time there is no way to get cold water out of the tap. We spoke with 2 different people about the gas requirements,
how knowledgeable they really are, I don't know, but both said we would have to run new gas lines (dedicated 3/4") from the main. That in itself, I think, is a major
price barrier not to mention the additional venting required.
My hubby and I agree that we will need alot more info before making a definite decision, but you guys have given us a great foundation to work with.

I believe we will stick with upgrading the kitchen appliances, one at a time. Thanks to you guys (see "oven went kaput") the oven will probably be the last to be replaced.
Doesn't anybody want to talk about dishwashers :rolleyes:? Maybe I should start another thread about that.
We will also be needing to replace all the windows in the house soon (maybe another year, two at most), and I hate my sliding glass door and would like to put a french
door in. I think we will have enough to do for a while.

[Chris Kennedy]

I've considered tankless, and my take on it is that as a retrofit, it can be a bit of a hit or miss. If your house is designed for it from the outset, they can be quite good. Installing one as a booster or in an addition may also make sense. Removing the tank from your garage may not make sense.

As for dishwashers, we bought a Bosch a couple of years ago and love how quiet it is. We couldn't watch television and run the dishwasher before, and now we can. It is a little slower than other models, but there are only three of us, so it isn't that big a deal unless we have a lot of people staying with us.

Cheers,

Chris

[Alan Trout]

I have had a Seisco electric tankless for several years in my home. It works very well and I would do it again in a heartbeat. But electric units take more planning because of the service requirements. I have a sub-panel dedicated just to the water heater with four 30Amp breakers with number 8 copper circuits to the unit as they recommend.

I have gas in the home but I had no good way to vent. At the time most of the gas units had to some horizontal run in the vent system and there was no way for me to do that. Also the way the Seisco units are designed you do not have to use a temperature and pressure relief valve in the system. Also the Seisco units are very small my RA28 is probably 14"x14"X6" so it was very easy to place.

Performance is very good but the key is how much temperature rise you need and how you use hot water. Even in the winter our water rarely gets below 65 degrees so to get the water to 110 degrees does not take much rise. On my system I can run two fixtures in the house such as two shower heads full blast and it keeps up without a problem. You learn to mix very little cold water with showers or baths but it is also great for safety of small children because it is impossible to scald someone in 110 degree water.

The electrics are viable option in my opinion and can be every bit as efficient as the gas units especially with the proper planning and design.

[Al Willits]

Do a search on tankless and you'll find several posts, just make sure to consider all the costs before you have one installed, Bosch says (they make several brands of them) every two years to have a tech come rebuilt/inspect theirs.

fwiw I work where we service them, out of appox 375 service techs none have one where a choice is availible.

Check on venting, gas lines required, service availibility, warrt, etc.

Dishwasher?
Pick one that fits your dishes and how you like to use them.
Quiet is just insulation, I can make almost any cheap unit quiet, two most popular brands with our techs seem to be Bosch and Whirlpool.

Whirlpool makes several different brand names, including Kitchenaid and some sears units.

Our choice was a Kitchenaid, same as Whirlpool, but it was on sale..:D

Al

[Jim O'Dell]

I read some a few years ago about tankless. At that time, if you had gas, it probably made sense. If you had electric, they weren't very efficient, and had more maintenance issues. Maybe that has changed some now? We have an all electric house unfortunately, with no gas pipes in the area. I prefer not to have a propane tank, and there's not a good place to put one anyway. Funny we get a small royalty check from a gas well each month!! :D:D
We got a new dishwasher a year ago Christmas. We got the Maytag unit. LOML wanted the silverware to be on the door because that's what she is used to. This was the only one of the major brands, at least in our price range of 5-600 that had it. It does a very good job, and is super quiet. But then the 300.00 unit we got at our last house, GE brand, was very quiet also.
I'd say of the major brands, find the one with the features you want. Jim.

[Tom Godley]

The temp of the water does not matter -- you can size them accordingly. When the incoming water temp changes dramatically from summer to winter -- that is when you can have problems. You must size the unit for the coldest water at a given flow and if the unit has a static output it will be oversized and cycle in the summer.

The whole point is to eliminate standby loss and extend output. So if you have a weekend house or a house at the beach that you only use on the weekends and then require a lot of hot water -- they are worth trying a switch out.

But the saving for a small family using the normal amount of hot water everyday is often less than the cost of the switch. Differing fuel costs and rebates can obviously affect this.

They are also great when you put in an addition. Say you add a master bath with a big tub. Using an instant unit eliminate the long water run from the current system. The standby loss from the over sized storage tank required for the infrequently used tub is eliminated. And they are small and easy to find a place for.

[Neal Clayton]

I thought about this recently too... I don't care about being "green" at all, I am just trying to save some cash from heating. But, since my gas bill isn't more than $30 or so I don't know how much I'd actually save after factoring in the cost of the unit with installation (quoted about $2000 for my house).

Also, the #1 reason I didn't go tankless is that theres 40 gallons of fresh water sitting there. Given the state of the country and all these earthquakes we've been having lately, I think that water might come in handy.

That said, my friend switched his out for a tankless about a year ago and his family likes it alot. They got some gizmos that go in the bathroom that also heat the water for the sinks.

the whole "saving money from buying this" rarely if ever works out to be the case.

think about how long it'd take you to get 2000 dollars back from a 30 dollar a month gas bill.

the only one saving is the guy you buy the thing from, putting some of that 2000 into his savings account.

that said, for the purposes of persistent hot water, i think they're great. depends on whether or not that's worth the money to you.

[Michael Weber]

Jim, since you live in an all electric home you may want to check out the new heat pump water heaters available now. Very efficient compared to an standard electric models.

[Pat Germain]

I have a Bosch and an Asko also and I like the Kitchen Aid better. The european units do not power-dry the dishes and have an extremely long cycle time.

I've been running a Bosch dishwasher for about six years and I love it. FYI, Bosch dishwashers do "power dry" the dishes. You just have to turn this feature on. Since electricity is crazy expensive in Germany, the "heated dry" feature on a Bosch dishwasher is OFF by default. You simply look in the instruction manual which tells you how to set it to ON.

I agree the cycle time is kinda long. But it's so quiet, I typically can't even hear it running. And it does a great job at getting everything clean without having to pre-wash anything. Strangely, it does not have a food grinder. Yet, there's almost never anything left in the strainer.

[Jim O'Dell]

Jim, since you live in an all electric home you may want to check out the new heat pump water heaters available now. Very efficient compared to an standard electric models.

Interesting! I'll look into it. Thanks!

And to correct my earlier post...Our dishwasher is not a Maytag, it's an Amanna. :o:o:o Washer and dryer is Maytag. Just in case someone goes looking for a Maytag with the silverware basket on the door. :rolleyes: Jim.

[Al Willits]

Interesting! I'll look into it. Thanks!

And to correct my earlier post...Our dishwasher is not a Maytag, it's an Amanna. :o:o:o Washer and dryer is Maytag. Just in case someone goes looking for a Maytag with the silverware basket on the door. :rolleyes: Jim.


I'm betting your Amana is made by Maytag...:D

Al

[Chuck Stewart]

I installed a Rinnai tankless in Sept. of last year and have had no issues, the wife and I love it. The only changes have been lifestyle. The burner will not fire until it registers a significant water demand, so no more trickling the hot say when you want to brush your teeth and want to infuse just a little hot with the cold. My bathroom is next to the laundry room where it is installed so I can hear it fire and know when I'm getting hot water, but the wife's is not but you just have to know to give the valve a good 1/2 to 3/4 turn. Also, I used to turn the hot on and off while while rinsing my shaver to conserve water but I can't do that now because the burner shuts down each time and there's a delay where cold water gets in the line when I crank the hot again. So now I just leave the hot on until I'm done shaving. So yes I'm saving on the gas not having to heat the tank but I know I'm using more water with this system.

[Rob Fisher]

I don't know about the water heaters. I am in the same situation as you, I currently have a gas fired tank water heater that needs replacing. Dunno what we will do.

The dishwasher on the other hand, I can help you with. My wife and I just bought a new Bosch. And it is just awesome! She researched all of them and the Bosch seemed to be the best, it was one of the most dependable brands and required the lest servicing. I don't know the specific model, its one of the higher end, because that's what she wanted. It is super efficient, very quite, it has an internal water softener so the dishes don't usually have water spots. It does have the heated dry and the cycle is just under 2.5 hours. But absolutely no prewashing is required, just scrape the large food particles off of the plate and put it in. It also has a plastic tub that completely covers the underside of the machine, so if it leaks the tub will collect the water and prevent it from damaging the house.

All in all we love this dishwasher and I would buy it again in a heartbeat. It was definitely expensive but as others always say about tools, buy the best you can afford.

Rob

[Tom Godley]

Mine does not have a power dry -- what it does is heat the final rinse. It uses the trapped heat to "dry" the dishes.

For the most part it works - but you must leave the dishes in the unit after it is finished or they will be wet -- this all takes a long time.

My Kitchen Aid is just as quiet - works as well - is incredibly fast - and dries the dishes with a fan. You can also use it to warm up cold dishes for dinner. And it was 1/2 the price of the Bosch.

All of them have ......... thankfully been trouble free

[Pat Germain]

Mine does not have a power dry -- what it does is heat the final rinse. It uses the trapped heat to "dry" the dishes.

This is the method the dishwasher uses by default to save energy. You might check your owner's manual. There should be a way to turn on heated drying. As I said, my Bosch is over six years old and it has this feature.

[Bill Cunningham]

I also installed a Rennai gas tankless water heater two years ago, and simply love it.. You never run out of hot water. I used to have a Oil fired water heater, it would take 52deg well water, and heat the 40 gal tank to 130degF in 17 minutes. That was fast but expensive with the higher Oil Costs. My Rennai uses 1/2 meter of gas a day (about .14 cents incl all taxes and other 'add-ons') which has lowered my yearly water heating bill from over 600.00 to less than $60.00.. If you live in a area with hard water, it 'will' lime up and require cleaning a couple of times a year. Luckly my area is on a lake based water system which is very soft, and we don't even get scale in a kettle, so this thing is perfect for us.. I installed this along with a BIG Carrier heat pump, and a 3 stage Ultra High efficencey gas furnace..My heating/hot water bill went from 2600.00 a year to under 1000 The bill for the system was 14k but I got a little over 5k back in rebates etc.. When we move in a few years, the new house will have a Rennai, and a G.S. heating system..