Who here can boast owning the oldest plane?

[Zach England]

The 100-year-olf jointer thread on the power tool forum got me thinking. Who here has the oldest plane? What about oldest in use? I know there are a lot of late 19th century Stanley and Ohio Tool planes out there, but can anyone boast an 18th century plane? It does not exist unless it has a picture.

[george wilson]

I have owned them,but some collector would always see it and offer good money for it.

I have about 350 carving tools,and a few are 18th.C. Also have an 18th.C. mortising chisel.

[Zach England]

I always hear about plane collectors, and see the websites that sell rare planes for $2k+, but who are these guys? Are they woodworkers? If not, what compels them to collect planes?

[Jim Koepke]

What compels a person to collect coins, first edition books or sewing thimbles?

The same kind of interest drives people to collect planes.

There must be something to the high price of the book: Antique & Collectable Stanley Tools. The low price on Amazon is now at $290.

I have seen pictures of people's collections. Some like to make their home look like an old time hardware store.

I have also been in the home of a person that for all intent and purpose collects planes. He also sells them.

I recently sold a plane that may have been from the 18th century. I have a few old mortise chisels that may be from the 18th century. I have them because they were the ones that were on ebay at the time and I won them at a relatively low price.

Many of my user planes are from the late 19th century. As each year passes, my users that have not come to their centenarian mark becomes less and less. Of course, that does not include planes I acquire to fix up and resell. It also does not include the few planes bought new from Lie-Nielsen.

jim

[Sam Takeuchi]

Really sought after planes don't stop at $2,000. Some of them go $10,000, $20,000 and more. I don't think those people who pay that much are woodworkers, at least they don't get them to use those tools. Just like any serious collector of anything, they may acquire them as kind of investment. I think those highly sought after, high dollar planes are the only kind that really bring large return on investment in foreseeable future. Those of us who pay $30 ~ 400 for a vintage plane wouldn't make a tidy sum except for being extremely lucky and finding an ultra rare plane for $10 and sell it for $20,000 (there was a guy in another forum who did that). But investor/collector and woodworker/collector have different motivation for acquiring vintage and/or rare tools. If acquiring super rare tool to make money, it's better to be a finance wiz than a woodworker.

If you look at the collectors of anything, be it paintings, musical instruments, or anything, collectors themselves don't necessarily have to have knowledge or understand the items. As long as items are appraised and deemed authentic, there is money to be made.

I guess us ordinary woodworkers are somewhat akin to ordinary stamp or coin collectors. It's not about money, but joy of owning/using what we've got.

[george wilson]

I only buy collectible tools when the dealer doesn't know what he has,and sells it at an ordinary price.

[Brian Kent]

I once had a 2002 Buck Brothers Block Plane from Home Depot in its original box, but I accidentally threw it in the trash so no one would gouge their wood with it.

[Chen-Tin Tsai]

I once had a 2002 Buck Brothers Block Plane from Home Depot in its original box, but I accidentally threw it in the trash so no one would gouge their wood with it.

Hey, I think I have one of those! :D

[Tony Shea]

I once had a 2002 Buck Brothers Block Plane from Home Depot in its original box, but I accidentally threw it in the trash so no one would gouge their wood with it.

I just went over to a friends' house and he just recently had purchased one of those and showed it to me in excitement. He was excited about his first plane purchase and thought he'd show it to me. Boy what a beautiful peice of equipment those are. I talked him into putting it on display outside on an old saw horse with bullet holes in it. Went inside and grabbed his Beretta 9mm and shot the hell out of it. But this only was allowed in a promise that I'd go home and grab him one of my older Stanley 60 1/2 I just tuned up. He was shocked to see the difference in quality. I just can't see where they could possibly sell enough of this to keep them on the shelves. And if the do how can people enjoy using them. What a huge fall in quality that Buck Bro.s tools have seen in about a century. I recently found a couple older Buck Bro.s chisels that are just excellent and really enjoy using them. Sorry bout going off topic here.

[Larry Williams]

... an 18th century plane?...

How many are you looking for? How early in the 18th Century? American or British?

http://www.planemaker.com/photos/wooding1.jpg

[David Gendron]

Is this a user, that you actualy use? I'm ure you have a few older one that are kiking around;)

[george wilson]

You win,Larry !!

[Larry Williams]

No, we don't use it and it's probably the oldest we have. It's hard to say exactly because some don't have maker's marks.

That one is from the early 18th Century and is a nice crisp Robert Wooding of which I'm particularly fond. It's from a time when the scholars who study these things suggest that Britain's early plane makers were copying Dutch planes. Yet this plane has sophisticated features that were never incorporated into any Continental planes. In short, it's proof that British planes developed independently of the Continental planes and represent a solid British woodworking heritage.

I think planes from that time represent the best that plane making has ever had to offer. It's too bad planes began their long decline about 1750 with the introduction of the double iron.

[harry strasil]

Some of my Woodies have only a single iron, do they qualify then?

[Leigh Betsch]

I'm convinced that you don't own planes but rather they own you. To that end my oldest is 52 years old.

[Jim Koepke]

I just can't see where they could possibly sell enough of this to keep them on the shelves.

At sometimes it seems this may be the idea. If there is junk on the shelves that people do not buy, then the store looks well stocked but they do not need to reorder, hence no need for stock clerks.

A woman in a store once replied to my question about a product's availability once, "we have had so much trouble with that selling so much that we can't keep it in stock. We are thinking of not carrying them any more." It seemed to make perfect sense to her. Many years later my education in corporate retailing had it making sense to me. That is why my career did not stay in retailing for long.

Maybe we should drift back to the original topic eh?

jim

[lowell holmes]

I agree, my oldest is a type 7 #5 Stanley (110+ years) that stays in a display case. I feel guilty about not using it.

This doesn't compare with the old planes :)

[steve swantee]

My oldest is a type 2 Stanley No7 (1869-1872).

Steve

[greg Forster]

a couple of English contenders: (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=147732&d=1270925485)


The 2 planes compared to a H.Wetherell(son)molding plane, circa 1800(probably English import for re-sale)


Next, possibly very early 1700s, both ends have been shot(cut-off)

Next, no makers mark, but still at 10 1/2" length

Next, preceding plane showing relief to front edge of wedge mortise

These two planes show features for early English planes, but without maker's marks we are speculating on their age

[Mark Wyatt]

Buy this plane at auction next weekend and you can brag that you have both an old and expensive plane!

http://www.mjdtools.com/auction/graphics/s10/a230738.htm

If you ever get a chance to go to the Martin J Donelly tool auctions, you will find it well worth your while. Great chance to handle some beautiful old tools and talk to others who respect them.

[Joe Cunningham]

Can't compete with Larry's, but I have a nice side bead from J. Denison just down the road from my house, in 'Saybrook' CT. I am not sure of the date, but the maker produced planes from 1840-1876 based on what I could discover.

Looks pretty unused, perhaps because the wedge did not seat well to keep the blade in place. I kept the original wedge, but made a replacement. I use it on many projects and it takes some nice shavings and leaves a smooth surface. Very nice working plane, and other than honing the blade and making the replacement wedge, needed no other fettling.

147903

[Jim Koepke]

I agree, my oldest is a type 7 #5 Stanley (110+ years) that stays in a display case. I feel guilty about not using it.

This doesn't compare with the old planes :)

Do you have other #5s that make this one unneeded?

I fixed up a type 7 #7 that got me to sell my type 11 #7.
My #8 is a type 6a.
One of my best gloats was a type 6 #4-1/2. I sold off all my #4s except 2 type 6s.
One of my #6s is a type 4 the other is a type 9. I have thought of selling the type 9, but the shipping cost may be more than what someone wants to pay. So until one has to hasta la buy bye, one is set for removing material and one is set to finesse material.

Many of these planes will not sell for as much as a type 11 or a SW era plane. But when they are carefully fettled, they will work wood every bit as well. Isn't that what it is all about?


My oldest is a type 2 Stanley No7 (1869-1872).

Steve

Do you give it regular use?

jim

[Matt Ranum]

Best I can do is a type 2 #2, but it isn't usable as its missing some parts.

[Gary Roberts]

Do books count? My earliest is Moxon's Mechanick Exercises, 1703. A bunch of other 18th C books but most 1730-1790's. At least he does talk about planes.

One reprint of a Dutch book on shipbuilding. The original is 1640 something, the reprint, 1920ish. I guess that wouldn't count.

As for tools, I bow to Larry Williams when it comes to wooden planes for the early stuff. I think my earliest are late 18th C British and maybe a smattering of New England makers. Nothing special, just nice looking planes. Unless I stumble across something at a flea market, the prices are generally out of my bottom feeder league.

[lowell holmes]

No, I think it will stay in my case, or I'm thinking of moving it to the bench.:)

I also have a type 9 #4 that is a total wreck. The nice tote is broken, no japaning, rust on all surfaces, and no iron or breaker. I'm thinking about bead blasting it to get the rust off, black rustoleum for the japaning and putting it back into service.

[Stephen Shepherd]

My oldest is a John Green moving filester with replacement fence and depth stop.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/shepherd1857/IOHNGREEN.jpg

Late 18th century.

Stephen

[steve swantee]

Hi Jim, yes it does see some use, but not as much as my No8. Right now though the iron needs to be sharpend desperately. I especially like the prelaterals, but I like the higher and more forward cheeks on the type 2. I think it's my favorite-don't tell the others.

Steve

[harry strasil]

Metal Planes - Type 2 Stanley 45 - 1886-1887
Woodies - unknown - never looked at the makers and have no idea of dates, I just use them.
I do have a full set of transitional users, they started producing them in 1869.

[David Weaver]

Not sure what my oldest plane is. Might have a moulding plane that's really old, but haven't looked at them since watching Larry Williams' video about planes of different periods and how they were made (in terms of the hand work on them).

Have a woody try plane that could be any age, not sure how old, but it's got an old butcher double iron in it. Could be 100 years old, could be 150 or more - it's marked "Lancaster", but I don't see any other marks on it.

Also have a bailey of boston hollow face shave that I would guess is 1850s or 1860s, but not sure. it's in plenty good enough shape to use, and I've used it a couple of times. No japanning at all on it, but no real rust, either - just dark metal.

I could never have anything so old as to be valuable, because I would use it no matter what it was. the going rate for something like that usually keeps it out of my hands, anyway.

[Dean Lapinel]

Some of my Woodies have only a single iron, do they qualify then?

Is this a Tiger Woods joke? :)

[Gary Roberts]

Stephen... is that a spoon gouge I see in the background?

Gary

[Stephen Shepherd]

Gary,

No, that is the end pad of my holdfast, holding a piece of wood that became a square wooden eating dish. I just put the plane on the board when I took the picture a while back.

Stephen

[James Carmichael]

100 years wouldn't make the first cut (no pun intended) in an oldest hand plane competition, as they date to the Roman Empire.

[Vince Brytus]

My oldest is a Robert Wooding. I think he was in business from 1706 to 1728.

[David Keller NC]

I supose one would have to make the distinction "what's the oldest plane that you have that you use" vs. "what's the oldest plane that you have that you don't". I've a number of John Green, I. Sym, B. Frogatt and other british mid to late 18th century makers that are in regular use in my shop; 2 planes by 18th century American makers that I wouldn't dream of putting to use (they are far more rare and valuable than British makers from the same period), and one American crown-molding plane that is at latest a mid-18th century and likely considerably older because it's constructed of yellow birch and has a "hammer" tote in an off-set configuration.

[Tony Shea]

Can't compete with Larry's, but I have a nice side bead from J. Denison just down the road from my house, in 'Saybrook' CT. I am not sure of the date, but the maker produced planes from 1840-1876 based on what I could discover.

Looks pretty unused, perhaps because the wedge did not seat well to keep the blade in place. I kept the original wedge, but made a replacement. I use it on many projects and it takes some nice shavings and leaves a smooth surface. Very nice working plane, and other than honing the blade and making the replacement wedge, needed no other fettling.

Although that's def not the oldest Joe, that is in some seriously good shape. It's probably one of the nicest (meaning no wear) looking wooden planes I've ever seen. Looks almost brand new. I bet with the new wedge it works wonderfully. Great find and am glad to see you aren't affraid to put it to good use.

[Joe Cunningham]

Although that's def not the oldest Joe, that is in some seriously good shape. It's probably one of the nicest (meaning no wear) looking wooden planes I've ever seen. Looks almost brand new. I bet with the new wedge it works wonderfully. Great find and am glad to see you aren't affraid to put it to good use.

Thanks! I got it off 'that' auction site no less. The flash makes it look darker than it appears, it is almost a light cream color in person.

I suspect the wedge caused previous owners too many problems, so it just sat in the bottom of a tool chest. If I recall that might have been part of the description on the auction site--that it was 'found in the bottom of a tool chest'.

I'm of the 'tools are made for using' camp. Denison planes are pretty plentiful, so I don't feel too bad using it.

[James Harvey]

The ancient Romans made hand planes. Probably won't find one of those as a "worker" in anybodys shop though.

I have two wooden try planes about 150 years old but they are not in good enough condition to use.

[Dale Murray]

I guess this thread is as good as any to introduce myself and mention I have a few old tools.

I was virtually raised in a wood shop but unfortunately I no longer have access to one after relocating to the Chicago area. I have, however, decided I can no longer live without creating and recently decided to learn hand tool method and thus found this forum. My immediate goal is to get a good starter set of wood planes and hand saws - used ones that will require some TLC.

I do have quite a few antique tools in my house but most are not for use. My grandfather late in life began buying and selling antique tools, I was directed by him to sell them when he passed. He loved them but also saw them as investments to be sold to provide for my grandmother, thankfully he provided well and not all "needed" to be sold.

http://dale-murray.com/tools/image/070403-01.jpg
Stanley Shoe-buckle plane, this is the version produced for about 6 months prior to the design change. This and my Sheffield brace are my favorites visually, they both posses a beauty and grace you rarely find in tools today.

http://dale-murray.com/tools/image/070403-03.jpg

http://dale-murray.com/tools/image/070403-09.jpg

http://dale-murray.com/tools/image/070403-19.jpg

http://dale-murray.com/tools/image/070403-30.jpg

http://www.dale-murray.com/web/Sheffield_Brace_sm.jpg
I used this brace with my auger bits to drill out the bottom of my Christmas tree last year, my electric drill was at a friends.

A few others can be seen here: http://dale-murray.com/tools/

I look forward to learning from all of you.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Dale-those are some gorgeous tools, especially the beading tool. Welcome to the Creek!
My oldest tools don't quite compete with some of the ones in this thread, but I have 4 planes that are in the 160+ year range. Each has seen use, and will see more:D

[Mel Miller]

Hi Dale: I'm fairly new to this forum myself and am a collector. I collect the older metal body "Patented" planes, so don't stand a chance of having the oldest plane, but here are some of my favorites.
These are all pre Civil War planes, so are very early in the manufacture of planes in the US.
First is a scarce Evans patent rabbet circular plane.
Next is an L. Bailey split frame plane.
Last is a Holly patent, notice the "corrugations".

Mel

[Bruce Haugen]

Hi, Steve,
I have a type 2 #7, too, although I replaced the original iron with a Hock blade. The original blade is worn down to less than 1/2" from the edge to the adjuster slot. It's my favorite jointer, and I use it all the time.

[Jim Koepke]

Dale,

Welcome to the Creek. I always liked the looks of the shoe buckle plane. I like to be able to use my planes so I will likely never own one. If one comes my way, it will likely be put aside until my desire or need to have some money comes along.

The photos on your web site are a joy to view.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I can't compete in this group. Probably my oldest plane is a large JT Brown (script signature) single iron jointer, 1820-1843. It is a REALLY nice user, was almost unused when I got it and required very little other than a little relief at the cheeks to work nicely. Someone sold it as a "possible doorstop or decoration" on ebay, and said it was unmarked, so it only cost me $20.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=152578&d=1275868944

I might have another long plane that's older, but I can't remember the name on it, hancock tool or something on the iron and I can't remember what the plane was marked. It's probably later by a few decades.

Really old tools are too expensive to me as a user, and like george, I try to avoid stuff that's "collector" grade or rarity unless it's priced as a user.

[george wilson]

David,very nice plane. I have an old Nurse plane that looks similar to it. Sure beats paying about $400.00 for a new one,doesn't it? I have seen a bunch of coffin smoothers on Ebay lately for not much money.

All I can say is OUCH!! to whoever added the fence to that Green plane!

I have had old planes, but collectors always kept begging them off me!! I do have some 18th. C. chisels and carving tools. Latest find is a Cam mortising chisel in fine shape.

[David Weaver]

The price for new woodies is out of my range, not necessarily because of poverty but because of PA dutch heritage. I'm still waiting on the C&W video on making long planes, though I don't really need a video at this point with as much literature as I've accumulated about making planes.

My delusions about making a long plane or three have diminished greatly given how cheap a good long plane is if you keep your eyes open, especially after seeing what a QS blank 4x4 and 30 inches long costs.

That JT brown plane is so tidily done that I wrote it off as machine produced and probably modern when i got it (I am by no means a collector or expert of wooden planes). The tote is done exactly as you have described as being virtuous, with careful attention to keep crisp transition between the flats and the curves, and the mouth is exactly as I'd make it if I were making one - set just about where you'd want a jointer to be at a minimum and no wider. I've had four double iron beech jointers, newer, before finding this one. I cut two of them into pieces to make short beech planes.

I don't know why my bench was such a mess when I took that picture, I must've been making a metal plane. The swarf looks like brass. That picture is why I'm hesitant to make a bench out of porous or soft wood. I like to make a plane on my WW bench and then just run a vaccum connected sander over it when I'm done to freshen the surface and rewax it. Poor people have poor ways!

[george wilson]

Your bench looks neat compared to mine!!:)

Your old plane is in great condition,great patina,the OLDEST wood you'll get(for sure) in a plane,and certainly made by top notch old time craftsmen. What more could you ask for,for $20.00?

[george wilson]

In truth,the one way your plane falls down,and suckles of the great mother of all Polish sausages,is that it has never been anointed with the master salve,i.e.: the tallow of the sacred sheep. My Nurse plane HAS in abundance the holy black crud piled bountifully high in every nook and cranny. E'en upon the naked,plain surfaces themselves,looking strangely like spat out half digested licorice ejected untimely from the mouth of some giant aficionado of the treacle laden sweet.

Nay,sir, your plane has not yet reached its fruition,its goal,its destiny. Go search again for another. Make haste!!

[David Weaver]

That makes my plane a poser! It does have some hard dots of stuff on it, I couldn't figure out what it was. Maybe someone dipped it in scrapple...oh wait, it didn't come from pennsylvania. I can't remember where it came from, but it's probably not a place where people think of scrapple so fondly as where i'm from.

I should have it lab tested, and if it doesn't work out to have animal fat on it, I'll tie a long string to it, and pull it through a rendering plant.

In truth, the only place it falls short of modern metal planes (like current production) is that the iron doesn't have the stamina that a new A2 iron has. It is a good iron, sharpens easily and doesn't fail unpredictably but like the rest of the irons of that age, it doesn't quite match modern metallurgy - it's not as hard and not as wear resistant.

[george wilson]

Actually,I was in a hurry when I looked at your plane. It may have tallow on it after all. Just not as much as my encrusted Nurse. I had to go to the store,and was taking the dogs. It is snowing this morning at 28º. When I got onto the road,it was already solid ice. I turned back,not wanting to get the dogs hurt should some Virginia driver crash into me. They never know how to drive in snow.

I spent several years in Alaska,myself,in Ketchikan and Sitka. the streets were narrow and the roads primitive for the first years. The cars all had"Ketchikan fenders".

[David Weaver]

Ketchikan fenders is something you'll have to define for us. Google didn't turn up anything.

28º is almost beach weather!

Whatever it is on the plane, i won't be adding any more of it. It was on the bottom, too, just not as much as there is on the top. The plane was banana'd a little (or a lot), convex, I lapped it flat. I'm sure the purists will decry that, but it sure works better flattened. At least they oriented the grain the right way back then so it was convex and not twisted, as some of the newer planes I've gotten have been - some of them with a huge amount of twist, like an eighth or more.

[Jim Koepke]

Ketchikan fenders is something you'll have to define for us. Google didn't turn up anything.

Seems obvious, the kinds of fenders cars would have anywhere where the roads are primitive and the sliding into things is plentiful.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I would assume that meant the fenders were dinged up.

[george wilson]

Yes,dinged up fenders. I thought that would be kind of obvious.:)

[David Weaver]

Well, you'd figure up there with as much as folks have to drive in the snow, they'd be good enough at it to avoid that!

People here are pretty good in the snow, they're used to it and they do a good job on the roads. Lots of hills with turns at the bottom, though - they're interesting if the forecast is wrong and the roads don't get salted.

[george wilson]

The thing is,I swear,most of the people in Ketchikan were from the DEEP South!! Lots of Phillipinos,too,for some strange reason. The climate must have been a shock to them!

[Dave Anderson NH]

David, Up heere in NH we get lots of snow too, but people still don't always drive well in it. The prime culprits are the SUV folks who don't seem to understand that just because you can go well and fast in the snow doesn't mean that you can stop any better than anyone else. Complacency also takes its toll.

[Bruce Haugen]

Many years ago when North Dakota first outlawed studs from snow tires, the legislature made an exception for the Highway Patrol. Obviously, those guys need something pretty good. But mostly the troopers opted not to take them, saying that if they studded tires didn't prevent other people from plowing into them if the troopers could stop short but no one else could.

I now live in MN, where we get our share of snow, too. Many people, including me, have 4WD pickups, which are marginally okay in snow, provided there is additional weight added to the back end. Otherwise, those 4wd vehicles are actually worse than front-wheel drive cars (they are fun to slide around in empty parking lots, though :-)). My wife's Accord handles much better than my pickup. But then nothing prevents you from being smacked by someone who thinks that just because they have all-season radials on their car that they can drive as if the roads were clear and dry.

[Pam Niedermayer]

My experience is that everyone, including myself, thinks that s/he is a very good driver and everyone else is not.

Pam

[george wilson]

When I did go out again today,I saw 2 SUV's crashed into the trees in the median of the highway about 1/2 mile apart. One with its lights still on. About 1/2 mile farther was another SUV in the median tipped on its side,headlights still on. A police car had stopped to help.

By the time I finally went out,the road was pretty clear. I wonder how people manage to get into so much trouble. Those SUV's hadn't been there too long since their lights were still on.

[george wilson]

David,the crud on your plane looks more like caked linseed oil than tallow.

[Tom Vanzant]

My old-timers are young by comparison. I have a John Moseley & Son/London 22" trying plane, an A. MacKensie/Aberdeen 22" trying plane with an R. Sorby iron set, both from about 1850. I also have a Kimberly fillister (fillitser) plane with a wedged fence, age unknown. They make up a very small collection of "elderly" wooden planes from across the pond. All are useable but remain retired.

[Ron Hock]

Picked this one up dumpster diving in Pompeii. It's in the de-rust tank now and we're making a new blade for it.
174178

Happy Holidays, everyone!

[David Weaver]

Looks like a hand plane fit for a clay-mation movie, Ron.

[george wilson]

Yes,a new blade is ALL it needs to be a USER.:) Actually,I wouldn't touch anything except to de scale it. You will destroy archaeological material. If the plane was iron filled with wood,it is probably all eaten away. You can see the handle is gone already.

Maybe it's a cheaper,all wood body,actually,though I can make out what seems to be the metal sole.

You have most likely won the oldest plane contest.:)