Groz bench planes?

[Joe Shinall]

I don't really use planes. I actually only have one, an old Stanley #2 of my grandfathers. I probably would use them more if I had more and if I started practicing with them.

So my question is, for someone just starting into planes, are the Groz planes any good?

They are pretty affordable compared to even cheaper ones like WoodRiver. So are they good enough for a beginner?

[george wilson]

They are made in India,and are crude enough to frustrate a beginner. Do not buy real cheap tools unless you are VERY STUBBORN.

[James Taglienti]

I have never used one. I have heard MANY people say that they arent as good as vintage Stanley. If the only plane you have is a #2, you're missing out on quite a bit... they're useful, but not the most useful! Also not the best one to start practicing on due to their inherent value...
If you're on a budget, have you considered buying vintage planes and outfitting them with new blades?

[John Coloccia]

I hate to say bad things about tools, especially the Groz because they seem like they can really be workable with some tuning, but you're going to put an awful lot of work into them to tune them up. As a beginner, the last thing you need is to be frustrated by your tools. I'd always recommend buying at least one quality plane from LV or LN, just so you can see what they're supposed to look and work like. From there, you can buy whatever you want and "fettle" until everything is working properly, using your good plane as a frame of reference.

In case you don't know what "fettling" is, it's basically a euphemism for "sanding the snot out of your plane until:

1) everything is flat and true (this is a theoretical stopping point only)
2) you run out of sandpaper
3) something breaks
4) you lose something important, often as a result of loosing one's patience and tossing the plane through the shop window out onto the grass"

[Joe Shinall]

Sounds like no Groz for me then! Just from the few comments so far I am pretty leery and think I will stay away from them then. Will keep looking for some Stanleys on ebay. Thanks guys.

[Dave Beauchesne]

I don't really use planes. I actually only have one, an old Stanley #2 of my grandfathers. I probably would use them more if I had more and if I started practicing with them.

So my question is, for someone just starting into planes, are the Groz planes any good?

They are pretty affordable compared to even cheaper ones like WoodRiver. So are they good enough for a beginner?

Joe:

Read ' Labour of Love ' further down the NEANDERTHAL FORUM - make your own decision. ( SORRY - I WAS COMPOSING WHILE YOU ANSWERED THE POST )

Personally, I buy the best I can afford, and only when I have a moment of weakness and buy something that is more ' affordable ' do I get upset with myself. I just wasted money - period.

Why did I spend over 50 bucks EACH when I bought my ( Lie Nielsen ) chisels a few years ago ? Because, 1) I spent the extra money for the rosewood handles, and 2) I can chop dovetail after dovetail and retain the chisels edge for much longer than some other ' cheaper ' ones I have, ----I smile each time I pick one up - admire the rosewood handle, and the craftsmanship and the edge retention.

To me, premium tools are worth the $, and since I don't drink or smoke - quality tools are my vice. If you are on a budget, do some research - SMC has oodles of great, free advice BTW; buy an old type 11 Stanley ( or equivalent that is worth fettling ) and make it sing. Perhaps a couple of appropriate sized old Stanley or Buck chisels, hone them up - - - - - and be able to grin from ear to ear when you can pare end grain without hassle.

From what I see, you could not give me a Groz - that may sound harsh, but I want to smile and enjoy the tools I use. I haven't worked that much with wood, so there are frustrations everytime I do something in the shop- at least the tools are something I can control.

JMHO

Dave Beauchesne

[Brian Kent]

The only inexpensive planes that I like are the rosewood Mujingfang planes available from Lee Valley and Japan Woodworker.
All 4 of these for $154 plus tax and shipping:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E105%2E1155&dept_id=13602http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E105%2E5050&dept_id=13602
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E105%2E9050&dept_id=13602
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E105%2E9050&dept_id=13602

[Brian Kent]

The only inexpensive planes that I like are the rosewood Mujingfang planes available from Lee Valley and Japan Woodworker.
All 4 of these for $154 plus tax and shipping:

Small Polish plane
Small Smoother
Jack
High Angle

[David Cefai]

I don't think that Groz are any worse than current Stanleys. I have a No5 and a BU block plane both bought new.. The No5 was a medium efffort fettle. The Block Plane was maybe an hour's work.

Both of them now sing.

Obviously the next one may be a different story.

[Chris Hudson42]

Hi Joe,

Just to second what many others have said: As a beginner, its going to be easy to get frustrated by a poor plane, or a poorly setup one. "Been there, done that."

I've also bought my share of eBay planes - and have a rough rule-of-thumb when considering an eBay price/bid. I figure - on average - the plane I'm looking at will really cost me 50% more than that. Why? Because - again on average - I figure 1 of 3 I buy will be junk, while the other 2 will be OK.

There are various off-eBay private sellers of older planes - and while you may pay a little more - most will let you return them if you are unhappy. One example is: http://www.sydnassloot.com/index.htm (Tools forsale/ Planes: http://www.sydnassloot.com/tools.htm#METPLAN )

Whichever way you go, also assure you know how to - and do a good sharpening job on the blade. And if the blade is bent, rusty/pitted, blued etc. - replace it. (For a long time, I only had a nice circa 1940 Stanley 5C with a replacement Hock blade - and was very happy with it).

Good Luck!
Chris

[Jim Koepke]

Joe,

Being that you are in Georgia, there are a few other Creekers in your area. Hopefully one or more will contact you and invite you to try a well tuned plane so you at least know what to expect from a quality hand tool.

If Atlanta isn't too far a drive for you, Lie-Nielsen will be having a tool event there on the 7th & 8th of May. That is a bit of a drive though. Sometimes becoming educated requires a sacrifice.

jim

[Joe Shinall]

Joe,

Being that you are in Georgia, there are a few other Creekers in your area. Hopefully one or more will contact you and invite you to try a well tuned plane so you at least know what to expect from a quality hand tool.

If Atlanta isn't too far a drive for you, Lie-Nielsen will be having a tool event there on the 7th & 8th of May. That is a bit of a drive though. Sometimes becoming educated requires a sacrifice.

jim

Thanks Jim, Atlanta is only 3.5 hours and I have a sister that lives there. We go up all the time and that's where I buy my wood. Is he going to be at Highland WoodWorking? It's literally 2 blocks from my sister's house so I dread going up there to see her :D

Thanks for the further advice from everyone else. I am starting a "plane fund" jar and I think I'm just gonna save up and bite the bullet and wait for some Lie-Nielsens.

[Rick Erickson]

Smart move Joe. You won't be disappointed in either the Lie-Nielsen or the Lee Valley line. Lie-Nielsen will be at Peach State Lumber (not Highland Hardware). He will be there along with several other very nice tool manufacturers. It should be a great time. If you are at all interested in seeing what these tools can do you shouldn't miss it. There is no substitute for getting your hands on the tools before you buy. But watch out, Lie-Nielsen puts plane oil nicotine on the handle of all his planes. As soon as you touch one you are hooked (and they don't provide a patch to slowly detox out). Where gloves :D

[Jim Koepke]

Here is more information on the tool event:

HAND TOOL EVENT at

Peach State Lumber

FRIDAY, MAY 7TH, NOON-6PM
SATURDAY, MAY 8TH, 10AM-5PM

4000 Moon Station Road - Kennesaw, GA

FREE ADMISSION

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/?pg=67

jim

[Kirk Smith]

Hi,
I did buy a groz #4 for about $40 when I just started ww hobby 3 years ago. I did not know any different between a good and a bad one. And actually did not start using it until last winter. Since I already had one so I wanted to make it works. I read alot about plan tunning and bought a set of hock blade and chipbreaker for $70 shipped.
With a bit of touch up and tunning the plan works beautifully now.
This is just a learning process and I am happy it works out fine. But I will go for LV plane next time. Actually I have my eyes on the LV#7 now. And I will get it in the near future.

[Curt Harms]

Hi,
I did buy a groz #4 for about $40 when I just started ww hobby 3 year ago. I did not know any different between a good and a bad one. And actually did not start using it until last winter. Since I already had one so I wanted to make it works. I read alot about plan tunning and bought a set of hock blade and chipbreaker for $70 shipped.
With a bit of touch up and tunning the plan works beautifully now.
This is just a learning process and I am happy it works out find. But I will go for LV plane next time. Actually I have my eyes on the LV#7 now. And I will get it in the near future.

What You did is what a guy at Highland Woodworking recommended to me a few years ago--said the Anant planes can be decent if you put a Hock blade in 'em.

[Tom Adger]

If you do decide to go to the show at Peach State, you may want to visit their website, www.peachstatelumber.com (http://www.peachstatelumber.com), before you go. They have a nice selection of hardwoods.

[scott spencer]

I think you'd be better off with something that has better bones to start with, whether via an older Millers Falls, Record, Bailey, Bedrock, Union, Sargent, or a newer Lie Nielsen/Veritas, which all have superior precision and metal choices in key areas than the inexpensive modern planes made overseas. Compare almost any part of a new Groz, Footprint, or even a new Stanley Sweetheart to the parts used on a plane made prior to 1950...everything from screws, levers, caps, adjusters, soles and totes is either thinner, sloppier, softer, lower grade, cheaper, or all of the above.

[george wilson]

Thing is,a beginner may not know what to do o a cheap plane to make it better. He may also not have the tool skills to file the frog flat,etc..