How to get parents to let you start a woodworking business

[Brendan Plavis]

Here is my question, if you started woodworking when you were a kid, how did you convince your parents to let you start.

I am quite good with woodworking(see below for a picture of a desk I am building) And want to take it up for a hobby/business to make some money(sell coffee tables and the like.) My issue is, getting my father to agree to it(hes a cop, so hes tough to talk to.) Part of that issue is that my grandparents live with us(hopefully only temporarly.) My father allows me to use power saws and the like, no issues, as he trusts my judgement(although accidents do occur, as a few of you have found out.) My grandparents on the other hand require my grandfather to be at my side every moment(I don't use extremely dangerous tools either; I use drills, hammers, an electric mitre saw(dangerous only really if you put your hand under the sharp round thing spinning a few thousand RPMs :) ,) as well as a jigsaw(sure it can cut you, but, its not going to disfigure you in a hurry like a chisel or other saw.)

I have good common sense(see above for the mitre saw ideology) as well as the ability to use lumber effectively(I have 6ft of 2x4 remaining, I need to have a total of 10ft, so, I was going to rip the board(its just for a keyboard tray(mount the rails to) but my grandfather is telling me to go buy a 2x2 instead.... waste of money if you ask me, and refuses to rip it for me(I hate table saws(mainly since the one we have is my grandfather's, and it doesnt have a guard, nor a featherboard.. scares the crap out of me.)

I have always injoyed woodworking(build my first workbench(later became a lemon aid stand for a year(I got too tall for it, but I needed a table for my first business(made somewhere in the vacinity for $50 in a day, not bad for a 6year old) out of plywood at age 4-5(I forget,that was 10-11 years ago.) Now I want to take it up as a profitable hobby(I only have a summer job, so I am looking for a bit of suplimental income(people always are in need of tables and desks.) But, I am not sure how to make things work(getting the family onboard.) Since I am a minor(15) I need obvious parental consent/assistance(I dont have my license yet(heck not even my permit). I currently have the capital to make it work, somewhere between 1200-1600(I seem to have some money missing(unless my balance didnt show that a check cleared.) I am not looking to spend all of that, but, I certainly have enough money to purchase lumber to make a first product, and from there I would purchase tools(not going to purchase 2k of tools if the venture flops.)

I am guessing that if I spoke to him, my father would let me gut the shed and use that as a work space(just stores junk, and since we dont use the garage, maybe stuff like that(except gasoline) could go in there.) Would be kinda cold tho...)

With that said, I am hopping(or hoping(what ever doesnt mean to hop) that someone could perhaps suggest to me the best way to bring it up.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Here is a pic of the desk. It was done with Pine and the top is going to be melomine. It will sit flush with the top of the frame(hides the hideous sides.) Cheap desk, only cost me $40(initial lumber, and a few sanding belts(grandfather picked up the cost for the wood he made me get) Sturdy as a rock though... This pick is a little old, I did a little more sanding since then(rounded the edges a bit)

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8705/040510184300.jpg

[Myk Rian]

First, does your Grandfather enjoy wood working? I used to watch mine make bowling pins on his lathe. He made them for the local bowling alley. Maybe yours would like to show you a few tips.

Just mention to your parents that you enjoy WWing, and hope to make a serious hobby of it. Tell them it keeps you at home, instead of running off and getting in trouble. What parent could say no to that?

[Rob Hough]

Put grandpa to work in your shop. ;) I have no advice really. My parents thought I was nuts when I wanted to a guitar player in a rock band. 35yrs old and I'm still doing it though. :)

[Eric DeSilva]

If you want to get taken seriously, write up a business plan. Anytime you think about starting a business, it is a good idea--whether you are 15 or 50. Identify who your target customers are. Figure out a couple products that you might sell and figure out your cost to construct and the price you would sell them for. Figure out how long they will take to build. Find out if people are willing to pay what you want--maybe even talk to some potential customers. Figure out a safety plan and draft some safety rules you would follow. In effect, show him that your plan is well thought through. I think if he believes you have thought though the whole thing, he has to give you a considered response. That might not be "OK," but it might be "OK when you turn 16," or something else.

[Sandy Smith]

Brendan nice work on your table. Each time you make something you learn more and more. Is there any classes you can take at school?
I think if I were you I would try to think of something that your Dad might like to have or use.
Let him keep seeing your not willing to give up and you like working with wood. He is watching you and waiting to see if you are serious. In my life I have tried many things and gave up many. The ones I was really serious at I kept up for a long time and it showed to all I was serious.
So back to your Dad. Is there a nice cabinet he needs? An award display? A cool box for gun cleaning stuff? A nice holder for something? You get the idea. It would communicate your serious about wood and it will give you something to practice on. Pretend he is a customer and does your finished product look sellable.

Good luck. Keep up the good work.

[Greg Wease]

Brendan, is there a high school in your area that offers evening woodworking classes? Or a Community College? We are fortunate in that the middle school my son attended had a woodworking program. He was able to demonstrate the ability to produce some nice things in the school shop with supervision. That convinced me to buy a few tools for our home shop and we made a few things together--before his interests switched to other things. Perhaps you can find a way to use an existing shop to make things to sell at craft fairs. That way you could prove to your dad that a home shop might be a good investment.

[Brendan Plavis]

My highschool offers shop. Unfortunately, I have no time to take the course, as I am studying to be an engineer, so I am taking more achidemic classes.

Unfortunately, there is nothing that he uses(uses a computer, but, I dont think a wood computer would work very well....)

I may bring it up to him next time he asks me if there are any classes(at RISD) I would like to take.

While Im at it, might I ask what my initial investments should be? I currently borrow all the tools I use)

Thanks

[Bill Wyko]

If you want to make a million dollars doing fine woodworking.....start with 2 million.:D Good luck.

[James Carmichael]

If you want to make a million dollars doing fine woodworking.....start with 2 million.:D Good luck.

LOL, reminds me of the old saying "Best way to make a small fortune...start with a large one"

I figure if anyone was getting rich off of this, there would be lots more woodworkers and a lot less reality TV (does anybody watch that stuff?).

[Neil Brooks]

Hey, Brendan....

Just an "out of the box" idea:

If your parents are the obstacle ... could you get THEM to post on this forum, talking about their concerns and objections ??

Maybe we would have better luck if we knew what we were up against ?

Best of luck, either way !!

[Brendan Plavis]

Its not so much of my father an obstical.. I am just not sure how to approach em.

My grandparents are the obstical.... and its because they are afraid that I will mutilate myself with a tool...

Im going to look at the school of design, to see if they have a class, that might get the ball moving..

No one has answered though, what tools should I look into getting, within the fist couple projects?

[Tom Walz]

What about picnic tables. My dad was a doctor but he built picnic tables because he liked to.

Use 2x8’s. Find a good outdoor lumber that is readily available locally. Your frame is an A frame at either end. You put a 2x6 across the top of each A frame to support the top. You extend the bar through the middle of the A out each side and this supports your benches. You can have one board or two board benches.

This is easier than separate benches. Depending on your design they can tip over if you only have people on one side. However separate benches can tip over as well.

Use standard dimension lumber wherever possible. The lumber yard can do most of your cutting for you. You need very little so you can use hand tools. (Dad was surgeon so he was scared to death of power tools. Losing an index finger would have put him out of work.) You can drill holes and bolt though with a brace and bit.

Use stainless steel hardware. Offer zinc plated ass well but try not to sell it as stainless really is better.

Try an ad on Craigslist and eBay to figure out your price.

Sell ready to assemble kits as well. Boards with holes and a pack of hardware. Remember to give than extra 1 of washers, lock washers, bolts and nuts. It makes you look really classy.

Build maybe one kit and start selling. If they want another kit then build it. If they want it assembled then put it together.

If Dad is a police officer in this society he is strung really tight anyway. Heck of a tough job. Having relatives live with you, no matter who or how much you love them, just adds to the strain. I’d go with the advice from the guys above. Give dad a plan that is well thought out.

The table above can be easily built with hands tools. That should be a big plus with Dad. If you build one to get your costs you won’t be into it for much money.

You probably won’t make a big profit off each one because you won’t have much work in it or anything really that unique. Offer custom lengths for the big profit. See below.

Then you should have:
2x6’s for the top
2x6’s for the benches
2x6’s for the bench supports
2x6’s for the top supports

Then figure out what else you can build using just those four sizes.

Also offer custom tables. Price 12 foot lumber and other lengths as well. Maybe you can even offer a twenty foot table as a single table. Get a big depot first before you price 20 foot lumber.

That’s my suggestion. Not big money and not totally creative but a nice, straightforward project.

Good Luck,
tom

[Joe Shinall]

You started with the easy one. Would have been easy to talk my parents into letting me do it. The problem is I waited til I was married to get into WWing. Trust me, the parents/grandparents will be a breeze compared to trying to talk your future wife into it one day ;)

[Tom Walz]

Get a hammer, a hand saw, a brace and bit and two combination (open and swivel socket) in a size to fit your bolts and nuts.

[David Prince]

Have your grandparents buy you a sawstop for their piece of mind!:D

But seriously, build because you enjoy it. Build anything you can get your hands on and see where that takes you. Stick to building for yourself and those close to you. If you start building for others it changes how you look at woodworking.

And, if you run into a problem with what you built, you don't want it to come back and haunt you. (Say you build a desk for someone. They put a fish aquarium on it. Their 2 year old stands by the desk to admire the fish. Somehow the desk collapses and the aquarium falls and the kid gets seriously hurt!) What kind of liability insurance do you have? Who covers the lawsuit for medical bills? If you are under 18, they could probably go after your parents)

I am not trying to scare or discourage you, but you will want to know what you are getting yourself into and know what you are doing when you put something together rather than just building for enjoyment!

[james penn]

(I don't use extremely dangerous tools either; I use drills, hammers, an electric mitre saw(dangerous only really if you put your hand under the sharp round thing spinning a few thousand RPMs :) ,) as well as a jigsaw(sure it can cut you, but, its not going to disfigure you in a hurry like a chisel or other saw.)

You don't have to put your hand under the blade to lose few fingers.
A bad supported piece of wood can PULL your hand in the blade.

Ready to learn few tricks for using a miter saw?
You can start learning how to use the tools and avoid accidents before you start talking to your father and granpa.



I have good common sense(see above for the mitre saw ideology)

Your ideology is.... incompete? do a google search...
Results 1 - 10 of about 32,200 for miter saw accidents. (0.37 seconds



With that said, I am hopping(or hoping(what ever doesnt mean to hop) that someone could perhaps suggest to me the best way to bring it up.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.





Start by learning.
miter saw accidents?

[Brendan Plavis]

Start by learning.
miter saw accidents?

I generally clamp the work down, if I see a danger that could possibly occur, or result in binding(got the bagebus scared out of me when I was doing a 45degree mitre, I didnt realize that you had to move the fence, so long story short, I learned to clamp the piece and stand up(I put the saw on the ground) while cutting.... I was surpised that it didnt shed any teeth(a few of the carbide tips are missing, so I am thankful that I didnt have those strike me(I had to lift the blade guard, because I was cutting a 2x4 (4in up) and knew if I didnt it wouldnt retract before hitting the piece, so I was most unprotected)

I am quite aware of the dangers, and thus is why I generally do work only when someone is in the house(incase of the worst.)

[james penn]

I generally clamp the work down,

I am quite aware of the dangers, and thus is why I generally do work only when someone is in the house(incase of the worst.)

Brendan,
You're afraid of the tools.
Woodworking is to have fun without any fear for any tool.
You need to build your confidence levels with good education.

Then, you can have fun without someone watching after you.
Woodworking schools for safety classes?

Please, don't take me wrong.

[Isaac Juodvalkis]

RISD is a great school (I am about to graduate!), but I would not recommend taking a class there now. Their CE classes are quite expensive, I would try to save it until you have some more experience and can really take advantage of the school. I am assuming that you are in RI because you mentioned RISD and it sounded available to you, there is a recent graduate who started a shop and provides classes for the beginner wood worker. His Studio is in the Hope Artist Village in Pawtucket, if you have any questions feel free to PM me.

[Kevin Gregoire]

if your grandfather keeps bugging you just tell him your next project will be a casket and
then ask him what his favorite wood is? he might stop hanging around so much? jk

[Richard Wolf]

Brenden, I almost think this post is supposed to be a joke. I'm not looking to discourage anyone, and every one must start somewhere. BUT, you have zero training, your skills are absolute minimal, and you think you can make money selling desks that look like that? Have you ever seen a desk? Do they look like your desk? Many years ago I used to teach 15 year old students, with proper direction, fine furniture can be built.
I think your grandparents may be concerned that your over confidence will get you in trouble.
I suggest that you find someone or someplace where you can get formal training in woodworking and begin learning safe, practical, traditional woodworking.
If you would like to make money woodworking, find something that you can make well and sell fairly inexpensive and will have a large market, and I do mean make well. Like a cutting board or clock.
I honestly feel you better start listening to people that have more life experience then you, and stop thinking that woodworking can be learned through the school of hard knocks. Mistakes can hurt.
You don't know enough about woodworking to know what you don't know.

I have gotten some nasty feed back in the past for my brutal honesty, but I am trying to get you to be realistic about this great vocation, don't settle for doing things dangerously and improperly and say that's the way you wanted it. Find out how to do thing right and do them right.

I'm sure you may read this and just think I'm a grumpy old fart, but I have been working wood for over 45 years and a professional for over twenty.
Do yourself a big favor and get some training.

Richard

[Clarence Miller]

"I honestly feel you better start listening to people that have more life experience then you, and stop thinking that woodworking can be learned through the school of hard knocks. Mistakes can hurt.
You don't know enough about woodworking to know what you don't know."

Richard may be brutal, but his words have merit. I wish I was half as smart as I thought I was when I was a teen. I had good men give me a dose of such honesty from time to time. I usually end up thanking them after a time.
However something has to be said about finding a youth with spunk enough to try, they are getting harder to come by every year. When I look back on my first woodworking projects I almost shudder at the fact that they left my shop with my theoretical joints.
If you are looking for a good bang for your first tool, I would recommend a pocket hole tool like a Kreg jig along with a book of pocket hole projects, If your Dad will let you use his drill you'll be able to make some projects to build your skill level. The speed at which boards become furniture with such a tool will keep you interested.
Not all of us have had the benefit of formal training in our endeavours. My first table saw was salvaged from a landfill. I did have the benefit of being raised on a farm where carpentry skills were part of the job. I took agriculture in school instead of shop but we did do some work in the shop.
My woodworking training has been for the most part, home learned. Notice I did not say self taught, I read the manuals that come with my tools, I started out by buying a great book at barnes and nobles called "The Complete Book of Woodworking" that I used like a text book to develop my skills. I would recommend it to you. Watch Norm Abram reruns, make friends with older woodworkers. Also forums like this one are a great resource.
I read a lot in the finishing forum but seldom post there as I am still very much unlearned in this aspect.
Another thing I would suggest you do without waiting, get that miter saw off of the ground and up to a decent working height. Being stooped over such a tool is just begging for a SNAFU to occur. I have never yet planned out any of my accidents.
Don't be so hard on your grandfather. Ask his advice on how to do things, even if you don't use it. I never had the chance to meet either of my grandfathers and I wonder what knowledge was lost.
I wish you luck in your quest.

[Ray Newman]

Richard and Clarence: +1....

[Von Bickley]

People need to be honest and tell it like it is.

I agree with Richard.......

[Victor Robinson]

What Richard said should cost you money, Brendan. :p

Focus on learning for the time being. If you make learning and improving your skills the focus, and do it for many, many years, ONE DAY you might be able to have a successful woodworking business. Like many in this thread have alluded to, making money in woodworking is very, very hard. Even making enough to just pay for your tools and wood is tough.

If you try to start a business now with little to no training/experience, you may not be successful AND you'll distract from your real career (as a student and future engineer). Soak up knowledge, training, and experience like a sponge for the time being and enjoy yourself - worry about making money later.

I don't mean to sound preachy...but I promise you there is a TON of really sound advice in this thread and I hope you pay more attention to it than I would have at your age.

[Rick Markham]

Man, if I had a chance to do it all over at 15... If I were you, I would find the local cabinet shops, and visit each one and talk to the owners, and express your interest in woodworking and ask them politely if they need someone a few hours a day in the summer to help sweep up and be a "go-fer" (in otherwords a step and fetch it) In the process you will get to learn what tool is used for what, how a production shop works and (hopefully) proper safety techniques and a healthy respect for working tools. If ya learn quick, someone will surely take you under their wing and start teaching you, be a sponge and soak up everything you can. In the mean time, you might earn a little bit of money, get educated on tools and their uses, and will be able to make a decision of whether it truly is a business you want to be involved with. Read all the books, you can on joinery, handtools, etc. Start small, tell your dad about your potential interests in this industry and ask him for a ride to the cabinet shops so you can look for a summer job and learn as much as you can! Your Grandpa has a right to be concerned, he probably understands even with proper safety procedures, accidents do occur, and are often much worse than you might imagine. That little jigsaw would probably surprise you how much damage it can do in a very brief time. Just my $.02

[Norman Pyles]

I'm glad you have parents, and grandparents. :)

[Alex Leslie]

I agree with the other "sages" above. Get some training first.

You might check to see if the local community college has some evening outreach classes. When I was in high school, I took some photography courses that way; none were offered at my high school.

Go to a Gary Katz "Roadshow" or a Lie Nielsen hand tool event. You can find the schedules at their sites. These are great places to get some information and talk to other woodworkers.

Never stop learning. I am 55 and I know more about woodworking today than I did one year ago. I will know more next year than I do now.

ALWAYS put safety first!!!!

[Myk Rian]

Google for "woodworking club (your area)". Visit them.

[Mike Cruz]

Listen, you are getting a lot of good advice here. Take it.

Start by doing what is suggested by making a business plan, doing some research on the cost of buying your own tools (like the ones you are borrowing) and whatever else you feel you could use, and ask your parents if they would sit down at the computer so you could show them something... Log into this forum and show them your post. Show them what everyone is saying. Let them read ALL of it. And as someone already suggested, invite them to ask questions here. After that, maybe your grandparents would like to chime in here, too.

One way or another, you NEED to take some classes. Hey, I'll give you two thumbs up on the table you are building. Especially if you have no training or real prior knowledge of building things. There is a LOT to learn about wood movement and jointery that you really ought to know before you try to sell anything. Why? Because your projects will establish your reputation. You don't want things to fall apart, crack from expansion, or just not last.

A table saw is something you should respect, not something that should scare the crap out of you. I'm glad that it does scare the crap out of you though...because it sounds like you don't have experience with it, and it could cut the crap out of you, too, if you don't know how to handle it properly. Even IF you DO know how to handle it properly, it could still get you. Safety features like guards and featherboards are nice, but they don't take all the risk out of a tool. I'm not advocating using the tool without proper safety features, I just don't want you to get lulled into a false sense of security with them.

To answer what tools you should get... Well, it all depends on what you want to do. If the tools you are using do the job, well then, there you go. There are more tools on the market than you could ever imagine. There are staples in most shops (table saw, jointer, planer, dust collector, band saw, shaper, belt sander, randon orbital sander, drum sander, miter saw, lathe, router, router table, drill press, and many more) but there are many shops that do very well without some or the other because they either don't need them or wouldn't use them. Some shops could do without a shaper, some can't do without a lathe, some have multiples of the same machine (I have two band saws). Someone who never builds cabinets, and never intends to may not need a shaper. But a cabinet shop can't be without at least one. And these are just the big power tools! You still have a BOAT LOAD of hand tools to consider...

So, your tool choice depends on what you plan to do now, and how you plan to grow. That is also why classes are so important. They will introduce you to tools, how to use them properly, and give you an idea as to what you may want/need for yourself.

Finally, advice is given on this forum very liberally. Please note that everyone that is responding does (or at least SHOULD) realize that they are giving advice to a minor. While I don't know what liabilities there are for such advice, caution is should be taken in giving it.

Hey, Brendan, I've gotta hand it to you. You have great ambition, a natural knack for woodworking, and an awesome sense of humor. By all means, don't give up. Sit your folks down on the computer and let them read what you are thinking and feeling if it seems like talking to them might be difficult. You may actually address some other issues other than starting up a woodworking business...like that yopu feel your parents are not easily approached. I don't know your family dynamic, but maybe they don't know how you feel about that either...

Good luck. I hope we see you around here for some time to come.

[Stephen Tashiro]

In the spirit of "get some training", you should consider how you are doing in your training to be an engineer. It might be wisest to get some more training in engineering or concentrate more on that training ( are you an "A-student"?). If you want to pursue woodworking as a hobby, the first thing to do is reach an income level where you can afford to buy all the tools you want. Even the average engineer might have trouble doing that these days. You need to be a better than average engineer and preferably an engineer with a specialty, like engineering applied to medical devices or UAVs etc..

Of course, you could specialize in engineering related to woodworking. I have no idea whether that field pays much. Why not visit the "CNC" section of this forum? CNC is in the spirit of engineering and technology. Perhaps your relatives would have less objection to that.

[Jim Rimmer]

I will second the idea that you are getting a lot of good advice here. Don't let the tone bother you. Think of these guys as your "other" grandfather. They are trying to help you.

I will add (or add to) two things:
1. Check out the neanderthal forum here. Especially look at pictures/commentaries of projects posted there. Those guys make some amazing stuff and never use an amp of electricity. That doesn't mean it's cheaper but for the price of one quality table saw you could get a nice layout of hand tools.
2. Is there a Woodcraft store near you? They offer a lot of weekend classes/seminars. Some are free; some have a small fee. Check them out. Start with the classes around small projects and basic tool use.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Dan Bowman]

Am I the only one wondering if we're getting punk'd?

[Chuck Saunders]

From the looks of the 2 posts in the other threads I think that it is highly likely. Trolls, gotta love em.

[Mike Cruz]

He certainly didn't answer the one thread like a 15 year old that doesn't know much about woodworking.

Thanks for the heads up, guys. I will do my best to ignore his future posts. I hope karma comes his way.

Hey, Brendan, man up and tell the truth...

You know, I should have noticed when he spelled academic "achidemic"...

[Mike Cruz]

Son, if I may call you son, if you would READ you would notice that I took the time to write out a very lengthy and in depth reply to your thread. I meant every word of it. If, in fact, you are a 15 year old that is asking a legitimate question, then take the advice of those (including me) that have taken the time to try to help you. Getting angry on this forum and calling people out will not likely get you far.

Someone pointed you out about being a troll based on your other two posts. Not because you are new to the forum, but because the responses you gave on the other two posts. They don't seem consitant with how you write, or how you portray yourself in this thread.

As for woodworking experience...hehe, while I am not purporting to be the most skilled, most experienced woodworker on this forum (because I am not), I will say that your "experience" as a woodworker is limited, even if you have been doing it for 10 years. Yes, that is 2/3 of you life and that seems like a long time to you (if in fact you are 15), but by the looks of the table, your jointery is crude, you used screws, the cross in the back is just two pieces lapped (not even dadoed out) over one another. Believe me, you have a LOT to learn if this is the level that you are at.

I, too, have now typed my last words to you.

I no longer wish you good luck. I hope life comes back to bite you in the ...

[Brendan Plavis]

Son, if I may call you son, if you would READ you would notice that I took the time to write out a very lengthy and in depth reply to your thread. I meant every word of it. If, in fact, you are a 15 year old that is asking a legitimate question, then take the advice of those (including me) that have taken the time to try to help you. Getting angry on this forum and calling people out will not likely get you far.

Someone pointed you out about being a troll based on your other two posts. Not because you are new to the forum, but because the responses you gave on the other two posts. They don't seem consitant with how you write, or how you portray yourself in this thread.

As for woodworking experience...hehe, while I am not purporting to be the most skilled, most experienced woodworker on this forum (because I am not), I will say that your "experience" as a woodworker is limited, even if you have been doing it for 10 years. Yes, that is 2/3 of you life and that seems like a long time to you (if in fact you are 15), but by the looks of the table, your jointery is crude, you used screws, the cross in the back is just two pieces lapped (not even dadoed out) over one another. Believe me, you have a LOT to learn if this is the level that you are at.

I, too, have now typed my last words to you.

I no longer wish you good luck. I hope life comes back to bite you in the ...

I am sorry, but I do not believe that calling me a "butthead" is very respectful. And with that said, unfortunately the saw wont permit for modern Dado blades... its a 7.5in blade, most dados are 8in.

Sure, my jointery is crude.. unfortunately my hands were tied, because my grandfather refused to allow me to use finish nails, rather than decking screws... But, my joints are fine... The table top is mitred, so none of the end grain is showing. Unforunately, the same cant be said with the bottom; he refused to let me mitre it to make it look decent... So thats why its crude.. not my lack of skill, but rather someone who doesnt know jointery if it struck them in the arse...

And yes, sometimes my ways of writing sway. I have the experience to comment on things, but with that said, If I am asking for advice, I tend to write a tad different. Just the way I write.

I meant only the best when I asked the question, with no trolling/'punking' in mind, but apparently some of the members of this forum have found me to be a tyrant/target.

[Gary Herrmann]

Hey Mods, I think it's time to shut this thread down.

It's not serving much of a purpose for anyone at this point.

[Van Huskey]

Brenden, I was one of the first people to read your post yesterday and have spent over a day having no idea how to respond to your post. It came across a little like a Troll but there don't seem to be many bridges near this forum despite its size and activity. I pegged you as real but with a little issue when it comes to cockiness and perception of workmanship and I figured your parents were free flowing with praise (as a parent should be) but your father was a realist when it came to the concept of you actually selling you work.

There are a lot of people here who make their living woodworking and a lot like me who do it as a hobby and ALL here are free flowing with information but when asking a question (outside a courtroom or a psych office) you are admitting you don't know the answer and have to show some humility in the asking. Not counting my years in my father's shop I have counted woodworking as a hobby for 20+ years and I think it was about last year that I considered I knew a "fair" amount about woodworking and maybe in another 10 or so I might consider myself "quite good". Woodworking isn't football where you might be as good as you are ever going to get by your mid-20s it is an art where someone like Sam Maloof dies in his 90s still perfecting his craft.

Two bits of advice, first training, formal or informal get all you can. Second, when you decide what you want to build to sell go a store that sells that type of item, look at the wood, the joinery and the finish and compare that to your efforts. The day you can match or exceed the quality and be price competative with those items is the day you can BEGIN to develop a business plan. As a teenager you can pick up some construction SYP lumber and slap it together and call it furniture and some friends and relatives will probably make a donation to the cause in exchange for it, but until you can get someone who doesn't know you to pay their money for the item you really haven't gotten to the point where you are ready to run a business.

[Brendan Plavis]

I must concur. I started off asking an innocent question, and it has turned into a conflict.

So I write my last message. I am sorry to those I offended, but, if someone were to call your work crap, would you not comment in the same manor? I write this to reitterate that I am not a troll to the forum, and do not appreciate being called one.

I appreciate the productive answers given by many of you. Thankyou.

Respectfully,
Brendan

[Van Huskey]

Thought better of it edit...

[Mike Cruz]

Heheheheeheheheheehe. Aaaaah, I'm rolling on the floor... I can only imagine what thoughts swirled through your head, and then I can hear the brakes squeeling... ERRRRRRRRRRRCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Neil Brooks]

Hey, Brendan....

Another thought.

I'm sort of an "auto-didact."

In theory, that means I learn pretty well on my own.

So ... while I *totally agree* about local woodworking classes, may I also suggest you take a few minutes -- on Amazon or ABEBooks or ... any other site -- even the public library -- and find what seem like easy-to-read, and easy to understand basic books about woodworking.

I've probably spent about $300 in the last year on used books, but have amassed an AMAZING reference library -- both for skimming for general knowledge AND for getting answers to specific questions.

There's little downside, if you're good at grabbing a book and sucking the learning out of it. You also get inspired by all that you see.

At this point, MY book knowledge is WAY ahead of my woodworking skills ;)

Good luck!

[Brendan Plavis]

Hey, Brendan....

Another thought.

I'm sort of an "auto-didact."

In theory, that means I learn pretty well on my own.

So ... while I *totally agree* about local woodworking classes, may I also suggest you take a few minutes -- on Amazon or ABEBooks or ... any other site -- even the public library -- and find what seem like easy-to-read, and easy to understand basic books about woodworking.

I've probably spent about $300 in the last year on used books, but have amassed an AMAZING reference library -- both for skimming for general knowledge AND for getting answers to specific questions.

There's little downside, if you're good at grabbing a book and sucking the learning out of it. You also get inspired by all that you see.

At this point, MY book knowledge is WAY ahead of my woodworking skills ;)

Good luck!

I hear you... Im the kind of person that takes a glance at something, and imediately knows how to do it... My instructers tell me I have a photographical memory.... I just look, and can figure out how its put together, and how to replicate it... unless I have a troublesome relative medling with my designs...

Thanks for the suggestion

[Jim Rimmer]

I don't know, Brendan. This post started out OK and then you got pretty snippy. I went back and read your other 3 posts and 2 out of 3 sound pretty much like a smart a**. I blew them off at the time because everyone has a bad answer now and then. But tie those with this post and there's an attitude that is not typical of Sawmill Creek.

If you are for real and are 15, then you need to mature a lot and I tend to agree with your parents and grandparents. If you are pulling a joke here - not funny. A lot of very talented people gave you some of their time in order to help and they (and I) don't appreciate people wasting our time.

[David Prince]

First point: Improve your attitude! The posters here are trying to help. Brutually honest or suggestively helpful!

Second point: Improve your language! Just cause someone says something that rubs you the wrong way doesn't mean you have to come out "swinging". Respect your elders and respect others!

Third point: It isn't my job to judge your work, but if you truly feel you have something there, I would encourage or should I say "dare" you to enter it at a county fair and see if you can win ribbon!

Fourth point: I don't know if this is a troll post or not. If it is, please leave because we have better things to talk about. If not, re-read points 1, 2, and 3 above and seek honest advice.

[Mike Heidrick]

Craigslist is free and does not require a business. Sell the items you want. Abide by your parents rules.

If dad does not mind then you have his blessing and get building. If it is grand dads/moms house then look out.

Maybe go after the outdoor market or the gardening bench crowd. Add picnic tables and gliders. Invest in a chopsaw soon. Maybe get into adirondak chairs.

[Zack Teal]

hey i have been think about doing the same thing. i am 15 as well and have been using tools from a very young age. right now i have a small work shop in my basement now but have been looking to expand to do something like u were talking about and starting a small woodworking business making coffee tables and such as well. hope it turns out for ya.

[Keith Weber]

Brendan,

Like many others, I thought your post was a joke when I first read it. I was surprised that it took until Richard's post for somebody to say what I was thinking. You seem to have an overly-inflated sense of your own abilities and knowledge. You're young and inexperienced, so I guess that I can understand where your cockiness comes from. SMC is a great asset for someone wanting to learn and willing to listen. There's a lot of experience here, and almost all are willing to help.

What concerns me after reading some of your posts on other threads, is that you seem too willing to jump in and give advice to others. You are not at that stage yet. You have too much to learn, and should not be giving advise to others. It will be clear to the experienced crowd here that you don't know what you're talking about, but a newbie may misinterpret your advice as coming from someone experienced. Someone may get hurt by listening to you. You really need to focus on learning right now -- not on giving advice to others.

While talking about SS safety devices, you made the following remarks...


How long have you been working with tablesaws? If you have yet to cut your hand off, then dont bother getting an extra brake. If you are careful, you should never trip it.


Not to mention, since its electronic, it probably goes bad after so long of sitting on a shelf, so if you dont plan on needing it, dont buy it.

Like I said (and I'm sure that most here would agree), you THINK you know more than you do. Personally, I'm not convinced that you know anything at all about woodworking short of using a simple saw and a screwdriver. Ask as many serious questions to improve your skills as you wish, but respect those older and wiser that are trying to help you, and lose the cocky attitude for a sincere and humble approach. You will gain so much more in the long run. And, please, please, please... do not offer advice to other woodworkers asking questions pertaining to the use of powertools!

Keith

[Glen Butler]

I have attempted several responses to this thread, but my instincts kept telling me to close the browser and walk away. But I do have one thing to say now.

Brendan, you cannot come to an open forum asking advice and only accept the positive responses, or rather, shrug off and get upset at the negative responses. Richard's advice was fair, as he runs his own business. Just the advice you were seeking. I run my own business as well and will second everything he said. If you are genuine, your next post should be an apology if you care to be taken seriously on this forum.

[John Coloccia]

My worthless opinion:

If you really want to make a go at it, my suggestion would be to ditch most of the power tools, pick up some decent handsaws, chisels and sharpening equipment, and start make boxes. Not screwed together or butt joined boxes. I mean REAL boxes with precise joinery and attention to detail. Once you've spent the summer doing that, and you'll get good enough to start selling them before the end of the summer, everything else will seem easy and you'll have a much better appreciation for how wood behaves. You'll also be at a level of precision in your work that most will never have the dedication to achieve. Then when it's time to make a dovetailed drawer for a dresser, you'll be able to do it in your sleep having made countless, high precision, dovetails for your small scale work.

That's my $.02. I honestly don't think you have the equipment, or the $$$ for the proper equipment and wood, to build furniture, and you probably don't have the skills either, but you do have the means to do some really great small scale work. My opinion is that this is the best way for you to make your entry. It also alleviates problems with your family, although I have two stitches that say that chisels can cause injuries too....LOL.

Good luck.

[Marty Paulus]

Brendan,

I read your post last night and at first was unsure of how to respond or if I would respond. This morning I have re-read your original post and looked at some of your other posts as well. I should have caught it the first time around. You feel a miter saw is safer then a chisel? That to me shows a real lack of knowledge. I would have to question your maturity levels based on reading some of the comments as well. It may be that your parents and grandparents see the same issues. Your comments are cocky and are putting off the very people who’s advice you need to be seeking.

You may not like the comments on your work. However they are right on. Your work is crude. It may be functional but it is a long way from the fine woodworking that the average person will pay to have in their home. I would suggest reading this before you post pictures of your work: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=128523 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=128523)
Then, when someone comments on your work, take the advice and learn from it. Don’t get defensive about negative comments. I, for one, would rather have someone be brutally honest about my work. That is how to learn what is good and what can be improved. Your table can be better. Posting pics goes a long way on this forum. Anyone can say they have done this or that. Without pics on this forum, it didn’t happen.

Blowing sunshine on something doesn’t make someone better. The advice on getting more training is right on. You are going to get hurt. You have already had some close calls, whether you realize it or not, with the miter saw. That alone tells us that you don’t know what you are doing. If you take one piece of advice away from this thread please let it be get some formal training.

[Mike Cruz]

Marty, thanks for posting that. While I've been here on the Creek for about 9 months or so, I've never seen that. Very good advice, for BOTH sides.

[Horton Brasses]

I'm not quite sure what all the negativity on this thread is about, from either side. My son is 5, but when he is 15 (or 10, or 12, or 30) and wants to start any kind of business I would support him. You learn more from failure than you do from success. I'm not going to comment on your joinery or workmanship. One, I'm not qualified to do so, and two, it's none of my business. Give it a go, if you can make a few bucks, great. If not, you'll need to figure out why and do something differently.

If your family doesn't want you to work with power tools, work with hand tools. Sell something and make a few bucks, then demonstrate some skill and knowledge and I'm sure they'll come around. What parent wouldn't want their child to follow their passion and be successful?

Skills can be learned, and learned as you go. Many great ventures have been started by people without the proper skills. Just look at music, some of the greatest rock bands in history have been started by people who didn't actually know how to play the instruments.

[Brendan Plavis]

In response to Glen's reply, here is my formal appology.

I have been under the weather, and have been under a fair amount of stress over the past few days. With that said, I may have taken it out on you folks. For that I appologize. I am kind of down to the wire on a few deadlines, due to the fact that they were construction projects, and when ever my grandparents are here(5days a week) I am forced to wait for them.

So I wish to ask for the slate to be wiped clear. And request your forgiveness.

With that said, I think I will go with what John said, and try to start small. My next project, depending on what amount of lumber I can find(In the shed is a bunch of 2x8 and 1x6/8).. Might be to do a small shelving unit for el banyo...

Respectfully,
Brendan

PS: Keith, I have been working with computers for a while aswell(I build my own, and such) and have heard often of electronic parts going bad if not in use. My guess is that when an SS is activated, an electric current flows through a series of chips, when this current is broken, then it activates. Sometimes, if a chip doesnt have any juice put through it for a long time, it can go bad. He asked an oppinion, and that is what I gave him, an educated oppinion.

[Eric Gustafson]

To all who have been scratching their heads over the OP and to Brendan, I have to add a few things.

SMCr's first. I think our OP is sincere, inexperienced, naive, and perhaps a little immature. What else do you expect from a 15 year old? More from some and less from others. But this kid is about normal IMHO. In the spirit of SMC lets welcome him and continue to give him tons of advice, cause he obviously needs it and more importantly, wants it. A little patience on our part and I think we can have a new friend. Hopefully, we can help him keep his fingers intact!

Brendan,

Thanks for backing down and reconsidering. This forum is probably the best anywhere for woodworkers. There are some great woodworkers here doing a lot of really great stuff. This website and other websites combine to provide a lot of education and guidance that was never available when I was your age. Add humility and an open mind to your enthusiasm and you will go far.

A word of caution you have already heard. These power tools we use can maim you instantly, for life. Start right now and learn everything you can about safety, before you attempt your next project. Good luck, welcome to the SMC forum, and keep reading the posts here and asking questions. We will all be here to help.

I also want to thank the moderators for not killing this thread.

[Brendan Plavis]

I hear you Eric. I realize the dangers involved with all tools(powered or otherwise) and that is why, if something feels even the slightest unsafe, I refuse to do it. My grandfather isnt the slightest safe. He wanted me to hold a log, while, inches away, he took a chainsaw to it. I refused, until something was put between me and the blade... and another time he wanted me to try and cut a very small piece on the mitresaw(fingers were within no more than 3in of the blade)... I refused aswell... Believe me, I want to keep all factory original limbs...

I can say, that I am pretty sure we have all done something stupid(ie: Me not checking the fence of the saw(in my defense, it didnt look like the blade was hitting :eek:(I didnt see sparks either) so dont think that I am not safe in my use of powerful machinery.

Thank you for your time and kind words

-Brendan

[Mike Cruz]

Horton, I'll try to clarify the "why" refering to negativity...

I, too, at first was being supportive of Brendan. The reason I started pointing out particulars about his craftsmanship was because he was confident about his knowledge of woodworking and skill. This based on the fact that he had been wwing for 2/3 of his life. While I would never have ragged on someone for a project that they were proud of when there was some humility and the poster was being humble.

Note a recent thread where entitled something like "I'm kinda proud of this"... it isn't a masterpiece, but the poster was proud of something he hadn't done before and quite frankly, I was proud for him...because he did something daring, busted himself for never trying it before, and admitted it wasn't a masterpiece but rather something that was good "for him".

No matter what I do, I will be that person to somebody. I am NOT the most skilled here on the forum. Partly due to experience, partly to patience. Right now, I don't have the time or patience to build mobile bases and benches that are showroom worthy...but my hat is tipped to all that do. ;)

When Brendan bragged about having a lot of experience and being knoledgable, that is when I decided to bring him down to earth with a stab at his jointery.

Look at my first post. I believe I was being totally supportive. It was after I realized that he may be a troll that my attitude changed. His cocky attitude, whether he is a troll or not has given me reason to refrain from addressing him and his quest. This post is directed to you, in explanation of your first sentence or two, to help clear up why the negativity. If you are unclear about the negativity because you disagree, well, that is your right. I will not argue that.

[Glen Butler]

Your apology is not really mine to accept, rather those that were directly involved, but I will forget.

I like the idea that was brought up about the picnic table. It is something that doesn't require fantastic joinery. Redwood would be ideal but expensive and until you got the kinks worked out in design you may want to start with fir. Just seal it well and perhaps to look like redwood. I know a few people who would love a picnic table for summer parties, and it is very functional even if kept for yourself. I don't think it would command an asking price to turn a profit, but hopefully you could cover costs and gain some experience.

[Tim Mahoney]

If you really want to learn about woodworking, then get busy finding some classes at your school or a community college. There isn't any excuse for not doing so. Doesn't matter that you want to be an engineer. A few hours training will make all the difference and will actually help you in the engineering field. I never liked those engineers right out of college that could draw all day long on Autocad but didn't have a clue if it would work in real life. Don't blame your parents or grandparents either. That is a cop out. Just do it on your own and surprise them with a really nice project. Start out small, maybe a jewerly box using alot of hand tools. Check out the guitar forums on a guitar build. Every teenager loves a nice guitar. Lots of hand work. On second thought try the jewerly box. Again, just do it! You will be so happy when it's done.

[Brendan Plavis]

First I think I am going to finish the computer desk, then I am going to work on possibly a bathroom cabinet(tired of my razor finding its way into the toilet....)

I discovered some wood that the previous owner left for drying in the overhead area of the garage(windows too, maybe tools(saw a tool box) I think its dry by now(9years, 10years....) So I got something to play around with.. Im not too good figuring out woods, so perhaps someone could assist me(Ill post a picture of it later) its red in colour and soft(Screws I drilled into the end grain(its for a keyboard tray) wouldn't hold, so I was forced to use rimmed nails) it doesn't splinter(when I cut pine on the mitre saw(awful dull blade) it sends a hundred splinters my way)

Thanks
-Brendan