Craftsmanship v. workmanship

[Betsy Yocum]

The post about design got me thinking about a question that I've been bantering around to myself for a while now. So now I'll let you all give me your ideas on the matter.

What's the difference between craftsmanship and workmanship? I remember my Dad always made a distinction between the two. It always came down to whether someone was making a living at something or not. Dad was a mechanic/tool maker/wrench man - so whenever he discussed what he did in that field he spoke in terms of craftmanship. However, he was also a talented woodworker but he would always refer to his finished works as workmanship.

I have always disagreed with him on this subject. I think that if a person does as good a job on anything he or she is doing then its craftsmanship. If a person just throws the job together to get it done it's workmanship. So if I were to make a side table and did the best I could I would consider it good craftsmanship today. Two years from now, when I'm a better woodworker I would probably call the same peice good workmanship - because now I can do better.

So is craftsmanship really dependent on the person's ability or their attitude toward what they are doing. If my 9 year old nephew worked very hard and did the very best he could possibly do and his table wobbled would it be less than craftsmanship? Or would you just tell him work hard next time it'll be better?

I'm sure there is no real answer to this question - but I'd like to hear your take on things.

Betsy

[Donnie Raines]

Craftsmanship:SKill in an occupation or trade. The work of a craftsman.

Workmanship: Product of effort or endeavour. The skill of the craftsman.

That what the dictionary says......they appear basicly the same to me... :rolleyes:

[Denny Lawson]

Craftsmanship:SKill in an occupation or trade. The work of a craftsman.

Workmanship: Product of effort or endeavour. The skill of the craftsman.

That what the dictionary says......they appear basicly the same to me... :rolleyes:
Ok I'll give my .02..:) by way of an analogy..

Donnie & I can both hand cut dovetails...that shows craftsmanship

his look better than mine:o , even though I tried my best...that I believe shows a higher level of achieved workmanship on Donnie's part.

Denny

[Michael Stafford]

This thread in some ways is related to the one that Mark Singer started.

I have always thought of workmanship as being in a highly competent and fully functional manner.

Craftsmanship also implies all of that but to me implies that it has been carried to a slightly higher level, a artistic level.

For instance, take an electrician installing the wires in a main junction box. One guy does the job very skillfully, labels every wire and writes it on the inside of the cover and everything passes code. A workmanship like job.

Another electrician does the same thing but he also is very careful to lay out the wires parallel to each other and makes sure that the appearance of his work is beautiful. He applies his labels in a uniform manner and types his label.

He has gone above being just a competent workman. He is a craftsman.

I think the same thing occurs in our woodworking endeavors. There is work that is perfectly acceptable and functional and then there is work like Jason Tuinstra's which elevates the craft to a higher level. High craft as opposed to just wood working, fine woodworking which is what we all aspire to I am sure.

Probably all wet here but I think there are different degrees of quality. I hope my home was built by people who had good worksmanship skills but I would not be diappointed if many of them were craftsman who went above the basic level of just being functional.

[Jerry Olexa]

Big Mike said it well. I have always felt craftmanship implies a higher level of professionalism, attention to detail, artistic flair etc (as in Jason T's work). When I complement someone's work and I use the word "craftmanship", I mean the higher(est) level of praise. I agree fully w Mike's thoughts. NOW, however, the Webster ll Dictionart throws a curve. It says craftsman is a skilled worker:artisan BUT workmanship is " the craftmanship of a workman" or "the quality of a craftsmans work" ?! Little confusing and doesn't resolve the issue in my mind. I'll continue to use (maybe dumbly) "craftmanship" when I want to give high praise and I will remain an ignoramus! :) !

[Dave Bartley]

I believe that most would say the difference between the two is the quality of the job performed. If the dovetail joints on one is a bit loose, and the other, they are absolutly perfect, the perfect one would be considered "craftsman ship".

[Brian Hale]

Drop the 'ship and what's left? Craftsman and Workman. I believe a craftsman to be a professional, not only someone that performs his/her Craft for a living but also one that has reached the pinnacle of expertise in that field. A workman also performs the craft but is still learning from the Craftsman.

Brian

[Dale Thompson]

Betsy,
You are asking a very unfair question! However, this is my input.

The word "Craftsman" brings me back to the "Old World" term, "Craft". The British had "Craft Guilds" (now known as unions) which separated "Craftsmen" from "Workmen". The "Craftmen" had , "special skills" or abilities in the field of "art". They were given special status in the Kingdom. They were, in todays language, "specialists" in a given field. They may have been turners, scrollers, carvers, cabinet makers, painters, artists, sculptors, etc. They were not "generalists" as we presently view the term.

"Workmen" were not equally recognized. On the other hand, "Workmanship" is also referred to as, "Skill or -----quality of the work done". I would suggest that the, "Workmanship" reference is intended more for the "generalist" than for the "Specialist". In todays world, we must certainly give both levels of expertise an equal status.

By the way, "Workmanship" is MORE than doing a good job on a new or remodeling project. It also means cleaning up the worksite after the project is completed. :)

Just a thought from an old codger, Betsy. I'm sure that you will get more definitive responses. :confused: :o

Dale T.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I have always though craftsmanship was better than workmanship, in fact I rarely use the second term unless it's in a negative comment (poor workmanship).

[Bob Hovde]

There are lots of word combinations that are like this. They have been used so much that the small distinctions have been lost. As already noted, a craftsman (specialist) is a workman (generalist), but not necessarily the other way around. The dictionary says that craftsmanship refers to the skills of a specialist (craftsman); therefore, when you refer to craftsmanship you refer to the quality as being like an expert had done the work. Workmanship, being more general, could refer to the work of either a craftsman or a workman. In my years of editing reports and proposals, I've found that most people apply their own interpretation of "goodness" to such words. At least these two only have a slight shade of difference. Much better than the confusion over "principle" and "principal."

So, does this mean that the Creek has fine craftsmen that perform with great workmanship?

Bob

[Greg Hairston]

Betsy,
Seeing your post made me think. (this could be dangerous) I would say that most of us are not craftsman. Rather we are woodworkers striving to reach the crafstman level. Craftsmanship deals with a skilled trade. As stated in an earlier post, in Europe you would have to apprentice for many years to become a craftsman. I would say some members of this forum are craftsman that have been self trained and/or formally trained and are now working in the profession. I would also say that most work on this forum is of high quality but that would denote a high level of workmanship.

Bottom line If you build a table as a woodworker as your first project and it is one of the most amazing tables ever built it denotes a high level of workmanship. If you are trained (self or formally) to build the table and do a mediocre job then that denotes a low level of craftsmanship.

Greg

[thomas prevost]

Living in "Shaker Country" and about 60 miles from Stickley factory, one gets to see lots of furniture from each. One can see the craftmanship in the Shaker furniture. Not only is each joint tight and square, but each piece is chosen from the stack of wood so it flows into the adjacent pieces and is estically appeasing once completed. It is also designed such that it can withstand the rigors of the high humid spring to the "0" humidity of a farmhouse heated by woodstove. Although very simple furniture, it excells in beauty due to the craftmanship displayed.

Although Gustav and his brothers may have been craftman, the men in the factory, mass cut each piece of wood to very exact dimensions from preset plans. they are then assembled uisng the same gluing jigs for hundreds of pieces. They then stained (fumed) the pieces to get a better match of the woods. The products are beautiful. But these men have only displayed great workmanship.

I on the other hand consider myself a mechanic. I have neither the eye nor skill the old time Shakers had for not only tight fitting joints and seams, but in choosing the exact board so each flows. Nor do capability of building many prototypes and jigs to get the perfect fit the Stickley furniture represents.

[Greg Griswold]

As you are asking for opinions, here's mine.

When I refer to a specific technique/techniques, I use workmanship. When I refer to an entire finished piece, I think of craftsmanship. I look at good craftsmanship as the ability to pull all of the good workmanship together into one thing.

Just my thoughts.

Greg

[Michael Perata]

I have always liked this quote:

"Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets. Imagination without skill gives us modern art."

Tom Stoppard, "Artist Descending a Staircase" British dramatist & screenwriter (1937 - )

I think he was trying to say you need to find your style and apply your skills. A lot of people can make rocking chairs, Maloof makes THE rocking chair.

[Betsy Yocum]

All very interesting replies.:p

I'm not sure that I would ever call anything mass produced craftsmanship as agreed by several here.

I think craftsmanship belongs to those who do the best work he or she can. I'm not sure that I would exclude the term for use with the 9 year old when compared to other 9 year olds. However, compare a 9 year old to a 40 year old then we are on a different plane. However, with that said as that 9 year old improves, the first project would probably be looked back on as workmanship and not craftsmanship because he's improved (hopefully).

I don't think the term craftsmanship should be used lightly for sure. But I'm not sure that I would exclude its use just for the very best of the best.

I certainly go back and forth on this issue. Glad it's sparked some debate!!:D