New member with a big question - part 2

[Rob Strause]

Hi again,

Okay, so now that I posted an intro, you can imagine the question. A series of question I suppose. How best to outfit my shop. It will be half of my garage. I'll add power, lights, etc... but its still half of a 2-car garage. The sportscar will be going, but it would be nice to keep the motorcycle. ;)

After reading magazines and forums, I decided the obvious, that I should start with a good table saw. As I started pricing contractor saws, it seemed that good ones, with good fence, long rails, mobile bases, etc... started to get as expensive as entry-level cabinet saws. So I thought a reasonable cabinet saw would make more sense then - especially after realizing that a cab saw actually takes up less space with the motor in the cabinet and dust collection is superior.

My biggest concern with table saws was processing sheet goods. Since I'll be doing a lot of floor-to-ceiling bookcases, ripping large backpanels will be necessary. I'll be working alone and that seemed like a difficult thing to do with contractor saws. And still unweildly with a cab saw with a long fence. So I just assumed a good cab saw, with a long railed fence woudl be the only option. (of course by the time you option up the entry-level saws this way they're nearly as expensive as a Unisaw).

So just as I decided to pony up for an expensive cab saw (there are some great deals out there right now) I went to the local Woodcraft store in Delaware and saw the Festool system. That really seemed like a good idea. Cutting boards down with a CS was obviously going to be required, but "finishing up" a 40" by 80" backpanel was still going to be unweildly. The Festool system seemed like it would solve that problem. I noticed several of you here use it and have had a lot of time since your early posts to get experienced with it. So, I thought what you think about the system now and to test some of my assumptions, since I'm really guessing.

So now the big questions.

First - am I right to be concerned over ripping large panels by myself on "any" table saw, or is it easier and safer than I think it will be?

Is the Festool system really that good, that I wouldn't have to cleanup backpanels?

I assume I would still want a table saw. Do you Festool'ers still use your TS, or have you found it unecessary? I'd imagine it's still a good tool to have for convenience and repeatability for many operations. But, do you still think I'd need a cab saw with long rails, or could I get by with short rails, maybe even go back to a contractor saw?

I know there are a lot of "depends". The Festool system is expensive, but I do need to upgrade my major power tools and buy new blades anyway. I know there are other otions to the Festool system, but my workshop is a garage and I have a wife with asthma, so dust collection is a real benefit.

So I guess this boils down to....

How good is the Festool system for the situation I've described and how does it impact the buildout of a brand new shop? Particularly the TS.

Forgive the lengthy intro and for your input. I can't wait to get started!

Thanks again,
Rob

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rdstrause/allofus160.jpg

[Lee Schierer]

Ripping plywood alone can be challenging. I do it occassionaly in my shop on a contractor saw with an extended home made outfeed table that is 4 feet long. So in combination with my table, I have over 6 feet of an eight foot sheet supported at the ed of the cut. This is important since you can't be in two places at once. Supporting and guiding the sheet to start the cut is a bit tricky, but without support on the outfeed side, you end up dancing around your table saw while you try ot continue the cut, hold the piece to the fence and keep it balanced on the small table all at the same time.

Therefore, whatever saw you choose, make sure the outfeed surface is large enough to support the pieces you intend to cut without tipping either the piece or the saw.

[Tyler Howell]

Beautiful family.
I have a respectable cab saw and adding Festool products to my shop. As MOR WW I would say always buy quality equipment. You can add as you go. The going discussion is a good table saw is your most versatile and useful tool.
To tell you the truth I'm still afraid of mine and we are getting to know each other slowly.
I use a guided Csaw to dimension my flat panels and the Cab Saw for the finished product.
One thing you can count on here is opinions. You'll get many more;);)

[Jamie Buxton]

Rob --

Using a stationary saw to make a good first cut on a 4x8 sheet of plywood takes more space than most of us have. You need 8 feet in front of the saw, 8 feet in back of the saw, and infeed and outfeed tables for the plywood while you guide it through the saw. Me, I can barely lift a full sheet of plywood, much less guide it accurately through a cabinet saw. I always use a guided-saw system like the Festool for the first cuts in a 4x8 sheet. I don't use the table saw until I've broken the sheet down into smaller pieces -- ones which I can easily feed accurately through the saw.

There are many Festool fans on this board who really like the Festool guided saw system. There are also economy-minded folks who just use a good straightedge to guide a less-expensive saw. You pays your money and you takes your choice.


Jamie

[Steven Wilson]

If you started with Festool products and then picked up a Minimax CU300 Smart and a MM16 bandsaw you would be all set. Eventually you'll get there.

[Lars Thomas]

Welcome to the Creek Rob. I hope you enjoy your stay. More importantly, welcome to wood working!

The guided circular saw system (GCSS) of which ever brand you prefer is great for breaking down sheet goods. But I hardly feel it is a substitute for a tale saw for most wood working projects. I couldn't imagine prepping door parts with a GCSS.

As for getting a clean edge, the GCSS will certainly provide that. However, the edge left by a free-handed circular saw is almost always fine too - with respect to case backs. This is because the back panel in the case will generally sit in a 3/8" dado.

I started with a contractor saw (from a major US retailer) and used happily for about 6 or 7 years. I then upgraded to a Cabinet Saw. I don't think either of your threads mentioned a budget, but if you can swing the cabinet saw you are likely to save yourself an upgrade down the road. Personally, for you wife's health and comfort alone, it probably makes sense to jump up to the CS - even if it means waiting on other tools. Guaranteed, you will NEVER say, 'Geez, I wish I had the smaller saw’.

If I were starting from scratch intent on building case goods, I would prioritize the major tools as follows:
Table Saw
Dust Collector
Planer
Miter Saw
1 HP Router & various profile bits
Band Saw
3 HP Router with raised panel bit(s)

Note: Jointer is not included in above list. I have one that I rarely use. My supplier will give me one straight edge and I am satisfied with glue-ups coming straight off the table saw. The trade off is I have to be more careful to select flat stock.

Well, any way, welcome to the creek. I hope the above advise helps you come to a decision. Lars

[Bill Arnold]

Rob,

As someone else already said, you'll get lots of opinions and here's another one. I handle sheet goods like others have said: guided circular saw for initial cuts, then cleaning up on the table saw. Like most folks, I have my table saw facing the large garage door and about 4' inside it. In addition, my tablesaw (with its extension table including router) is on a mobile base which allows me to roll it farther out if I'm using it to cut sheet goods. By having it in a more open part of the garage, I can handle a full 1/4" sheet easily.

In my case, I got the Jet JTAS-10XL tablesaw earlier this year when they had the special that included the extension table and router. There are much more expensive saws and there are cheaper saws. This is a solid performer and, like any other saw in any price range, is only as good as the blade you put on it. So far, I've used nothing but Freud blades and have been very satisfied with them. There are more expensive blades and cheaper blades; these are good blades and won't break the bank.

Second to the table saw, I probably use my miter saw the most although my new bandsaw is getting a workout. I seem to do a lot of frame and panel construction, so am constantly going between my tablesaw and miter saw. I have the DeWalt 706 dual miter and am very pleased with it.

I recently purchased a Grizzly G0513 17" bandsaw to replace an older, entry level saw I had. I've resawed 12" mahogany with it using Timberwolf blades and it works great. You can spend three times as much for a bandsaw with no more capacity than mine has.

There are umpteen other tools to consider along the way, of course. There's nothing like a new project to 'justify' the purchase of a new tool! Reviews in magazines usually provide good relative data. Forums such as this are a great aid as well. Some people will always steer you toward the most expensive while others will stay the price/value route. I'm definitely a p/v guy; I'd like to have some money left over for wood!

Regards,

[Jim Becker]

Welcome, Rob. Your question about dealing with sheet goods is a great one. This side of a panel saw or Euro sliding table saw, a guided saw system such as the Festool ATF55 or ATF65 or an "economy" version is the way to go. All you need is a piece of foam insulation to support the work up off the floor and the saw system. The advantage that the Festool setup has is really excellent dust control when combined with the CT-22 extractor or similar. The reason I recommend the guided saw system is that it allows normal humans to easily and safely handle sheet goods--something most of us will be challenged to do on US-style table saws. And you can go right to finished cuts.

(BTW, the best way to buy Festool from is Bob Marino at http://festool.safeshopper.com (http://festool.safeshopper.com ...IMHO) ...IMHO, of course)

[Ed Falis]

I'll second Jim's recommendation of the Festool saw and rail setup. I've never needed to go over to the tablesaw to recut anything and it seriously reduces the effort while the panel big, or if you need to make a taper cut of some kind.

That said, I wouldn't give up the tablesaw either.

- Ed

[Kevin Arceneaux]

I don't have a lot of room to store things, so I was thinking of making a small knockdown grid type system that I can lay the plywood on. I am short and cannot reach all the way accross the sheet to make a nice clean complete cut, I usually screw up the last foor or so.

[Greg Mann]

Rob,

The Festool system can solve problems you don't even know you are going to have. Below is a pic of a challenge I ran into last night with a brand new cabinet from a bunch I am installing in our kitchen. One edge of the faceframe had not been milled properly and had about a 1/16 inch taper over the last 4 inches. Trying to match it to the adjoining cabinet made for a hideous gap in a very conspicuous location. My choices? Live with it, make the retailer replace it and wait, or fix it. With the Festool GCSS, it took 5 minutes, which included carrying the saw and vac up from the basement, clamping it to the faceframe and making the trim cut. This would have been possible on a TS, but not without sliding the cabinet on the finished face! Came out perfect.:) This was done with the saw pointed right into the living room. LOML did not even blink. I have cut MDF with the GCSS on my cutting table in the carpeted portion of our basement with vitually no evidence of dust left on the floor. If your wife has asthma this could be the most considerate investment you could make.

With all due respect to your local Woodcraft, you have the distinguished Mr. Bob Marino in your backyard. He is Mr. Festool around these parts. You can visit his website, PM him, or give him a call to find out more about why there are so many Festool aficianandos around here.

I do agree with the others, however, that a TS or BS is a very important part of any WWer's arsenal. In my case, I bought a Bosch tabletop saw before I was knowledgeable enough to know better. Not that it is a bad saw, just that it had limitations I did not understand. Thankfully, with the Festool system, most of those limitations can be easily dealt with and I don't need to attempt cuts for which the tabletop was never intended. Makes my work much safer to boot.

Greg

[Greg Mann]

I don't have a lot of room to store things, so I was thinking of making a small knockdown grid type system that I can lay the plywood on. I am short and cannot reach all the way accross the sheet to make a nice clean complete cut, I usually screw up the last foor or so.
There is a very nice knockdown system detailed in an article by Nick Engler in a magazine supplement 'Jigs and Fixtures' (IIRC). If I can find my copy I will give the full name and date or maybe someone else recalls this. I think Chris P. and Frank P. also made versions. It is slick.

Greg

[Craig Colvin]

So here's yet another opinion. I have never used a guided CS. I cut a lot of sheet goods on my table saw and while they are sometimes a pain to handle by myself it is doable. It all comes down to how much you are willing to spend, but my impression is that you will get a lot more out of a good table saw then with only a guided CS. If you can afford both then go for it.

[John R Lucas]

I have been producing a DVD on cabintemaking with a Festool only shop so you can see where I am coming from. I have a very well equiped shop with TS jointer and everything else. For the puspose of the video, we have tied off the Festool side and using it for cabinet making. I know first hand that you can make perfect cabinets with the Festool plunge saw, guide rail system.
http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fest-216.jpg
Here is a sub-menu of Festool stories: http://www.woodshopdemos.com/men-fes.htm

[Ted Shrader]

Rob -

First, Welcome to the Creek! A great place to hang out and exchange ideas.

Your question is an interesting one. A guided saw system (even a straight board clamped down cut with a circular saw) will allow you to do full sheets of plywood by yourself. That said, only a couple of cuts are required to get the plywood down to reasonably sized pieces that are easily manageable. Most of the follow on cuts to build even full sized bookcases is done on pieces small enough to use a table saw. I think you will find money “invested” in a well built TS will go a long way to producing good work you will be proud of.

I have heard that there are at least three ways to do most every task in wood working. There is no real “right” way for any particular task – as long as it is safe. Sometimes you are limited by tools, other times by space, etc – and those limitations dictate your method for that particular task. Other times you have the luxury of choosing which method you will use to do a task. It is much better to have the choice than to be forced into a particular method. As your skills develop and you acquire more tools, those options will open up.

Any possibilty you could get some help for those two or three initial cuts on a TS? Then you could do all the remaining cuts alone. If not find a piece of straight wood or piece of aluminum to guide a circular saw. Think there is more bang-for-the-buck in a TS than a guided saw system in your case.

Welcome and good luck in your decision!

Regards,
Ted

[Bill Arnold]

So here's yet another opinion. I have never used a guided CS. I cut a lot of sheet goods on my table saw and while they are sometimes a pain to handle by myself it is doable. It all comes down to how much you are willing to spend, but my impression is that you will get a lot more out of a good table saw then with only a guided CS. If you can afford both then go for it.
Afford? My 'guided circular saw' is a Craftsman CS that was probably my first 'power tool', purchased so long ago I can't remember exactly how old it is. Clamp any straight edge (2x4, plywood cutoff, aluminum angle, etc.) and go for it. If I bothered to put a really good plywood blade in the CS, I could get finish cuts; but I'm lazy and keep a general purpose blade in it and do a cleanup pass on my table saw.

No question about it, some of the gadgets available now are terrific and I wish I had all of them. But, I'm basically cheap! Therefore, I look for ways to save a buck when I can. (Sounds strange even to me, considering I've spent about $7000 on new tools since the first of the year!)

Regards,

[Rich Konopka]

Hi Rob,

Welcome to the Creek. I am relatively new to this saw dust stuff and only have a couple projects under my belt. I bought a Delta contractor saw 2 years ago and I regret it. Take your time in making your purchasing decisions, do your homework, and buy the best.

BTW, watch out for the picture police it looks like you escaped them this time.

[Shelley Bolster]

Hi Rob

Sorry Festool owners, I don't mean to step on any toes here, but in Robs case I think he would get more bang for the buck if he focused on getting a decent TS and a relatively inexpencive circular saw.

Figured a few thousand would be my max spend, but less is better.
If, in a few years, if you find you are still working with a lot of sheet materials, then you can certainly up grade to a guided rail system and you will always find uses for the circular saw - so you really won't be out $$$. On the other hand, if you take away from your table saw budget, the chances are you will soon become frustrated and you will be out a lot more money when you decide to upgrade. Am I not suggesting that you get a cabinet saw (although I don't think you will find many that were disappointed with their purchase) - that would take up a good chunk of your budget meaning that you would have to scale down your list.

I've thought about how to get started and the budget and decided on what you would expect - tablesaw, jointer, planer, drill press, maybe sander and a few new hand tools.But take heart Rob - Rome wasn't built in a day and I bet there are few here that it didn't take years to outfit their shops. I personaly think you will be happier in the long run if you start out with a few good tools that you need right now instead of several mediocre ones.

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the picture of your family Rob.

Following are my resonses to your three direct questions:

Question:
First - am I right to be concerned over ripping large panels by myself on "any" table saw, or is it easier and safer than I think it will be?
My opinion:
Yes, it is a difficult thing to do. I cut several panels this way with my wife as a helper, neither of us enjoyed the experience, and I was seldom happy with the results. I am told that a table saw equipped with a large sliding table can handle this job. But such a thing is very expensive, takes up a LOT of room, and I am not convinced that it is any easier than using a guided circular saw (such as a Festool).

Question:
Is the Festool system really that good, that I wouldn't have to cleanup backpanels?
My opinion:
Yes, it is that good.

Question:
I assume I would still want a table saw. Do you Festool'ers still use your TS, or have you found it unecessary? I'd imagine it's still a good tool to have for convenience and repeatability for many operations. But, do you still think I'd need a cab saw with long rails, or could I get by with short rails, maybe even go back to a contractor saw?
My opinion:
I still want a table saw. My Craftsman TS packed it in about a month ago and I have been operating without a TS since then. I plan to get a cabinet saw (probably a General) with short rails early next year.

[Greg Mann]

Hi Rob

Sorry Festool owners, I don't mean to step on any toes here, but in Robs case I think he would get more bang for the buck if he focused on getting a decent TS and a relatively inexpencive circular saw.

Shelley,

No offense taken by this Festoolie.:) In fact, I posted along with my Festool biases that a good TS or BS is still very much an integral part of a good workshop. But Rob did mention his wife suffering from asthma, so it is in her best interest if Rob starts his collection process with top-notch dust control in mind. Thus, the Festool recommendation. Additionally, A good GCSS in hand may give Rob the option of looking at a band saw as his first major stationary saw purchase. There are a few SMCers that value their BS more than their TS. Some even claim they don't need the TS. That may be a reflection of the type of work they do, I don't know. The key is to have options and acquire the broadest array of capabilities with the initial purchases without forgetting any special requirements such as addressing a spouse's asthma, which is, IMHO, has to be the first priority.

Before I invested in my GCSS, I had become very disappointed in my previuous purchase of a Bosch 4000 tabletop saw. No offense to Bosch, it just was not the saw I really needed. Now, with the GCSS, I really don't much care about upgrading my TS. I would increase my capabilities far more by adding a BS. Setting the Festool vac aside, my investment in the Bosch and the GCSS is less than a good cab saw, and a fully equipped cab saw with adequate DC well...you get where I am going.

Regards,

Greg

[Frank Pellow]

There is a very nice knockdown system detailed in an article by Nick Engler in a magazine supplement 'Jigs and Fixtures' (IIRC). If I can find my copy I will give the full name and date or maybe someone else recalls this. I think Chris P. and Frank P. also made versions. It is slick.

Greg
Here is a pointer to a thread where I show pictures of the saw horses that I built following Nick's design and my use of these with the Festool guided circular saw. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8083

[Paul Berendsohn]

Hi Rob... Add my welcome to the others you've received!

I'm in agreement inasmuch as I'm a fervent believer in the guided saw principal, it's changed the way I do carpentry. I'd feel guilty if I didn't point out that there are some fine alternatives to Festool, including the Eurekazone system (www.eurekazone.com (http://www.eurekazone.com)) which allows you to use any right handed saw, as well as other tools that you may already own such as a router. You might want to peruse past threads on this (sometimes devisive) subject. Best of luck in your woodworking!

[Christian Aufreiter]

Thanks for the picture of your family Rob.

Following are my resonses to your three direct questions:

Question:
First - am I right to be concerned over ripping large panels by myself on "any" table saw, or is it easier and safer than I think it will be?
My opinion:
Yes, it is a difficult thing to do. I cut several panels this way with my wife as a helper, neither of us enjoyed the experience, and I was seldom happy with the results. I am told that a table saw equipped with a large sliding table can handle this job. But such a thing is very expensive, takes up a LOT of room, and I am not convinced that it is any easier than using a guided circular saw (such as a Festool).

Question:
Is the Festool system really that good, that I wouldn't have to cleanup backpanels?
My opinion:
Yes, it is that good.

Question:
I assume I would still want a table saw. Do you Festool'ers still use your TS, or have you found it unecessary? I'd imagine it's still a good tool to have for convenience and repeatability for many operations. But, do you still think I'd need a cab saw with long rails, or could I get by with short rails, maybe even go back to a contractor saw?
My opinion:
I still want a table saw. My Craftsman TS packed it in about a month ago and I have been operating without a TS since then. I plan to get a cabinet saw (probably a General) with short rails early next year.

I agree with your posting, Frank.
If Rob can and wants to afford a Festool system and a table saw, this would be way to go. If you can get only one of those tools (as I could) I'd get the Festool system but there are certainly many woodworkers out there who would opt for the table saw. IMO, it depends on what you are planning to do, your budget and space.
If dust collection is one of your major concerns the Festool saw is certainly the best choice among GCSSs.

Regards,

Christian

[Paul Berendsohn]

I was reviewing some of the advice you got Rob, and the contentious issue of guided systems aside my eye was caught by one piece of advice which was
"All you need is a piece of foam insulation to support the work up off the floor and the saw system." Having tried this once upon a time, I'd strongly suggest you look at the SmartTable on the Eurekazone site http://www.eurekazone.com/products/smarttable.html. This oughta cost you under 50 bucks (plus some scrap) and can be easily tucked away when not in use.
For a minute investment of time and money, you'll be working more comfortably which always equals more safely. In addition it's great for laying out your material, and assembly...

[Frank Pellow]

I was reviewing some of the advice you got Rob, and the contentious issue of guided systems aside my eye was caught by one piece of advice which was
"All you need is a piece of foam insulation to support the work up off the floor and the saw system." Having tried this once upon a time, I'd strongly suggest you look at the SmartTable on the Eurekazone site (www.eurekazone.com (http://www.eurekazone.com/)).

For a minute investment of time and money, you'll be working more comfortably which always equals more safely. In addition it's great for laying out your material, and assembly...
And/or build the saw horses that were mentioned earlier.

[Mark Singer]

A cabinet saw is an essential part of the shop. You cannot make rabbets and dados with the Festool. You cannot cut tenons and do other joinery operations. Before I owned the festool I would precut the panels a bit oversized with a cir saw and then run them thru the tablesaw. If you are going to buy a cir saw ...buy the Festool 55....but I would still start with a good cabinet saw....a Powermatic...Unisaw...General..Jet or other quality tool...I have the PM 66

[Frank Pellow]

A cabinet saw is an essential part of the shop. You cannot make rabbets and dados with the Festool. You cannot cut tenons and do other joinery operations. Before I owned the festool I would precut the panels a bit oversized with a cir saw and then run them thru the tablesaw. If you are going to buy a cir saw ...buy the Festool 55....but I would still start with a good cabinet saw....a Powermatic...Unisaw...General..Jet or other quality tool...I have the PM 66
Mark, I agree with you that a table saw is desireable (and preferably a cabinet model) but I want to comment on your statement about rabbets and dados. In the Festool "system", these are made with a router.

[Greg Mann]

A cabinet saw is an essential part of the shop. You cannot make rabbets and dados with the Festool. You cannot cut tenons and do other joinery operations. Before I owned the festool I would precut the panels a bit oversized with a cir saw and then run them thru the tablesaw. If you are going to buy a cir saw ...buy the Festool 55....but I would still start with a good cabinet saw....a Powermatic...Unisaw...General..Jet or other quality tool...I have the PM 66
Mark,

You are correct about the rabbets and dadoes unless, of course, as Frank pointed out, you buy into the routing package, in which case, you have an excellent system for Rs and Ds. I just built some big case sides this weekend in this manner. Made all my dadoes too narrow and had to go back and widen them up.:o What can I say? I am used to building steel fixtures for machine tools, using ground plates and CNC machines. The widths and spacings were okay, I just didn't account for the variations in width and flatness of my ply and thus had assembly problem due to stack up. Rookie mistake. The good thing is that a guided router really facilitates the correcting of said mistakes.:D

I had not responded to you 'design' issue thread but have been pondering it a lot. Now I know why many cabinetmakers use rabbits instead of dadoes.:rolleyes:

Regards,

Greg

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Mark,

A big factor on what you need is what do you already have. If you have a circular saw already make a guide for it and use it. If not research the systems and make your own decision based on what you want to do.

If you do not have a circular saw already I would get the Festool. By the time you get a guide and a decent saw you will have as much in it as the Festool. Dust collection is a must. The jet 1200 with the canister should be the minimum you should consider for your stationary tools. Look at Bill Pentz's site for further justification for this statement. If your wife is sensative to dust DC must be a very high priority especially with the garage attached to the house. There is no other hand saw at the moment that has decent dust collection. There is a rumor of something comming from Eurekazone but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Enjoy the hunt, search the classifieds, use what you have, Have fun and most importantly work safe!

My $.02 YMMV.