New member with a big question (well, maybe several)

[Rob Strause]

Hi everyone.

Well, the question is big to me at least.

I discovered this forum a couple of weeks ago and have been reading the comments and find them very informative and it seemed like a nice place to call home. So here I am.

I'm a beginning wood worker. I've done plenty of molding and wainscoting projects over the years, but nothing as big and interesting as the things I've decided to do now. We have a nice big house that is begging for bookcases, entertainment cetners, orginazation centers for kids, etc... Based on the cost of the built-ins in the study, I'd be looking at $50k of projects. Can't afford that and think it would be fun to do them myself. After all, since having the baby, there's no more time for sports cars and motorcycles, so woodworking will be my new hobby. I can't wait and show's like NY Workshop and Wood Works have inspired me to do even more one day.

Background is that I have basic tools power tools. All ordinary with the exception of the miter saw which is a PC 255L. Some are tired and others not good enough for this kind of work, so I'm practically starting from scratch. No tablesaw, jointer, drill press or machinery.

I've thought about how to get started and the budget and decided on what you would expect - tablesaw, jointer, planer, drill press, maybe sander and a few new hand tools. Like probably everyone, I don't have a lot of free time, so I decided that I should buy all quality tools that will help me, not hurt me. I'm sure I'll make plenty of mistakes, but want tools that will help avoid them, not cause more of them. Convenience is an issue too to minimize setup and fussing time. So that's been my train of thought so far. Figured a few thousand would be my max spend, but less is better.

That's the background and since I've typed a lot, I think I'll ask the question in a new post.

Thanks for the forum, the great wealth of information and I hope to be a contributor soon enough.

all the best,
Rob
Mt. Laurel, NJ

[Tyler Howell]

Welcome Rob, Glad to have you wading in the creek, love to see some of your work and glad you found us.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Welcome to the 'Creek Rob! Take and leave info as you see fit!

[Dan Gill]

Welcome to the Creek. There was a Popular Woodworking article in the October issue about setting up a shop on $1500, and also on a little more. It looked like a good article. I believe it's in the issue with our own Donnie Raines on the cover. You might go to their website and look for it in their back issues. WWW.popularwoodworking.com.

[Ernie Hobbs]

Rob:

Here's my two cents worth-- I too, and starting to build my shop and have determined that I need:

14" band saw (Grizzly, Delta, Jet, etc)
10" table saw (contractor grade but prefer cabinet saw)
6" jointer
lathe
13" thickness planer
Stanley #4 hand plane
Stanley #93 shoulder plane
good set of top-quality chisels
dovetail saw
circular saw
Router with assortment of bits
cordless drill
Mortiser and/or drill press
Miter saw
sander (4" wide, floor or bench) and 6" grinder
palm sander
lots of clamps- the more the better
scour ebay for every good old hand tools you can find!
the list keeps getting longer, the more I think about it.
Regarding quality- I agree with your post in that quality is probably more important than quantity right now. I am in the situation where I have a number of hand-me-down or cheap tools that I need to replace. I made the mistake of buying some things at Harbor Freight or equivalent that are sub-par once you realize what you are doing. Also, I have a few Craftsman tools that I was given that I need to upgrade to better quality. If price is an issue, and it always is- I would probably buy from Grizzly or find reconditioned Delta or Jet.

I think you should know how to do every project completely by hand- meaning you need to focus on having the proper skills to use hand planes, chisels, files, etc. to do all of your work. Power tools were meant to speed some of these tasks along and make things easier but, not to completely replace them. If you have the proper hand tools, you can always add good power tools later, as you develop and as your budget allows.

Most of the fun that I get out of woodworking is the learning process. That means you have to be willing to make mistakes in order to grow. Also, never skimp on safety. Losing a finger sure would put a damper on the "fun" of woodworking.

I'm interested to hear what actual professionals have to say. I'm just a weekend woodworker that is trying to improve. However, I was fortunate to grow up in a woodworking family so, even though I didn't necessarily show any interest growing up, I think some of it sunk in by osmosis. Now, at 32, I am trying to play catch-up to the things I should have learned long ago. I hope this helps.

Ernie Hobbs
Madison, AL

[Marshall Harrison]

Welcome Rob.

Don't feel intimidated. We all had to start somewhere. My best advise is to research what ever you are trying to do then do it. Next do an evaultion after the fact to determine what you did wrong (if anyting) then learn from it and keep going. After all it's only wood and time inviolved. If it isn't right then do it again.

[Greg Mann]

Rob,


If you feel there are 50k worth of projects you would like to tackle, then there is room for some very nice tools in you plans and still save tons from that figure for your tools and the projects. Many of us got into this bag for just the same reason. We looked at what we might need to spend to put some of those improvements in place and decided we could do it ourselves for a lot less, have some fun, and acquire the tools to do more. So keep asking questions. There are folks with amazing knowledge around here. You may wind up spending more on a specific tool because most of us value quality and will encourage you in that direction, but you will also wind up saving money by making fewer uninformed decisions. Welcome aboard, but be forewarned. This can be an addictive place to hang out.:D

Greg

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Welcome to the Creek Rob! You'll find a wealth of info here and a bunch of great people. My take on your situation is to look hard at Grizzly's equipment when comparing with other makes if you are sold on all new machinery. If not, I find the best deals in the paper and even a few on ebay.

It's also beneficial to watch the classifieds here and on Woodnet. I've found several deals by doing this.

One more thing, you will be addicted very soon if you're not already. You're smart to think you can do the same work for less, just realize it will take a whole lot longer!! :D

[Rob Strause]

Thanks for the welcome and input everyone. I look forward to a long and productive association.

All the best,
Rob

[Steve Roxberg]

Book cases, and built ins are often made from plywood. The trim is solid, but you could build lots of cabinets without a jointer and a planner for starters. I've been assembling my shop for fifteen years, and purchase the best I can afford when I need the tool.

I would suggest setting up a list of projects and determining what tools you would need. Then select one project based on the tools you can afford at that moment, and complete a project. I always get a professional quote and then track expenses. Often times, I can buy the supplies and the tools for the same amount. It helps with SWMBO to show those numbers.

[Frank Pellow]

Welcome to Saw Mill Creek Rob!

I agree with Steve's advice. Don't go out and purchase a tools now but, rather, purchase good tools as you need them.

About 25 years ago, I built a library in my basement and it has about 25 feet of floor to ceiling built-in bookcases and display shelves. This was built with only a contractor table saw, a dado-blade set for same, an electric hand drill, an electric palm sander, and 4 pipe clamps. The shelves are solid pine (rather than plywood as suggested by Steve) and I remain proud of them to this day.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Rob,

I'm constantly amazed by what my Grandfather built with a Craftsman bench saw, circular saws, and a few hand saws. My sugestion is start building things with what you have and buy stuff as you find it used in good condition or as you have a specific need for a tool. If you have a lot of case work to do I would recommend the Kreg jig kit as one of your first purchases. There are some good antique tool sales down around you.

Check out Todd Burch's post for built-in and wood pannel ideas.

Read, have fun and remember lots of pics

[Dale Thompson]

[QUOTE=Frank Pellow]Welcome to Saw Mill Creek Rob!

I agree with Steve's advice. Don't go out and purchase a tools now but, rather, purchase good tools as you need them. (QUOTE)

Rob,
I totally agree with Frank and Steve. Don't go out and splatter your money around for a pile of tools that someone else may have. :(

Many years ago when we were first married, my wife and I agreed that if I were to be expected to do "things around the house", I would be allowed to buy the "right" tool for the job without any serious discussion. The agreement has worked out great. I've got a bunch of SUPER tools and I've done a LOT of "things around the house". :cool: ;)

Trying to use the "wrong" tool not only results in inferior work but it also takes a lot more time and, worst of all, can be very dangerous. :eek: :eek:

Dale T.

[Mark Singer]

Walk around with a list of tools in your pocket for several weeks....

[Jim Becker]

Walk around with a list of tools in your pocket for several weeks....
Naa...it would just end up in the dryer filter! :D

[Dale Thompson]

Naa...it would just end up in the dryer filter! :D

Jim,
You're assuming that ALL of us wash and dry our clothes once in a while!? :D With the prevailing westerly winds around here, Pennsylvania just ain't that far from northern Wisconsin! Keep a cannister handy for that ventilator! :cool: :)

Dale T.

[Karl Laustrup]

Welcome Rob.

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. While all the tools mentioned will make your experience enjoyable, one that has not been mentioned is a "QUALITY" Dust Collection system.
While I always figured that wood dust was annoying to breathe, I have just recently become aware of the hazards of wood dust to the lungs. :eek:
I do believe that as much thought and $$$$ should be given to DC as to the type and quality of tools.
My shop is my garage and I use it to park my vehicles overnight. Most of my tools are mobile. I have used a shop vac on the tools that have dust ports. This only collects a very small percentage of the dust generated when using TS, BS, router, radial arm, sander, jointer etc.
After much research I'm awaiting the the delivery of a cyclone system which will be installed and collect dust from all my tools. My research lead me to purchase a 2 HP commercial Oneida system. :)
While the tools I use to make my projects are important, I felt the most important thing was my health.:)
From what I've learned about wood dust, I would make a DC system one of my first purchases and like other woodworking tools, I'd make it the best.

Good Luck and Enjoy,
Karl

[Rob Strause]

Thanks for the input everyone.

Karl, I agree that DC is very important. I'll have a DC system for stationary tools so one of the questions I have regarding the GCSS'es is can the non-Festool flavors offer good DC when used with a stationary DC system and power tools that support DC, or is the Festool design simply superior in all aspects.

I've gathered from many of the threads that the primary advantage of non-Festool systems is that you can use existing tools. With the exception of CMS and Belt sander, I'm starting from scratch, so the issue for me boils down to best value. That boils down to this:

Do the non-integrated/non-Festool systems provide equal or better DC when combining multi-brand , DC-capable tools with a stationary DC system, or is the integrated Festool system simply superior in DC and convenience. For me if Festool is clearly superior, the decision is made. If they are close, than it comes down to the difference in total cost.

Shopping is part of the fun !

Thanks as always for your opinions.
Rob

[Rich Konopka]

Hi Rob, Welcome to the Creek. The one thing I would recommend is to take some woodworking classes. There are plenty of schools around. Taking the classes gives you the opportunity to learn safety, learn the tools from skilled woodworkers, meet other woodworkers, get some projects under your belt, and most importantly trying out the schools equipment. This can be done before any major investments in equipment.

[Christian Aufreiter]

Welcome to Saw Mill Creek Rob!

I agree with Steve's advice. Don't go out and purchase a tools now but, rather, purchase good tools as you need them.

About 25 years ago, I built a library in my basement and it has about 25 feet of floor to ceiling built-in bookcases and display shelves. This was built with only a contractor table saw, a dado-blade set for same, an electric hand drill, an electric palm sander, and 4 pipe clamps. The shelves are solid pine (rather than plywood as suggested by Steve) and I remain proud of them to this day.

Welcome to the Creek, Rob.
I totally agree with Steve and Frank. Try to figure what you need and buy the best stuff you can afford. The need of tools is quite individual but you might also be interested in what people consider to be the minimum.
Here's Phil Bumbalough's Shop Tool Inventory list (http://benchmark.20m.com/workshop/ShopToolInventory/shoptoolinventory.html)
Along with those tools required for a certain project I can recommend to get a basic assortment of hand tools (planes, saws, chisels, sharpening equipment).

As for your question on DC, I've read several comments and explanations over the years which I can never find when I need them :( but I hope some of our experts will explain. The general conclusion was that a DC setup for stationary tools shouldn't be used along with hand held power tools. So no matter which kind/brand of hand held power tools you are planning to purchase a shop vac is definitely a good investment.
I haven't used those commonly available circular saws but the dust collection on my Festool saw is excellent.

Hope this helps,

Christian

[Greg Mann]

Rob,
Christian is correct that stationary DC and power tool DC are two different things. As far as power tool DC is concerned, Festool is in a class by itself. Their sanders are not only superb machines, they are as dust free as it gets. Until you see a demo you won't believe it.
While Festools are not cheap, they are very reasonably priced on all their perishables; sandpaper, circular and jig-saw blades, etc. with high quality. They do not punish you for buying into their system.

Greg



Thanks for the input everyone.

Karl, I agree that DC is very important. I'll have a DC system for stationary tools so one of the questions I have regarding the GCSS'es is can the non-Festool flavors offer good DC when used with a stationary DC system and power tools that support DC, or is the Festool design simply superior in all aspects.

I've gathered from many of the threads that the primary advantage of non-Festool systems is that you can use existing tools. With the exception of CMS and Belt sander, I'm starting from scratch, so the issue for me boils down to best value. That boils down to this:

Do the non-integrated/non-Festool systems provide equal or better DC when combining multi-brand , DC-capable tools with a stationary DC system, or is the integrated Festool system simply superior in DC and convenience. For me if Festool is clearly superior, the decision is made. If they are close, than it comes down to the difference in total cost.

Shopping is part of the fun !

Thanks as always for your opinions.
Rob