What does it take for a great project?

[Mark Singer]

The focus of SMC is very often which saw to use or which system is better to cut a straight line....which sander leaves the least sawdust....maybe which plane chatters the least. All of these are certainly interesting and valid subjects for a great woodworkers forum. Do these subjects and many others really change the final look of our projects....? The answer is no. If I cut the walnut with a Powermatic or a Jet..it probably won't change much if anything in the final appearance of the project! If I sand it with a Festool or a Bosch, or Dewalt it will probably be just as smooth. To improve a project we need to think deeply about design. Are we limited to just using wood as the only medium? Must a table have 4 legs? What if it had one leg that was metal and it was cast into a concrete base and then covered with gravel...like a flagpole supporting the table...for a patio. About a`week ago I posted "Leave it like it is" in the design forum.....it recieved few posts and several were response from me. As unpopular as it was it is still only on post from the top in the "Design Forum"...the point is no one seems to care much about what something ends up looking like as long as the shavings that fell from their Lie Neilsen Plane were fine and translucent....The shavings end up in the trash....eventually after we fondle them admiring our amazing skill.
We actually end up arguing about which tool is the best for a certain task...what is the point? If we spent a little more time with a blank piece of paper and fresh thoughts about how the next project is to be used,,,what does the the table design need to have to make it really different and still work in concert with the living room? Can I have someone make metal legs.? what about inserting a glass center...if the glass is opague it could be lit from the bottom!
This sort of thinking can make a meaningful difference in the final result. If we put our effort into someting really great and original...we could still have great shavings...speaking of shaving...whose idea was it to put 3 blades in one razor anyway? A creative designer!
This post may not get much response either...it was nice to see that many people knew David Wilcox...even if the concept of the thread was not important. Maybe I am to critical. What is really the difference between your favorite car and one you can't stand ? Probably not the steel or the machines that made it....design, ah yes that may have had something to do with it.:eek:

[Allen Grimes]

Actually Mark, I spend more time on design than anything else. It is very important to me that whatever I make is my own. I buy all kinds of WW magazines and not once attempted to make what was in it because It's just not the same to me. What I do take from them though is the techniques. The whole reason I got into WW is because I wanted very specific stuff that I couldn't find anywhere. So I figured the only way I would get exactly what I want is to do it myself. But I also don't knock anybody for not being original. Some people are satisfied with just building the stuff and even if its somebody else's plan/idea, they are happy with it. And in the end, if somebody is happy, why take their happiness away?

[Jamie Buxton]

Mark --
Like you, I find design much more interesting than tools or techniques. Design is where creativity happens. Design is what distinguishes (I hope) my furniture from everybody else's. You're right that design receives much less attention in online forums. One reason is that design and esthetics are darn difficult to discuss in this medium of short text-based messages. If you and I were talking face-to-face-to-sketchpad, we could more easily talk about why a line should be this instead of that, or why it was important to the overall design. Heck, even if we were face-to-face, I might not be able to explain my design development to you; some times it just happens. So we discuss what we can online -- tools.

Jamie

[Jamie Buxton]

speaking of shaving...whose idea was it to put 3 blades in one razor anyway? A creative designer!


Well, as a professional skeptic, I'd guess that it was not a creative designer, but one of those blasted marketeers. "Gee, if one blade is good, we'll give 'em two! Surely that will get more shelf space at the supermarket!" ... "And if two is selling, we'll give 'em three!" These are the same people who sell you coffee sizes that start at Grande, and cars with engines which will never be used to their full capacity. Do four blades work any better than one? Who knows? It doesn't matter.

Jamie

[Mark Singer]

Jamie,

You probably would not believe I shave once in a while....but I do. The Mach 3 is an amazing razor...smooth , close no cuts and it seems to last forever! It beats the straight razor of years ago and less threatening...3 blades do seem to be more than a marketing scheme...
I saw your post on the rocker's...a few people said" they looked like Maloof "and others said "they are common ...a lot are being made that look like that"...if someone is going to take the time to make a rocker...why not make it original...I guess it doesn't matter.

Well, as a professional skeptic, I'd guess that it was not a creative designer, but one of those blasted marketeers. "Gee, if one blade is good, we'll give 'em two! Surely that will get more shelf space at the supermarket!" ... "And if two is selling, we'll give 'em three!" These are the same people who sell you coffee sizes that start at Grande, and cars with engines which will never be used to their full capacity. Do four blades work any better than one? Who knows? It doesn't matter.

Jamie

[Norman Hitt]

Mark, I have to agree with Jamie about why it is hard to discuss design to any degree on the forum, because the visualization of each individual differs so much. I wish I still had the drawing of an old cartoon I saw that had three sketches. The first was titled "What the Customer Ordered", the second was, "What the Engineer Designed", the third was, "What the Contractor built", and needless to say, NONE were even close to the same.

I've noticed that oft times, when someone posts asking for help on a project and then tries to explain what they have and what they are trying to do, they can't even convey a good enough description for others to visualize the project/problem well enough to be able to give them help.

[Allen Grimes]

First of all, I use the Mach 3 as well, and you really can tell the difference, but Im not so sure its the 3 blades alone, that make it so much smoother.

Anyway, I think another reason why not so many people design there own furntiture is because its so time consuming and some people would rather be in their shop than planning to. And I for one would not ask for any advice on a design because that would taint it. How many times do you think Salvadore Dali asked for advice on one of his paintings? I doubt he ever did. I doubt anybody ever even knew what he was doing, until it was done. Art comes from your soul. Anybody can be taught to rhyme, but that wont make you a poet. Woodworking is the same. That plus the fact that not everybody does it for the same reason.

I used to show people my designs before I finished them but then they'd tell me how I could change it. I'm so anal about my designs being mine that I would scrap them and start something new.

[Gary Max]

When did they start makeing razors with more than one blade?????
Oh never mind.
When I am not building our standard product line-----I build what I want to.
Design----to funny---I have built and sold items that I still ain't figured out what to call them. Most of the time this is caused by jumping in a pile of cut-offs---misc outs-- and scraps and coming out with a product.
Price it and move on to the next project.
I have a small showroom/barn here that is loaded with stuff that is different. A item may sit there for years before the right person sees it.
So the very different---one of a kind---gee whats that---is a very inportant part of what I build. If for no other reason than the fact that I enjoy building them.
So I guess I agree with Mark---go build something no one has ever seem before.

[John Miliunas]

Mark, on my behalf, I find this thread a bit of a bummer. :( Oh NO, NOT because of the concept or thoughts behind the thread but, more so, because yours truly has a real hard time "thinking out of the box" and drawing! I can't hardly draw a straight line w/o the aid of a ruler. (Before you say it, I need the compass to draw a circle, too! :rolleyes: ) I find that my "creative" side comes out more, once I put tools to the media I'm using. For instance, the trim around that recent display case. The inlay on that originated smack dab in the middle of the board. Mocked up a corner and it was OK, but after looking at it for a while, I said to myself, "Self, why not try it off-center?" Once I set that up on the TS, I looked again and decided to go WAY off-center! It was only then that I said, "Hey, that should look OK!" :) I wish I could easier put ideas to paper, so that I could easier see what I'm visualizing in my head. I'm not one of those people who can just sit down and start dreaming something up. It has to "come to me", usually when I'm thinking of something completely different! More often than not, though, I spend too much time doing some sort of mock-up and only then saying, "Hey, that looks like crap!" :o Or, so often, my "design elements" don't even originate until the project takes hold and is already WIP! Then sadly, there are those times where I would like to incorporate some other media, but alas, the funds just don't allow for the customization(s) I would prefer. :(

By and large, I completely agree with what you're trying to convey in your message. I only wish I possessed the skills and creativity to do better designs and planning ahead. Who knows?...Maybe one of these years, the spirit of one of our past or present Masters will partially trickle down to me. Now THAT would be neat! :) :cool:

[Donnie Raines]

To me, it starts with a vision of what I would like to see as the end product. I rarely draw any thing out.....just the way I am. Once I take the steps to select the lumber for my project, I make any modifactions in mind at that time....and this often happens. I may visualize the item to have starigth grain for the front panels(or whatever....) then find a board or two that has some very neat swirly grain that I want to incorparate.....maybe I will then book match this board. I really just let it flow as I go.

Without wanting to sound conceded.....but once you do this for a little while things just kinda happen....they flow with out a lot of effort. Rather then worrying about chip out or burn marks and all the other goofy stuff that can occur during a project. you become wraped up in the project. You enjoy the steps it takes to accomplish your goal. No longer do I get impatient to finish a project...when I did the project would have some flaws that I could have prevented had I just step back and took a break. I will work an area at a time until it is the way I want it. Then I move on...... :cool:

[Dave Brandt]

I with John on this. I can't draw a good stick figure. Most of the customization on my projects is a direct result of a mistake I made somewhere along the line. I'd love to be able to design on paper, but I'm afraid it's not the way my brain is wired. I'll have to stay satisfied with my "customizations", at least the ones that work out OK, and knowing that I was able to follow the plans correctly! It's probably why I don't subscribe to Fine Woodworking anymore, to frustrating to look at the wonderful projects knowing that I'd never be able to produce something so inspiring without the help of a well laid out plan.

Besides, this is the power tool forum! :p

[Carl Eyman]

I bet I don't get general agreement on this thought, but I think it is true. The vast majority of things designed on any given day do not survive the test of time. Much of what is designed is deliberately planned to be obsolete almost immediately. This year's crop of auto models, for instance. In furniture this year's "modern" stye will probably be on the junk pile in a year or so. One year glass and chrome is the big attraction, next year it is something else that won't survive. Where have art deco, modernistic, gone? I have a book summarizing the issues of Popular Mexhanics over some 75 years. They were great on trying to predict what the auto, plane, boat, etc. would look like in the future. I don't think they got one right.

Hence, I say the chances of any one design that comes off the board today of enduring is about that of a snowball in hell.

That is why I'm a period furniture guy. I know these designs have endured and have every reason to suspect they will continue to do so.

Thanks, Mark, for posting this thread. One of my most cherished friends was an industrial designer. He and I argued this point endlessly. It feels good to do so again even though I can't do so with him.

[Shelley Bolster]

Mark - what a terrific thread. It's really refreshing to look into the minds (as in how they tackle the design of a project) of woodworkers and not just at their pocket books (as in how many tools they can possess). Not that I don't read, enjoy and rely on others' tool experiences and opinions but on more than one occasion, I have wondered "were did the woodworking go?" While lurking on another forum a few years ago, a pro who had a "high-end" shop wrote that, on more than one occasion, other woodworkers remarked "that if they had his arsenal of tools, they too could produce fine furniture." He said he now replies to those remarks with something like "and if I had a good set of scalpels - I could preform brain surgery".
John, you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm afraid the side of my brain that produces artistic talent, never developed. So, I find myself concentrating more towards function than form - strength and not style. I am in awe of those who have the ability and talent to join the two worlds together.
Shelley

[Mike Cutler]

Mark. I for one find your ideas for design, and the incorporation of mixed materials to be phenomonal. You bring to the table a design style that may be somewhat esoteric in nature, but none the less thought provoking and challenging. Your use of linear and nonlinear lines gives me ideas that I possibly wouldn't have considered. I admit to being somewhat inhibited to use alternative materials, out of the fear that the final result will look like some WalMart special, this is my own limitation.
For me the ends justifies the means when it comes to projects. I'll use whatever technique or tool I need to get the final result. The wood doesn't know or care if it's being cut with this blade or that one, or this bit or that bit. I have to say that just about everything I do, the final shapes and contours come from rasps, files and sandpaper.
I also find that there are certain design styles and techniques involved in wood working that I can't stand. I don't like to see exposed joinery just for the sake of displaying the joint. And I find that leaving that thin marking line on a row of exposed dovetails to be, not a hallmark or proof of hand done joinery and quality, but sloppy. It doesn't need to be left there.
You have a very good point that we to often become mired down in the "best tool" discussions, but these can be fun and there is knowledge to be passed along.
Don't get bummed out by thinking that people aren't listening or learning, they are. I am currently making a large "shelving system" for the room in our house that we call a library. It involves linear vertical lines and non-linear horizontal lines. The depths of the shelves are non traditional, and non consistent, and the support structure has to incorporate steel pins and threaded rod for strength. The joinery has to be very exact or the project won't got together at completion. There are close to four hundred M&T joints of different types and purpose, so I did need input on some of the "best tool" available. This project is stretching my abilities quite a bit. Both technique wise and design wise. I downloaded Sketch-Up, ala Todd Burch, I looked at the furniture that you've presented us with, and I've spent a lot of time looking a Chico Sakam's work on the Wood Centeral board. Initial drawings were made and modified and full size templates had to be made. There was a hundred hours in this before the wood was even milled, and I already had the basic design inspiration from a piece by C Michael Vogt.
You have a lot to offer Mark, and not just design related. People want to expand their individual horizons, sometimes it just takes someone like yourself to show them that there is a succesful alternative path.
Definitely a little more than my .02 on the subject.
PS. for the record, I use a Mach 3 razor also ;)

[Tyler Howell]

I know there are leaders and followers in every department. All essential to the final product. As far as who gets the most $$$ for the end result:rolleyes: .
In my field the "engineers make it, and the technicians make it work".
Many show there creativity in set-up, and execution of a project, others best work is on paper.
I've seen many a great project killed by poor finish work and a disaster made functional by a little paint.
At this stage I'm happy just to get my corners to line up. Maybe someday I'll be designing my own.:o

[Mark Singer]

It is great to see the responses....I think this kind of comentary starts all of us thinking a bit more about design. Let me first say this is a great forum and many members are greatly skilled in both crafstmanship and design . It just appears to me as I overview the threads and posts, there is a much stronger emphasis on tools , methods and materials and much less on design. If the value of the forum is to help each other and grow...then this type of comentary has an important place. One post suggested " let them be happy just coping anothers design" this is fine and for learning techniques it is a great start. I don't think this thread should make anyone less happy then a "new tool gloat". Many people just bought brand "x" and then there is a post on a better sander brand "Y". How does the first guy feel...Or if you are on a limited budget and you watch all the new tools posted and you may have an old Black and Decker model. Good design is free! Everyone can participate and it costs zero! It is just done by making more of an effort and placing more priority on design before the project begins.
Several suggested it was not an easy topic to discuss in a forum....I disagree.
The books of Krenov, Nakashima, and Maloof discuss in depth philosophy of woodworking and design. Through pictures and words (same medium we share) all of the popular design magazines , Metropolitan Home, House Beautiful, Interiors. Interior Design, Architectural Record, discuss design. Not all the projects are modern either...many are period , yet handled in a creative way.
We all tend to set priorities and I feel we could all benefit from more emphasis on design...it would effect the final result much more than which brand of router you used to to produce it.
Here is another question for all of us shop lovers, "how much time do we actually spend in the shop working on a project, versus discussing our work and others on Saw Mill Creek? Now I have a lot of posts so let me answer first....if I spent as much time in the shop as I do on SMC....(good question for a poll /thread) there would be a lot more furniture in Southern California.....its fun though and I enjoy it...its priorites and relaxation...what can I say:)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Design.....takes a certain type of imagination and then applied logic and discipline to carry it out for me. My nature is such that designing something is a real chore. The one design that I carried out to my satisfaction is a minature gazebo. It stands 6' tall and houses some "concrete geese" my wife likes to dress according to season and holidays. I wanted them off the front steps of our home. While spending 10 weeks on my back recovering from a broken back, I designed this thing in my head. I made one drawing..drew a circle to scale and then bisected angles until I was able to draw an octagon and measure the length of one side of the octagon. I had the length of the rim joises. In the professional work that I'm involved it's heavy into physics and electronics.....symptoms....applied physics.....possible causes....results... So daily I have to think in a very logical way. After doing this for the last 30+ years it's become a hard habit to break....I find it difficult to "think outside of the box". I don't have trouble using different materials to build something ......I have trouble "thinking out side the box" ....imagination to create an overall original design. I can take someone elses design and modify it for my purpose/use yet I lack the patience and imagination to create my own design........... :confused: :o

You did notice Mark.....you are getting responses!

[Jim Becker]

Great thread and topic.

Like many folks who participate in online forums, I have a health enthusiasm for talking about tools. ('One of the reasons I'm still a moderator/host at WOOD Online in the tools and tool buying forum for over five years) Logically, that's also how many folks originally come to these forums...with questions about tools and that's why many sites seem to be almost totally focused on them.

But one of the things I like about SMC is the fact that we do talk about design a lot more than other places...and I hope we do it more with prompting by talented folks like Mark who bring a huge amount of experience in that area from a conceptual (and execution) standpoint as well as folks who have terriffic "how it goes together" skills in joinery, etc. I learn valuable things from all of these conversations that I attempt (despite frequent bouts with premature senior moments...) to bring into my own projects.

When I'm planning a project and even while I'm in process of executing it, I very often find myself standing or sitting there mentally contemplating many design things, both relative to functionality as well as asthetics, including proportion. It can be a very accute "daydreaming" experience sometimes; almost a obsession with getting it "right". "Right", of course, being both an objective and subjective goal. Despite working with paper and software, the process continues in the shop and while it often slows progress on a project, it's a very mentally refreshing exercise for me. I am not a very prolific maker at this point due to time constraints, but I can honestly say that I've been relatively pleased with the projects I've completed and I think that the mental processes have contributed to that greatly, as has the thinks I learn from folks like "you all".

One thing that I suggest we all try to do within our posts/threads about projects is to be sure and explain things about the project itself in terms of why we chose a particular design (whether it's our own or from a plan...'doesn't matter) including the things that drew us to it and the reasons for any changes we may have made along the way. What or who inspired the project and project design? Why did we chose a particular joinery method for components? If we were to do it all over, what would we do different? And to one of Mark's points, what alternative materials could we use to enhance the interest of the project? What did we learn that was new to use from a technique standpoint? (That last one is something very important to our craftsmanship development) And if you are comfortable with the idea, state that you are willing to listen to suggestions/constructive critique to learn from. (Any one thus responding should also be careful to be clear about the "why" part of the suggestions they make in critique situations...explainations are critical to both the critique and the ensuing discussion)

Getting back to Mark's comments about innovation in design and materials, after seeing his work up-close and personal as well as avidly enjoying his commentaries, I'm definitely going to try some "different" things from time to time in projects. They may not necessarily be perfect for in my own home, but will certainly help me grow my skills. Nothing bad about that...I need all the help I can get!

Thanks again, Mark for a great subject! You once again make us think...

[Kevin Arceneaux]

I hope you do not mind a newby commenting.

I can't keep the crayon in the lines, never have and probably never will. Though I can tear it up on a drafting table with a good set of tools. For a newby, technics and equipment are pretty important topics. And this is the best place to get that information. I have a lot of books and mags I have purchased and that is where my wife, son (14), and I get our ideas. We may modify them to get what we want, but none of us has got to the point where we would feel comfortable designing something - ie, does a m&t make sens here, things like that. Maybe one day I will feel confident enough to design my own, but for now I just read and learn.

While I may never post a comment on 98% of the threads here, I have learned a ton just by reading what Jim, Chris, or any of the other pro's here write. And you NEVER get flamed because you ask a question or not have top of the line equipment. I know I have probably posted a question or 2 that was completely dumb. But the folks here have taken their time to help and never made me feel stupid. (I can do that well enough on my own.)

[Donnie Raines]

The only thing that turns me off is when someone tries to be to cutting edge....this of coarse is purely subjective. Take the guy who stack 300 lbs of ham on a bed and called it art.......thats not art in IMHO.....thats a waste of a good lunch. Each of us hold certain aspects of this art more dear to our souls.....I happen to like Shaker style items. But, I may modify something to make it function in manner more appropriate for todays needs.....whatever that may be at the time.

Let me also point out....that when a mistake a is made...it is not a mistake...it is a mark of making this project my own...thus unique in it's on right..... :cool:

[Byron Trantham]

Mark, great thread. I'm a map kind of guy. I need a plan. I try to find something close to what I want and then go from there. I use CAD and Cut List Plus. Before I cut the first piece I have scale drawings and a list of NUMBERED materials. The latest project had over 300 pieces in it! I made a total of 6 mistakes; two missing pieces, one too short and three too long.

I spend a fair amount of time with the computer "looking at the finished product." I think about it while driving or looking at the tube. What can I do to improve the design or perhaps a better way to assemble the thing.

Everything I have built came from my head. Boy does that hurt. :D

For me, the design is the fun, second only to a happy customer!

[Bart Leetch]

Well so far this discussion is real interesting. Thank you Mark.

I have never built any real furniture yet, unless you count the black melamine 8' computer desk I built for the office.. But have built several item for my shop. I keep telling the LOML that I'm getting experience for when I do build furniture.
I have never built anything from some one else's plan. I have gotten ideas from wood working magazines & used several ideas together along with my own ideas to design a project. Most of what I've made has been done this way along with allowances for the material I may have on hand & what I can afford to purchase. Of course being practical is a necessary evil in my mind when it comes to shop furniture, it has to be well built with out too high of a cost (oops present project excluded) :D & I find it a little hard to build what I call fancy design into shop furniture.

All the above being said I do have a sewing machine cabinet to make for the LOML from someone else's plan we'll just have to wait & see how that turns out.

[Bart Leetch]

Mark, great thread. I'm a map kind of guy. I need a plan. I try to find something close to what I want and then go from there. I use CAD and Cut List Plus. Before I cut the first piece I have scale drawings and a list of NUMBERED materials. The latest project had over 300 pieces in it! I made a total of 6 mistakes; two missing pieces, one too short :eek: and three too long.

I spend a fair amount of time with the computer "looking at the finished product." I think about it while driving or looking at the tube. What can I do to improve the design or perhaps a better way to assemble the thing.

Everything I have built came from my head. Boy does that hurt. :D

For me, the design is the fun, second only to a happy customer!


Bryon you only made one mistake the one that was to short. You can trim the long ones to size & you can make the missing ones. :D

[Kurt Aebi]

Mark,

I am with you as far as it not being the particular brand of tool, but far more how well you can use it. Take , for example, the table saw - you can make the same cut with a contractor or cabinet style saw, but how well aligned is the saw will make the big difference. I don't own a "Forest" sawblade, I make do with the "ACE" special and may have to do a little more finishing than the guy with the "Forest" blade. I have worked as a machinist and am very picky about how the machine is setup, aligned, etc. far more than what's on the nameplate. I once watched a man make raised panel doors and face frames for kitchen cabinets on his table saw and they came out great, even without a fancy router!

I also feel that you don't need to ba a fancy designer, architect or engineer to design something or consider what you are doing as designing. To design something, all you have to do is make something your own, either by a unique design or modifying an existing idea or design. You can look at a big grandfather clock in some museum or someone's house or just a picture - if you make a 1/4 scale clock - you have done a design. Don't think too complicated when you hear the word design - choosing your own wood types that are different from the "Plan" is a type of design.

John M. - I saw a picture your Salt & Pepper display - You really were designing when you made that, so don't sell yourself short as a designer. Granted, we aren't at the same level of design as Mark S. is, but he has that special talent to look at something and ta-da he has a design. But you can look at a log in the woodpile and ta-da you come up with some type of bowl or vessel from it - That is design too! Dennis P.'s Knife case was design as well. Coming up with a different finish for a project can be design as well.

Let's not get intimidated about the word "Design", but rather embrace ideas, thoughts and modifications as "Design" and soon we will be thinking more about what is entailed in design than what gadget you used to make the project.

Not that the gadgets aren't cool and fun to use, they are and I have plenty of them and love to find projects to use them, but they don't make the project - You Do! I think this is what Mark was wanting us to get from this thread. Correct me if I am wrong in this thinking, Mark.

Thanks for this thoughtful and informative thread.

I'll bet that most of us forget that there is a design forum and ask about design ideas in the General Woodworking forum.

[Michael Stafford]

Designing a truly original piece is truly hard for me. I almost always try to adapt something that I have seen before and change it so that it suits me.
Basically I want everything perfect in "Mike's" eye and I strive for that. Perfect to me is flawless fit and finish, complementary woods and useful function in even an artsy-fartsy piece. When I sit and design a piece for entry into an art show I use different viewing techniques than when I design a strictly functional piece.
Locally we have art critiques by the head of a gallery and I have started taking my pieces in progress to him for criticism which he willingly delivers. Not for the sensitive but I hope in time it will make my work more original and better.
For me the design process is essential as any piece I work on has to come from detailed plans that I draw on graph paper. Then the selection process for wood comes next. Absolutely have to have the right wood for the vision I have in mind. Lastly is the process and even less important are the tools. I have a bunch of old yard sale and second hand tools. A new tool is almost never a consideration in anything that I build.
Of course I build small things, boxes, small furniture pieces and such and it is strictly a hobby that I supplement by selling things
I wish we could give and receive more design feedback and constructive criticism when we post our projects. For instance if the curve inside a bowl is not what it should be some experienced turner with a good eye can tell us. Even better if he tells you how to improve your technique to achieve that curve.
All in all a good thread

[Chris Padilla]

I enjoy working with my hands. A power tool is nice in my hands as well as a nice chisel or woodie plane. Half the enjoyment of building stuff is the process and the tools...the other half is sitting there staring at your project all finished! :D

Design? Pretty subjective as many have posted here. I need an entertainment center and file drawers and a place to store remotes and a place to hang pictures. From this, a project grows. I guess I design and build from need and not just for the sake of design.

[Pete Lamberty]

Mark, I couldn’t agree with you more. If you remember, I contacted you long ago on just this very topic.
I usually don’t post very often on SMC. It is mostly because I am not interested in tools. I am really only interested in design, materials, and space. Furniture seems like a way that I can put these into a form. When someone says that they have just bought a brand new super duper brand X table saw I think “good for them, if it makes them happy, that’s great”. But I do just fine on the ancient Sears table saw that a friend gave me after it sat in his garage for the previous ten years. I think their money would have been better spent on an art class at the local community college. I have tried to post design related posts on SMC, but there is little response. I am the guy that titles posts like “Hey California”. The posts direct those in the area to some kind of design learning experience. Maybe it is difficult to have a discourse on these posts. I have tried to come up with my own designs, (see http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=7819&highlight=rocker ) I have more designs, but I either don’t have the time or know how to get them made.
I feel that some of the responders to Marks original post don’t even understand what Mark means by the word “design”. Just a feeling here, so I am not sure. Some of the responses seem “off” somehow.
The visitors to this forum seem to be mostly people with technical training/careers. They are into woodworking as a hobby; it probably isn’t a true “life calling” for anyone here. It is probably just a nice distraction after a hectic week at work. And I really believe that this is just fine. The true measure of any undertaking is if it makes you happy then great. The real greats, or future greats in woodworking probably never visit a forum like SMC.
I have some comments to what some of us have said in their posts. Someone mentioned that he only builds period pieces because they have stood the test of time. That’s a fair statement isn’t it? But have you ever thought that at sometime in the past, those same period pieces were the new “thing”. Some person/persons had to be the first to make those, right? If you were alive then would you have thought that this new style of furniture would be in the junk heap next year? I do think that “standing the test of time” is what makes art/design styles worthy of study. If a style is still mentioned in the books or in museums after a decade or two, it has stood the test of time. But just think how great it would be if someone here at SMC started the next great movement in furniture.
Or how about the comment that Dali never asked anyone to critique his work, I maybe wrong but I’ll bet he went to art school somewhere. I bet he got a lot of criticism from his teacher/s. I also am aware that many of the past masters of the art world may have worked alone but they were in “schools” where they could bounce ideas off of each other. I have read Sam Maloofs book and he had a number of people that he learned under. I’ll bet they critiqued his work. You must remember that people do their best when they get help from others.
On to post war sculpture and how it relates to furniture design. Have any of you looked into this? I think it would behoove you, if you are interested in design, to go to the library and take out books related to sculpture (probably contemporary, modern or abstract) and read them. If we choose to design, and to push onto something new, we should not neglect what others have done before us. How many of you “techies” invented your own computer language? Probably none, you learned about what someone did before you, right? I am proposing the same thing. Learn design from those who came before you. Good design isn’t just making something look nice either. It is much more. Take the Bauhaus for example. The use of materials was important to them and how that material explained its use to the viewer. Say a chair has a leather seat and backrest and a wood frame. Just looking at the chair you will understand that the leather will be soft against your body while the wood will be hard and strong to support your weight. They also did similar things with steel tubing and leather. Without even sitting in the chair, the chair is telling you a story of how it will support you. Did you know that the people who designed these chairs actually thought about this? I didn’t until a teacher explained it to me. We know that they thought about these things by what some of the artists have written about their own work. An artist named Morris wrote extensively about how and why he designed his sculptures the way he did. Of course there are others that didn’t feel a need to explain their work. So it is difficult to know their reasons.
As for new designers, there is a guy (can’t remember his name) in Wisconsin who is making exact replicas of historic Shaker furniture out of stainless steel. Just the change in material is considered interesting in the art/design world.
Some of you have expressed the thought that they just aren’t creative. I believe that you couldn’t be more wrong. You just don’t know how. If you follow the above link to my post about the rocker that I designed, you will see that I explained my creative process. In that post I offered to answer any questions as to how I come up with ideas (I do not profess to be a great designer but I do feel that I can do it to some degree). I did not get one response. Hmmm… Maybe you just don’t want to be creative. And remember that’s okay. Whatever makes you happy.
I don’t like the idea of getting a critique from just anyone though. Although some people are naturally talented and may have an “eye” for design, I would prefer to stick with comments from educated/successful people. Nothing personal, I just don’t want poor criticism of my work.
Well I guess that this has to be my longest post. It does seem to be a bunch of thoughts all thrown together. If you made it this far, go reward yourself with a cookie.
Although it was not my intent, I probably made some of you angry. I really didn’t mean to do this. These are just some of my thoughts on the topic at hand.
Any thoughts on all of this are appreciated. Pete

[Jamie Buxton]

Several suggested it was not an easy topic to discuss in a forum....I disagree.


Mark, I'd love to see more discussion of design in this forum. Perhaps you who finds it easy can show the rest of us how to do it.

Jamie

[Byron Trantham]

Bryon you only made one mistake the one that was to short. You can trim the long ones to size & you can make the missing ones. :D


Ya, ya but I still had to stop and "fix'm" :mad: :D

[Shelley Bolster]

Hmmm... Pete, I real enjoyed reading your post (as well as everyone elses who contributed) on the subject of design, (Thanks again for starting the thread Mark) and I thought I would respond but, I because of this
I would prefer to stick with comments from educated/successful people. I figured I should keep my opinions to myself.

[Donnie Raines]

Pete,

For the record, I have attend a few of Marc Adams classes, a few of Lonnie Birds classes as well as some with Glen Huey. Does that quailfy me into the category you speak of?

(deleted some of my prior comments)

[Byron Trantham]

Pete,

For the record, I have attend a few of Marc Adams classes, a few of Lonnie Birds classes as well as some with Glen Huey. Does that quailfy me into the category you speak of?
I know I don't qualify; I came from the "shcool of hard knocks!" :rolleyes:

[Michael Stafford]

For years I never considered selling anything that I made. Everything was for family and friends. A few years ago, about 10 now, a friend kept pestering me to enter boxes of all things in art shows. I thought she was crazy.
She eventually talked me into doing it. And I entered 3 pieces into a juried show. Two were juried in, both sold, one to the judge. Later he contacted me and asked to sell in his gallery. I did and he gave me lots of feedback and sold a lot more of my work than I could produce. I was and still am working full time so I could ony make so much stuff. After a while it became a whole lot like work and I was not able to keep him supplied.
I continued to enter art shows and was invited to sell at other galleries. I still sell at one where they allow me send them items whenever I have anything that I want to selll
The point of all this is that I have been getting good feedback for a number of years about what people like and don't like. It has been my responsibility to properly use that information and make things that people like.
This has opened up my eyes to the concept of good design and at least I am considering it when I build something. Not everything is a hit. There are plenty of misses and they fill my closet. But at least I am trying.
SMC is helping me learn techniques, tools and hopefully design. That is why I find this forum so valuable. I figure I can learn from all kinds of people not just the learned...

[Pete Lamberty]

Hmmm... Pete, I real enjoyed reading your post (as well as everyone elses who contributed) on the subject of design, (Thanks again for starting the thread Mark) and I thought I would respond but, I because of this I figured I should keep my opinions to myself.

Shelly, by no means should you keep your thoughts to yourself about this discussion. I only meant that I would prefer to get crits about my WORK from knowledgable people. Your two cents worth is just as important as mine is. Or anyone elses for that matter.

[Dean Baumgartner]

I'll throw my 2 cents worth here too. The question is one of if you are focused on the journey or the destination and what your particular destination is. Is your destination to have a fine example of what ever it is you are building when, or is it to spend time relaxing in your shop or is it to learn and expand your skills.

I think that a big part of the reason that the design doesn't get as much discussion as what tools or techniques to use is that for most of us this is a hobby and so are more interested in the doing than in the final product. That's not to say that we don't want that final product to be both functional and at least hopefully not too much of an eye sore but we tend to be more interested in the project being well executed from a technical and process standpoint. None of this is meant to imply that we shouldn't be interested in the esthetics of our projects, in fact knowing that we are somewhat blinded to them by our desire to use that "new tool" even if it's not the right thing to be doing just because we can says that we need to consciously think about design.

I know that I have been thinking about ways to enhance what I build mainly at the insistence of LOML because she was tired of eveything that I made looking kind of boxy (don't let anybody tell you the world isn't flat) but in the process of trying to add these embellishments I've found myself pushing and expanding my skills and gotten more enjoyment out of the whole process.


Thanks for this topic Mark, seems to made many of us step back and think.


Dean

[Carl Eyman]

Pete made the point that period designs were new once. Of course, but all pieces designed the same day as Godards Newport desk, for instance, did not become immortal. My point: most new designs are failures; only a very few endure. If I am going to take the time to build something, I want it to endure; so I choose designs I know have endured. This does not mean we shouldn't be brave enough to innovate, but be prepared for the failure. I am seldom willing to take the chance.

[Pete Lamberty]

[QUOTE=Donnie Raines]Pete,

For the record, I have attend a few of Marc Adams classes, a few of Lonnie Birds classes as well as some with Glen Huey. Does that quailfy me into the category you speak of?

(deleted some of my prior comments)[/QUOTE

Hi Donnie, I, too, have attended five classes at Marc's school and about the same at Arrowmont. There wasn't much design education at either of these. Just not enough time. I have taken a number of architecture classes, but have a long way to go. A lot of design education here. I would say that I am barely qualified to make any comments about anothers work. When I do critique someones work I usually tell them that I am NOT a professional at this and to take my comments with a grain of salt. It is difficult to say whether you/me is qualified by identifying the classes that we took. As I eluded to in my first post, some people are naturally gifted whereas others have a great education and still others have no clue. Even though they have no formal education, a naturally gifted individual can have a great eye for design. But think about it, if you were to design and build something, would you want to take advice from me or Mark Singer? I might be able to point out a few things that you might think about but there is no doubt that Mark would give you a much more helpful critique than I could. And how would you like to take design direction from someone who hasn't a clue? If you follow this persons advice your project that has some promise might turn into total rubbish.

[Donnie Raines]

Pete,

I think you are reading to much into this topic. I hate to speak for Mark, but I think his goal was to spark a fire within each of us to strive to do our best....but to try to reach beyond that. THAT being creativity.

I felt that there was a good deal of design application discussed at Marc Adams as well as Lonnie Bird. It may have been along the lines of the more tradtional styles out there.....but there was plenty of dicussion on design. Sorry you did not gather that from your class.

[Scott Coffelt]

Mark,

I can always count on you to spark the creative side of things. I think it's advantage you have for being in your line of work. I can only imagine the hours you have spent studying the art of design. I see it in your work. I find the most satisfaction out of items that I built which reflect an inner thought. Some thoughts are sparked by something seen, but still there's an internal visualization which morphs into the finished product.

I think we tend to focus on tools and sometimes with techniques on forums for one simple reason, it's easy and many can relate regardless of what the fancy for design.

With many of the projects I build for clients, they've commissioned me to build something specific (which more times than not is a reproduction) and lacks the ability to deviate from design. Not sure if that holds true for others or not, but I know many folks often think of themselves as not really creative but then turn things I could never imagine on a spinny thing.

[Bill Arnold]

As a newbie to the Forum, let me jump in here for a moment. It's refreshing to hear the different input regarding design. As some have said, it's real easy to get caught up in the 'tools of the trade' and brag about having this or that expensive gadget. What really matters is the dedication of the individual craftsman. I'm reminded of two guys I worked with in a high-end cabinet shop: one had every tool imaginable, usually the most expensive version and had to transport them in a large roll-around cart along with many individual boxes; the other had a basic assortment of what it took to build with and most of it fit in a standard-sized tool box he could carry. The end result from each was identical.

For myself, I've built very little from a published plan. Early on, it was the easy was to go but, as I learned more about the techniques and processes of woodworking, I found myself modifying a plan to suit me or simply sitting at a blank CAD screen and starting to create. At times, I take inspiration from something I've seen and give it a tweak here and there to add my personal touch. More often than not, I spend as much time on the design process as I do on building a piece.

I'm almost finished with a pair of end tables for my wife's mother. They match a coffee table we gave her a few months ago. She would never pay what these tables are worth and I certainly don't expect anything except her appreciation. They gave me an opportunity to try out a couple of techniques and to practice on better finishing processes; i.e., more than just a couple of coats of poly!

While many of my colleagues prefer to use pencil and paper to feel more 'connected', I feel just as connected to a piece dabbling with it on my computer. I'm still struggling with learning DesignCAD; I've toyed around with AutoCAD; I guess I'm stuck in a rut with a 2D program I've used forever that enables me to draw and modify elements very easily. I have no problem 'seeing' the finished product in a 2D environment; my wife admits that she has to trust my judgement because while she knows what she'd like for our home, she can't draw it or see what I see in a drawing.

I could design and build stuff all the time and be happy as a lark. Final sanding and finishing has always brought out the impatient side of me more than anything else. I've spent more time over the past year reading, practicing and asking questions on forums about finishing processes. Some of the information is finally getting through this thick skull of mine and I expect to see even better results going forward. Old dogs and new tricks, you know!

Well, I've gotten entirely too wordy. Thank you for your time.

[Allen Grimes]

Wow this thread, is filling up too fast to keep up with. I'm almost finished reading all the posts though.Mark when I said let people be happy with what they do, I didn't mean not to inspire creativity. I was really just trying to say that if somebody doesn't want to be creative why force them. Either way, my post was badly placed as I see so many people here are actually interested in designing, but doubt themselves far too much.

I consider myself an artist. Not because I feel that my work is such high quality that I can call myself that, but because I dont do just one thing. I draw, I write poetry, I do a little bit of leatherwork, I used to do tattoos, woodworking is my newest medium, but I will also be learning metalworking, and I will start painting soon as well. Getting to my point, a lot of people dont like my work. I used to let whoever read my poetry but, now only a few people get that oportunity. Because, some people just dont understand. That never stopped me from writing. I never decided that something of mine wasn't good enough, because of what somebody else felt. Your design is who you are. And drawing skills can be deloped over time.

John M. you mentioned that your ideas pop in your head when you're not even thinking about woodworking. So do mine. I try my hardest to get them down on paper and sometimes by the time I find any I forget it all. But you can't give up. You win some you lose some. BTW when I draw up my first ideas they are always sloppy. I dont try for quality until I get the basic idea perfect.

I know in grade school everybody was taught to make rough drafts. Well I can garantee you that even the best designers still do.

[Pete Lamberty]

Maybe as Donnie implied, I am reading to much into this discusion and leaving behind the spirit of what Mark intended for this topic. Hopefully Mark will voice his opinion on what I have said as well as everyone elses opinions. I took his comments to mean that we should almost strive to make our craft into an art through good design and to discuss it at SMC. I went to the design forum to read his post that he directed us to. By reading it and about the spilled paint, I felt that Mark was trying to get us to see our craft as an art. I think Mark sees his work as an art. Which I think it is. Or at least he strives for it to be art. Philip Johnson did a lot of work to promote architecture as an art at the Museum of Modern Art in New York during the thirty's, forties, and fifties. If I may, I will call furniture a subspecies of architecture. I feel that museums have not embraced furniture as an art. There are a number of examples of pieces in museums but I don't think the museums have really felt our craft is an art. From this and some of his commments about cars, etc. I formulated my impression. Of course, I think Mark would like all of this design stuff to be discussed on a regular basis here at SMC. But, I do not want to put words into Marks mouth. What I have written is the way I understood his intial post. I could be totally wrong , as I often am. ;)

As far as my reference to Marc Adams School and Arrowmont. By no means did I mean to devalue the expericnces that I had at them. They are both great schools to go to and I would advise everyone to attend them. I think the fact that I went to each of them five times tells you that they are great. I wouldn't have gone back to them if I didn't like them. Relatvely speaking, although design was discussed at both schools through out the weeks I was in attendence. By no means did either school discuss design to the extent that it is taught in my architecture classes.

Maybe we should have a poll as to see what people think of woodworking. Do you consider it an art form or is it a craft?

Bye for now. Pete

[Ian Barley]

Mark

Thanks for an interesting thread that has prompted some thoughtful responses.

I agree with you that we sometimes become tool focussed on this forum. I think that this is natural as the discussion of existing items is necessarily easier than a discussion of one that doesn't yet exist.

I also think that for most folks here the journey is if anything more important than the destination. At the other end of the scale, for somebody like me who spends most of his time repeating the same item, the destination is way more important than the journey.

I also think that "design" is a word that engenders cautious responses from many. People think that unless something is striking or ornametal or cutting edge it isn't design. Most of my design work takes place on shop jigs which most people would see as bits of MDF which are screwed together and have data scribbled on them in thick black marker. Most of them take me an hour or so to make. frequently I have spent months mulling them over in my head to get to that point. I think that this is me designing.

I am very much a believer in form following function. That does not mean everything should be utilitarian but I am always concerned when most of the work in an item is decorative or even more worrying, when the decoration in the design gets in the way of the use of the item. If your Mach3 was given a pink lace border it might be an interesting design departure but it wouldn't add anything to the product.

[Jerry Olexa]

Wow.. What a thought provoking thread!! As I read the replies, I'm hit with our individual differences: i.e., our likes/dislikes and our various skills/interests. Some of us simply hate design. As Ken said, it's a chore for him. Others have imagination and creativity (and artistic skill) and love it!(like Mark) So, first of all , you have to WANT to do it. Some have no such desire. Others (and I am one of these) ENJOY the PROCESS , as Chris P, said so well. The building to me is 80% of the joy as you create/build something. In my case, I seldom use plans and this is one nuance where we are all "designing" at a basic level or at least, simply"modifying" an existing plan. I do agree we tend to get obsessed with the BEST tool (I'm usually guilty) and the process of building vs design. But design, in my judgement, is simply not for everyone! Everyone is "wired" differently! I would use the analogy of an architect (designer) vs the builder (foundation, framing, etc)vs the craftsman(doing intricate moldings in a curved staircase). Each performs a different task based oh his skills/experience and interests. For example (i may get thrown off the forum for this) but I have no interest in turning but I highly respect the craftmanship of others that do. I see it on the NYW or many of the WW shows but its not for me. Others of you probably don't care much about raised panels, router techniques, finishing, DC but those are some of the areas that interest me currently. I've rambled on but my thought is not all WANT to do design (this simply doesn't interest them) nor are they ABLE to do it. It is not a skill they possess. Anyway, I applaud those that can and do. That is their passion. Personally,I like to develope my own plans and then dive into the project and enjoy the process and journey...Pardon the rambling of an old discontent..Trust the above will be taken in the respectful manner it was intended..Now, back to the shop..

[Mark Singer]

I am really encouraged by the responses! Unfortunatley my day and evening are full with client meetings and the grand opening of a retail project....I am looking forward to carefully reading and responding to your posts. I encourage everyone to respond regardless of design experience. Keep in mind the tools we love are great because they are well designed...why not apply great design to each project?,

[Fred Chan]

Hmmm... I had not really thought much about 'design' before reading this thread. I applaud anyone who can create something that started out as nothing more than a tree. One thing that came to mind though while reading the responses is that designing isn't anything more than taking an existing object and applying you own personal taste to it. Isn't a Chippendale chair, shaker chair, or windsor chair just a chair with added artistic elements? Take tables for example, todays designers have merely taken a design created by a previous craftsman and added their own ideas to create something new. The original caveman (cavewoman) that decided flat rocks made better tables than round rocks or that wood was a better material than stone for tables were designers. (Saw a granite table the other day, does this mean that caveman was ahead of his time?):rolleyes: At any rate I always start every project with the same plan; to end up with a project that I can be proud to be able to say "I made it". :D By the way I must be a 'Normite" my razor of choice is an electric Phillishave. Them triple blade razors just slice off three times more skin.:eek:

[Frank Pellow]

Mark, I have to agree with Jamie about why it is hard to discuss design to any degree on the forum, because the visualization of each individual differs so much. I wish I still had the drawing of an old cartoon I saw that had three sketches. The first was titled "What the Customer Ordered", the second was, "What the Engineer Designed", the third was, "What the Contractor built", and needless to say, NONE were even close to the same.

I've noticed that oft times, when someone posts asking for help on a project and then tries to explain what they have and what they are trying to do, they can't even convey a good enough description for others to visualize the project/problem well enough to be able to give them help.

Norman, I remember that cartoon and, in fact, I had it pinned up beside my desk for about 5 years. As a software architect, the cartoon served as a constant reminder to me to attempt to bring all three views as close together as possible.

[Frank Pellow]

I would like to thank you Mark for starting this thread and also to all those who have contributed their thoughts.

I find the design phase of most projects to be very rewarding. In fact, I have spent many pleasant hours designing and planning things that I have never built or done. That goes for furniture, toys, buildings, home renovations, landscaping, gardening, software, hiking trips, software, and many many other things in life. Maybe it is designing, maybe it is dreaming, maybe it is wishing, probably it is a combination of all these things.

People reading the threads about the construction of my workshop will probably have observed just how much design, planning, consideration of alternatives, and prototyping that I have done. That is fairly typical of most my endevours.

Turning to tools. I am very attracted to tools that show inovative design. Those are tools that I read about extensively and the ones that I eventually purchase. And, this does not just apply to woodworling tools but to gardening tools, auotomotive tools, kitchen tools, etc. Good design and the good execution of that design is of paramount importance.

[Ted Shrader]

Mark & All -

Looking at the title of your post and addressing it stictly - What does it take for a great project?.

I ask, What will/did I learn? and What new skill will be/have improved? Sometimes with simple projects speed/efficiency is the improved factor. With more complex ones, I will deliberately try to add challenging features to the construction as a method to improve my skills.

Regards,
Ted

[Bill Arnold]

Here's the cartoon...


http://www.monolithic.com/pres/tree_swing/treeswing.jpg

[Frank Pellow]

Here's the cartoon...

That's not the cartoon I remember. But, it is probably better.

[Jim Becker]

I ask, What will/did I learn? and What new skill will be/have improved? Sometimes with simple projects speed/efficiency is the improved factor. With more complex ones, I will deliberately try to add challenging features to the construction as a method to improve my skills.
Excellent response, Ted.

[Joe Mioux]

What was the question.............?

I was online when Mark posted this thread early this a.m. I immediately wanted to post something, but I chose to wait. I spent a good part of today thinking about the question.

I have read this thread with great interest. My real job is all about design, just in a different media. Line, form, space, texture and color are design elements I use. Rhythmn, scale, balance, proportion are also elements I use daily. Using numbers also plays a part (Fibonacci numbers). Have I transferred theses concepts to wood? No. Am I inspired to do so? Yes. Do I need help? Yes.

I have an entertainment center that needs to be designed and built this winter. Is anyone willing to help guide me?

Best regards to you all
Joe

[Mark Singer]

Well , I would like to thank you for wonderful , thought provoking responses. Design is all around us...when Chris said he likes the feel of a tool in his hand,he was implying "making" rather than "designing". The irony is if the tool wasn't properly designed , he would not enjoy it as much. People could have been making the same circular saws until, a Festool designer, got an idea for a plunging , guided saw , that is safer and makes great cuts, Will it soon be outdated....probably...but it is a great advance. The point is even if you are a tool lover and are not interested in design , you cannot avoid it...design is inherent in all the things we love and use daily.

Why not put the extra effort into making each piece perfect (as you can) for its intended use. If it is a cabinet to hold glasses....measure the glass so they will fit nicely. Okay, this is someting we all probably do when we make a cabinet for glasses. The point is, it is a begining founded in function. Regardless of ones ability, design should take place at some level and once you become sensitive to it, you will start to become a better designer.
When I have lectured to architectural students , I tell them to picture a building site,an undisturbed , pristine knoll. It is in the form it was created and undisturbed since the beggining of time. Now, if you are the architect who is to design a home for this site, you will feel the importance of a great design that will rest there. The weight of the buldozer is on your shoulders! (And God is watching....)This puts a sence of responsibility on the designer....as it should.
Now, a tree takes many years to grow. If we are to give this tree a new life as furniture...we should feel a sence of resposibility. As in nature , no two trees grow the same....why should the pieces that come from it? We are all different and have different asthetic and physical differences. These differences should be revealed and celebrated. It is a lost opportunity if we don't make the attempt.. The journey on the path of becoming a designer is long...it is a lifes work, but once you embark...the is no other way.
If the project I am designing is a table...I often look at many in books...once I find one that I like I will begin to sketch something similar. Either by hand or using a Cad program. Then I fold it up and carry it in my pocket for sometimes weeks...often taking it out and changing it...getting a new piece of paper and a better sketch. In a few days that one will be replaced by a better one. This is only one method. I will consider the overall design and then sketch the connections...the joinery.
I have also started by making a quick prototype and use it as a study model, cutting adding pieces until it feels right...then I start the real thing.

Design includes function, ergomomics,esthetics and can even become art if we are fortunate. An "inclusive" design seeks to satisfy all. I have a great respect for history and tradition...it is where we were and is the shoulders we can stand on to see where we are going. I don't think the time we live in should be ignored...it is as real as any other parameter. Many years ago only small pieces of glass could be made...we needed wood frames (mullions) to hold these pieces....today large sheets of glass can be made....should we take a view of the ocean and segment it when the size of glass is no longer a limitation? The view is more sacred than any attachment to the past. Pete is correct,all classical styles were modern in their day...then there was "neo" or new and the transition became the new modern. Each of us have prefernces in style and these should be recognized in our work...this is what will make it unique...since each one of us sees beauty and the world in a different way.
The process of design is very individual and what works for me may not work for you.
I do not consider my work "cutting edge" . If you look at my dining chairs they are derived from a French Provencial form and pared down to a minimal interpretation. Pete Lamberty's Rocker is wonderful...it looks similar to other rockers and yet it is completlety unique. The desk I made for my daughter is like a roll top desk , with the roll top removed. It is a modern interpretation of a traditional design.
Before I had a compete shop I would design my work around the tools and abilites I had at the time. I would always try to strech my ability with each project and maybe even buy a new tool to do a certain project.
I appreciate all your responses and feel we can each improve our skills as crafstman and as designers...to make wonderful projects that are as unique as each of us. Once you take the first step which is to think about the design...it all begins.

[neil radcliffe]

Hi Mark,
Being an mechanical engineering designer (one off special machines) thinking outside the box is something that I do most days its my job. being fairly new to woodworking the design side I find difficult as I do not know the properties of woods and what can be achieved with it, I am on a steep learing curve at the moment. I think that the use and knolage of the tools enables the design of pieces to progress from simple nail and glue boxes to the type of designs you see on this site. However unless you take the time to design you never get what you want.

[Alan Turner]

Great thread, Mark. Thanks for starting it, and adding to it. I am interested in design, and find it to be the most challenging part of a project. I don’t often go to the design forum here at SMC, and so missed your initial thread.

The Furniture Society speaks of furniture making as a “functional art.” I think that is correct, and says much about design. One decides to make a “thing.” The project is most often not written on a blank slate, but rather starts with a set of parameters which first include function. I..e., what is the need to be filled by the project. A table? A piece for sitting? A container to hold life’s physical debris? To display, to hide, to consolidate, to improve efficiency? The next fixed input is frequently size. Where is to go, and how much space is available for it to be comfortable. And, what materials can the worker handle? For me, wood is my only skill. I suppose I could explore concrete, or glass, or leather, and may someday do so, but at least for me, wood is pretty much sufficient at this time, which is not to criticize those with broader interests or skills.

When I first realized that design was as important, and sometimes more important, than other issues, I tried to find a way to study furniture design. I could find no local school which taught furniture design. And, the literature is somewhat weak on this subject as well, at least from what I have been able to uncover. In 1989 Seth Sem, of RISD, wrote a book, published by Taunton, entitled “Designing Furniture.” It was out of print, but I was able to secure a copy through Amazon, and read, and reread it, with much interest. I found it helpful, but not wonderful. It should probably be reprinted, but I have heard that it needs to be updated to cover CAD, and that has not yet happened.

I have only built two pieces that I did not design. One was a copy of a modern maker’s chest of drawers, taken from a pix on his web site, borrowed without permission. I was so embarrassed about having done this, that I immediately gave the piece away, and when I see it I am reminded of my gross error in judgment. It is painful.

The second piece is one I am now building, and it is flat out a reproduction of a famous piece. I am building it as part of a class, and I took the class in order to learn carving, which is a skill I felt I needed, and would find difficult to learn without assistance. It is the only piece I have ever built from a print, and reading this complex print has itself been an interesting challenge. The piece is a Newport Kneehole Desk, by John Townsend, and it was drawn by the teacher from the original, which is in the RISD Museum, with permission. The materials supplied also included about 200 reference photos, and I had to commit to not use the piece for commercial gain, so this piece will live with Turner family. A photograph of another Townsend desk, similar, is here. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/jtwn/ho_10.125.83.htm

I have long admired many of the design elements, and techniques, of the Eighteenth Century American makers. But my understanding of furniture from this period has been greatly enhanced by this project. As I build it I am “discovering” the ingenuity of the design, and only just beginning to understand why it is so attractive.

Design which is wonderful, as another said above, will stand the test of time. I look at my early work, and find that much of it has poor design characteristics. Much of the reason was a lack of understanding of good design, and contributing to this was probably a lack of ability to execute certain techniques which would be required to incorporate elements which would have improved the design. Hence, I feel that the frequent discussions on this board of tools, and techniques, is critical to being able to execute that which is in the mind’s eye. Probably none of us went through the rigorous apprenticeship program of 5 or more years where the basic, and the sophisticated, skills would be learned, even before the importance of the skills would be understood. People like Klaus and Frid did go through these programs, in Europe, but this is not the way it is done today, at least in this country.

Several years ago, on Knots, I started a design thread on designing a “new” and different cabriole leg. I appreciated the fine comments of others, and designed and mocked up several legs until I got it the way I wanted it, and built a pair of tables with this leg, which are on my web site. Frankly, I do not particularly care for this leg. And so I went about designing another cabiole leg, one that I hoped I would like better. This time, I used basic proportions tested by history. The size of the ankle in relation to the knee; the height of the knee in relation to the height of the leg, etc. I mocked it up several times until I was happy, and it is now on the Queen Anne table on my web site, and I think it is far superior. So, I borrowed much from “classic” design principles, but designed and built a leg which is in fact my own. It is not from another’s work, although it surely is similiar.

All of this said, design is a wonderful topic which I much enjoy, but I do think that tools and techniques are integrally related to one’s ability to produce effectively that which may be imagined.

Talk about being wordy, wow.

Alan

[Mark Singer]

The responses from Ted and Alan are excellent, and I agree. There is nothing wrong with doing a project which is just copied if you are learning skills of crafstmanship that will make you a better woodworker. There is nothing wrong withh just having fun in the workshop just trying different things for the heck of it. Years ago when I first bought Tage Frids book, I would try a different joint or technique on scraps of wood to learn all the techniques I could. The more ability you have as a crafstman, the more potential you have to design without limits, since you will be able to execute every concept without being limited. But design and craftsmanship are not interchangable...one does not replace the other. In tennis you need a great serve and even if you have one, sooner or later the ball will come back and then you need your ground strokes etc. As an architect, I must design for the clients needs, use my technical ability to detail so that water is kept out, and I must be able to verbally present my project before the City's Design Review Board for approval. If I am not strong all of these areas....the project will not be sucessful. If I can't get it approved, it will never be built!

Since for most of us this is a hobby,you can just have fun. I find that applying careful design improves the project and my rewards many fold. The point of the thread is not to stop being a crafstman...it is to know that there is a whole wonderful area of design and to consider every time you start a piece. If you end up coping exactly...that is fine...you are having fun and learning other skills. Eventually you should start designing and crafting work and here the rewards are even greater.

If you are in the business of making furniture, I think good design is important to your success. Maloof can get a handsome sum for one of his rockers. If he never took the time to design and refine it, he would have never been as sucessful. The guys who are copying him....well what is the point..he is still making them better and he is in his eightys! If I copied a Frank Lloyd Wright house...it would not be original , it would not be as good, it would not respond to the needs of the client or the particular site and it would not express what vision I have as a designer.
The more skills you have and use the well rounded you become as a woodworker. Your enjoyment does not diminish with each learned skill...it grows tremendously and design is just one more (big one ) skill to begin thinking about. Think about it.

[Dave Avery]

The process of design is very individual and what works for me may not work for you.


Mark,

I think you've answered your own question regarding design and the lack of discussion about design on our forum. Design is incredibly personal. While I always comment about those original designs that I like, I'd never tell someone that I dislike their design. I spend a great deal of time planning the design of what I do, but I consult only LOML on the decisons that are being made because we are the customers of all of my current work.

BTW.... please keep up the thought-provoking threads and work. Dave.

[Rich Konopka]

As a relatively new woodworker I haven't had much time to think about designing a project. I am most proud of my time spent in the shop because for once in my life I have the time. I love to just go down and lose track of everything else. I don't care that I do not turn bowls or make reproductions. I only care that I now have free time to escape the day to day stuff and learn how to use my tools properly and safely.

I have taken several woodworking classes and I have to admit that I don't like following the drawings they provide. It made my projects feel canned and not of my own. However, I took the classes to learn woodworking and shop safety not design.

I like swimming the creek to learn about tools. I admit I have not thought of it as a place to discuss design. Afterall, I am a techie and I love my gadgets. :D I admit it. Guilty as charged. :p Based on the threads about tools I'm not the only tool junkie. :rolleyes:

At some point in my woodworking lifetime I will put the design of the laptop table that's in my head unto paper and build it. For now I have a workshop to design and build. I am tired of looking at the cold concrete walls of my basement.

Gobble - Gobble

[Mark Singer]

Rich,
If you think about where things should go when building your shop....you are designing. If you happen to make a skech of the layout...you are really designing. If you don't make any sketches and give it no thought....good luck!

[Donnie Raines]

Rich,
If you think about where things should go when building your shop....you are designing. If you happen to make a skech of the layout...you are really designing. If you don't make any sketches and give it no thought....good luck!
So if you think something out, but make very limited sketches....what does that mean? :rolleyes:

This topic/discussion is very thought provocating. I simply view something I like, take a few measurements and then go to town. I do this on big and little things. Cleary the choice of lumber is in additon to the project phase. I dont know....I find that if I work from a general plan I make mistakes.....or if I draw a detailed picture...I make mistakes. So I simply write sown rough measurements.

I feel that each of us have our own means of operations. Professional, serious hobbist or the beginer...we all have our own way. To say that you have to do this, or you must do that is a bit unfair(though, I would agree that someting on grand scale would require much thought). I feel very comfortable with my means operation and I suspect that many others prefer a more detailed means to achive thier goal. I dont know....I guess thats some sort of talent i have(as I reach around to pat myself on the back.... :cool: :rolleyes: )....I dont need to make detailed project pictures to achive my goal.

Maybe thats why I am just a serious hobbist... ;)

[Jim Becker]

I simply view something I like, take a few measurements and then go to town. I do this on big and little things.
Donnie, I think that many of us work in this manner. But do you also find yourself stepping back and looking at the work in progress and envisioning different ways to proceed and then making a choice based on those mental considerations? I do that a lot and consider it part of the design process.

[Alan Turner]

Probably all of us design on the fly, to a greater or lesser extent. I have found, with increasing experience, that the more I draw and plan at the beginning, instead of on the fly, the finished piece is better proportioned. This is not to say that through error, or material shortage, or whatever, that there are no changes, but as I gain experience there are fewer changes.

[Donnie Raines]

Donnie, I think that many of us work in this manner. But do you also find yourself stepping back and looking at the work in progress and envisioning different ways to proceed and then making a choice based on those mental considerations? I do that a lot and consider it part of the design process.
Sure....I do that.

I never question the idea/defintion of design as it is being applied here. I feel that there is simply a varity of ways to accomplish ones goal....drawing/skecthing may or may not be a part of that process. Yes, as a project moves along I step back and evaluate to item. But I do not draw things out in detail at the begining of a project.

I also think that ones taste in projects should be considered here. Often when a project is more cutting edge(something other then the norm) it is reffered to as "sophisticated". While Shaker design is rather simple in structure, i would not call it "unsophistacated"(allow me to point out that while I am prevy to Shaker style, I admire other styles, thus I am not defending the style that I choose to work in..simply drawing a comparison). The more cutting edge a project is, the more detail within the item as well is usually found, thus would be logical that they require more thought as to how they should/could be constructed. This must be consider when we talk about design. Why over analyze something if it does not require it....thats my take.

[Donnie Raines]

Probably all of us design on the fly, to a greater or lesser extent. I have found, with increasing experience, that the more I draw and plan at the beginning, instead of on the fly, the finished piece is better proportioned. This is not to say that through error, or material shortage, or whatever, that there are no changes, but as I gain experience there are fewer changes.
Alan,

I agree! In my original post I stated that through the process of building things, you gain/retain(we hope.. :D ) the knowledge of what works and what does not...what makes things easier...and what does not....what makes things safer as well.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

:confused: Maybe I've missed something but.....I worked as a draftsman as a young man.....while I'm perfectly capable of making pencil and paper drawings....I have and use a couple of cad programs .......in designing my shop and landscaping my yard...setting up my sprinkler system......I, also, in my everyday job, envision things..3 dimensional images in my head....I have to...on the fly....in the course of troubleshooting MR imaging problems. I, also, envision things in my mind when designing / building. The gazebo I talked about.....I measured the tallest of those >>>>> geese and used it's height to set the height of the gazebo proportionally. I don't think things have to be drawn in the course of designing. My designing problem comes from finding original lines or ideas that I like and think will be liked by others. Maybe Mark's idea of sketching and carrying it in my pocket while viewing other things and updating as ideas come would remedy my "chore"?.......More questions............

[Donnie Raines]

:confused: Maybe I've missed something but.....I worked as a draftsman as a young man.....while I'm perfectly capable of making pencil and paper drawings....I have and use a couple of cad programs .......in designing my shop and landscaping my yard...setting up my sprinkler system......I, also, in my everyday job, envision things..3 dimensional images in my head....I have to...on the fly....in the course of troubleshooting MR imaging problems. I, also, envision things in my mind when designing / building. The gazebo I talked about.....I measured the tallest of those >>>>> geese and used it's height to set the height of the gazebo proportionally. I don't think things have to be drawn in the course of designing. My designing problem comes from finding original lines or ideas that I like and think will be liked by others. Maybe Mark's idea of sketching and carrying it in my pocket while viewing other things and updating as ideas come would remedy my "chore"?.......More questions............
Paralysis from analysis....... :rolleyes:

Never built a gazebo....but that I would need to have a plan! :D

[Dennis Peacock]

Mark,

An EXCELLENT thread.....!!!!!!!!!!!

Putting all tools aside....We often times don't know HOW to use what tools we have to the best of it's own use. In this rush, rush world, we are so in a hurry to crank out a project and call it "done". How can we learn design if we don't experiment with a design that we think may work for us. I for one like having a design idea, putting it into a project and see how it comes out.

It's just the overall method of work that I have troubles with in getting my idea and picture in my mind translated into the final look of the project. This is my fault as I get tired of working on a project and simly put, just want it done and out of the shop. Again my fault. I do my best work when I take my time, think through each process and again....take my time. Many of us are not production shops...so why do we work in such a hurry? Why can't we slow down, enjoy the experience and smell the fine wood we have in the shop while we work on our own idea of a design.

Because of the hurry, hurry world we live in today, kinda translates into our own hobbiest shops and sometimes causes us to take shorter cuts than we really wanted to. Now grated, we're not making $10K pieces of furniture here, but after all, isn't is all about our own design ideas and learning how to get that idea to a finished piece for ourselve?

Thanks for this thread Mark. Dennis - slowing down to smell the shavings from here on out.

[Mark Singer]

I find the conversation very interesting. I think we all design at some level when we build, unless you follow a canned plan exactly. Thinking about where things go, choosing materials, joinery layout...it is all part of design. The more thought and sensitivity that is spent before the project begins the stronger the design process and that should leed to a more satisfying product. Of course, this is a generalization...some of my best homes were designed quickly on a napkin . Some times the juices just flow...sometimes it is a real effort to arrive at something worthy of construction. Just the thought of building and design are almost inseparable since the thought of buiding something creates a mental image. Once the image is manifested and improved, modified ,added to, pictured with a certain wood ....design has begun! Where you stop ...well that is always a big question...some designs are taken too far. It is like a book or movie that should have stopped before the last chapter. With experience a designer (we are all designers) knows if the design is good. He can visulize it from the sketches. The tools that help are the ones we all use...sketches, plans, mock-ups, models. Design can lead the way to better projects. Things that work better , satisfy their intended function and even look like some thought went into them....because it did.

[Mark Singer]

Dave,

You can see on this forum the choice of which brand of tool to buy is also very personal...eveyone has their own favorite, yet it is a popular subject. I always try to be supportive of others work also. We all have pride in what we do and we are all learning. Design is just another topic worthy of discussion and interaction and it can make a significant difference in our work.


Mark,

I think you've answered your own question regarding design and the lack of discussion about design on our forum. Design is incredibly personal. While I always comment about those original designs that I like, I'd never tell someone that I dislike their design. I spend a great deal of time planning the design of what I do, but I consult only LOML on the decisons that are being made because we are the customers of all of my current work.

BTW.... please keep up the thought-provoking threads and work. Dave.

[Rich Konopka]

Mark:

I have to tell you this is the kind of thread that keeps me coming back to the creek. I hereby nominate you for a "Creeker" award for best thread of the year :)

Does anyone care to design an award for Mark?

[Mark Singer]

Mark:

I have to tell you this is the kind of thread that keeps me coming back to the creek. I hereby nominate you for a "Creeker" award for best thread of the year :)

Does anyone care to design an award for Mark?
Rich,
Thank you...I accept the beautiful award...and here is the short coming of the internet....where is my kiss and hug from Hallie Berry or Uma Thurman....well with a creative mind and advanced visulization techniques.....nah! Its not going to happen...

[Michael Stafford]

Whenever I have an idea for a new box I have a visualization in my mind. But I have to put it on paper and draw it to scale to see what it looks like in 2 dimensions. Sometimes I draw it in full scale with front, side and top views with the wood thicknesses drawn to scale. I guess that is pretty anal.

My other problem is that I will find a piece of wood and will not know how to use it until I come up with the "right" box idea. Conversely I will have a box idea and can't build it until I find the right wood.

None of that means I have good designs because I don't think I am particularly creative. I think inside the box too much. :rolleyes:

By the way Mark in my experiences kissing movie stars isn't all its cracked up to be. :eek: Of course I have only kissed Lassie and Gabby Hayes. :p

[Chris Padilla]

Build a box, think like a box...get out of the box!!!! ;)

I'm pretty anal, too. I can take some of these CAD programs to the extreme some times. Sketch-up looks like a dynamite program to learn on but I just can't seem to convince myself to pony up $$$s for it. It is easier to get the next Festool gadget, however! :D

I think I could design some imaginative "one-off" items...I often come up with them while jogging (sorry, Scott C.! ;) ). However, I find I have trouble staring at a basic room. A fair amount of us do not have custom-built homes (I'm gathering) and so we are stuck with these basic boxes or cubes to fill in somehow.

I keep coming back to my EC I've been working on forever. It started very basic and functional: I need a TV spot of x size, I need DVD storage, I need book storage, I need home theater storage, I need room for home theater speakers, I want shelves for some artsy-stuff, I want accent lights. All this stuff goes around a fireplace at the end of one room. My wife and I started drawing out basic boxes (we have 5 sections of boxes) and even throwing in some glass doors and figured wood raised panels, it all still looked boxy and somewhat disconnected. It took some serious work and setup in a CAD program I have for us to finall persuade the design away from the mundane.

It still needs work but we are getting there. Anyway, the CAD helped tremendously, I think, because we had trouble with visualizing the scale of the room and how this EC would fit in.

Okay, enough blabbering for a Friday before work lets out! :)

[Joe Mioux]

Mark, this thread has great velocity! I have really enjoyed reading all the posts.

I do have a question and I hope it adds positively to this thread. What makes good design? What are the mechanics of good design?

best regards
joe

[Mark Singer]

Joe,

This is always a difficult question, but an excellent one. A good design must first satisfy:
1. The program....if it is a cabinet does it effectivly hold what it is entended to? If it is a chair it must be comfortable and for its intended use ie, sitting, lounging, dining, etc. Can it be built for the designated budget?

2.Is the design sound: Is it strong enough? Will the doors open even in winter? Has wood movement been addressed? Have the best materials been selected for the components...such as sheet goods for stability...solid wood for strength in joinery, etc.?

3. Esthetics....is the design well proportioned? Do the materials play well with each other? Is it trying to be too innovative? Is the design fresh and will it endure....become timeless and always look good?

4.Art....does it go beyond the above list and become something that is more than just another piece of furniture...something that invites the touch and seems to invite coment as well. To each that sees it it conveys a different feeling and mood. Does it sit as a piece of sculpture. As they say a picture is worth many words...The Wegner "Bull Chair" ....Marcel Breuer's chairs... George Nelson's tables, the Naguchi coffee table, Corbusier longe, Arne Jacobsen "ant Chair" , Krenov's small cabinets, Charles Eames ..his many chairs., The Scarpa table, these are classics of the 20th century that are collected for function on one level and even more for art. Of course this is a minute list off the top of my head...there are too many!

But good design is really a personal thing. Some people like the Hummer...others the Beetle....Look for what stands the test of time. The Hummer as a personal vechicle is outside the element it was designed for....Excess is usually not a good thing in design.

Super question and yes tough to answer.



Mark, this thread has great velocity! I have really enjoyed reading all the posts.

I do have a question and I hope it adds positively to this thread. What makes good design? What are the mechanics of good design?

best regards
joe

[Joe Mioux]

Joe,

But good design is really a personal thing. Some people like the Hummer...others the Beetle....Look for what stands the test of time. The Hummer as a personal vechicle is outside the element it was designed for....Excess is usually not a good thing in design.

Super question and yes tough to answer.
Mark this is what I am wrestling with... good design. Both the Hummer and the Beetle have good design. Look at the lines. The Hummer has static lines while the Beetle has dynamic lines. Both, especially the Beetle (60 plus years of more or less uninterrupted shape) has stood the test of time as good design. Both of these vehicles have great function for their respective intend use. Good design is a personal thing for both the designer and the intended user. However, what makes a good design timeless?

Best regards
joe

[Pete Lamberty]

One of our Senators says he can't explain what pornography is but he knows it when he sees it. Thats pretty much how I feel about good design. There are many things that play a part in good design.

Some of you have mentioned how you go about building a piece of furniture. Some take more time to design and some just have at it. If I may, I can tell you that someone, long ago, figured out how to do it. I will over simplify this in order not to bore anyone. If you want to design something, lets say a piece of furniture, start sketching, these can be very simple sketches. But sketch a lot. With a pencil and paper. Not a CAD program. Computers and sketching each use a different side of the brain. Sketch on paper. When I sketched the rocking chair (follow link in one of my previous posts in this thread). that I made, I sketched just three lines. Over and over. A little different each time. Each sketch was only an inch or so tall. They were all silhouettes, just three simple arcs. The page was filled with them. While I was sketching I didn't try to judge them. After I was done sketching I went back and looked at them to see if any of them showed promise. I choose the one I like and tried to put a seat into the sketch. I also tried to put arms into the sketch but they just wouldn't fit. So I didnt try to force them in.

Next thing is to build a model. Make a scale model if you like. Use flat cardboard. When done, just look at it and ask others for their opinion. If you would like to change something about it just rip out the bad pieces and put in the new piece. Keep doing this until you have a beautiful design.

Then finally build your piece of furniture. I am sure it will be better than something that you just threw together.

Of course this is over simplified. But it can get you started in the right direction.

[Mark Singer]

Pete,

In the case of chairs...I think it really helps to make a protoype . I usually use real wood and make full scale so the seating position can be experienced. It is a difficult process. If you trim the back legs you increase the rake and the back will contact lower/You can use the protoype to adjust the comfort and esthetics. When I designed chairs and barstools for Sitag...a Swiss Company, I would make the prototype from wood...send it to Frank Smart @ Metalworks in Newport Beach...he would make it in stainless..send it back to me...I then made the Laminated curved backs from sliced veneer... in an MDF form....using a full coat of glue between the layers. This was trimed on the bandsaw and sanded..an oil finish was then applied. The proto type looked better than the chair they finally manufactured. The Sitag version was more perfect and ours was more crafted which gave it a nice handmade character.This was a bit costly...but fun.
I have made full size models of dining tables in MDF that are then made in aluminium or stainless, The model is great to convey to a manufacter or crafstman...easier than drawings...each of these projects started with a hand sketch ....many sketches.

[Boyd Gathwright]

....Well put, Mark.

Thanks

Boyd ;)

.

The focus of SMC is very often which saw to use or which system is better to cut a straight line....which sander leaves the least sawdust....maybe which plane chatters the least. All of these are certainly interesting and valid subjects for a great woodworkers forum. Do these subjects and many others really change the final look of our projects....? The answer is no. If I cut the walnut with a Powermatic or a Jet..it probably won't change much if anything in the final appearance of the project! If I sand it with a Festool or a Bosch, or Dewalt it will probably be just as smooth. To improve a project we need to think deeply about design. Are we limited to just using wood as the only medium? Must a table have 4 legs? What if it had one leg that was metal and it was cast into a concrete base and then covered with gravel...like a flagpole supporting the table...for a patio. About a`week ago I posted "Leave it like it is" in the design forum.....it recieved few posts and several were response from me. As unpopular as it was it is still only on post from the top in the "Design Forum"...the point is no one seems to care much about what something ends up looking like as long as the shavings that fell from their Lie Neilsen Plane were fine and translucent....The shavings end up in the trash....eventually after we fondle them admiring our amazing skill.
We actually end up arguing about which tool is the best for a certain task...what is the point? If we spent a little more time with a blank piece of paper and fresh thoughts about how the next project is to be used,,,what does the the table design need to have to make it really different and still work in concert with the living room? Can I have someone make metal legs.? what about inserting a glass center...if the glass is opague it could be lit from the bottom!
This sort of thinking can make a meaningful difference in the final result. If we put our effort into someting really great and original...we could still have great shavings...speaking of shaving...whose idea was it to put 3 blades in one razor anyway? A creative designer!
This post may not get much response either...it was nice to see that many people knew David Wilcox...even if the concept of the thread was not important. Maybe I am to critical. What is really the difference between your favorite car and one you can't stand ? Probably not the steel or the machines that made it....design, ah yes that may have had something to do with it.:eek:

[Bob Drury]

I'm a newbie to the Creek.
What is "design"?
To me, it follows the three F's. Form, Fit, and Function. If it meets the three F's it's a good design.
Notice there is no "O" for original, or no "A" for art. These are add-ons to please the individual. On the other hand, craftmanship does fall under "Fit".

[Mark Singer]

Your 3 "F's" work...form is essential to art...you have it all there
I'm a newbie to the Creek.
What is "design"?
To me, it follows the three F's. Form, Fit, and Function. If it meets the three F's it's a good design.
Notice there is no "O" for original, or no "A" for art. These are add-ons to please the individual. On the other hand, craftmanship does fall under "Fit".

[Bob Drury]

Yes, form is an essential element of art. But..
I guess what I meant by form was it's relative shape.
You can make a round, oval, square or rectangular table, all of which can be functional designs. The tables can be very plain and still be a good design.
You can then add to the table, an intricate carving, scroll work, or inlay.
While this may enhance the appearance, it adds nothing to it's function. This is what I meant when I said there is no "A" for art.
All I'm talking about is the definition of a good design.
I personally am into woodworking for the art and craftsmanship aspects, but in the end, I want my designs to be good ones.

[Jim Becker]

I think that the one thing that so many folks "struggle" with when they work on their own designs is proportion...it plays a huge roll in the "Form" portion of the three-Fs that Bob mentions. Amazingly, the human eye is pretty acute when it comes to the "Golden Ratio" in most people, yet many times we size components and even whole projects based on arbitrary numbers rather than employing a few minutes of calculation to determine the ideal dimensions for something. (Even when we know about the ratio and its importance!) Sometimes it's the subtle things that different a project from turning out "stupendous" from "just great"...if we could only slow down and make those subtleties part of our designs...

[Paul B. Cresti]

Mark,
I include design in just about everything I do: the way my desk is arranged, the way I complete a task, the method I mill a piece of wood, the way I draw and sketch and of course the way I "design" a piece or a Architectural structure. While in school, my studio mates and I would stay up all night discussing our designs. Now, that my designs are of a more personal nature. The only people I really talk about them to is my clients. For me my designs are about how I transform a space or piece both aestheticaly, physically and mentally. Clients may not understand this, as you know, but they do once my work is done. As a professionally woodworker now (and struggling Architect) I am finding it very hard to continue my ideals and still provide for my family. I guess there is a point in your life when one decides is it a job or my life. When people do not understand or care to understand the "designing" portion of both of my career choices seem to fade away. Can I resurrect it in some form while still providing for my family? I do not know but I guess time will tell.

What is a good design? Well to me it is a structure, piece or any transformation of a space that evokes an inner feeling of calmness, discourse or pleasure.

[Mark Singer]

Paul,

I agree with you and understand the great difficulty in maintaining design principles that you feel are so important and still make a living. Although it is a long and difficult journey the smartest thing to do is to maintain a "signature" based on good design amd the esthetics you feel in your soul and stick with it. As Mies said "We don't have a new architecture every Monday"...you need to continue refining and honing your designs and maintain a consistent portfolio. During one of the many financial recessions we had here in California in the early 90's, another local architect asked me to have lunch with him. He was really effected financially by the slowdown and wanted to know how I was doing...everyone was suffering from the lack of work. Even my office reduced in size from 13 to 4! However I was busy with my new smaller staff . He said to me " Mark, you were smart...you selected a style that you loved and stuck with it...now clients that like your work want only you. I chose to do whatever work came in the door ...even when times were good! Now I must compete strickly by having the lowest fee since I am not recognized for my own distinctive work." The lesson is a good one ...tougher to put into practice than to read about. I did no marketing...I entered the American Institute of Architects Awards Program and won 11 years consecutivly! This reccord has never been approached by any residential architect in Orange County. The local and even national magazines became interested in my work and I have a today I have a strong following and a waiting list of projects . I entered other Awards programs as well. It all tends to perpetuate itself once you get it going...the quality needs to be good.
In woodworking it is the same....many people build a Maloof style rocker...the others compete against each other and sell them for between $2,000 and $5000 ....Maloof has the waiting list as is getting $25,000 for one! Find your nitch and make it happen!

[Christian Aufreiter]

Great thread, Mark, let me add a few thoughts.
I can't completely answer why people (I'm one of those guys) focus on tools, methods, ... but here are some more questions:
Why woodworking? Why are there so many woodworkers? Why do people like woodworking?
- They like to be creative, use their own design.
- They enjoy playing/working with tools.
- They love wood.
- They want to save money compared to custom made furniture.
- They dislike being dependent on professionals.
- They enjoy manual work during their spare time.
- They try to feel the spirit of classic tools and methods.
...
Well, I think it depends on our attitudes towards woodworking which of those points are more important to us. And the discussions reflect our individual feelings regarding woodworking.
In German there's this sentence: Der Weg ist das Ziel.
This means something like the process/way is the goal. I don't say that this is (always) true but sometimes I don't care for the project, for the design and for the progress of my work. Sometimes I need a piece of scrap, my simple Japanese handplane in order to get this feeling. It's not important if the board is flat and square after I planed it, I just want to produce shavings, hear the sound of the plane cutting wood and enjoy smelling the freshly planed wood.

Yes, I know, this doesn't answer your question but I wanted to provide my opinion on woodworking.

Regards,

Christian

[Mark Singer]

Christian,

I enjoy just woodworking on a scrap of wood....it is a medium where I feel I have control...In Architecture , the City,client or contractor could change my design...push it in directions that don't support the basic ideas...ruin it!
In the quietness of the shop...there is peace and magic...it is our domain...we know where everything is (or should be) . There is great satisfaction in this workshop enviornment alone.

With a scrap of wood and a plane it begins....more magic

With a total project you designed ...from scratch ...even more of all the feelings come forth...you become totally absorbed ...the phone never rings...or you just don't hear it....I am sure I have worked right through an eartquake or two....work becomes meditation ...you are correct there is great peace and satisfaction in what we do...

[Pete Lamberty]

Hi Mark,
I tried to reply to your private message but your mailbox is full. You may want to delete some of the unimportant ones. Pete

[Paul B. Cresti]

Mark,
While I see your point and hope to get there some day, I think sometimes it is not in the cards for some of us. Life happens in between. Been doing a lot of soul searching latley and I have to say I already have succeeded in life with a wife and three beautiful chirldren. So my immediate goal is to provide for them. In school, ideals were all that mattered, we were unaffected by the world around us. Now every ebb and flow of the market/economy directly affects us. I was working for others for awhile, and making a decent living, but then got laid off and embarked on my new journey. A journey where design and ideals lead the way. It is a very tough road, as you have pointed out, and I may have to stray a little at times in order to .. well .. you know .. eat. This is why sometimes I believe people tend not to discuss design too much. It is something viewed as an untainable/misunderstood concept. As we both know, a good design can make ones life more enjoyable. It some times takes some persistence and patience. Most people want the "quick fix" and instant gratification. Instead of having less of a higher quality they want more of a lesser quality. Tools kind of can fall into this instant gratification concept. I must admitt I too fall into this category. I love tools and love using them. It is something very tangeable and readily understood by all. I enjoy talking about them as do others on this board because we all know were we are coming from and in some ways we are all connected. Not to mention it is just plain fun to use power tools :)

[Mac McAtee]

So many comments and so many thoughts.

I, personally, am not very good at all of coming up with a design, an original design. I have done it and it was successful but not the rule the exception.

But, woodworking is not some new "thing". The guys that built the Pyramids had to do wood work first. And they finished the Pharaohs tomb with wood objects and furniture.

I frankly don't think that very many people can improve on what has been done in the past, talking furniture here. Nakishima(sp?) made nice tables but I wouldn't buy one if I found one for $10, unless I thought that I could get some good wood out of it for something that I want to make. Maloof was a master of design and could translate his thoughts into objects of wood.

I don't like "natural edge" stuff. It is beautiful no doubt, but it looks un-finished. Lathe work or flat work, no matter. I see it and think, if the guy had just trimmed the bark off, or cut a nice curve on the edge, it would have been a useful item.

All the things you see in Fine Woodworking Magazine, usually in the back or in a feature about trends in the woodworking field leave me cold. Those goofy looking stack of drawers that have weird shapes or have maple wood with ebony stringing around them, why waste time and materials on them? Strange cantilevered tables with cracks left in the top and butterfly dutchmen spliced in look like High School crap.

Go back and look at what the furniture makers of the 1600's, 1700's were doing. Beautiful, practical, useful design of furniture. You cannot improve upon it.

I have no problems with taking a photo in a magazine or catalog and building it. I make up dimensions, keeping with the design. I may choose figured wood where the original was plain wood. I may use slightly different hardware but keeping with the period of the piece.

There is a table, a small table with drop leaves, in the Museum of Southern Decorative Arts in Winston-Salem. Made by a cabinet maker in Baltimore for his daughter something like in 1780. I is so elegant. I will make one like it one day. Only reason I haven't started already is that the top, the main top, is a piece of crotch mahogany. I bought a piece of Cuban Mahogany, crotch grain only to find when I got it in my hands it had bark in the crotch. When I find the right piece of wood I'll build it, I won't change a thing except for some of the secondary wood, I'll use what I have, not what is in the original.

And I ramble.

Interesting topic. I hope more join in.