Shaper guys chime in

[Tom Welch]

I have just purchased a 5 hp powermatic shaper, and I want to buy a panel raising cutter and get a undercutter for it. So the panel is flush with the rail and stiles both front and back.
I noticed when shopping for panel raising cutters they designate for certain size stock. ( 5/8, 3/4 etc....) I normally make my doors from 3/4 stock.
My Question is: If I buy a cutter for 3/4 stock will there be enough stock left at the edge to use a undercutter and still give me about 1/4" edge to fit into my rails and stiles? Or what cutter should I buy.
Also is there enough HP to cut with an undercutter (5 hp with 1 1/4" spindle)
I would really like to buy the right cutter first, instead of learning the expensive way. Thanks.

[Randy Henry]

Tom,
I have the PM 2700 shaper with the 5hp. I have the set-up you are talking about. I went with Freeborn cutters (cope-stick-panel-back cutter). I went with the 1 1/4" spindle hole on all of the cutters for 2 reasons: supposed to be a better cut on the rails/panels with the larger spindle, and I don't have to change the spindles, even though its not that difficult to do. the 5 hp is plenty of enough hp to turn the panel and back cutter. I take most of the cut in the first pass, then do a light finish cut. I built a jig that J.R. Rutter recommended to keep the panel from tipping into the wide opening when doing the raised panel, it works great. I had several panels tip into the opening and it ruined them. Do a search on it here and you will find it. With the back cutter set up, you can dial in however you want your panel, in relation to flush with or out past the rails. I have tried running my panels both ways, good side down and up. I prefer the good side down because if there is any varience in thickness, I would rather it show on the back, not the front. I also got the PM 41 power feed. It made a huge difference.

[Ben Abate]

Tom,

Most of the better manufactures have the required matching back cutter. And yes, this can be a very expensive learning curve with a shaper. You can do as you please but I recommend buying the panel raiser and the profile cutters from a source like Freeborn or LHR and there are many others. What's nice about insert cutters is, when you chip a cutter you can just replace the cutting edge and not send it out for sharpening. It's a matter of contacting the company and having them overnight you a new cutter for a few dollars. Well, not a few dollars but the down time is marginal. For your other profiles you can go cheaper with the grizzly and so on companies.

When you buy from lets say Freeborn you are guaranteed for one that you have the backing of a good company. Two the units are matched pairs as in profile cutters. For the panel raisers I recommend you go with the insert cutter heads. Also you can do this for your profile cutters. Freeborn is as good as you will need. They're hard to beat for quality.

As for the back cutter I think you'll find that most companies have a specific back cutter for a specific panel raiser. What's nice about most of the better companies is that you can shim to whatever thickness you need.

I hope I helped and not made it more confusing. By the way that's a nice shaper you bought. At some point you might want to think about a power feeder. That makes life so much easier on you.

take care
Ben

[Ben Abate]

Randy,

I did a search for the panel jig but came up empty. could you copy the link over to here. I found a few topics with J.R's input but I didn't find that one. I'm curious to see what he developed.

thanks
Ben

[Peter Quinn]

My panel raisers are for 5/8" material with the panel field flush with the door front and the back flush with the back of the panel groove. A back cutter is required for 3/4" material. If you want your panels flush with the front and back of your doors, choose a cutter for 5/8" material with a back cutter.

A cutter like those from Freeborn listed as for 3/4" material, will make a 1/4" panel tongue and a full molded profile in 3/4" stock. This will put the front of your panels 1/8" proud of the rails and stiles on your door. If that is what you want, than choose those. It will also make double sided panels for 1 3/4" entry doors in two passes.

A 5HP 1 1/4" shaper is plenty to push a back cutter and panel raiser. I have some Amana cutters,, some Freeborn, and a Freud RP2000 set. I mainly use the Freud cutter as it makes a great cut.

[Randy Henry]

A cutter like those from Freeborn listed as for 3/4" material, will make a 1/4" panel tongue and a full molded profile in 3/4" stock. This will put the front of your panels 1/8" proud of the rails and stiles on your door. If that is what you want, than choose those. It will also make double sided panels for 1 3/4" entry doors in two passes.

Peter, this is what I use, and I make most of my panels flush with the rails/stiles, you just adjust the height to your choosing.

Ben, I am not a contributor yet, so I cannot post a link, J.R. will see this and hopefully re-send the picture/info. Sorry.

[J.R. Rutter]

Like Peter, I use 5/8" cutters to have panels flush with front and flat recessed in back. Same with back cutter for flush both sides.

Panel jig: Aluminum angle mounted to 2 pieces of 3/4" ply. Top one in the pic has countersunk screws to sit flush with table for flat back panels. Bottom strip has screws spaced up to put support strip at proper height for the back cut. Steel pins in the stock fence for location so a couple of big spring clamps are all that's needed to hold it on.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_7ftZyQvHxr8/S6AWRtZJAdI/AAAAAAAAAOc/fupHzdID5nY/s640/DSCF0003.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_7ftZyQvHxr8/S6AV1AzjkWI/AAAAAAAAAOY/5mJJoRuZ25E/s640/DSCF0002.jpg

[Peter Quinn]

Not sure how that is possible in all cases Randy? Some profiles allow you to simply raise the cutter, with others the full profile will disappear in the wrong stock thickness. I guess a cove or some ogee profiles work, but anything with a bead and small fillet gets weird, and I figure you still need the back cut to have both front and back of the panel flush, and if the OP is using 3/4" panels in 3/4" doors frames, that will be the case.

As to the panel tongue, I forgot to mention, pretty much every cutter I have used allows at least a 3/8" tongue depth and many will allow as much as 9/16" which you might use for entry doors. Not usually an issue.

[Tom Welch]

Thanks guys for all the info. Peter, I think I will go with the cutter for 5/8's stock with a back cutter. I'm glad I posted this, I almost ordered a cutter for 3/4 stock. Thanks for the info.
JR, thanks for posting the jig.
Yes, I am going to be ordering a power feeder. Do you guys think 1/4 hp is enough for pushing panels through?

[Steve Griffin]

Tom,
1/4 shaper will look like a toy on your 5hp shaper, though it may do fine with operations that don't require much force. I would highly recommend spending another couple hundred and get a 4 roller, 1HP feeder like the Griz G1095. This would be more closely matched to the nice machine you have. I'm a big fan of having two wheels on each side of a cutter. It's not just about horsepower, but a more massive and strong mounting system will give you smooth, safer feeding. It will also open options up in the future such as climb cutting.

Have fun, and be sure to get in the habit of double checks before cranking her up-- I give my cutter a spin by hand, check it's direction setting and give the power feeder a friendly yank to be sure I didn't miss tightening a lever.

-Steve

[Glen Butler]

Tom,
1/4 shaper will look like a toy on your 5hp shaper, though it may do fine with operations that don't require much force. I would highly recommend spending another couple hundred and get a 4 roller, 1HP feeder like the Griz G1095. This would be more closely matched to the nice machine you have. I'm a big fan of having two wheels on each side of a cutter. It's not just about horsepower, but a more massive and strong mounting system will give you smooth, safer feeding. It will also open options up in the future such as climb cutting.

Have fun, and be sure to get in the habit of double checks before cranking her up-- I give my cutter a spin by hand, check it's direction setting and give the power feeder a friendly yank to be sure I didn't miss tightening a lever.

-Steve
Great post. I agree with this 100%.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks guys for all the info. Peter, I think I will go with the cutter for 5/8's stock with a back cutter. I'm glad I posted this, I almost ordered a cutter for 3/4 stock. Thanks for the info.
JR, thanks for posting the jig.
Yes, I am going to be ordering a power feeder. Do you guys think 1/4 hp is enough for pushing panels through?

I don't think 1/4HP is going to be a comfortable experience, and certainly not enough for everything that shaper is capable. Consider going at least 1/2HP. But the difference between 1/2 and 1HP is so little, most just go to 1HP.

As Randy noted you can use cutters for 3/4" stock in 5/8" stock by adjusting the cutter height, but not all profiles render well this way, particularly those with crisp subtle details at the transition between molded profile and the flat field.

JR, that is a great fence, thanks for posting that. Anything special about the aluminum angle?

[J.R. Rutter]

Anything special about the aluminum angle?

Get anodized - much better for friction reduction and non-marking. I used 1/8" thick because that's what was available locally. 3/16" would be more rigid. The back side has a small relief cut for the spindle.

[Mike Heidrick]

Amazon has had the Freud RP1000 for about $150 and a set of raised panle "D" 5/8 knives for it for $15-$10 in recent weeks. The back cutter was $20. That is a super way to get insert tooling for RPs cheaply. The other profiles are $35-$40 but maybe they will go on sale too someday. The freud set allows you to run 5/8 and 3/4 raised panels just by changing the knives. The cut is great!

[Peter Quinn]

Amazon has had the Freud RP1000 for about $150 and a set of raised panle "D" 5/8 knives for it for $15-$10 in recent weeks. The back cutter was $20. That is a super way to get insert tooling for RPs cheaply. The other profiles are $35-$40 but maybe they will go on sale too someday. The freud set allows you to run 5/8 and 3/4 raised panels just by changing the knives. The cut is great!

Mike, that is the setup I use these days mostly, and though it is a two wing cutter, the insert are so sharp it does one heck of a job. Knife changes are so easy even I can do it! Thats a great deal at that price too. Any deals on the RP2000, which is basically the whole kit? Its more money than a single quality panel raiser, but much cheaper over a lifetime if you plan to make different panel profiles in your shop.

[Randy Henry]

Not sure how that is possible in all cases Randy? Some profiles allow you to simply raise the cutter, with others the full profile will disappear in the wrong stock thickness. I guess a cove or some ogee profiles work, but anything with a bead and small fillet gets weird, and I figure you still need the back cut to have both front and back of the panel flush, and if the OP is using 3/4" panels in 3/4" doors frames, that will be the case.

As to the panel tongue, I forgot to mention, pretty much every cutter I have used allows at least a 3/8" tongue depth and many will allow as much as 9/16" which you might use for entry doors. Not usually an issue.

Peter, I actually meant the 5/8 cutter, with the back-cutter for 3/4 in. material. My fault.

[Mike Heidrick]

I have been looking for deals on the RP2000 for awhile now but I bought the RP1000 on ebay for $15 (gloat) and $15 shipping in November so now I mostly just look for knives. The $10 5/8 "D" knives made me $50 on two doors last week so I am clear on that head now.

I use EC260 freud rail and stile cutter setup with the RP1000 and it works great.

[Peter Quinn]

I have been looking for deals on the RP2000 for awhile now but I bought the RP1000 on ebay for $15 (gloat) and $15 shipping in November so now I mostly just look for knives. The $10 5/8 "D" knives made me $50 on two doors last week so I am clear on that head now.

I use EC260 freud rail and stile cutter setup with the RP1000 and it works great.

Let me take this opportunity to say "YOU SUCK"!:D I got free shipping on the RP2000! I think its the best deal in panel cutter heads going, especially your deal.

[Tom Welch]

Thanks for the info Mike. I did order the Freud PR1000 and the back cutter and I ordered one 5/8 cutter (RP-D) also I ordered 2 more cutter blades for 3/4 only because Amazon had them for $18 each. However, I did not order the head and back cutter and the 5/8 blade from amazon because, when I put them in my cart the PR1000 it was $155 and I went to my room (I am on an offshore oil drilling rig) to get my wallet, they went up on the PR1000 to $175. So I did some internet surfing and found Routerbitworld.com and order it from them for $139, with only$1 shipping so I ordered the back cutter and 5/8 knive also.
For everyone who "chimed in" on this thread I want to thank you. You taught me a lot. And saved me money, cause I was going to buy the wrong set up for the result that I was looking for.

[Mark Woodmark]

Check out my post below

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=137156

[Peter Quinn]

Good deal Tom. Which back cutter did you get? I got both squAre
edge and cove but use only the cove. Its a great setup you will enjoy.

[Tom Welch]

Peter, I bough the cove back cutter, cause that was the look I was used to from making doors on my router table. I am glad to hear that that is your preference also. I bough two books on shapers, and I am taking it slow to learn the tool safely, These things are defently in their own league. So I will probbly be "picking your brain" from time to time, hope you don't mind. By the way I am going to pick up a 1 hp power feeder as soon as I build up some more wood working spending "points" from the boss. She is wanting a new office desk, hey that could be a good excuse for a power feeder? What do you think? ;)

[Jeff Monson]

Peter, I bough the cove back cutter, cause that was the look I was used to from making doors on my router table. I am glad to hear that that is your preference also. I bough two books on shapers, and I am taking it slow to learn the tool safely, These things are defently in their own league. So I will probbly be "picking your brain" from time to time, hope you don't mind. By the way I am going to pick up a 1 hp power feeder as soon as I build up some more wood working spending "points" from the boss. She is wanting a new office desk, hey that could be a good excuse for a power feeder? What do you think? ;)

Tom sounds like great excuse for a feeder, you are going to really like your shaper, I just took delivery of a pm2700 last week. I love this machine, lots of power and the fence is so nice for setup. The only bad part of my purchase and you are not going to believe this....... is I have $210 dollars worth of brand new amana panel raisers for 3/4" material!! I bought a cove and a ogee panel raiser, right now I'm REALLY wishing this post had come up 2 weeks prior. I'm hoping I can return the cove raiser but I used the ogee :( so...Lesson learned i guess.

My panels stand proud of my frame no matter how I set up the cut, I dont want this as I use my drum sander to make everything flat. I'm really liking the look of the rp2000 kit, it looks nice.

BTW raising panels in one pass is really cool.

[Tom Welch]

Yea Jeff I almost feel your pain, I came so close to ordering before I started this thread, so glad I did waited and asked the guys here. As a matter of fact, I have learned so much here at Sawmill Creek. Wish I had discovered it years ago.

[Peter Quinn]

The only bad part of my purchase and you are not going to believe this....... is I have $210 dollars worth of brand new amana panel raisers for 3/4" material!! .

Don't feel bad Jeff. I had to stop and really think about exactly which cutters I use for what to answer the op and I theoretically do this for a living. The manufacturers really could do a better job of explaining this. They have panel raisers for 1/2", 5/8" and 3/4" material and they don't show you a diagram of just what these produce. A few simple diagrams would clear the whole thing up, but I can't find any on any of the manufacturers sites. Just basic profiles with few numbers and no mention of how to stack with back cutters.

For instance can you tell me in three seconds or less, top of your head, which cutter makes double sided panels for 1 3/8" passage doors in 3/4" stock, a sort of shallow semi raised look? Neither could I when I bought one (its a 1/2" stock profile), I had to call my tooling company and say "Um, duh, here's what I;m doing, what do I need". I wish they had a "How to stack a shaper for Dummies" book. I'd buy a copy.

[John Harden]

Does your shaper have a "Sawstop" device installed?

If not, you're not being safe. Shame on you!!!!!!! :eek:

A lawsuit properly applied will correct the clear oversight of the manufacturer of your shaper. :rolleyes:

Sorry. Couldn't resist the opportunity for humor.

Regards,

John

[Jeff Monson]

Don't feel bad Jeff. I had to stop and really think about exactly which cutters I use for what to answer the op and I theoretically do this for a living. The manufacturers really could do a better job of explaining this. They have panel raisers for 1/2", 5/8" and 3/4" material and they don't show you a diagram of just what these produce. A few simple diagrams would clear the whole thing up, but I can't find any on any of the manufacturers sites. Just basic profiles with few numbers and no mention of how to stack with back cutters.

For instance can you tell me in three seconds or less, top of your head, which cutter makes double sided panels for 1 3/8" passage doors in 3/4" stock, a sort of shallow semi raised look? Neither could I when I bought one (its a 1/2" stock profile), I had to call my tooling company and say "Um, duh, here's what I;m doing, what do I need". I wish they had a "How to stack a shaper for Dummies" book. I'd buy a copy.

Thanks Peter, makes me feel a little better, in my eyes ordering the correct cutters was a no brainer, yep I'm using 3/4" material! thats the cutter for me.

Good thing the rail and stile cutters arent made that way or I'd be out another $200.00.

I really do argree a few simple diagrams would clear up the whole mess.