Do I have a lemon TS? HELP!

[Pat Fitzsimmons]

My table saw blade alignment problems are driving me crazy. I have a very little used 10" contractor type table saw made by General but the blade won't stay in alignment with the miter gauge slot. After very good alignment, it will be misaligned a day or two later-maybe as much as 0.015". I have PALS (easy to reach adjustment screws).

I would appreciate any and all comments/suggestions. I would even invest in a new TS. Thanks.

[glenn bradley]

Is it on a mobile base and/or do you move it to different places in the shop? Can you tell us what happens between it being in alignment and being out? Like; in alignment - cut 4 sheets of ply into cabinet panels - out of alignment.

[johnny means]

Is .015 out of alignment:confused:. I'm sure if you looked hard enough you would find that every measurement is off. What is prompting your frequent checks? If your cuts are okay your saw is aligned just fine.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I disagree with Johnny - 0.015 is WAY out, and will certainly give you blade marks, etc, so you are right to worry about it.

My contractor saw never stays aligned either. Whenever I move it, it "moves" :). I think it's inherent to the design, with the motor hanging off the back like it does, when you move it around, the inertia of that large mass, hung off that bracket the way it is, causes a lot of torque on the trunnions.

I tried really torquing down the trunnion bolts once, and broke one in half. I had to take the whole top of the saw off to remove the broken-off part of the bolt. Since then, I replaced the stock bolts with grade 5 bolts, and really torqued them down, and that seems to have helped, some.

[scott spencer]

It's possible that the connecting rods between the brackets have twisted during a bevel cut.

[Myk Rian]

How are you measuring it? Same spot on the blade?
If you aren't turning the blade to make the measurements, that could give false readings.

[Pat Fitzsimmons]

Glen, it's on a nice HCS roller frame. It will remain in alignment for cutting up one 4x8 sheet but then anything can happen after that. Thanks, pat

[Pat Fitzsimmons]

Myk, no I'm marking spot, use a dial indicator sliding back and forth in the miter slot and then rotating the blade 180'. In about 15 minutes I can get the blade 0.000" parallel to the miter slot-for a while anyway.

[Brian W Evans]

Pat,

I have a General contractor saw also and I have the same problem. About all I can offer - since you already have PALS - is sympathy. I agree with the previous poster that it's probably due to the smaller trunnion and the motor hanging out the back. I personally plan to upgrade to a cabinet saw when situation and finances allow, in large part because of this issue.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

My exact problem with the Ridgid 3660. I tied to get it aligned but it was never easy or cosnsitent. The last time I tried was yesterday and no matter what I tried (extensive Google search, forum searches, manual, etc.) I could never get it closer that +/- .020.

That is why today I bought the CM 22116 and the 3660 is no longer with me. ;)

[glenn bradley]

Glen, it's on a nice HCS roller frame. It will remain in alignment for cutting up one 4x8 sheet but then anything can happen after that. Thanks, pat

Scott and Dan both hit on the areas I was leading into. Contractor saws by design can have issues.Ever wonder why there are so many after market "fixes" for them. My 1970's C-man would stay rock solid but it took a while (and some concessions) to get there.

PALs, link-belt, machined pulleys, NO mobile base, 100 pound sack of cement in the base, new fence and a new miter gauge got me to ground zero. The reason I state NO mobile base is that I had to turn a blind eye to my alignment efforts anytime I relocated the saw.Staying put was one of the concessions I made to have reliable cuts. Minimizing any bevel cuts was another concession. Tilting the motor hanging on those two little rods gave me heartburn.

You mention the saw is lightly used. I am not sure what that means in months. If you are losing alignment without moving the saw (that is, just cutting up some sheetgoods in the same spot) and the alignment is still slipping, I would call General. They are the most familiar with the machine and its behavior (good and bad).

If the saw is going out when moved from one spot on the floor to the next; contractor's do that in my experience. Please bear in mind that I have never had one as nice as yours ;-)

[Glen Butler]

Yup, sounds like you got a lemon. I could understand a few thou day by day as temperature changes or you get dust here or there. As long as your screws are tight, there is not much more I can tell you except blue locktite. The only time my saw (PM2000) gets out from where I set it is when there is dust on the glides of the fence. I have to remind myself to clean it regularly.

[scott spencer]

Pat - Below is an excerpt about checking and adjusting the connecting rods (tie rods) of a Delta contractor that has similar guts as your GI saw. In case you'd like to read the entire article, here's a link to it (http://www.woodworking-online.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11326).

"1. Raise the sawblade to it's maximum height and mark one tooth, at the
front of the blade as a reference.
2. Using a combination square, measure from the left edge of the right-hand
miter gauge slot to the sawblade tooth that was marked in step 1 (Note this
measurement). Then rotate the blade to the rear and measure from the same
marked tooth to the miter slot. (Note this measurement).

IF the two measurements are NOT the same, proceed with step 3.

Note: refer to parts diagram on the following page for part locations.

(My note...this is the step I never knew had to be done, nor have I ever
heard anyone mention it before.)

3. Remove the sawblade. (Remember, it is still at it's maximum height)
4. Place a flat plate (or similar flat object) on top of the two tie-bars.
(The size of the plate should be at least 6" by 8", and the flatter the
better). Depress one corner of the plate and if it rocks, the tie-bars are
not parallel. This must be corrected as it will affect the alignment of the
blade.

To make the Tie-Bars parallel:
5. Loosen the tie-bar locknuts (2ea. ref #245) located at the rear of the
saw.
6. Grasp the motor bracket (ref #244) and move it left and/or right. Check
the rocking of the flat plate and when it can no longer rock, the tie-bars
are parallel...re-tighten the locknuts.

Aligning the saw undercarriage:
7. Remove the flat plate and re-install the sawblade.
8. Loosen the front trunnion bolts (2ea. ref #207) and the rear trunnion
bolts (2ea. ref #243).
9. Move the entire undercarriage around while measuring as in step 2.
10. When the two measurements are the same, re-tighten the front two
trunnion bolts (ref #207).
11. Before tightening the rear trunnion bolts, push forward on the rear
trunnion bracket to allow the undercarriage to snugly fit between the two
trunnions.
12. Re-check the blade to miter slot measurement and if they are still
equal, re-tighten the rear trunnion bolts (ref #243).
13. If the blade to miter slot measurements have changed, repeat steps 8
thru 12. "

[Pat Fitzsimmons]

Scott, thank you-I find your post and link very interesting. I'm going to do everything in the link article including the bolt extensions for the front trunnion bolts because they're impossible to reach. pat

[Pat Fitzsimmons]

All of the comments were helpful-thank you. Scott Spencer had two helpful comments: make notes on dial gauge readings and what nuts are loose, snug, tightened etc. Previously I was random with my procedures and didn't realize there is a connection between actions and results. Quick adjustments now. He also pointed me to this site: http://www.woodworking-online.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11326 which had the extremely helpful suggestion to use all thread and coupler nuts to replace the front trunion nuts-see my pictures of my installation. To see the front left coupler I had to tilt my saw blade.
The couplers are easy to reach and tight/loosen with an open wrench.

The adjusting screws for the PALs were very frustrating to operate. The were M5 cap screws with 4-mm allen wrench. Inserting the allen was hit and miss and therefore slow. I replaced them M5 SS with hex heads-see picture. Now I use a ratchet box wrench-see picture and it's effortless.

The need for blade alignment has been greatly reduced and alignment is very fast.

[Joseph Tarantino]

in the third pic, there are two nuts on each trunion bolt. is this specified by the PALS system? i've not seen a similar set up on any table saw. a second nut is usually used to keep the first nut from moving. what are you trying to accomplish with the additional "locking" nut?

[Tony Bilello]

Does your blade go out of alignment after you make left or right tilting 45 degree cuts or if you lower the blade down to tight. That will mess me up on my Delta Contractors saw. maybe that is causing your problem.

[glenn bradley]

in the third pic, there are two nuts on each trunion bolt. is this specified by the PALS system? i've not seen a similar set up on any table saw. a second nut is usually used to keep the first nut from moving. what are you trying to accomplish with the additional "locking" nut?

I'm not Pat but I have run PALs in the past. The second nut comes with the PALs for the purpose you describe.

[Paul Atkins]

Never heard of PALs, but a good tag with the Lincoln welder should keep it from moving. Should never need to adjust this kind of thing once it is delivered as far as I am concerned.

[Jim Falsetti]

The original Delta contractor saw alignment document is available on the Delta FAQ site: http://support.dewalt.com/cgi-bin/dewalt.cfg/php/enduser/fattach_get.php?p_sid=UMNyViZj&p_li=&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_tbl=9&p_id=3944&p_created=1191351137&p_olh=0

(hope the link works)...Jim