Stick cut before the cope cut

[Jeff Monson]

I'm awaiting shipment on a shaper, so today I was thinking about how to make the stick cut on some of the shorter rails, for raised panels doors. Is it possible or do some already do this......make long runs of frame material and make the stick cut, then cut to length and make the cope cut.

I made a weaver knock off cope cutting sled, so that cut to me is a safe cut. But running 6" short rails through on a stick cut makes me more nervous, or is there a jig to make this cut safely.

[David DeCristoforo]

I do this with the stile stock. But you get a lot of tear out if you try to cope profiled material. You can make up filler blocks to limit this but it's better if you can cope first. If you make a ZC face for your profile cut, there should be no problem running six inch pieces.

[Glen Butler]

I have had some rails as short as 4". I found the simplest thing for me at the time was to run longer pieces of the pattern and then cut the cope as you are saying. It was cherry and maple. The problem was not tear out but just the opposite. It did not cut cleanly and I had to clean it up with an exacto knife. Hickory and oak I can see being a problem as they tear out easier than cherry or maple. Like I said it was the easiest thing for me to do at the time. I would like to make a pattern sled for these short pieces.

[Brian Kincaid]

...Hickory and oak I can see being a problem as they tear out easier than cherry or maple...

My experience is on a router table not a shaper. So ymmv.

I use red oak mostly, and I always do the cope cuts last with a coping sled that rides on the fence. My trick is to set the fence to leave 1/16, then take off the final 1/16 in a second pass. It's a lot faster than bringing out the carving knive to clean up fuzz. The Incra fence makes this easy too since it has a positive positioning system for the fence. 1/32 would be more clean possibly but if there is any blowout with the hog cut 1/32 wouldn't remove enough material to clean it up.

For difficult pieces I have taken 1/16 passes to avoid blowout when I have to run the pieces with the profile against the backer (no support). A climb cut would be cleaner but probably not safer.

-Brian

[Joe Jensen]

I use a feeder on a shaper. I do the profile cuts first. Then I put the cope cutter in and make a sacrificial fence with the cope cutter so the profile slides into the cope cut. I found that when I did the cope cuts first sometimes the tearout was enough that the profile didn't clean it up. Also, many times the parts are too short for my power feeder so I profile longer boards and cut parts from that.

[Rod Sheridan]

I use a feeder on a shaper. I do the profile cuts first. Then I put the cope cutter in and make a sacrificial fence with the cope cutter so the profile slides into the cope cut. ...........................Also, many times the parts are too short for my power feeder so I profile longer boards and cut parts from that.

That's what I do as well, depending upon the door sizes the railes/stiles may be of a 2:1 ratio which is great for stock prep...Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

I've done both, I prefer to cope then mold, but frankly its your call with shorts. You have a coping sled, so thats easy. For molding shorts, I butt three or four end to end along the TS fence as a guide, and use 2" strips of of 1/8" masonite with double stick tape to connect them. Run them through as a unit and voila. Hardest part is removing the masonite. The average distance between centers on a three wheel feeder is 5 1/2", so its dicey to process some short rails without some sort of helper. They tend to tip up as they leave one wheel and enter the next, and you may only have one wheel on the stock at a time which is not ideal.

You could also make a sled that forces them to the fence and through and is reusable pretty easy if the widths are consistent. Ours typically vary so the tape thing is easier on a single job.

If you mold first, you need a backer cut by running long grain through the cope set up for the cope sled. Take care also how you cross cut the material to length. It is a bit slower IME this way but no less accurate as long as your backer is good. Plan a few extra parts either way, as both methods are more prone to snipe or chip out than on longer parts. CYA.

[Jeff Monson]

Thanks for the excellent info!!

When cutting the profile on long stock does one run the stock right on the cast iron top? That is how I do it on the router table, but I have not cut any cope or rail cuts on my shaper yet. BTW It comes tomorrow, and my cutters are ready. ( holy cow they are big in comparison to a router bit!!!!!!)

[Joe Jensen]

Thanks for the excellent info!!

When cutting the profile on long stock does one run the stock right on the cast iron top? That is how I do it on the router table, but I have not cut any cope or rail cuts on my shaper yet. BTW It comes tomorrow, and my cutters are ready. ( holy cow they are big in comparison to a router bit!!!!!!)

With my PM26 shaper ran the stock on the cast iron and either used a miter guage with the sacrificial fence or a home coping sled. I have since upgraded to a Felder saw/shaper and I need to learn how to best do it on this machine.

[Karl Brogger]

I always run my sticking before my cope cuts. I run a piece 10" long or so through the coping head to make my backer for when the cutter doesn't start in the profile. It fits into the stick profile, then whack away on them. The trick with little tiny railes is to use that same backer piece when doing the opposite face. It holds it in place quite nicely. Not to say I'm not a bit squeamish when running the occasional 2" rail, but it does work, and I've had a pretty low suicide rate on those short parts since starting.

The best way is to have left and right coping heads.

Oddly enough I get more fuzzies on some profiles that the inside edge hits the cutter first. The ones that I use the coped backer on are flawless.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks for the excellent info!!

When cutting the profile on long stock does one run the stock right on the cast iron top? That is how I do it on the router table, but I have not cut any cope or rail cuts on my shaper yet. BTW It comes tomorrow, and my cutters are ready. ( holy cow they are big in comparison to a router bit!!!!!!)

That is how I typically do it. Wax the table well or use some form of dry lubricant like boeshield. And ditto the "large compared to a router bit" comparison. Even little 3/4" cutters dwarf the biggest router bits. For really long stock you might want a bit of additional infeed and out feed support even with a feeder.

For cutters that are too large in diameter to fit in the hole in the table, you can make an MDF cover for the table with a radius cut out in front of the opening in the fence slightly larger than the cutters arc, and a cleat screwed in from underneath on the infeed side to keep this table from moving. Still clamp it down. Its a good move for use with a molding head or some panel raisers so they don't hit the table, but not usually necessary with door sets.

Do you have a power feed? One thing I highly recommend for users new to both the shaper and power feed is dry runs. In fact I still do this. With the fence and feeder set, and the cutter either turned out of the way or removed if necessary (not running), pass some test stock through the feeder setup to see how it behaves. On things like short rails, where that opening in the fence is huge compared to a router, and the distance between wheels is considerable too, it is best to see how things will go without the spinning cutter in the mix. Its funny how little pieces can lift up and get ejected or blown up. DAMHIK

Once you get the hang of the shaper its simple, quite safe and enjoyable. But do proceed cautiously. As you noted, its a lot bigger than a router and setup is not a direct parallel.

[Chip Lindley]

I cope the ends of every piece first, using an older Weaver coping sled.
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=965759#post965759[/URL]
Pieces can be flipped, end for end this way. Blowout is not a problem with a square edge to meet solidly with a sacrificial backer board. Cathedral top rail pieces are impossible to cope after they have been profiled!

My rail/stile profiles are cut using a Weaver jig plate.
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=965759#post965759 (http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=131988)[URL="http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=96349"]
The infeed fence is spring loaded and holds the workpiece against an outboard fence away from the cutter. The outfeed fence is set for a very close sliding fit of the finished workpiece between it and the outboard fence. I have no trouble with short pieces tipping into the cutter.

I have now acquired a power feeder. But, for a long time, pieces were pushed through by hand, using a stout pusher stick for the last few inches.

[Jeff Monson]

That is how I typically do it. Wax the table well or use some form of dry lubricant like boeshield. And ditto the "large compared to a router bit" comparison. Even little 3/4" cutters dwarf the biggest router bits. For really long stock you might want a bit of additional infeed and out feed support even with a feeder.

For cutters that are too large in diameter to fit in the hole in the table, you can make an MDF cover for the table with a radius cut out in front of the opening in the fence slightly larger than the cutters arc, and a cleat screwed in from underneath on the infeed side to keep this table from moving. Still clamp it down. Its a good move for use with a molding head or some panel raisers so they don't hit the table, but not usually necessary with door sets.

Do you have a power feed? One thing I highly recommend for users new to both the shaper and power feed is dry runs. In fact I still do this. With the fence and feeder set, and the cutter either turned out of the way or removed if necessary (not running), pass some test stock through the feeder setup to see how it behaves. On things like short rails, where that opening in the fence is huge compared to a router, and the distance between wheels is considerable too, it is best to see how things will go without the spinning cutter in the mix. Its funny how little pieces can lift up and get ejected or blown up. DAMHIK

Once you get the hang of the shaper its simple, quite safe and enjoyable. But do proceed cautiously. As you noted, its a lot bigger than a router and setup is not a direct parallel.

Peter, I dont have a powerfeed yet, but its on my short list, very short list as a matter of fact. I've been searching for something used, but around here nothing has popped up. I also watched the reviews of the pm feeders. I really like the size of the 1/4hp pm feeder and also the price is not bad either.......but is 1/4hp enough?

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, I dont have a powerfeed yet, but its on my short list, very short list as a matter of fact. I've been searching for something used, but around here nothing has popped up. I also watched the reviews of the pm feeders. I really like the size of the 1/4hp pm feeder and also the price is not bad either.......but is 1/4hp enough?

I haven't tried a 1/4HP but standard wisdom says 1/2hp is better for the shaper, 1HP is best. I'd guess a 1/4HP will push small cuts like cabinet door parts, maybe not so good for panels or larger molding cuts? I have seen a 1/2HP feeder struggle with some deeper cuts at work, might be an age and condition issue though.

For hand feed of small parts I'd skip the methods I suggested and stick longr runs, cross cut and cope with a backer after personally. The feeder gives more options. That weaver set up with the back fence and pressure bar looks pretty cool, as does the one from Martin (Aigner)....though the price may make you soil yourself. I think any feeder is actually cheaper?

[Jeff Monson]

Peter, thanks as usual, got the beast home today, unpacked, and assembled (wasnt much). This is a really nice shaper, I'm thrilled with quality.

I installed the spindle and a panel raiser, I put the cutter on the bottom, until I get a feeder and cut a couple of panels. It is so much nicer than my router setup. Cant wait to really get to know the possibilities of this machine.

I'm going to try get some more input on feeders. I dont see that pm makes a 1/2 hp model though.

[Glen Butler]

With my PM26 shaper ran the stock on the cast iron and either used a miter guage with the sacrificial fence or a home coping sled. I have since upgraded to a Felder saw/shaper and I need to learn how to best do it on this machine.

I have freeborn cope and pattern cutters. They are matched so you don't have to move the spindle from cope to pattern. Since I cope on a sled I also profile on a sled. The profile sled has a outboard fence that the stock pushes against while climb cutting. This way the feeder doesn't have to fight the climb cut. Since I cut the stock 1/32" oversize, this allows the pattern cutter perfectly dimension all the stiles and rails.

[Dave Cav]

I'm going to try get some more input on feeders. I dont see that pm makes a 1/2 hp model though.

Don't worry about the color or brand. With the exception of the Weaver belt feeders, all the wheeled feeders come from one of two factories in the world, and most of them come from Tiawan. Check out the Grizzly feeders. I have a 1/2 HP Griz on my Delta HD and it works fine. Good luck in finding one used.

[Leo Graywacz]

For short rails you cut a pce that you can run through your stick shaper safely. You cope one end of the rail, then run it through the stick cutter and then do the other cope. You have to make sure to choose the correct way. The second cope must face the cutter so you don't get blow out.

As for the power feeders. I have a couple of 1/4 HP feeders. One on my stick cutter and one on my panel cutter. I set them up at 4 meters/min. No problem what-so-ever holding the pc stable.