Interesting Radio Story About GM

[Pat Germain]

On the weekends, I typically listen to Public Radio while working in the shop. Saturday, I heard an absolutely fascinating story about one particular GM plant in California. In the 1980s, GM actually teamed up with Toyota to produce a car at this plant.

The story includes the perspective of employees, union bosses and management. Overall, I think the producers did a good job of presenting a well-balanced story. I must admit even I was shocked at the deplorable conditions at the plant before the Toyota deal. Workers admitted they were drunk and high on the job and purposely screwed up cars on the assembly line. Management admitted they were overtly hostile toward workers.

If you're interested, you can find it here:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/nummi

[Greg Peterson]

I always enjoy listening to This American Life. Even though this particular episode examines the issue from multiple angles, this program doesn't generally engage in journalism.

If you liked this episode tune in next weekend. Or download the current episode on ITunes every Sunday afternoon.

[Darius Ferlas]

I must admit even I was shocked at the deplorable conditions at the plant before the Toyota deal. Workers admitted they were drunk and high on the job and purposely screwed up cars on the assembly line. Management admitted they were overtly hostile toward workers.
I heard similar stories locally from some who worked in a GM plant nearby. One of the first things taught to newbies was how to sabotage the production line to put it out of business of a few hours for repairs. That gave the workers some time to goof around and forced the management to offer overtime (extra pay rate) so the plant could catch up with the schedule.

[Pat Germain]

I always enjoy listening to This American Life. Even though this particular episode examines the issue from multiple angles, this program doesn't generally engage in journalism.

Good point, Greg. I too enjoy the human stories TAL typicaly has. I especially liked the story about the guy who crashed driving drunk and had a chimpanzee with him. :p

[Greg Peterson]

Pat, episode 295, Act II, "SMALL FISH, SMALLER POND". One of my favorite stories.

Of course not all stories are happy or have happy endings. But they almost alway move you in unexpected ways.

[Charlie Reals]

Pat, I listened to the same radio program and chuckled all the way through it. I worked for GM in Fremont Ca. for a very short time in the late 70's. I could fill a book with what I learned then and what I have heard over the years. It was a common saying not to buy a car finished on Friday or monday. Assembly line is not my gig. I personaly saw sabotage on the line to shut it down. I have several friends who are affected by this shut down. Nummi has been ( according to friends ) a great company to work for.
Charlie

[Carlos Alden]

I always enjoy listening to This American Life. Even though this particular episode examines the issue from multiple angles, this program doesn't generally engage in journalism.

If you liked this episode tune in next weekend. Or download the current episode on ITunes every Sunday afternoon.

Slight hijack... If you like TAL you'll like The Moth, another free podcast. It's a series of real-life stories, told in front of audiences, some of which pop up in TAL if they fit with the show's theme.

Carlos

[Ben Hatcher]

When I was a production supervisor for a GM parts plant I experienced some amount of line sabotage as well. Of course, as management, I was upset that my line was down because it was my job to keep it up and make production. However, as a human and an engineer, I can’t say that I blame all of it on the workers.

Perhaps they were just soft, but I think some of the sabotage was because they actually needing a break. The conditions in the plant weren’t all that great. The roof leaked, there was no insulation, no A/C, and the work was hard. My people would be sore, tired, and sweat up a storm on the line in the summertime. Had I been able to give them more rest breaks especially during hot days I probably would have been able to reduce overall downtime. I wouldn’t want to work that hard in that kind of environment every day for years on end.

The parts design got better over the years. GM put in place design reviews, looked at best practices, etc. The problem that I saw was that the machines designed to build and assemble those parts weren’t given the same attention. Lines were still mostly designed by one person who’s main goal was to rework an existing line to build the new part. The result of this was that line breakdowns weren’t at all uncommon. It would be much harder for a saboteur to get away with shutting down the line if that’s the only way the line ever went down. I think that the lack of climate control played a role, too. In my assembly department a machine that was perfectly calibrated in the evening would end up needing recalibrated by noon because of the temperature swing. Of course, this often required 3 different trades and could take a long time to complete. Stuff like this becomes normal and people expect that out of their day. If the line were to run perfectly all day every day, then that would be normal and they’d be less likely to try and shut it down.

Of course, these are only the problems that I had with good employees who wanted to work. I had plenty who were just screw offs and didn’t want to work. They hated the job and could care less about the product. I hated them, the union hated them. The problem was that the union had to defend them just like any other member or face litigation. When I was a new supervisor, I actually got help from some of my employees to nail the bad apples. Even so, it wasn’t easy.

[Pat Germain]

Interesting perspective, Ben.

One of the issues mentioned in the TAL story was Toyota had a much different parts supply system. When a manager who had worked at the Fremont plant tried to bring the same practices to the Van Nuys plant, this was a major obstacle. He would get parts that simply didn't fit. When he called the supplier, their reaction was, "Everyone else is dealing with it. What makes you so special?". Whereas, in the Toyota system, the supplier would work very hard to fix the problem; and it was OK to shut down the line until the problem was fixed.

At the end of the story, it was also mentioned that Toyota has suffered recent problems very similar to GM's problems back in the 80s. Toyota executives were focusing so hard on growing their business, they lost sight of their quality controls. (As has been mentioned here in other forums.)

As Alton Brown likes to say, "There's a lesson here...".

[Chuck Wintle]

very interesting report on GM. Since they are part of the government it was ironic that Toyota was put through the wringer earlier this year. I wonder if that was a coincidence?

[Paul Ryan]

very interesting report on GM. Since they are part of the government it was ironic that Toyota was put through the wringer earlier this year. I wonder if that was a coincidence?


Toyota's current problems are self induced for many many reasons.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Would you make the same statment about GM's past and present problems Paul?

I think it could be the nature of large corporations and the labor supporting them. Each group gets greedy worrying primarily about their own selfish desires and both forget about 2 primary factors.

1) The customers 2) the product.

I am firmly convinced if a company will take care to produce a good product at a reasonable price and be responsive to the needs of the customer and the company's employees......always keeping in mind what is "reasonable"....business will prosper.

I don't believe the old adage that the customer is always right. That is ridiculous. There are a number people out there who will always want something to complain about. If you gave them a $1,000,000 they would complain because they had to pay taxes on it. In some case with these kinds of customers you are better off losing their business as you will never satisfy them and the amount of negative advertising you get as a result will far outweigh the few dollars you might make from the sale.

But....while the customer isn't always right...they are always the customer and I think a company has to go out of their way to meet "reasonable" expectations to satisfy the customer.

Part of the problem is the culture of corporate management and manner in which the board of directors allow them to operate. Even that relationship is incestuous. The board hires and/or promotes the CEO.....and the CEO and management recommend who gets elected to the board. In today's world management doesn't necessarily answer to the shareholders...they answer to the price of the stock on Wallstreet. Too many decisions made are short term solutions to problems without any analysis of possible long term effects. Too many corporate managers are ladder climbers....decisions are made....the individuals know well it was a short term solution but they don't care as they will be up the ladder, sideways or have moved onto another corporation before the decision is found to be faulty and they can be held responsible for that decision. It's the corporate culture of dodging responsibilty or palming the responsibility off on someone else.

Then there is the corporate culture of self analysis and self aggrandizement where you write your own annual review and oh....BTW.. be sure to puff up your accomplishments.....beating your chest....shouting "How great I am".

Beyond this, engineers are not usually known for running a profitable company. Yet, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if your main deciding factor in most decisions is maximizing profit to the point of being greedy....even in the design process......you could end up with a poor design that is profitable until it catches up to you.

There has to be some reasonable expectations on the part of management, engineering and manufacturing....and yes.....labor..too!

Everybody has to keep in mind what is reasonable.

BTW.....I don't watch the program mentioned nor do I listen to NPR, FOX, CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN or any of the other news channels. In general there is little or no unbiased reporting today.
Almost all of it has a bias. It burns me up to think that any of these biased groups think that they have to produce a commentary so they can "SPLAIN" what is going on to me. Just give me the facts. I can bias it or mistaken it for myself.......Thank you!

[Chuck Wintle]

Toyota's current problems are self induced for many many reasons.

and with the help agenda driven media blown up out of proportion but GM, now a branch of the US gov't, may just enjoy some "protection" from this kind of bad press since both have a vested interest in selling cars.

[Pat Germain]

BTW.....I don't watch the program mentioned nor do I listen to NPR, FOX, CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN or any of the other news channels. In general there is little or no unbiased reporting today.
Almost all of it has a bias. It burns me up to think that any of these biased groups think that they have to produce a commentary so they can "SPLAIN" what is going on to me. Just give me the facts. I can bias it or mistaken it for myself.......Thank you!

This program is a radio program, Ken. I would encourage you to check it out. I won't say it has absolutely no bias whatsoever. But I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. The program just presents the story as told by people involved. The narrator adds only a few details here and there. I think you'd find it interesting and refreshingly factual.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Pat,

I have listened to the program once or twice....I was channel surfing while drivng and came across it.

I believe there is a version of it on Public Television too.

I have yet to hear little on NPR or Public TV that is unbiased with the exception of NYW, TOH etc. A lot of the broadcast material is not only biased but in accurate at best. When something is incomplete...it's inaccurate. When you report only one side of a story....or a biased commmentary without equal time for the other argument, the article is inaccurate.

I am tired of an elitist, self-agrandizing media deciding what is the correct perspective on a subject or how something should be reported to me. Give me the cold, hard facts. I can make up my own mind.

[Curt Harms]

I heard similar stories locally from some who worked in a GM plant nearby. One of the first things taught to newbies was how to sabotage the production line to put it out of business of a few hours for repairs. That gave the workers some time to goof around and forced the management to offer overtime (extra pay rate) so the plant could catch up with the schedule.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face?

[Paul Ryan]

and with the help agenda driven media blown up out of proportion but GM, now a branch of the US gov't, may just enjoy some "protection" from this kind of bad press since both have a vested interest in selling cars.

Recently GM has announced some new recalls as well. So they are not above the negative publicity.

General Motors, and all the american manufacturers have had and still suffer problems. The status quo of the past finally caught up to them. All through the 60-00's the american companies had very little competition. They dug their own graves. GM still does some very dumb things if you ask me. I see their mistakes day in and day out. But I also see the mistakes that all the manufacturers make.

My position has and will be for time that Toyota is the big evil. The 800lb gorilla. Toyota out grew their own shoes and to compensate quality has suffered as well. But what the different about the Toyota situation is that when suggested that they recall something, they tried to cover it up. If you know much about the auto industry. All of the 3 american companies have tried this in the 60's. But learned their lessons hard and fast. Now days when suggested they fix a problem by NTSA, they do it fast and respectfully. What has gotten Toyota in so much trouble was denying the fact that there was a problem, and continuing to produce unsafe products when they knew there was an issue. Instead of engineering and designing better products they have went out of their way to cover the problems up. And the public perception that Toyota's "stuff" doesn't stink has added to the problems. I don't think you will see these problem with the imports because they are so much smaller.

GM and all of the companies have made some despicable products in the past. Many think I am a GM lover. But far from it. I am an american auto lover. Having seen some of the disasters that the americans have produced I still believe that some of their products are as good and in some cases better than the current offerings from the imports.

[Ben Hatcher]

I got a chance to listen to the program last night. My experiences were similar to many of those voiced in the program. Labor relations were pretty terrible in my view and people told me they were much worse before I started. From what I saw, my boss tried to get me to treat my employees like dirt and I one or two people made a point of filing at least one grievance against me every week. There were plenty of people who wanted to work as a team. I’d go so far as to say that most of them wanted to work together. The labor agreements and those that wanted to live by the letter of them kept us from being able to do that.

It seems to me that when a company gets to the point where the workers feel the need to unionize, the culture is already shot. I didn’t stay at that plant long. I couldn’t. The culture was terrible and I didn’t see a future based on the way both sides were going at each other, the factory’s financials, and the condition of the PP&E. Labor wasn’t going to wake up and see that they needed to partner with management and management wasn’t going to invest in new equipment when the factory wasn’t going to last. While there, I tried to get my people to work as a team. Many did, and several were reprimanded by the union just as I was. There was no way that culture was going to change, and without a culture shift, the plant and all of their jobs were going to be history. By the end, I told them all to keep raping the company for as much as they could while they still could. I thought it would be closed in 7 years. It lasted 8. It seems like every one of them thought that taking more than they deserved wasn’t a big deal. GM is this big thing, too big to fail and they’re just taking a small piece, right? What they didn’t realize was that our little plant was a microcosm of the whole company. Every plant was doing the same thing. They all wanted a bigger piece without doing more work. Well, I hope those people are happy with their dead golden egg laying goose.

[Pat Germain]

The GM situation reminds of a classic short story called "The Phoenix" by Sylvia Townsend Warner:

http://www.blesok.com.mk/tekst.asp?lang=eng&tekst=209

[Paul Ryan]

The GM situation reminds of a classic short story called "The Phoenix" by Sylvia Townsend Warner:

http://www.blesok.com.mk/tekst.asp?lang=eng&tekst=209

Pat,

I think that is an excellent analogy. The sad thing about the whole situation is that the american 3 knew they were down the wrong road in the late 90's and 00's and did nothing about it.

[Chuck Wintle]

Recently GM has announced some new recalls as well. So they are not above the negative publicity.

General Motors, and all the american manufacturers have had and still suffer problems. The status quo of the past finally caught up to them. All through the 60-00's the american companies had very little competition. They dug their own graves. GM still does some very dumb things if you ask me. I see their mistakes day in and day out. But I also see the mistakes that all the manufacturers make.

My position has and will be for time that Toyota is the big evil. The 800lb gorilla. Toyota out grew their own shoes and to compensate quality has suffered as well. But what the different about the Toyota situation is that when suggested that they recall something, they tried to cover it up. If you know much about the auto industry. All of the 3 american companies have tried this in the 60's. But learned their lessons hard and fast. Now days when suggested they fix a problem by NTSA, they do it fast and respectfully. What has gotten Toyota in so much trouble was denying the fact that there was a problem, and continuing to produce unsafe products when they knew there was an issue. Instead of engineering and designing better products they have went out of their way to cover the problems up. And the public perception that Toyota's "stuff" doesn't stink has added to the problems. I don't think you will see these problem with the imports because they are so much smaller.

GM and all of the companies have made some despicable products in the past. Many think I am a GM lover. But far from it. I am an american auto lover. Having seen some of the disasters that the americans have produced I still believe that some of their products are as good and in some cases better than the current offerings from the imports.

thats quite a torch you carry for american cars makers. !!:D

[Karl Card]

I wanted an american vehicle, so i bought a 2007 chevy silverado...gee it wasnt made in america, it was made in mexico... i wanted still another vehicle made in america i bought a 2008 ford f150 supercrew,,gee it wasnt made in america either...it was made in canada.. but I can go buy a honda made in ohio, a nissan made in tennessee, a hyundai made in alabama and a toyota made in princeton, indiana. But these imports made in the states arent american though are they? I have to wonder what is an american car. Just like Harley Davidson riders, gotta have american bikes, ok what makes a harley an american bike? The starter that is made in japan?

[Charlie Reals]

Imo an American made car would me anything put together from Alaska to Tierra Del Fuego off the tip of Chili. Made in America means nothing and there is very little made in the U.S.A. anymore. Don't mean to start a political battle but geography is geography lol.

[Brian Elfert]

On the weekends, I typically listen to Public Radio while working in the shop. Saturday, I heard an absolutely fascinating story about one particular GM plant in California. In the 1980s, GM actually teamed up with Toyota to produce a car at this plant.


This is (or was) the NUMMI plant that was a joint operation between Toyota and GM. The plant actually closed down today (March 31st).

In recent years this plant has basically been a Toyota plant producing a variety of Toyota models. The Pontiac Vibe was also made here. The Vibe is a Toyota Matrix with different body panels.

The Vibe is so throughly Toyota that it was even affected by the accelerator recall. GM placed the blame squarely on Toyota in the recall letter I got for my 2009 Vibe. Part of the reason I bought the Vibe was because it is really a Toyota vehicle and not a GM vehicle.

[Karl Card]

Imo an American made car would me anything put together from Alaska to Tierra Del Fuego off the tip of Chili. Made in America means nothing and there is very little made in the U.S.A. anymore. Don't mean to start a political battle but geography is geography lol.

You actually brought up a good point...lol seriously,, nothing ever says made in suth america, north america etc... maybe that is where i went astray...

[Pat Germain]

And, for some reason, most people don't consider Mexico to be North America. But it is!

[Charlie Reals]

Just talked to my BIL who was employed by Nummi in Fremont. He got out with a $37,000 severance package. He has new employment.

[Ken Garlock]

Ken Fitzgerald said:

BTW.....I don't watch the program mentioned nor do I listen to NPR, FOX, CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN or any of the other news channels. In general there is little or no unbiased reporting today.
Almost all of it has a bias. It burns me up to think that any of these biased groups think that they have to produce a commentary so they can "SPLAIN" what is going on to me. Just give me the facts. I can bias it or mistaken it for myself.......Thank you!

Ken, I always thought, and still do, that you are an intelligent man.:) However, your statement above surprises me, to say the least.:eek:
I am a big fan of the "Fox News Channel", and feel that it is the ONLY TV news media where you can get the straight story. Many people do not like Glenn Beck, many do not like Sean Hannity, and and that is fair because they are opinion programs that deal with politics and every body but the brain dead understand that. The remainder of the programing is, as Fox likes to say, Fair and balanced. You get the facts, not some left-wing buffoon. If you want news not propaganda, tune into Fox News for the programs starting in the early evening, Two straight news programs, O'Reilly for news analysis, Hannity for Regan politics(opinion), and Gretta for news analysis.
The news and analysis programs are NO BS programs with guests from BOTH sides of the aisle.

Ken, be fair and balanced and agive it a try.

[Carlos Alden]

Then I remembered it's April 1.

Ha ha. Good one.

Carlos

[Mac McQuinn]

Charles,
Actually the US government "Only" owns 60% of GM......:rolleyes:

Mac



and with the help agenda driven media blown up out of proportion but GM, now a branch of the US gov't, may just enjoy some "protection" from this kind of bad press since both have a vested interest in selling cars.

[Brian Kent]

Ken Garlock, as someone who partakes of the right, left and middle of the stream, I would have to say that Fox News actually does have a bias, and it is a little to the right of center.

I can see how it would seem fair and balanced if you think the left wing consists of "baffoons". But that would mean it represents your point of view, which is fair enough for your taste and okay with me. But, yes, Fox News is biased.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Good April fool's joke, Ken.

In all seriousness, Apple recently decided to pull all advertising from Fox News (http://www.tuaw.com/2010/03/29/apple-boycotts-fox-news-because-of-glenn-beck/). We could argue all day about whether or not we think they are really "Fair and balanced", but when paying advertisers start pulling their ads from a network, that seems like a pretty good sign that they've gone off the deep end.

[Ken Garlock]

Ken Garlock, as someone who partakes of the right, left and middle of the stream, I would have to say that Fox News actually does have a bias, and it is a little to the right of center.

I can see how it would seem fair and balanced if you think the left wing consists of "baffoons". But that would mean it represents your point of view, which is fair enough for your taste and okay with me. But, yes, Fox News is biased.

Hi Brian, I will give you the point that Fox tends to be a little right, but that is all, just a little. If you watch the straight news, you will find it difficult to find a bias. If you watch the analysis programs, you will see people from both the left and the right manning a panel concurrently. Are all the left people bad, absolutely not. Are there less than 20% that make all the noise, yes. The same can be said about the far right. IMO, they are both wrong.

Was my original post an April fools joke, not in the least! To those that thought it was, Enjoy your Kool Aid.

A week so so ago I heard a guest on Imus in the morning program(I think it was Imus?) comment that MSNBC has more letters in it name than viewers.:D For those of you that like to identify jokes, that's a joke son.

With this I am done commenting.:):)

[Dan Friedrichs]

If you watch the analysis programs, you will see people from both the left and the right manning a panel concurrently.


Not to get political here, but your assertion that Fox News equally airs "left" and "right" political views is patently untrue:

"...in a study of a 19 week period from January 2001 to May 2001 the ratio of conservative guests to liberals on Special Report with Brit Hume (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/wiki/Special_Report_with_Brit_Hume) was 50:6, and similar [ratios] for other Fox shows"

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1072



If you don't believe that data, count for yourself. Sit down for an hour of Fox News, write down the names of the guests, then look up their party affiliations. Do it day after day after day, and you'll find the same conclusion that FAIR found - that Fox News over-represents right-leaning commentary.

If you genuinely want something "balanced", shouldn't all views be represented equally? If you believe you'll find that on Fox News, I'd challenge you to do the test I describe above. I (and many others) have done it, and found a HUGE imbalance.

Personally, I love being able to collect and evaluate data for myself. While I can't be all over the world collecting news, I can perform the simple test described above to judge the objectiveness of those who gather the news for me. There is nothing political about this - it's just simple raw data that you can gather and analyze for yourself. Try it.

[Brian Kent]

But back to GM and cars and stuff…

When bought my first Honda Accord made n Marysville, Ohio, I was surprised that that car was officially, "Made in the USA" because it was over a threshold of 70% USA or Canadian parts, assembled in the US. The same year, the all-American "Crown Victoria" had become under 70% - no longer carrying a "Made in the USA" tag.

For her next car a couple of years from now, my wife wants a truck with pretty good mileage. We don't haul any trailers. Small engine is fine stick is fine with her. (And with me when I go get lumber).

What would you folks recommend in a small to medium size light-duty truck for my wife in 2 years? (She loved her '97 Dakota, except for the hunks of plastic that would fall out from under the dash for no apparent reason).

What do you recommend? Ford? GM? Dodge? Toyota? Remember - small truck, not a toy hauler. Has to be a cute runabout and extremely reliable.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I didn't mean my previous comments to be political but apparently they were. As such this thread has had several political comments made which violates the TOSs.

Since I was involved, to be fair, I will not edit the comments.

I will instread close the thread for further comments until another moderator has taken on the task to clean it up of it's political comments.