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Tony Shea
03-28-2010, 5:04 PM
This may belong in the Neander section therefore correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways, I'm in the market for some new waterstones as I am converting from the scary sharp method. Just kind of growing out of it. Problem is that I just can't decide on who's stones to get. I stumbled across these Shapton Glass Stones, which are also called ceramic stones on this site, and thought they sound pretty good. What is everyone's experience with these Shaptons? They look to be very thin, should they last as long as a Norton Water Stone? I still plan on using scary sharp for the coarse grits and creating the initial bevels. Therefore am considering just getting 3 stones. How does this combination sound.... 1000grit, 4000grit, and the 16000grit? I am kind of anal about getting the edge polished so would it be reasonable going from the 4000 stone to the 16000 and skipping the 8000? The whole stone concept is somewhat new to me so any other suggestions are welcom as well, such as other brands of stones.

Shapton Stones (http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Shapton-Ceramic-Water-Stones-C84.aspx)

george wilson
03-28-2010, 5:34 PM
I looked at them. The 30,000 grit one is very expensive!! I have the Spyderco black and white stones. They have served me quite well,and aren't that expensive. They were $24.00 each when I bought them. Don't know the present price. A few strop strokes and they produce a mirror edge. I just put some Flitz or Simichrome on the smooth leather glued to a board that I use.

If you buy the Spyderco,get the super fine one. The fine ones are the same,but aren't perfectly flat,and have ceramic fuzz in places. I scrubbed my white one on a diamond stone for an hour to flatten and smooth it out. Now,with the newer super fine stone,you get a nice,flat,fully smooth stone. They are about 1/2" X 2" X 8",and will NEVER wear out or get hollow.

Doug Roper Chairmaker
03-28-2010, 5:57 PM
Tony,
I use Shapton stones - 1000, 5000, 15000, and have been very satisified. As for their thinness,they are harder than typical waterstones and this allows them to wear just as long. I've seen combinations of stones, depending on your usage, available for purchase at a savings. These combos come in sets labeled Woodworker - 1000, 4000, 8000 or Straight Razor - 1000, 6000, 16000.

Hope this helps...

John Coloccia
03-28-2010, 6:06 PM
I like the Shaptons. The best thing about them is that they don't need to be soaked. Just splash a little water on them and go. Nortons, especially the coarse grits, wear faster than the Shaptons in my experience. Combine that with the soaking, and I don't bother with anything under 8000 grit Nortons, at which point they don't require soaking anymore either.

So I use DMT plates for the coarse grits (flattening other stones, flattening backs, establishing bevels, etc), a Norton 8000 to hone, and a Shapton 16000 for a final polish, finished off by a leather strop to get that ridiculously sharp edge.

If I had to do it again, I would dump the Norton stone and simply have a DMT DUO Coarse/Fine, a Shapton 8000, and a Shapton 16000. You may want to add a 4000 as well, but I haven't found it to be nescessary yet.

gary Zimmel
03-28-2010, 6:50 PM
Another Shapton Glass Stone user.
I've been using them for close to three years and love them.
As John said, splash some water on them and away you go.

Russ Massery
03-28-2010, 9:54 PM
I when with the "pro" stone instead of the glass stones. The same stones but thicker. The glass allows them to sell the thinner stone. So there less expensive. They stay flat longer then a waterstone. And as they said above the don't need to be soaked before using. I've heard Naniwa are good also.

Christian Castillo
03-28-2010, 10:51 PM
Usually a recommended stone grit progression is 2.5x - 3.5x. The 4000-16000 seems like quite a bit of a jump and you will have to spend more time over the 16000 grit stone to remove the 4000 grit scratches, this will cause premature wear. By all means if you are up for a bit more time over the 16000 grit stone then it is possible. The 1000-4000-8000 combo is a good jump in grit, I've found the 8000 grit shapton glassstone to provide a mirror finish and create a blade capable of shaving arm hair.

Doug Roper Chairmaker
03-29-2010, 9:16 AM
When I had conversations, a year ago, with Shapton (HMS Enterprises), I was told there were differences in the formula used in the "pro" stones and the glass backed stones. The glass stones are supposed to handle A-2 steel better and last just as long as the "pro" stones. You might want to speak to Harrelson Stanley at HMS Enterprises, 1-877-692-3624, to get more current information about Shapton stones.

John Coloccia
03-29-2010, 10:03 AM
That's my understanding too. They save costs by gluing down to glass and making them thinner, but the total usuable material is the same (the pros will eventually crack when they get thin), and I understand that it's a different formula as well.

Rob Fisher
03-29-2010, 1:09 PM
How does one flatten the glass stone? How about the pro stone?

Rob

Alex Silva
03-29-2010, 1:11 PM
I guess that you could glue a pro stone to glass using epoxy..

Christian Castillo
03-29-2010, 1:44 PM
Flattening can be taken care of by 220 grit wet or dry sand paper on top of a reference surface ( cast iron, granite, glass). Flattening is the same for all stones.

Tony Shea
03-29-2010, 3:54 PM
Thanks so far for all the responses. I'm still undecided though as what to get. I really don't want to spend a ton on stones but think I like the Shapton Glass stones. I think it would just be less of a hassle and mess than dealing with a tub of water with all my stones inside. It seems as though you'd have to change the water on a regular basis otherwise it would get gross, probably weekly as water doesn't last long without getting real slimey and stagnant. I like the splash of water idea better. So if I go with the Shapton's should I also get their flattening stone or should I just use 220grit sandpaper glued to glass? What works best and is easier?

John Coloccia
03-29-2010, 4:02 PM
I happen to use the coarse side of my DMT duo for flattening. Their flattening stone is big bucks. A granite plate and some sandpaper would be much cheaper if you didn't want to use the diamond stone for some reason.

David Gilbert
03-29-2010, 4:36 PM
I have the Shapton 1000 & 8000 stones, Norton 220 / 1000 water stone and a finer Japanese water stone. I am using the sharpening system that Lie-Nielsen suggests and previously used the Scary Sharp system. The Norton 220 is very soft and I don't use it much. The Norton 1000 is coarser than the Shapton 1000 and jumping up to the 8000 seems to work just fine. I haven't tried the finer Shaptons but don't think I need that extra honing.

I flatten all of my stones after I use them (every time). I have the DMT very coarse/coarse stone but really prefer flattening with the granite plate and 180 or 220 wet dry sandpaper. My impression (translate this as undocumented opinion) is that I tend to rock the stones with the diamond stones more than when I use the granite plate. However when I away from home I will take the much lighter diamond stone as a flattener. My impression is that flattening doesn't remove much material from the stone. I'm expecting these Shaptons to last a long, long time, like 15 - 20 years.

Cheers,
David

Christian Castillo
03-29-2010, 5:48 PM
As far as flattening goes, you can start yourself off flattening for cheap with sandpaper, but as time goes, it turns out to be the expensive alternative as sandpaper wears fast and the cost will accumulate. In the long run its actually the expensive alternative and the messiest one to boot. If you are willing to take a instant hit to the wallet and get it over with for a while, DMT Diasharp plates do the job well. however, for very coarse stones (500 grit and below) I recommend sand paper as the coarse stones are not likely to be used often ( unless you chip your edges constantly or restore a lot of old tools) and the coarse stones will wear out the diamond lapping plate fast. The Shapton diamond flattening stone is probably the best one out there but is very costly. Being so costly, it is suggested you use it only to flatten stones 4000 grit and above to avoid premature wear, unless of course you don't mind spending 3XX$.

If you want something in between the price of DMT and Shapton, there are the Atoma diamond lapping plates. They are around 100 dollars and the guys on the shaving razor message boards say they are flatter than the DMT diasharps and have the diamonds arranged in patterns so that there is no suction to the stone being flattened. You must apply pressure evenly and carefully while lapping if you use a diamond lapping stone more-so than a larger surface ala sandpaper on a reference. In the past, I have experienced what David has mentioned by lapping fast and heavy handed and without much thought.

Tony Shea
03-29-2010, 7:31 PM
Well that's good news David, you expect these Shaptons to last that long. I was actually somewhat concerned with the life expectancy of them due to their size. But that's very reassuring. At one point I was contemplating buying the DMT Dia-sharp stones but heard a few places that they aren't usually very flat. Just can't imagine that DMT thinks they can sell diamond plates that aren't flat, what's the point. They go on to say "The diamond surface is ground to be very flat". Well that's real nice but the plate your putting the diamonds on isn't flat then why bother. And I've used a regular DMT 6" stone and really don't care for it too much. I don't like the holes in the metal as I tend to get hung up when honing a small pointed object such as a marking knife. So hence my reasoning for considering the Shaptons. I appreciate the help and think I will def go with some Shapton Glass stones. Any good suggestions on where to buy these that might come in sets of 3? Sharpening supplies.com has a set but I don't like the combination they offer (500, 2000, 16000). It just seems as though all steps are a big jump to grit size. I also don't need a real coarse grit as I decided I do fine with 80 grit paper glued to a plate of glass.

Jim McFarland
03-29-2010, 8:03 PM
<snip> Any good suggestions on where to buy these that might come in sets of 3? <snip>

I haven't compared prices recently but Craftsman Studio is a very good vendor in my experience.

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/ShaptonGlassStoneProducts.htm

Rick Erickson
03-29-2010, 8:48 PM
I think it depends on your sharpening method. I own the Shaptons (1000, 4000, 8000, 16000). For sharpening plane blades and chisels I use 1000 and 16000 exclusively. I use the 1000 for a secondary bevel straight from the grinder. I then go to a 16000 for a tertiary bevel and a secondary bevel on the back of the blade (ruler trick). I only use my 4000 and 8000 for initial flattening of the backs (if necessary). The stones last a very long time - no worries there.

Brian Kent
03-29-2010, 9:40 PM
I am extremely happy with this set:

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q0000010.htm

Alex Silva
03-29-2010, 10:17 PM
www.sharpeningsupplies.com (http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com)
www.chefknivestogo.com (http://www.chefknivestogo.com)

Now the last site carry also the Naniwa Super stones almost 1'' thick and I've ordered the #1000 and #8000 from them.

Cheers

Alex

Tony Shea
03-30-2010, 9:52 AM
How's the wear on the Naniwa Super stones? Do they dish out pretty fast on tools like chisels and plane irons compared to the Shaptons Glass Stones? Are they more of just a regular water stone in construction?

Derek Cohen
03-30-2010, 10:37 AM
I have Pro Shaptons for a some years now - 1000/5000/8000/12000 (Mostly the 1000/5000/12000 are used).

To flatten these I first used a 10" DMT Extra Coarse diamond stone. This is rated at 275 and did a great job. Quick and flat.

After a few years I had an opportunity to try out the Shapton diamond plate, which is also rated as 275 grit. For some reason this just felt more comfortable and easier to use, as well as quicker. I cannot say why. Anyway it was expensive and I really could not justify the cost when I had a successful system.

A year goes by and I am offered a new, unused Shapton diamond plate at a deceased estate sale. The price was too good to pass up, and so I bought it.

Its been a couple of years since the Shaptin DP came to live in my shop. The more I use it the more I like it over the DMT. However, the DMT would make 99% of users very happy.

It is a lot of nonsense that a diamond plate will wear out on water or ceramic stones. They most certainly will eventually wear out on steel ... but not on the Shaptons. The lower grit stones are more important to have flat that the high grit stones as they are the ones shaping the steel. The high grits just refine/polish the final shape. Reserving the DPs for the higher grits is a total waste. Use them and enjoy them!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ruperto Mendiones
03-31-2010, 12:08 PM
Speaking as a graduate of handtools [aka sharpening bootcamp] at Cerritos College:

Because I could not achieve a good polish on A2 steel, I switched from all DMT stones to Shaptons. I have been using 1000, 4000, and 8000 grits. A classmate at Cerritos College has the 16K stone and says that he notices little difference from stopping at 8K.

It seems to me that the ~$300 diamond flattening stone that Shapton offers removes less material to achieve a flat surface than sandpaper on glass. Too, it is much more convenient.

As an observer of many sharpening methods my classmates used, I find the Shapton stones produce the best results with the least time and effort.

Ross Canant
04-01-2010, 10:42 PM
I use the Pro Shaptons as well, 1000, 5000, 8000. I flatten mine using the abrasive powder on an old metal lathe faceplate, a big one. It works just fine and cost $5.

Alex Leslie
04-02-2010, 3:55 PM
I've been using abrasive films on a glass plate. Lee Valley has a good selelction. I think $1,000 worth of films might outlast the same in stones at my shop.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33004&cat=1,43072

I have also thought about trying one of these:

http://www.blumtool.com/pages/sharpeningjig.html

Anybody have any experience with one?

Eddie Darby
04-02-2010, 4:00 PM
How can you grow out of Scary Sharp?
It is far better than waterstones.

The problem with waterstones, that Shapton manage to solve with their diamond lapping plate is that stones go out of flat.

Glass Diamond Lapping Plate - $319.95

Sandpaper on a granite plate will always be flat!

The key to getting sharp edges is having a truly flat surface on your abrasive to start with. Anything you try to do on a surface that is not truly flat will only be bound to fail.

Alex Silva
04-02-2010, 4:19 PM
well you can flatten that waterstone with sandpaper on a granite plate..

Sam Takeuchi
04-02-2010, 5:48 PM
Or use a simple diamond stone (even a $25 one would do if it's flat, mine is) to flatten water/ceramic stones no problem. No need to have supplies of abrasive papers either.

While flat surface may be desirable for sharpening, the kind of flatness more fitting for machine production and metal working is really not going to do that much over a blade sharpened on a stone that hasn't been flattened to that kind of precision.

In fact, if blade has to be sharpened on a truly flat surface in order not to fail, most woodworking bladed tools of the past 3000 or 4000 years failed. But they didn't, because it's not necessary. Of course you shouldn't be trying to sharpen a blade on a stone that's visibly bumpy and can feel the bump or dip, but a lot of people have ways to compensate for minor irregularities in order to achieve acceptably flat and straight edge. It may not be as straight or flat, but fine for woodworking.

Tony Shea
04-02-2010, 6:35 PM
How can you grow out of Scary Sharp?
It is far better than waterstones.


I'm just not convinced that the scary sharp is giving me quite the edge I can get from a water stone but have no experience with stones to base that opinion on. Don't get me wrong my edges are truely sharp and may be as sharp as they're going to get. My biggest issue is I don't really like the feedback (feel) I get when using 3M micro abrasives. Especially when getting into the 5micron to .3micron. It really offers no feedback what so ever. I actually like the 15 micron and would probably keep that grit around and skip out on the 1000grit stone. I'd actually like to try someone's stones to see what it's like in the higher grits to see if I like the results any better.

John Coloccia
11-01-2010, 7:43 PM
I looked at them. The 30,000 grit one is very expensive!! I have the Spyderco black and white stones. They have served me quite well,and aren't that expensive. They were $24.00 each when I bought them. Don't know the present price. A few strop strokes and they produce a mirror edge. I just put some Flitz or Simichrome on the smooth leather glued to a board that I use.

If you buy the Spyderco,get the super fine one. The fine ones are the same,but aren't perfectly flat,and have ceramic fuzz in places. I scrubbed my white one on a diamond stone for an hour to flatten and smooth it out. Now,with the newer super fine stone,you get a nice,flat,fully smooth stone. They are about 1/2" X 2" X 8",and will NEVER wear out or get hollow.

OK, everyone. George nailed this one. I was getting tired of my waterstones and wanted to try something simple. I picked up a black and white (ultra-fine) Spyderco stones to try them. Here are my observations:

The ultra-fine was dead flat but the black stone was was out...way WAY out. I've been rubbing it with a coarse diamond stone, and it's getting flat...it will take a while.

I spent a couple of hours re-sharpening some chisels and planes. First I put them on my Tormek to fix up the edges and get a hollow grind, because that's what I like. I didn't bother to surface the wheel to the "finer" grit. I just took them off however they came. Then I took them to the ultra-fine Spyderco. It takes about ten swipes to completely remove the Tormek's coarse scratch pattern. Then I stropped it with Simichrome.

And the end result? Guys, these things are sharp, and I mean SHARP. Ridiculously sharp, actually. Not only that, this is by far the fastest I've ever sharpened in my life. Mind you, I wasn't just touching up my bevels. I changed all my LN chisels to a 30 degree bevel. That took all of maybe a minute on the Tormek...maybe 1 1/2 minutes if you count setup time. Then another minute to hone them on the Spyderco and maybe 30 seconds to strop them.

No flattening stones. No spray bottles. No sharpening juice all over the place. Do I have any gripes? Yeah. The stupid stones are only 2" wide so I have to sharpen my larger plane irons without a guide, using circular/figure 8 patterns instead of long strokes. This is really not a big deal, especially with the hollow grind. I wish they had a slightly wider stone though. I guess I can use the guide at an angle, but there's really no reason to.

Anyhow, you don't really hear much about these stones other than George constantly recommending them so I thought I'd chime in as a recent convert. The ultra-fine is the real deal. The black one is disappointing but I suspect I may not use it other than an initial flattening of the back of a chisel, and by then I'll have gotten the stupid thing flat :)

Joe A Faulkner
11-01-2010, 10:29 PM
... The stupid stones are only 2" wide so I have to sharpen my larger plane irons without a guide, using circular/figure 8 patterns instead of long strokes. ...:)


John, I noted that at least one on-line supplier offers the ultra fine spyderco in a 8x3.

Russell Sansom
11-02-2010, 5:46 AM
It's always interesting how our experiences vary.
The Shaptons have turned out well for me...and I've been sharpening to my own ( perfectionistic ) satisfaction using oil stones for decades. It's the "sprinkle and go" that makes a big difference for me. If I'm in the middle of a project, I have no hesitation walking over to the sharpening station, spritzing the couple stones of interest, and touching up a chisel or a plane iron. This is followed by a conscientious drying with a rag, and I'm back to work after two minutes. The process with oil of years past wasn't much different but it was a little harder to wipe off the oil.

Can't picture using the 16k Shapton following a 1k. It seems to me that the 16k polishes, but doesn't remove scratches. I generally go 1k / 5k / 8 k. Usually two or three strokes on each stone does the trick. I take two brief swipes on the 16k if it's an all new edge. According to what I see in the low powered microscope, on a mid-project touch-up, the damage on the leading edge is out of range of the 16k.

Tri Hoang
11-02-2010, 11:30 AM
I normally use a 1500/5000/12000 sharpton pro system and find them satisfactory - fast cutting, no need to presoak. I also use a Bester 500 for shaping. Sometimes, I think a 3000 would be a nice addition when I don't use micro bevels (mostly on chisels).

Mike Brady
11-02-2010, 4:08 PM
Anyone know why Lie-Nielsen quietly dropped the Shaptons from their catalog? At WIA they were sharpening with Nortons.
I know you guys with Shaptons are gungho on how flat they stay but every time I see them used in videos or seminars, the user flattens them first with that dearly priced diamond hone. That has to take its toll on a stone that is pretty thin from the start.

David Weaver
11-02-2010, 4:31 PM
They don't wear too quickly with a diamond hone, the matrix is too hard, and hopefully they were only wearing at them with the diamond hone until they got all of the swarf marks off the stones. If they were doing more than that, it's just wasting stone.

Still, I have no idea why shapton tried to shove the glasstone down the throat of the US market. The marketing hooey about not using the whole stone so glass is a better idea for the bottom doesn't pan out if you just attach the stone to a good substrate to begin with, and the glasstones aren't exactly a pleasure to use without a base - at least not once you've used a stone with a good heavy base and some grit. As a buyer, I want all of the sharpening media i can get, and I'll figure out how to use it, especially on a stone that's $100.

If value is of concern at all, the diamond lapping plate they sell is a waste of money, dearly priced is absolutely spot on. I'm sure it works well, but so does a $100 atoma.

It may also not have helped that LN probably had to go through an importer to get glasstones, which is just too many layers of people wanting a piece of the pie.

Derek Cohen
11-03-2010, 1:56 AM
......Still, I have no idea why shapton tried to shove the glasstone down the throat of the US market. The marketing hooey about not using the whole stone so glass is a better idea for the bottom doesn't pan out if you just attach the stone to a good substrate to begin with, and the glasstones aren't exactly a pleasure to use without a base - at least not once you've used a stone with a good heavy base and some grit. As a buyer, I want all of the sharpening media i can get, and I'll figure out how to use it, especially on a stone that's $100.....

Hi David

I have Shapton Pros. My experience with a 5000 and 8000 was that they moved slightly (from the time they were last used/flattened). Consequently I epoxied them to 1/4" thick glass plate - effectively turning them into glass stones :)

To prevent them sliding, they are set into rubber holders.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/Shaptonwaterstones1.jpg

These are a 1000, 5000 and 12000. Side on here as most of my honing is done with a freehand side sharpening technique.

Regards from Perth

Derek

David Weaver
11-03-2010, 9:52 AM
They moved...like drying wood? Yikes.

A picture of what I've done with my pro stones is below. I had a scrap board of kingwood, which was pretty close to dead quartersawn, and not wide enough for plane totes. There are rubber feet like you would put on a cabinet door, and they have stayed on better than I would've expected.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=150683

(i would post the picture here instead of referring to my now defunct classified, but the forum software will not allow me to put the picture in this thread if it exists in another one)

I have done the same with the one glasstone that I have, too, and any natural stones that I have that are small. I don't like when stones move in use, especially not once they dry some, which is a nice way to really polish an edge. I got the sense when I first got the shaptons that they could fly off those plastic cases they come in and I doubt they'd survive a fall well.

If shapton wanted to add glass to something, they should've added it to the professional stones instead of slashing the abrasive to a third of what it was on the pro stones. I think they've really put themselves at a disadvantage with consumer's perceptions with that move - and perception from a non-sale is something you really can't quantify or measure. I'll bet that there are plenty of people who saw what Mike Brady describes, people scrubbing away at a very thin stone with a diamond hone, inferring that they would be spending money on something that didn't last long compared to other options. Reality may be otherwise with the finer stones, but perception rules when buying. That is, of course, only my opinion.