Smoothing with a jointer plane?

[Michael Titus]

If I purchase a high-end (LN or LV) jointer plane with an adjustable mouth, do I really need a smoothing plane also? I'm thinking that I could start with a coarser shaving to flatten a board, then adjust to a very thin shaving to finish it, without having to also use a jack plane and/or smoothing plane. Am I missing something?

[Joel Goodman]

Yes and no. It will be more work because a smoother will follow hills and valleys while the jointer will make the top dead flat -- more work. But that being said well known woodworker Alan Peters used a #7 for everything. Give it a try and see what works for you!

[Rick Erickson]

I guess it depends on how flat the board really is. You could get by but my guess is you won't stay that way very long.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Rick - you changed your avatar.........to a GATOR???. Living in Atlanta?

For shame, for shame :D


I'm a Big 10 guy, so I couldn't care less, but still............

[Tony Shea]

As stated above, the jointer plane will not follow the small humps and valleys to get a completely smooth surface. But it is no dought doable just will take some more work than a smaller plane. The idea is that after using the jointer to flatten the board, it is actually not completely flat. Just flat enough for your taste as it has just knocked down most of the high spots. Then you switch to a shorter plane to smooth out the surface, which works very well as these small valleys will all get smoothed due to the shorter length of the plane.

Like I said though, the jointer will work to smooth a surface. It will just take a little longer as you'll need to end up with a completely flat surface, which is actually going to produce better results. But the difference is almost negligable as it's not really visible by the naked eye.

[Pam Niedermayer]

If I purchase a high-end (LN or LV) jointer plane with an adjustable mouth, do I really need a smoothing plane also? I'm thinking that I could start with a coarser shaving to flatten a board, then adjust to a very thin shaving to finish it, without having to also use a jack plane and/or smoothing plane. Am I missing something?

A jointer is a pretty big plane to hoist around for every task, but it can be done. When I first bought the LN LA Jack I used it for most everything, replacing it with multiple more specific planes over a year or so. Of course, I've moved on to almost all wooden planes, most of them Japanese; but I still have that LN LA Jack, probably for sentimental reasons, it was the first metal plane that worked for me.

Pam

[Tri Hoang]

It's doable as others have said. I'm willing to bet that after a few jobs, you'll long for a true smoother. My rule #1 for hand work is to avoid unneccesary work. With a #7, you'll be doing lots of unneccessary work while smoothing.

[bob cohen]

I am by no means an expert--rather just someone else thinking about what planes are easier to do without than others--but was under the impression that smoothers are designed to cut at a higher angle than jack or jointer planes, and thus better able to smooth (deal with) difficult grains. Am I wrong about this?

[bob cohen]

I just checked the LN site and all of their bench planes cut at 45 degrees. I have their low angle jack plane (which they list as a block plane) and its cutting angle is 37 degrees, hence my confusion, and desire to have a smoothing planes--the low angle jack is prone to tear out in difficult woods.

[Rick Erickson]

Rick - you changed your avatar.........to a GATOR???. Living in Atlanta?
For shame, for shame :D


Ha! Raised in Florida and went to school at UF. I do get some grief working with all those Bulldogs. The Georgia Tech guys keep quite.

Michael - if funds are a factor I would suggest buying a LN or LV smoother and go with an older Stanley jointer plane.

[Doug Shepard]

The issue of blade camber comes into play. You'd usually not want any on the jointer but probably would want some on a dedicated smoother to avoid any planing ridges. Otherwise go fer it or maybe just follow up with a card scraper.

[Matt Benton]

Angle of attack is not an issue with a BU plane.

I now have 3 blades for my LN LA jack. One is a toothed blade to remove stock quickly, one has no camber to joint edges (the jack isn't really long enough to work as a jointer, but it'll have to do for now), and one with a light camber for smoothing.

[George Clark]

bob,

The low angle jack is the go to plane for many in difficult wood. It cuts at 12 degrees plus the sharpening angle of the blade. 25 degree blade = 37 degree cutting angle. Put a 50 degree micro bevel on the blade and you have a 62 degree cutting angle. It is a very versatile plane.

George

[Matt Benton]

But to your original question, I think that a you should be able to get as smooth a finish with an adjustable mouth BU jack or jointer as you can with a smoother, but it would take alot more work, as the low spots on the board will be planed by a short plan sooner than a long one.

[Russell Sansom]

For many years I used nothing but a bedrock #8 and a couple scrapers. Eventually I acquired a couple foreplanes simply to save sharpening the perfect iron on the #8.
Perhaps it's a matter of taste, but I've always worked with a slight camber on my big irons. I could never get them to work it they were perfectly straight across.

[Casey Gooding]

Rick - you changed your avatar.........to a GATOR???.

Being a South Carolina grad and living in Tallahassee while my wife gets her second degree from Florida State, there's not much in our house that's disliked more than a Gator :D

Micheal, if you want to go the single plane route, why not consider something a bit more middle of the road, like a 5 1/2?? Guys like Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth use them for just about everything. It's a good length and width to do everything pretty well. It will also be more kind to your body during long planing sessions than a 7 or 8. They can get heavy pretty quickly.

[Derek Cohen]

Good luck to you if you manage to do everything with a jointer plane! It can be done ... but why on earth would you want to. Are you a masochist?! :)

I did this one time ... built a sofa table using just the Veritas BU Jointer. However I was also reviewing it at the time and wust have been in an Alan Peters' state of mind ...

Edge jointing ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Jointe r_html_44c0c39.jpg

Panel smoothing ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Jointe r_html_3020e69b.jpg

Tapering legs ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Jointe r_html_m5752045a.jpg

Skewing madly to shorten the length so as to smooth boards ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Jointe r_html_m4f9dcd2a.jpg

End result ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Jointe r_html_2b4ae8b9.jpg

Review: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Jointe r.html

Now the thing is, Alan Peters did not really build his furniture using a #7 Record Jointer. He did have other handplanes, and he had a LOT of machinery, which he used.

David Charlesworth may use a Stanley #5 1/2 as a "super smoother", but he first prepares his boards on machines. In other words, he starts with flat(ish) boards. His long plane will not remove much of the thickness as he smooths them.

It is really not efficient to smooth with a jointer, especially if the boards begin life in a rough sawn state.

Keep in mind that generally one prepares a variety of planes for different tasks. The cambers on a jointer, a jack and a smoother generally all differ and are not interchangeable.

When starting out it always seems desirable to buy one plane that can do several tasks. However, as you add more planes to the arsenal, you end up dedicating a plane to each task.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Paul Murphy]

If I purchase a high-end (LN or LV) jointer plane with an adjustable mouth, do I really need a smoothing plane also? I'm thinking that I could start with a coarser shaving to flatten a board, then adjust to a very thin shaving to finish it, without having to also use a jack plane and/or smoothing plane. Am I missing something?

I'm just making an observation here, not saying what can or cannot be done.

I have a very large 16" jointer that is over 8' long. It will joint a full width 4' long panel flat enough that vacuum makes it very difficult to lift the panel up from the outfeed table. Now, walk that same very flat panel over to my workbench (which isn't as flat), and clamp it between bench dogs.
On my workbench I notice the panel slightly out of flat due to a combination of distortion from clamping force, small debris, and the influence of my imperfect workbench surface.

If I try to smooth that "flat" panel with the jointer plane I will not get a full length or width shaving, because the jointer plane is doing what it is supposed to do...eleminate the high spots. If I smooth with a smoother, the small panel distortions are ignored, and I can work the panel quickly without trying to flatten the various temporary distortions.

In the end, if you have a choice between a "perfectly" flat and nearly smooth surface or a "perfectly" smooth and nearly flat surface, your eye will very likely prefer the "perfectly" smooth and nearly flat surface.

I really need to get the jointer plane and flatten my workbench again...but only for those rare times that I actually face joint a board by hand. The rest of the time it really doesn't seem to matter. ;)

I wonder if other woodworkers have the same experience?

[Roy Wall]

I'm just making an observation here, not saying what can or cannot be done.

I have a very large 16" jointer that is over 8' long. It will joint a full width 4' long panel flat enough that vacuum makes it very difficult to lift the panel up from the outfeed table. Now, walk that same very flat panel over to my workbench (which isn't as flat), and clamp it between bench dogs.
On my workbench I notice the panel slightly out of flat due to a combination of distortion from clamping force, small debris, and the influence of my imperfect workbench surface.

If I try to smooth that "flat" panel with the jointer plane I will not get a full length or width shaving, because the jointer plane is doing what it is supposed to do...eleminate the high spots. If I smooth with a smoother, the small panel distortions are ignored, and I can work the panel quickly without trying to flatten the various temporary distortions.

In the end, if you have a choice between a "perfectly" flat and nearly smooth surface or a "perfectly" smooth and nearly flat surface, your eye will very likely prefer the "perfectly" smooth and nearly flat surface.

I really need to get the jointer plane and flatten my workbench again...but only for those rare times that I actually face joint a board by hand. The rest of the time it really doesn't seem to matter. ;)

I wonder if other woodworkers have the same experience?

I think your observations are 'Spot On'.....well said!

[Jim Koepke]

Michael,

Welcome to the Creek.

One of the problems with using a #7 for a joiner and smoother is that you will not only have to sharpen the blade after joining, you will likely want to also adjust the frog forward.

A joiner is easier with a real sharp blade, but can get away with a bit more wear than one would want on a smoother.

Usually a joiner is set up to take a thicker shaving than one would set up a smoother.

jim

[Steve Dallas]

If I purchase a high-end (LN or LV) jointer plane with an adjustable mouth, do I really need a smoothing plane also? I'm thinking that I could start with a coarser shaving to flatten a board, then adjust to a very thin shaving to finish it, without having to also use a jack plane and/or smoothing plane. Am I missing something?

Yes, you can do this. You will be in good company:

Roger Holmes, Starting Out, Edge Jointing for the Beginner
Fine Woodworking Sep/Oct 1984

Excerpt Start:

Selecting a plane

Locked up in a London
warehouse is my collection of bench
planes—eight or nine different sizes, all in
working order. When I acquired them, I
was teaching myself to woodwork from
books and it didn't seem possible to get
by with fewer than a half-dozen bench
planes. I did my best with them, but the
results were mixed. When I went to England
to work with master craftsman Alan
Peters, I packed them all, eagerly expecting
Alan to reveal their secrets. The secret,
he told me, was to leave them in the box
and use a jointer plane.

I use a 22-in. long, -lb. Stanley-
Bailey #07 jointer for everything, from
flattening rough lumber to slicing a few
thousandths of an inch off the end grain
of a 2-in. wide drawer side. The plane is
at least 30 years old and cost me $35 used.

I like the jointer's size, weight and balance.
Its length and width make it ideal
for flattening boards and jointing long
edges. It rides over low spots while slicing
off the high until everything is flat. And
it's heavy enough to maintain solid contact
with the wood so most of the pushing
can be in the direction of the stroke.
Most important for me is the jointer's
balance. Held only by its handle, a jointer
remains nearly horizontal—there's about
as much weight behind the handle as in
front. Balance makes the plane easier to
control and less tiring to use.

Excerpt End.

Roger Holmes apprenticed under the late Alan Peters and is author of the book The Complete Woodworker's Companion. He has written several articles that have appeared in Fine Woodworking magazine.

[David Keller NC]

I just checked the LN site and all of their bench planes cut at 45 degrees. I have their low angle jack plane (which they list as a block plane) and its cutting angle is 37 degrees, hence my confusion, and desire to have a smoothing planes--the low angle jack is prone to tear out in difficult woods.

This isn't quite corect. Yes, L-N offers all of their bevel down bench planes with a 45 degree frog. But they also offer their #7, 4-1/2 and 5-1/2 with a 50 degree or 55 degree frog. The #4 is offered with a 50 degree frog in addition to the standard 45 degree.

On both a bevel-up and a bevel down plane, you can very easily raise the cutting angle to prevent tear-out, albiet at a cost of considerably increasing the force required to plane. On a bevel-up plane, you simply hone a micro-bevel across the front of the blade to increase the cutting angle. On a bevel-down plane, you simply hone a micro-bevel on the back of the blade to increase the cutting angle.

[Greg Wease]

I just checked the LN site and all of their bench planes cut at 45 degrees. I have their low angle jack plane (which they list as a block plane) and its cutting angle is 37 degrees, hence my confusion, and desire to have a smoothing planes--the low angle jack is prone to tear out in difficult woods.
The LN 62 has a 37 degree cutting angle if you sharpen the blade with a 25 degree bevel. I have a second blade for mine sharpened at 38 degrees for a 50 degree cutting angle. Try it--I think you will be surprised at the difference this simple change will make.

[Jim R Edwards]

I was using my Ohio Tool 26 inch jointer on some poplar today. When I was finished the surface was extremely smooth. no need to use a smoother

[Steve Dallas]

I was using my Ohio Tool 26 inch jointer on some poplar today. When I was finished the surface was extremely smooth. no need to use a smoother

More often than not mine leaves a fine surface too. So I just stop there. Seems reasonable enough to me.