Raised Panel Question

[Glenn Vaughn]

I am making cabinets for the kitchen and will be doing raised panel doors. The documentation for the rail and stile bits states that the joint needs to be strengthened. I want to use dowels (I have the DowelMax). The question is how do I get clean holes for the dowels - should I drill the holes before I route the profile? I am seeing a lot of tearout in the profile when I drill after routing. I think part of the problem lies in the wood - it is Coffeetree and is very hard .

[Lee Schierer]

I 'm not sure what your instructions are suggesting, bit most rail and stile cabinet doors are not reinforced with dowels. The coped section fits onto the stiles and is simply glued in place.

[David DeCristoforo]

As Lee said, cope and stick joints are typically not reinforced, at least not on cabinet doors. On larger doors, dowels or some form of deep M&T are used to strengthen the joints. But in any case, if you are so inclined, you can reinforce your joints with dowels. If you do, drill the dowel holes before you run the profiles.

[Paul Ryan]

The woodwhisperer has a nice video on setup and use of rail and style bits that you should check out. I think if you watch that and see how the rail and styles fit together you will understand why dowels are rarly used in this case. If the bits match well and you use good set up the joint is a tight fitting joint with a good amount of surface area for glue.

http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-29-raising-arizona/

[Troy Turner]

Could be one of those CYA things where someone complained, once, that their doors broke so the manufacturer now "suggests" reenforcing. Kinda like don't use your hair dryer in the shower label.

[Glenn Vaughn]

Thanks for the responses. I am new at this and probably pay too much attention to what I read when researching.

[Chip Lindley]

Glenn, when researching, look at many sources. You may get a very slanted view if you take verbatum the first piece you read. I value input from forums such as this, where hands-on experience usually brings to light the most tried-and-true methods for anything! Manufacturer recommendations may have the ulterior motive of sellling you more stuff.

I, as most here, do not rely on anything but a good-fitting joint and adequate yellow glue for cabinet door rail/stile joints. I've not had a failure yet! Same goes for glued-up panels; good fitting butt joints need only adequate glue, nothing else!

[Frank Drew]

I don't think it's at all a bad idea to reinforce a cope and stick joint that only has stub tenons (and those sitting in the panel grooves, not actual mortises.) A lot of the "extra" glue area in one of these joints (the coped portion) is, in effect, end grain to side grain, not the best of gluing interfaces. And don't forget that a raised panel will weigh a good bit more than the thin plywood panels common in commercial kitchen cabinets.

I modified a cope and stick router set so that I could incorporate loose tenons; IMO a good joint should have mechanical in addition to glue bond strength.

[Peter Quinn]

Dowels won't make them any weaker, and if done well it might make the basic ope and stick stronger. Always do all joinery on any door before shaping the profiles. Less tearout.

[Terry Hatfield]

I honestly could not imagine that a cope and sitck door would need reinforcement in the joint unless possibly the door were very large and the rails and stiles were very narrow. I've built a ton of doors with assorted rail and stile bits and never had a single failure.

Terry

[Rich Aldrich]

I think the others have answered your question, but I have another tip. Stain your raised panels before you assemble the doors. When it gets real dry like in the winter, things shrink and if you dont get the part stained that is in the groove, you will see an unstained line on your raised panels.

If you only plan to clearcoat the doors, I would still apply at least one coat of clear before you assemble the doors.

This takes longer, but the quality speaks for itself. My parents spent a lot of money on their hickory cabinets and you can see an unstained portion every winter on each door. It grinds me every time I see it.

[Paul Ryan]

I think the others have answered your question, but I have another tip. Stain your raised panels before you assemble the doors. When it gets real dry like in the winter, things shrink and if you dont get the part stained that is in the groove, you will see an unstained line on your raised panels.




This is good advice I learned this tip the hard way. I stain almost everything before assembly now.

[Karl Brogger]

When I screw up a door, or something blows out when its getting edged, I have to bang the corner of the door on the concrete quite hard to get the joint to come apart, and typically the glue is hanging on with the would splitting. I've never known any other way, but the joint gets pinned from the back with a couple of 5/8, 18ga pins.

[Neal Clayton]

I don't think it's at all a bad idea to reinforce a cope and stick joint that only has stub tenons (and those sitting in the panel grooves, not actual mortises.) A lot of the "extra" glue area in one of these joints (the coped portion) is, in effect, end grain to side grain, not the best of gluing interfaces. And don't forget that a raised panel will weigh a good bit more than the thin plywood panels common in commercial kitchen cabinets.

I modified a cope and stick router set so that I could incorporate loose tenons; IMO a good joint should have mechanical in addition to glue bond strength.

/agree

it's not that much effort to leave a tenon on the rails, and mortise 4 holes.

[Mike St.Amand]

Hi, I'm fairly inexperienced but want to learn. Some of you have suggested staining prior to assembly of the panel doors. Assuming the stain is allowed to dry thoroughly, will the application of stain to the glue surfaces affect the bonding strength. (Yellow glue)

Thanks in advance.

[Terry Hatfield]

Hi, I'm fairly inexperienced but want to learn. Some of you have suggested staining prior to assembly of the panel doors. Assuming the stain is allowed to dry thoroughly, will the application of stain to the glue surfaces affect the bonding strength. (Yellow glue)

Thanks in advance.

Glue on the surfaces to be glued is a BIG no no. That's the main reason that I am not in the stain first camp. Glue will not stick to stained surfaces. If you are going to stain first you must tape or cover the surfaces to be glued or be very careful not to stain them. It's fine to stain the raised panel as it won't be glued anyway as it should just float in the rabbits to allow for expansion and contraction.

t

[Brian Penning]

I make all my raised panel doors with my Dowelmax -it's so fast and easy. Doors always end up nice and square too.
The doors hold so solidly when dry-fitted that I can do the groove for the panels by passing the frame on the router table using a box slotting bit. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&cat=1,46168,46176&p=47818

[Paul Ryan]

Hi, I'm fairly inexperienced but want to learn. Some of you have suggested staining prior to assembly of the panel doors. Assuming the stain is allowed to dry thoroughly, will the application of stain to the glue surfaces affect the bonding strength. (Yellow glue)

Thanks in advance.


When doing raised panel doors you just have to keep the stain out of the surface of the style ends and the top and bottom of the rails. It really isn't that big of a deal on doors. The most important component to stained is the panel and that doesn't get glued anyway. I did a mission be last summer and that a little more tricky staining I did tape the tendons off. But occasionally I miss glue squeezed out in corners and hard to reach places. I use a glue that drys completely clear so if it is stained ahead of time it doesn't cause trouble. But if you dont stain 1st then the small glue smudge in the corner wont take stain and you will have to try and sand it out in the tight corner. I personally think the benefits out way the risks.

[Darrell Bade]

I only stain the panel first, glue together and then stain the rail and stile.

[Cameron Reddy]

I wanted to make longer tenons on my kitchen cabinet doors and I was hoping to be able to do it with a stub spindle on my new shaper. Unfortunately, no one makes a stub spindle for the PM2700. And perhaps it is just as well. Everyone here pretty much talked me out of the need. Still, if you want longer tenons, you can order Freeborn cutters with 1/2" tenons, and LRH makes some with 5/8" tenons http://www.lrhent.com/kmf7.htm.

Oh, and some cutter sets provide an "eased" edge that is supposed to allow stain to penetrate along the panel such that expansion doesn't expose unstained material. See the options for the LRH cutters. Freeborn doses the same.

Cameron Reddy

[Jay Jeffery]

I cut apart some birch cabinet doors from Ikea and was surprised at the quality of the construction. They had full tongue-and-groove jointery reinforced with 2 dowels at each joint.

[Joe Spear]

I had a spare door from our Cabico kitchen cabinets. (Somebody drilled the handle holes on the wrong end.) When I took it apart because I wanted to measure everything because I was copying the doors for a set of cabinets I was making, I found that the corners were reinforced with brads, maybe 18- gauge. That didn't actually seem necessary.