Jojoba v Camilia

[Jake Rothermel]

I don't really want to add another thread in the wax, oil, etc department BUT...

Currently, and after a bunch of research looking for the "best" rust-inhibitor out there, I just started using WD-40 rubbed on with a shop rag to keep rust at bay. So far, I've no real complaints about WD-40 keeping away rust (in fact, I'm amazed at how well it works in my little garage shop) but I've found some talk that something petroleum-based can have adverse reactions on wood and with certain finishes.

Thus I've started reading up on oils like Camilia (or Camillia?) and Jojoba. I've also read [please don't ask me where] that Camilia can also help in lubricating the bottoms of planes when in use. Some claim something similar for Jojoba, too. In searching vendors like TFWW, etc all I've come across is Camilia oil which leads me to believe that might be preferable. Still, I need to check with The Creekers as I don't believe you guys (and girls) have steered me wrong yet.

Question #1: Has anyone had adverse affects from something like Wd-40 on their work and in their finishes? If so, what kind and how bad would you say it was? Disastrous or not really a big deal?

Question #2: Of the oils mentioned above, which would people recommend most, Camilia or Jojoba? Is there any appreciable difference besides availability and/or price? Do these oils pull double-shift as plane lubricants and if so, do they work on metal-bodied as well as wooden ones?

Whew! Lots of questions (hope there's no minimum...!) and thanks to whoever has any input!!
jake

[Casey Gooding]

I have never had any problems with any type of oil. I've pretty much used all of them. They way I see it, you may put a very small amount of oil on the wood with the first swipe. That oil will only be on the wood for a few seconds and will be removed with the next pass of your plane. Any further lubrication can be done with wax. You shouldn't, after all, be drowning your tools in oil, just wiping them down.

[Tony Shea]

I agree that most any oil should be fine, including WD40. This is only true if the oil is used properly as stated above. Just apply the oil to surfaces with a rag and then use a dry rag to wipe all the oil back off. The surface should appear dry as if you took all the oil off but in reality there should a fine film left that is not visible but will help prevent moisture issues. The film is so small that you shouldn't have any being transfered to the wood as you pass it over the tool in question. If there is a tiny bit left on the wood most likely it will be sanded or scraped away anyway. But really there shouldn't be any transfer of the oil if used properly. I'm not a big fan of WD40 myself but should work fine. I hear that it has a tendency to dry out faster than most oils and when used on plastics or rubber it can cause these materials to crack over time. But I don't use the stuff so I don't have any experience of that. I tend to use waxes and gun oils such as Breakfree CLP or Hoppes.

[Rick Erickson]

I would be nervous about the frequent skin contact of wd-40. I wouldn't want to be gripping planes with wd-40 on them. Of course I don't know if Camellia oil is any better but it sure sounds healthier :).

[Jonathan McCullough]

It depends on the application, the tool, etc. I've been doing a lot of restoration lately and my general rule is to use white spirits / mineral spirits to displace water on steel or iron surfaces (sometimes with an abrasive suitable to the task), then a big soap-bar size piece of Gulf brand wax, which you can buff with a rag. If you're just getting a bit of sweat off of a plane, the abrasive could be a Scotch brite pad. If I'm fixing up a rusty little plane or bunch of plane parts, you can dunk them in a coffee can with that, then pull them out and hit them with compressed air. The theory is that the mineral spirits displace the water molecules in the micropores, and the rapid evaporation takes whatever moisture may be left. I've also been experimenting with actually melting the wax and rubbing the part down with a rag or sock. The melting point of paraffin (a relative of mineral oil by the way) is about 150 degrees F, so when you see the wax melt you know the part has just reached that temperature. It's a bit warm for comfort, about like a piece of metal left in the rear window of a car on a hot day. Gets hot, but cools rapidly. Anyway, the wax is self-leveling, in its liquid state it fills all the teeny little pores you can't reach otherwise, and prevents sap and moisture from lodging in there. It's something you should be putting on your planes as a matter of course. Give it a try.

[Sam Fan]

I would be nervous about the frequent skin contact of wd-40. I wouldn't want to be gripping planes with wd-40 on them. Of course I don't know if Camellia oil is any better but it sure sounds healthier :).

I believe camellia oil is used in hair and skin products in several Japanese products, so I wouldn't worry about harmful effects on the skin.

[Callan Campbell]

I've used 2 of the 3 you listed. I love Camilia oil over WD-40 if my hands are really all over a tool when using it. I use WD-40 to loosen rust up, free parts up and as a quick blast for some rust prevention. I tend to use the Camilia as my long term storage oil as well since it hangs around and doesn't seem to creep and puddle into a hardened mess in tight spaces like WD-40 does when I've taken things apart a few years later and inspected them for any hidden rust build-up.
WD-40 has discolored some of my steel items, and based on its solvent base, probably is harder on plastic and rubber items as noted by other posters. I think the solvent in it is "Stoddard Solvent" or something like that from what I read about WD-40 a few years ago.
Not as gentle on you as Camilia oil, which I believe is vegetable based, but I'm not giving up my WD-40 by any means in the meantime.
So, a vote for both of them, and for wax, and Boeing Spray products too.

[Tri Hoang]

I've read somewhere that light, natual oil are best. I'd throw canola oil as a possible candiate. Plentiful, inexpensive, readily available. Besides, if it's edible, I assume that it's quite safe on the skin.

I can't claim much in my dry dessert climate but that's what I use.

[Philip Duffy]

I use a gun product called Eezox. Fantastic lube and rust preventer. Hard to find but a friend who runs a gun repair shop keeps it in stock. Not $$ connected. Phil

[Ken Shepard]

WD-40 is more of a solvent and moisture displacing agent, not a lubricant or rust preventive. It is composed primarily of Stoddard solvent, and provides only limited protection against rust. I use Boeshield for things that may sit around for a while, but on tools used daily I just give them quick wipe with a soft rag sprinkled with a bit of light oil such as 3-in-1. Lie-Nielsen sells and recommends both Jojoba oil and Camellia oil, and I may give them a try some day.

Ken

[Dave Anderson NH]

For years I've used a 2 step process. On a clean tool I spray on a coat of Boeshield T-9 and remove all visible buildup before it turns cloudy. If you let it turn cloudy and "dry" it is miserable to buff off and leaves a surface which will prevent rust, but will also have a high coefficient of friction. I repeat this a second time. The next step is a spray coat of TopCote. Since this is a wax based product I DO let it cloud over and dry. Then if gets buffed and a second coat gets applied with the same process.

The whole process uses 2 products because the Boeshield is a great rust preventative, but does nothing to lubricate. The TopCote adds a minimal amount of additional rust protection, but is a fantastic sliding surface and wears pretty well too.

[John Coloccia]

re: lubrication for planes and saws

The oils are probably fine, but IMHO nothing beats parrafin wax. A couple of squiggles on the bottom of any plane will have you thinking NASA sharpened you irons.

[Dave Beauchesne]

I believe camellia oil is used in hair and skin products in several Japanese products, so I wouldn't worry about harmful effects on the skin.

Sam:

Our Japanese daughter in law, let out a squeal when looking at the bottle of Camellia oil on my workbench - she said ' I used that on my hair when I lived in Japan ' ( as hair conditioner ).

My vote for Camellia oil.

Another post mentions canola oil - we cook with it all the time, but it can get gummy after it oxidizes for a while, and can go rancid - interesting thought though.

Dave Beauchesne

[Jeff Willard]

WD-40 will evaporate. Something to keep in mind in high humidity areas, especially if your shop time is sporadic.

[Bob Metzger]

I use camilia for hand tools simply because Lie-Nielson suggests it on their
website. For big tools/machinery I've used Minwax floor wax for years and had zero problems with finishes or rust. I think it's Carnuba wax.

[Casey Gooding]

Minwax works well on plane soles. It's a blend of oils, solvents and beeswax. I tend to prefer paraffin on soles, though. I think it lasts a bit longer.

[David Keller NC]

Jake - Not sure if you're still reading this thread, but one of your questions wasn't directly addressed - re: oils/waxes and finishes for wood. Generally speaking, where this antecdote comes from is lubricating compounds that contain silicone and laquer. In particular, silicone compounds of various types and laquer are incompatible, and if the wood surface has silicone residue left on it, the laquer will "fish eye".

If you're using shellac, it would take a ridiculous amount of contamination to cause adhesion or puddling problems with silicone and other waxes - so much so that the contamination problem would be very obvious. Laquer is quite a bit fussier - just an imperceptible coating of a silicone based lubricant can cause real problems.

That's primarily why I don't use any "teflon" lubricants and/or automotive waxes in my shop.

One comment about Camilla oil, though - while perhaps a bit more earth-friendly than petroleum oils, it has one real irritating disadvantage - it will partially dry after a month or so to a sticky grunge that generally requires removal with a solvent. I do use it in my shop, as a plane in regular use won't really have the gunkiness problem, but for longer-term storage I use a thin 3 in 1 petroleum based oil because it won't dry - ever.

Regarding safety, any petroleum based lubricating oil sold to consumers is perfectly OK for skin contact - just because a compound's petroleum based doesn't make it unhealthy, nor are plant-derived compounds necessarily safe for direct contact. Solvents are a bit different, only in that they can remove skin oils and cause eczema if used frequently - the ones commonly available in a home center aren't toxic unless respirated (inhaled) in high concentrations.

[Steve Dallas]

I don't really want to add another thread in the wax, oil, etc department BUT...

Currently, and after a bunch of research looking for the "best" rust-inhibitor out there, I just started using WD-40 rubbed on with a shop rag to keep rust at bay. So far, I've no real complaints about WD-40 keeping away rust (in fact, I'm amazed at how well it works in my little garage shop) but I've found some talk that something petroleum-based can have adverse reactions on wood and with certain finishes.

Thus I've started reading up on oils like Camilia (or Camillia?) and Jojoba. I've also read [please don't ask me where] that Camilia can also help in lubricating the bottoms of planes when in use. Some claim something similar for Jojoba, too. In searching vendors like TFWW, etc all I've come across is Camilia oil which leads me to believe that might be preferable. Still, I need to check with The Creekers as I don't believe you guys (and girls) have steered me wrong yet.

Question #1: Has anyone had adverse affects from something like Wd-40 on their work and in their finishes? If so, what kind and how bad would you say it was? Disastrous or not really a big deal?

Question #2: Of the oils mentioned above, which would people recommend most, Camilia or Jojoba? Is there any appreciable difference besides availability and/or price? Do these oils pull double-shift as plane lubricants and if so, do they work on metal-bodied as well as wooden ones?

Whew! Lots of questions (hope there's no minimum...!) and thanks to whoever has any input!!
jake

Why worry about it? You're "amazed" by how well WD-40 works (it does work). Have you had problems with anything you've built? Sounds like to me you are trying to solve a problem you don't even have but read somewhere on the internet that you might.

[Brian Muecke]

i have a bottle of camilia and jotoba on my shelf. the camilla is a lower viscosity oil and is less messy for me to use. also, the solids in the jotoba oil precipitate out, i assume from the cold, requiring me to set the bottle in the sun for about 30 minutes to re-liquify the mixture.

i cant tell a performance difference between the two (i dont really use them that often) but for the reasons above would choose camilia oil.

[george wilson]

WD-40 is frequently stated by machinists to leave a dirty film that is very hard to remove if left long enough on a surface. I'd go with David Keller and recommend mineral oil. Starret's instrument oil is refined mineral oil.

[Tony Shea]

I'd still go with a gun oil as opposed to WD. Good old CLP works great for me as long as you wipe off the oil after appling only leaving an invisible film.

[Callan Campbell]

One comment about Camilla oil, though - while perhaps a bit more earth-friendly than petroleum oils, it has one real irritating disadvantage - it will partially dry after a month or so to a sticky grunge that generally requires removal with a solvent. I do use it in my shop, as a plane in regular use won't really have the gunkiness problem, but for longer-term storage I use a thin 3 in 1 petroleum .[/QUOTE]
Interesting David, I wonder if my basement shop keeps a "level" amount of humidity that prevents this from occuring for me[so far:rolleyes:]
I haven't seen this yet with my usage of Camilia oil, but I've got only 2 years experience with it at best. Maybe my shop is "too wet" for the drying out to happen that often.:eek:

[David Keller NC]

The "drying" isn't really drying - it's polymerization in the presence of oxygen. If you've not experienced, I'd guess that you've a different formulation, or you wipe the tools off frequently enough not to notice (which isn't a bad thing, of course - keeping all of the tools in use regularly!)

[Callan Campbell]

The "drying" isn't really drying - it's polymerization in the presence of oxygen. If you've not experienced, I'd guess that you've a different formulation, or you wipe the tools off frequently enough not to notice (which isn't a bad thing, of course - keeping all of the tools in use regularly!)
Well, now I have to keep an eye out for this, as I don't use any of them regularly enough to not worry about this at least a little bit. Thanks for clearing it up, I HAD seen the WD-40 go through that polymerization or something like it over time, just not with the Camilia oil, yet:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Or, I stay in my basement shop alot, polishing my tools and start talking to them ala Lord of the Rings,"my precious, my precious" , which isn't going to happen anyway.:D:D:D
I guess another "long term" storage oil choice is in my future

[David Keller NC]

Callan - I've a few L-N tools that didn't get used for a few months due to other projects, and the factory-installed oil did gunkify to a very sticky, tenacious sludge. However, that gunk still did an excellent job of preventing rust. I found that laquer thinner worked nearly instantly where mineral spirits was slow or entirely ineffective, so if this occurs in your shop, you might try the LT.

[Jake Rothermel]

Steve, you're right about my worrying about a problem I've yet to really have. In part, I fear contamination once I've started to buy really expensive tools that I do NOT want rusting (the antiques I buy and rehab I worry about less, maybe because they came to me rusty...?) but I wouldn't want my rust-paranoia interfering with the ACTUAL work or finish; which I'm fairly inexperienced with. Since I haven't had a problem with WD-40 yet, I don't think I'll be switching anytime soon. IF I ever do see gunk or find that it evaporates, etc, it seems like I might have to experiment with different materials as all of the lovely feedback still has me baffled somewhat. Philadelphia, PA is fairly dry in the winter and DARN humid in the summer; best of both worlds. Time will tell.
Thanks to all for the suggestions and help!

[Stanley Covington]

WD-40 was invented as a water-displacement product, not for long-term rust prevention.

Camelia oil is not used much in Japan except as a hair treatment or other girly purposes. I currently live in Japan, where camelia oil as a beauty aid is now back in fashion again. The shelves are filled with hair treatments and skin moisturizers for the ladies. The camelia oil sold commercially for woodworking is not even pure camelia oil, but mineral oil with a bit of camelia oil and scent. Smells nice, but offers limited protection and is way over-priced.

As the previous post mentioned, camelia oil gets sticky and gummy over time. It is not suited for long term protection.

But if you like how it performs, you can save some money and use straight mineral oil (which has the advantage of not hardening or getting gummy), or a mineral-oil based furniture polish like Olde English, which has a nice lemony smell.

In my experience, Boeshield is the best long-term rust preventative, on the condition that the metal it is applied to is dead dry beforehand. It can trap water in the metal pores otherwise.

The bullfrog products also seem to work well, but the smell can be a problem.

After sharpening with waterstones, there is always water in the metal pores you need to get rid of ASAP. I have found that Corrosion Block works well to displace the water and provide lubrication. Not good for long-term storage, though, because it evaporates over time.

2 cents.

Stan

[Shawn Albe]

...to George's suggestion, is the classic "3 in 1" oil (which David Keller suggested) the same thing as mineral oil?

[David Weaver]

WD-40 is frequently stated by machinists to leave a dirty film that is very hard to remove if left long enough on a surface. I'd go with David Keller and recommend mineral oil. Starret's instrument oil is refined mineral oil.

I'd go with light mineral oil, too. It's food safe, so you don't have to worry about toxicity, and it's really cheap - like $12 a gallon at a food service supply place.

For planes, i paste wax the cheeks and sole once every six months or so - with briwax, because it dries fast enough you can do it just about as fast as you can oil a plane sole.

For planes that I know will never lay over on their sides, I pad a very light coat of shellac on the sides and the inside of the casting, and the paraffin on the bottom seems to keep most of the scuzz away otherwise. The shellac can be taken off with alcohol any time you decide you no longer want it, without hurting anything else on the plane, but it is a whole lot longer lasting than wax or oil.

I think camelia oil is recommended for two reasons:
1) it works well
2) you can sell it for enough money to make it worth selling, and tool buyers can't just easily find it elsewhere - which can't be said for mineral oil

light oils are a very temporary rust protectant, though, and don't work as well as a coat of paste wax on parts that don't see sharpening stones (where paste wax would be quickly run off). Joinery planes and specialty planes that don't get used often may show up with rust if you only use camelia or jojoba and let them sit somewhere for months without checking them.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

...to George's suggestion, is the classic "3 in 1" oil (which David Keller suggested) the same thing as mineral oil?
3-in-One Oil is a brand name for a general purpose lubricating oil created more than 100 years ago. The name is based on the products ability to do three things: clean, lubricate and protect.

The product contains pale spindle oil (> 98%) with a small amount of corrosion inhibitor (<1%) and citronella oil (< 0.5%).

The material data safety sheet says that prolonged exposure can cause irritation...

Side note: The 3-in-1 is now a brand, so, you need to check for the specific product, not the brand name (including a no-rust-shield meant for tools).
Citronella oil is natural (from leaves and stems of Cymbopogon). The oil is used in soap, perfumes, and as a flavor extract. In other words, it is pretty safe. I have no idea how it affects wood other than the fact that it has strong anti-fungal properties. Oh yes, and people use it as an insect repellent (nice that it is used in perfumes and soap).

So 3-in-1 is mostly spindle oil, which is a series of light colored and low viscosity oils meant to lubricate high speed spindles, which makes sense, because 3-in-1 was developed for use with bicycles.

[David Weaver]

...to George's suggestion, is the classic "3 in 1" oil (which David Keller suggested) the same thing as mineral oil?

3 in 1 is a penetrating oil. Mineral oil is not. If penetrating oil gets on wood in any quantity, it's kind of a pain.

[David Keller NC]

So 3-in-1 is mostly spindle oil, which is a series of light colored and low viscosity oils meant to lubricate high speed spindles, which makes sense, because 3-in-1 was developed for use with bicycles.

This is one of the primary reasons I like it - it coats the tool well, but is of low enough viscosity and density not to form a really heavy film (extreme case: think cosmoline, which has roughly the viscosity of room-temperature butter).

Regarding wood contact, I'll simply note that all oils, regardless of their viscosity or hydrophobicity will penetrate wood. So one has a problem if a stray spill splatters on to your latest spice-box project (maybe a good reason to go with a linseed oil/wax finish!). However, I've never had an issue with a metal plane sole lubricated with any oil, including 3 & 1 and linseed, contaminating an unfinished wood surface to the degree that it caused any issues with a final finish.

There's one exception - oil/wax formulations that contain silicone or chloroflurocarbons (teflon) and final finishes that use laquer. That's one reason I avoid laquer.

[Shawn Albe]

972 pounds for $3.59
http://www.ronshomeandhardware.com/LB-HSEHLD-Paraffin-Wa-p/262113.htm?click=1014&source=googleps

[Tony Shea]

There is def something wrong with the above posts company description about that parrafin wax. It can't possibly weigh 972 pounds! Maybe that is not what is meant but is the impression I get by the post. Maybe has something to do with it's charactoristics I guess but the box is 3"x5"x2" and weighs 1.1lbs to ship. I'm curious to know what the 972LB designation means though.

[John Coloccia]

It's model #972. I suspect they meant to say "blah blah 972 1LB blah blah blah" because elsewhere they say it's 1lb.

Speaking of paraffin, don't use "liquid paraffin" or "paraffin oil". These either refer to mineral oil or kerosene, respectively. That so-called "lamp oil, 100% paraffin" nonsense you see on those ridiculously expensive bottles of lamp oil is properly "100% Kerosene" in North America. In other parts of the word "paraffin" is used instead of kerosene. We folks in North America call it "kerosene". They're trying to exploit the fact that we know paraffin is for candles, therefore "paraffin oil", is used for lamps, because no one in their right mines would pay those prices for kerosene. LOL. No relation to paraffin wax other than it's a petroleum product. It is true, though, that some of the high end "lamp oils" really are purified much more than just standard kerosene, and you will end up with a flame that has no smell and no soot.

[Joel Goodman]

+1 on gun oil. I've been using Hoppe's gun oil which says that it's good for lubricating metal parts and good for wooden gun stocks. Of course I only use a very thin film.

[Roger Bell]

I have two shops. My main one at my primary residence and another at my (wife's) second home at the coast.

Rust is not a big issue at my primary residence, so a variety of oils have done/will do.

At the coast, since I go there irregularly...rust is a big issue, since tools and machines sit idle for weeks at a time.

I do what Dave does. I put on several coats of Boeshield and buff off. That is fine for most surfaces, such as machine tables. But on plane bottoms and the bed of the lathe where I want some real slickness, I add TopCote atop the Boeshiled and that works well. I don't remember how I discovered this method.....probably not being satisfied with the Boeshield alone or with any other oil-only treatment.

[Matt Lau]

Thanks for all the tips.

I'd been using camelia oil (actually, more commonly olive oil from the kitchen). But I think that I'll use mineral oil from now on.

Jajoba oil is great stuff...for moisturizers, soaps, and shampoos. I only know because I'd recently gotten sidetracked with bar shampoo.

-Matt

[Andrew Pitonyak]

972 pounds for $3.59
http://www.ronshomeandhardware.com/LB-HSEHLD-Paraffin-Wa-p/262113.htm?click=1014&source=googleps

972 is the model number. This is one pound.