Shaper cutter bushings

[david brum]

Hi all

I am shopping for a shaper head with interchangeable cutters, either the
Amana or the CMT. I currently have a shaper which uses a 3/4" max spindle but I want to plan for the future if possible. I'm wondering if it is safe and acceptable to reduce from 1 1/4" to 3/4" with T bushings. These cutter bodies are aluminum and around 3 1/2" diameter.

[David DeCristoforo]

A 3.5" diameter cutter with a total cutter "thickness" of around 1.5" is "pushing the envelope" for a 3/4" spindle. Exercise extreme caution and use as much common sense as you can. Upgrade to a 1.25" spindle ASAP.

[Peter Quinn]

I've been pushing that envelope for years in exactly that way. I use the Amana profile pro version of the euro block (aluminum insert cutter head). Oh, did I mention BUY THE ALUMINUM VERSION for a small shaper. Its lighter and easier to spin. My 3HP delta has never had trouble pushing it.

I have two sets, both are 1 1/4" bore bushed down. It works decent, but you may experience a bit more chatter than you would like. I do. Not terrible, but not perfect either. I got a set of low gears from comatic for the feeder that lets me slow the feed rate to compensate. It works, but frankly if I had to do it over given the low cost of the cutter head, I'd buy the 3/4" bore head, use it, and when you move up to the bigger shaper get the 1 1/4" head in either steel or aluminum at that point. The knives will be the same for both. I think the heads are like $85 and are available separately.

So I have upgraded to an 1 1/4" spindle machine recently, and that chatter? Gone. The head fits so tight on the spindle on my minimax I have to "glide" it on or it stops dead. Very tight tolerances. I just got a bearing set with the aluminum sleeves, and those are very snug too. No more slop and no more chatter. Go figure?

Oh, one more thought. I love the basic format of these sets. They cut very well, and give you a lot of options for not much money. Cheaper than router bits really.

[David DeCristoforo]

"I've been pushing that envelope for years in exactly that way."

Haven't we all. As long as you use the caution and common sense I mentioned which I'm sure you do. But I had the unfortunate experience once of bending a spindle by running a "too big" cutter and taking a "too big" bite and I can tell you from here, it's one of the things that motivated me to always keep an extra pair of shorts in the shop (part of the first aid kit?)

[david brum]

A 3.5" diameter cutter with a total cutter "thickness" of around 1.5" is "pushing the envelope" for a 3/4" spindle. Exercise extreme caution and use as much common sense as you can. Upgrade to a 1.25" spindle ASAP.

Thanks for the advice David. That explains why the 3/4" head is 2 3/4" diameter. I am thinking that's the way to go. I understand that bigger cutters will produce a cleaner cut, but I want to stay within a comfortable safety zone.

[Jeff Monson]

So are you guys saying its a mistake to buy a 3/4" spindle shaper? If that is the max. dia the shaper will accept.

[David DeCristoforo]

"So are you guys saying its a mistake to buy a 3/4" spindle shaper? If that is the max. dia the shaper will accept."

I don't recall anyone saying either of those things...

[david brum]

I've been pushing that envelope for years in exactly that way. I use the Amana profile pro version of the euro block (aluminum insert cutter head). Oh, did I mention BUY THE ALUMINUM VERSION for a small shaper. Its lighter and easier to spin. My 3HP delta has never had trouble pushing it.

I have two sets, both are 1 1/4" bore bushed down. It works decent, but you may experience a bit more chatter than you would like. I do. Not terrible, but not perfect either. I got a set of low gears from comatic for the feeder that lets me slow the feed rate to compensate. It works, but frankly if I had to do it over given the low cost of the cutter head, I'd buy the 3/4" bore head, use it, and when you move up to the bigger shaper get the 1 1/4" head in either steel or aluminum at that point. The knives will be the same for both. I think the heads are like $85 and are available separately.


Advice taken Peter. Thank you for that. I'll go with the 3/4" cutter head. BTW, will your cutter head accept 50mm cutters as well as 40mm? Also, have you tried CMT inserts vs Amana inserts? They are supposed to be interchangeable.

[Jeff Monson]

"So are you guys saying its a mistake to buy a 3/4" spindle shaper? If that is the max. dia the shaper will accept."

I don't recall anyone saying either of those things...

Sorry David, should be more clear, I'm in the market for a shaper (1st one) should I stay away from a 3/4" max spindle machine? Or IYO is this as much machine I will need for cabinet doors and occasional profiling.

This is the one I am ordering
http://www.jetwilton.com/us/manufacturing/en/product.html?node=4536&product=761

[John A langley]

Jeff - If you could afford to, and you want to make raised panel doors, I would go with at least a 5 horse shaper and an inch and a quarter spindle. The 3 horse is okay for the cope and stile cut but you will have a hard time raising the panel with a 3 horse shaper. Especially if you are planning on using a 3/4" panel and back cutter.

[David DeCristoforo]

" I'm in the market for a shaper..."

3hp shapers with 3/4" spindles abound. There is nothing "wrong" with them other than the limits imposed by the power and spindle size. If you don't anticipate running larger cutters, you will most likely be very happy with the Jet. In my experience however, most guys end up feeling limited by machines in this class and wish for a more powerful machine with a larger spindle capacity. When this happened to me, I kept the 3hp machine and I still use if for 80% of my shaper work. My "bigger" shaper is in the form of a Felder KF700s Pro Saw/Shaper. I cannot imaging being limited to the 3/4" spindle but then I run a lot of large stuff which you may never need to do. Having said all of that, if I were you I would at least consider a 5hp machine with a 1 1/4" spindle. With very few exceptions, these machines will have interchangeable spindles offering you the option of running smaller (less expensive) cutters on a 3/4" spindle if you wish.

[Jeff Monson]

David, sorry didnt mean to hijack your thread

John and David thanks for the insight, I'm going to have to live with my decision for awhile as I ordered the shaper yesterday, 1395.00 delivered, I was happy until now :confused: (just kidding) and I really cant afford to spend any more.

[david brum]

David, sorry didnt mean to hijack your thread

John and David thanks for the insight, I'm going to have to live with my decision for awhile as I ordered the shaper yesterday, 1395.00 delivered, I was happy until now (just kidding) and I really cant afford to spend any more.


No worries Jeff, this is fascinating stuff. BTW, there is a 1" spindle available for the JWS-25cs shaper as an accessory. It seems a reasonable bet that it will fit yours also.

[Jeff Monson]

David is this the head you were considering?

http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5502-profile-pro-multi-shaper-starter-sets.aspx


At around 24$ per set, it makes them as reasonable as router bits.

I wonder how long the knives last being there is no carbide?

[Rod Sheridan]

David is this the head you were considering?

http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5502-profile-pro-multi-shaper-starter-sets.aspx


At around 24$ per set, it makes them as reasonable as router bits.

I wonder how long the knives last being there is no carbide?

Jeff, I couldn't access the link you provided, however the 40mm knives in my insert head are HSS.

The longest run I've used them for is 190 metres of wainscot.

In the home environment I find I'm making 10 metres of this, 20 metres of that, or when raising panels in 2 passes, perhaps 4 metres per door.

If you're using solid wood, HSS is a great way to go.

regards, Rod.

P.S. I doubt you have TC knives in your jointer or planer, I don't.

[Jeff Monson]

Jeff, I couldn't access the link you provided, however the 40mm knives in my insert head are HSS.

The longest run I've used them for is 190 metres of wainscot.

In the home environment I find I'm making 10 metres of this, 20 metres of that, or when raising panels in 2 passes, perhaps 4 metres per door.

If you're using solid wood, HSS is a great way to go.

regards, Rod.

P.S. I doubt you have TC knives in your jointer or planer, I don't.

Rod, how about this link?

http://www.amanatool.com/shaper/scs_1000.html

I know I read your comment not long ago, as to getting a head with index pins for proper insert alignment. This head appears to be a good choice?
Also these knives are listed as "steel knives" is this the same as HSS?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, HSS (High Speed Steel) is the same as the steel knives they mention.

P.S. Jet have a 30mm spindle available for that shaper, and Amana have a 30mm bore cutter head in 88mm diameter available. 30mm is a very standard spindle bore.

The Amana head however doesn't have any chip limiters, and I wouldn't recommend it for hand fed operation. (I know we've all done it, however there's a reason you cannot get a MAN rating on those heads).

Felder have a head with limiters (they call them "fenders"), you could look at their website to see them.

[Peter Quinn]

Advice taken Peter. Thank you for that. I'll go with the 3/4" cutter head. BTW, will your cutter head accept 50mm cutters as well as 40mm? Also, have you tried CMT inserts vs Amana inserts? They are supposed to be interchangeable.

I believe they are the same cutters (CMT and AMANA). I have found that many manufacturers are selling this same setup. All say "Made in SWISS. In England they are called "Euro-blocks" so I have read. I have seen at least 10 different manufacturers selling the same set up. Laguna, CMT, Felder, Amana, Dimar, Logosol, moldingknives.com, Wealden, and Whitehill among others. I have not used the 50MM sets yet, I know cheyenne sells the CMT brand of these. Amana does not. They only sell 50MM blanks. I have only used amana knives mostly because my local tooling place sells them and I get them quick, and they are all the same profiles (though CMT's graphics I find much easier to understand).

Keep in mind there are two types of 50MM knives, the 4MM thickness for the standard head, and the thicker 5.5MM blanks for a special head. I believe the 50MM CMT knives are the 4MM thickness and fit the standard 40MM head. The diameter of the cutter is irrelevant to the diameter of the spindle as far as I can tell regarding these euro block systems. The relevant factor is the total size of the cut, or the amount of material being removed (height X depth), and that is limited to 5/8" maximum depth by the thickness of the steel on these sets. A 3HP shaper should be able to push any of these profiles at a reasonable feed rate. I think the bushings introduce some slop which IME can be problematic for the joinery sets available. The door cutters can't be shimmed to compensate with these insert heads, and I have had to reset the knives and head a few times and test to get things to work in the past.

I have thrown some bigger knives in a corrugated back head (3/4" bore) than my machine could really push and it let me know it quick. The 5/16" and 3/8" steel on those knives lets you make a much deeper profile cut, but the shaper doesn't! I didn't bend a spindle (luck I'd guess?) but I nearly stalled the machine, and its not an experience I'd be quick to recreate. Do use caution as you proceed, use a slower feed rate on those larger cutters, and keep the off button real handy. Learn the upper limits and stay just behind them at least. I find raised panels no problem for my 3/4" shaper, and there I also use 1 1/4" cutters bushed down. Industrial tooling places will sell you anything you ask for, but they will never ask "Hey, do you know what the hell you are doing?" and they will rarely say "Hey, thats way too big a cutter for that little machine!" You will have to censor yourself.

Jeff, I feel the 3HP machine is a great asset. You must learn to work within its limits. This may mean making larger moldings in several smaller stages or even taking multiple small passes on larger cuts. Still beats the pants off of a router table. I was not in a position to afford a bigger shaper when I got started with shapers, nor the bigger tooling, and I'm not sorry I own the 3/4" machine. But if a 5HP multi spindle machine (3/4" and 1 1/4") were in the budget I would surely have gone that route. Now I have and intend to keep both. Cabinet doors have never been a problem on the smaller machine, 1 3/8" passage doors give it more of a workout but are possible, I ran a new 1 3/4" door set the other day and think that one may be better off on the bigger machine. I'll use the small shaper for the cope though for instance.

Wow, sorry so long.

[Jeff Monson]

Good post Peter, I've been in a decision dilema all day, I called back toolzone and they have my 3hp jet on hold, (luckily it hadnt shipped yet).

So now I'm faced with a choice, (I decided to break my piggy bank and opt for a 1 1/4" spindle machine).

1. Powermatic pm2700 3hp for 2650.00 delivered

2. Jet JWS-35X5 5hp for 2350.00 delivered

It has to be one of the 2 as the 5hp pm2700 is not available for quite awhile. These are the 2 in stock I have to choose from.

Opinions??

[David DeCristoforo]

"Opinions??"

With an inch and a quarter spindle, you're gonna want that 5HP. Brand preferences aside, it's a "no brainer".

[david brum]

VERY helpful post Peter. That answers a lot of questions. I'm off to do some shopping!

[Chip Lindley]

My ol' 5hp Powermatic 26 came with a solid 1" spindle. Bushing a 1-1/4" cutter to 1" is much safer than down to 3/4" (78% more spindle mass!) My 3hp Woodtek with 1" spindle, will swing a panel raiser just fine. I take two passes anyway, for a better finish.

If anyone opts for a 3/4" spindle shaper, regardless of horsepower, stick with 3/4" bore cutters. Especially panel raisers or those interchangeable sets such as CMT or Amana.

Talk about scary! Back in the day, I mounted a 3/4" bore Freud 2+2 panel raiser on a little craftsman 1/2" shaper. A bigger 1.5hp motor gave it the butt to raise nice panels, but I pushed my luck every time I turned it on!

[Peter Quinn]

Good post Peter, I've been in a decision dilema all day, I called back toolzone and they have my 3hp jet on hold, (luckily it hadnt shipped yet).

So now I'm faced with a choice, (I decided to break my piggy bank and opt for a 1 1/4" spindle machine).

1. Powermatic pm2700 3hp for 2650.00 delivered

2. Jet JWS-35X5 5hp for 2350.00 delivered

It has to be one of the 2 as the 5hp pm2700 is not available for quite awhile. These are the 2 in stock I have to choose from.

Opinions??

Jef, I looked pretty close at those two shapers myself last year before I stumbled on a used minimax I couldn't pass up. The only real problem with the jet is the fence. It is not, or was not then, a dual adjustable fence. Only the outfeed fence micro adjusts, and that can be irritating. Imagine a jointer where only the outfeed table is adjustable. Not quite the same, but similar. You can overcome the issue with a back fence for any depth critical cuts, but do you want to? Dual micro adjust is more versatile IME.

Otherwise, like most WMH tools the PM is slightly better than the Jet in most every way, but both seem like good tools. PM has that sweet mobile base, the digital height gauge, which you can add to a shaper, a great fence with dual dust ports, and one hell of a big table. Nice features. The jet is a more basic machine. Truth is I'd order the PM 5HP, (it comes with both spindles), and wait for it to arrive. That was my plan. At that price point I wouldn't want a 3HP machine, even if that will do you for a while. The 1 1/4" spindle can handle cutters the 3HP won't easily push. Of course you may never use cutters that large, but for a few hundred dollars difference it would be worth it to me to have the capacity.

Have you tried other vendors? I seem to recall toolsplus having a freee shipping thing recently, and they are a PM dealer. You won't do badly either way, but at those prices 5HP dual spindles is the best option for the long term IMO.