Why spend so much on new tools?

[Michael Arruda]

Hello all,

I fugred the headline would get some attention... my question is- why new hand tools?

I look at the new stuff on the market- Lie Nielsen, etc- and it's all pretty wonderful. I mean, I'd love to have some one day, but then I look at the prices... wow.

I was just wondering- why do so many people spend so much on the new tools that are basically copies of old tools? Wouldn't it be more cost effective to buy older planes and whatnot? Are the new tools really worth that much more from a usability standpoint? Now, keep in mind, this is an honest question- I've never used anything hand tools wise that's newer than, oh, about 50 years. I'm the kind of guy that buys a Stanley sweetheart plane at a yard sale for $5 and restores it. I do have a special interest in such things that some don't, to be sure, so I was just curious to get other's viewpoint.

Is it the "new and shiney is better" mentality, supply of vintage tools being outstriped by demand, or, as I asked previously, are the new tools really that much better? I know some of the steels are better for blades, but those can easily be put on an older tool. Why buy a LN #6 for $375 when you can buy a #3, #4, and #6 Stanley for less?

-Michael

[Pedro Reyes]

I love restoring Ebay finds, they feel more my own.

I believe (and I may be biased) that the difference in performance is negligible at best, certainly not on par with the difference in price...that is assuming you found a good Stanley out there... there is also something to be said about not having to take that risk as well as the "sure bet" factor of buying LN or LV...

That said, the only bench plane I own which is not a restored Stanley find is a LN 4-1/2. And I got it because I had to try it, I wanted to get the hi angle frog, and honestly finding a good 4-1/2 is not as easy as finding a good 'ol #4. Notice I said bench plane, I own a number of LN and Lee Valley block planes and specialty planes...and in some cases buying new is almost the same $ as buying on Ebay (e.g. #140, #62)

I have not used one of the old quality shoulder planes, but I must say I doubt they are any better than my LV Medium Shoulder plane, this is one place I can say, yes new is better IMHO.

/p

[Matt Radtke]

Warning: Gross generalizations may follow.

1) LN/LV blades are thicker and of a better quality than vintage irons

2) That's pretty much what a high-quality, modern tool costs to make and what the market will bear for such a tool

3) Not everyone likes to rehab old tools.

4) Two words: Customer Service.

5) Three more words. Warr. an. ty.

6) Manufactured to a higher tolerance than the originals.

7) Close enough in price to buying the original to make the the original not worth it. Ergo, I've noticed that a lowly user-grade 62 is more than a new LN 62. Damn collectors.

[Matt Benton]

I get a couple of hours a week in the shop in a good week. I want to build furniture, not fix tools all day.

It is an investment in my time, not to mention everything Matt R. said...

[Dave Anderson NH]

Personally I work on the basis of perceived value. In some cases new is indeed improved, an example would be the LV rabbet and plow planes. They are worlds better in adjustability and performance than the old Stanleys, particularly for a furnituremaker as opposed to a carpenter. Paying the premium for these makes very good sense. In the case of something like a jointer plane, I went with a Stanley #7 about 80 years old and my g-g-g-grandfathers 28" Chapin by Union. Another situation would be some of the specialty planes like the scraping planes where a Stanley in any kind of usable condition is several times the price of the LV or L-N equivalent. To me it's all about whether or not new offers SIGNIFICANT advantages(including price) over the old. I try very hard not to be hidebound by either the new only or old only camp. Overall, it is a very personal decision and can often be based on whether you have more time or more money.

[David Keller NC]

Michael - Actually, there's a far, far easier explanation to your question than "what is it about a L-N (Lee Valley) that explains why someone would buy a shop full of them"? There are, of course, differences as noted in the above responses.

But that's not really the typical reason - it's just that many of realize that $300, or even $2000 for 7 or 8 of these planes just isn't that big of a deal. It is, after all, well below what the mahogany costs for a secretary, or what a good cabinet table saw costs, and many other aspects of the craft. And there are an awful lot of us for which pinching pennies (regardless of income) is an anathema.

[Mark Maleski]

why do so many people spend so much on the new tools that are basically copies of old tools? Wouldn't it be more cost effective to buy older planes?

Why do I have this strange feeling of deja vu?

[Michael Arruda]

Most arguments make sense to me. Some things that don't-

1-Warranty- if you need a warranty on a quality hand tool, you're either not buying a quality hand tool, or you use your planes as hammers. Power tools- different story; I can understand the necessity of having a warranty on newer tools, considering the build quality difference to the old ones.

2-Manufacturing tolerances- How close is close? 1/32 is still 1/32, no matter if that 1/32 is .000001" tighter in tollerance than an older tool. Woodworking fabrication doesn't need the tollerances necessary for metalworking. If you think it really does need it to turn out a quality product, I'd really suggest going to a good antique store and taking a look at quality- not mass produced- furniture of the last couple hundred years. Some of the stuff is far better than anything I've seen made today, custom shop or not. Seeing the items in a book is one thing- actually observing the jointery in person is something alltogether different.

3- Customer service- there again, if you have a quality product that you know how to tune and care for, you don't ever need to call the manufacturer.

Specialty tools make sense- they weren't made in vast numbers to begin with, and as such, are now going up in value on the collector's market. There's an equilibrium point, that we have reached, where a new, quality tool is cheaper than an old quality tool.

I can also understand the weekend warrior mentality- when woodworking is a hobby, you want to be woodworking, not tool refurbing.

I'm not trying to start a war or get anyone's goat; I was just looking for other perspectives that don't match my own so that I can get a better understanding of it all.

Thanks again to all the respondents-
Michael

[Mark Maleski]

it's just that many of realize that $300, or even $2000 for 7 or 8 of these planes just isn't that big of a deal.

I tried that argument once with my wife. Just once, though. :D

[Michael Arruda]

Mark- sorry, was this already discussed? I just noticed the used prices of new hand tools in the classifieds section and the dichotomy of pricing to quality intrigued me.

If this is one of those "dead horse" arguments, please, have a mod lock down the thread, as that wasn't my intention at all.

Thanks,
Michael

[Mark Maleski]

Manufacturing tolerances- How close is close? 1/32 is still 1/32, no matter if that 1/32 is .000001" tighter in tollerance than an older tool. Woodworking fabrication doesn't need the tollerances necessary for metalworking.

I have an old Stanly #3 that can smooth a surface every bit as well as my LN smoother. But if you sneeze, you gotta refettle the Stanley. I haven't used it since I got the LN last summer.

Point is, tolerances affect the stability of the tool, not just its maximum performance. And though I used to use the Stanley to great effect, I just got tired of the PITA factor.

[Mark Maleski]

If this is one of those "dead horse" arguments, please, have a mod lock down the thread, as that wasn't my intention at all.

Well, it's kinda like going to a Fender forum and asking "tele or strat?" (or since I'm a bass player - "P or J?"). But with the thread title, it'd be rather hard to complain about clicking on this and then objecting to the content - it does a pretty good job of warning about the topic. And there's never any end to these types of debates (and new readers wondering about the same thing).

[Tri Hoang]

It took a while to get used to the sticker shock of new, quality tools. I love using old Stanleys but I also enjoy the LN/LV stuffs. Old Stanleys in mint condition aren't cheap, especially of the more desirable types.

It's a personal decision and it's not simple to explain unless you handle one of those planes yourself. Besides, if you catch these tools just right by getting them slightly used for 20% or so off retail, you rarely lose any money when sellling them back.

[Tom Winship]

I notice that some of the craftsmen who write for FWW and other magazines use LN bench and block planes. They are also accomplished furniture builders. I am assuming their craft has progressed to the point where they can afford these upscale tools. Evidently they see some value to their quality? (Note that this was a question).

[Chris Friesen]

Most arguments make sense to me. Some things that don't-

1-Warranty- if you need a warranty on a quality hand tool, you're either not buying a quality hand tool, or you use your planes as hammers.

It's not the warranty, but the ability to return it if defective on purchase. I had to return a brand new Veritas bevel-up plane because the blade bed wasn't machined properly. I've also had to exchange brand new chisels because the blades were warped.

Personally I live in the Canadian prairies. There are almost no used tools available here and on Ebay either the sellers don't want to ship to Canada or the rates are crazy. I've got a young son and another on the way so time is shorter than money. Factor in the fact that there's a Lee Valley less than 10 minutes away and it starts to look awfully tempting to buy new and be done with it.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Customer service doesn't mean they are there in case something goes crap. If you ever dealt with LV or LN, their customer service isn't so much like battery of phone rep with head set waiting to take your call. They are there like friendly neighborhood shop, you can drop a question regarding what blade would be good for me or if they can recommend a specific tool for the kind of thing I'm trying to do, etc.

Just because there were problems with the products doesn't mean their quality is crap. There is no such thing as 100% fault free. On top of that, often times if there was a mistake in their shipment to you, they can and will send you replacement in a jiffy.

One of the most important aspect of their customer service is that they will work with you even if YOU mess it up. They can sell you just the parts you need or sometimes for nothing...or only shipping. It sucks when it happens, but it happens, but when you need something, they are there.

I think you are looking at customer service as damage control. With those guys, it's a lot more than that. They are there when YOU need to do your damage control or just little info.

[Peter Bell]

I notice that some of the craftsmen who write for FWW and other magazines use LN bench and block planes. They are also accomplished furniture builders. I am assuming their craft has progressed to the point where they can afford these upscale tools. Evidently they see some value to their quality? (Note that this was a question).

-----------------
With the power of subconscious marketing do not be led by what you see the craftsman have in their workshops or use in magazines. It has not been unheard of that a craftsman has a special tool in his hand for a picture shoot and leaves with a brown paper bag filled with lots of goodies that us mere mortals can only lust over.

Take the Anti Christ of Neanderthalism, Norm the Heretic. Surely, as a house carpenter, he does not believe all the goodies he has are really that necessary, just difficult to say no to when you find an unmarked truck at your door with some free give aways.

I believe it is a matter of individual choice. In all of us we have several personalities which change according to the weather, our enviroment, ie closeness to neighbours, our work environment, whether we are a tool snob, a collector, a fiddler or a genuine semi professional woodworker.

For me, woodworking is purely a hobby. Because I am nearing retirement age I have aquired over the years most of the furniture that I would ever need. My skill level is just average , so if something nice has to be in the house it is bought new or I may purchase an old collectible or antique and restore it which is within my ability. For the garden, and outside every thing it is fair game for me to build as I do not need to be so pedantic about fine tolerances.

Because of this I do not need the highly expensive tools on the market, Taking a Lie Neilsen plane outside the confines of a work shop would be sacrilege for me, whereby a retrofitted Stanley would be acceptable because I could refurbish it again and not lose any value.

Plus, I like to fiddle with old things in my spare time, if I find something old and of value I will most likely aquire it and refurbish it but the item must have a use for me, not just as a collector's piece.


Peter

[Richard Niemiec]

As to the original question, I think first because folks can afford it and choose to spend their money on tools rather than $500 taking the family to a major league baseball game, or more on seasons tickets to whatever, or buying computer gizmos and video gadgets (ever price a Wii or video games...).

As for me, your Stanley 4, 5, 6, 7 with a new Hock iron are 95++% of the premium new planes; I'll buy LN and LV specialty planes, simply because the price delta on some which are collectibles is such that it makes sense to buy new, such as bevel up smoothers, shoulder planes and the like, and that's where I spend my dollars.

Don't get me wrong, new is nice, but sometimes being a bit selective works too.

[James Taglienti]

For those of us who aren't as financially endowed as Mr. Keller, who likes to take every opportunity to sound like the Richest Man In The World, these older planes are a good way to get user tools on a budget. Many of them are good. I don't care how my #5 is milled. It's a hog. I care about the machining on my smaller joinery planes and smoothers. Thats it. As this argument wages on it gets more tiring. There will always be people who think the shiniest and most expensive ones are the best. I had 3 opportunities to buy a vintage Stanley #62 this past weekend, all 3 less than $200. These planes can be found.
If I find an urgent need for a plane and new is cheaper than old, I will buy it. Primarily the only planes that are cheaper new are specialty planes. Vintage planes that are rare are rare for a reason. Craftsmen didn't need them. To think that one can't live without a 10 1/4 or 85 is absurd.

[Eric Brown]

While I have many old tools and love cleaning them up and getting them to work well, there are times when new makes more sense. For instance, my LV LA Jack has three blades: low, high and toothed. They all fit and work as intended. Finding those same blades on a old Stanley might be difficult.
Another case for new: I have small hands and all my handsaws were custom fitted to me. I also got to choose the type of wood. Going old you are limited to the choice of take-it or leave-it. Another case for new is collecting value. A quality tool will go up in value and it is unlikely that any of the current makers will come close to matching the volume that Stanley produced in the early 1900's. They will always be rare compared to the old Stanleys. It's possible that with E-bay, etc. the total numbers of old tools that are available will go up and maybe even drive prices down (if the market gets saturated).
A case for old would be a Stanley 1201 brace. Just can't get that quality new anymore. Can't think of how it could be made new any better either. Brace bits are another example. Anybody know where to get new Cook or Ford auger bits?

Eric

[Alex Silva]

I can answer your question pretty easily since I have just put an order with LN for around 1000$ worth of BRAND NEW AND SHINY planes :)

I don't know a lot about hand planes.. indeed I would say close to nothing. But for safety, curiosity, love of the craft and many other reasons I want to start using hand planes. I know it won't be easy BUT it will help if I start right away with fine tuned planes.

Plus I can resell LN planes anytime and not lose a lot of money

Plus I don't have time to lose in restoring old planes since I prefer to build furnitures

Plus I always buy the best tools I can afford : I have thousands of dollars invested in Festool tools, a Hammer planer/jointer, a Laguna bandsaw, etc... But you know what ? If I sell these tools in 10 years, I'm sure I won't lose that much in the process.

But I have a lot of respect for people restoring old hand planes ! it's just that I don't have the time for it and I don't know how to do it !

Cheers

Alex ... a new LN follower ...

[James Owen]

Hello all,

I fugred the headline would get some attention... my question is- why new hand tools?
I look at the new stuff on the market- Lie Nielsen, etc- and it's all pretty wonderful. I mean, I'd love to have some one day, but then I look at the prices... wow. ..... Why buy a LN #6 for $375 when you can buy a #3, #4, and #6 Stanley for less?

-Michael


For me the main reason is pretty simple: they plane a smooth, tear out-free surface where a vintage plane won't/can't. My bronze LN #4-1/2 with a 50 degree frog will sail right through highly-figured woods without even a hint of tear-out, that even my very well-tuned, LN-ironed/chip-breakered T-11 Stanley #4-1/2 leaves craters in..... (OK: the "craters" part is a bit of an exaggeration, but it makes the point....). They simply work better than most vintage planes in difficult woods.

Customer service also plays into this: every transaction I have had with both LN and LV has been entirely satisfactory: I can't say that for very many companies......

Another customer service example given here on SMC about 6 months ago (+/-), involved a poster who knocked his LN block plane off his bench, resulting in a bent wing. He called LN, told them what had happened, and asked how much it would cost to repair it. They told him to send it to them, as they needed to see the plane first. About a week or so later, he had an undamaged plane back in his hands; he wasn't sure whether the plane had been repaired or replaced. No charge -- not even for shipping. How can you beat that for customer service?

One other idea: in terms of hours worked to earn the money to buy, say, a LN #4 in iron ($300,--), you'll find that it takes the typical (wood)worker in 2010 considerably fewer hours worked to earn the money to buy that LN than it did for the typical (wood)worker to buy that lovely Stanley Sweetheart #4 (somewhere around $5,--) back in 1920.......

Just a few thoughts on the subject.....

YMMV.

[David Gendron]

Why spending money on tools, when you can make one that work just as good or better, for almost no $???(just throwing that in for fun!)

[Randy Klein]

why do so many people spend so much on the new tools that are basically copies of old tools? Wouldn't it be more cost effective to buy older planes and whatnot?

Cost is unique to each person and is not always about money. For some, buying a tool that involves minimal setup is worth the price of a new tool. For others, the opposite is true. And for others, somewhere between those two extremes is where they fall. There is no wrong position, just what works for you.

[Alex Silva]

Why do people buy new cars ???

Let me give your the RIGHT answer to this question :

'so some people will then be able to buy the used ones'

Now if nobody is buying new planes, new cars, new tools... where are you going to buy your used stuff ?

hehehehe

[Mike Henderson]

I own some LN and LV tools but my bench planes are older Stanley, Keen Kutter, and Vaughan and Bushnell. I just can't bring myself to spend the amount of money required for an LN #5 (for example) when my existing (older) planes work so well. In order to justify that cost, the LN would have to stand up, do a jig, and whistle a song, while planing the wood by itself.

Mike

[Michael Arruda]

Interestingly, $5 in 1920 has the buying power we have today of around $53. So, it was still considerably cheaper. the caveat, of course, is the average wage at the time- a union carpenter's wages was $1.25, equating to $10 a day for an 8 hour workday. So, that $5 plane would have cost half a day's wages. In 2004, the average carpenter's wage was about $17 an hour. Adjusted for inflation, that's equivalent to $19 today. Given an 8 hour workday, average pretax income is $152, adjusted for inflation. That $375 LN #4 is over 2 days worth of income, or about 5 times the adjusted buying power value of the original Stanley. For the Stanley to have cost the same, it would have had to have had a selling price of about $25.

All this is interpolation off of the statement that it was approximately $5 for a #4- I arbitrarily chose 1920 for a starting point. I could not find an actual cost for a #4- if anyone has an original catalog, I'd be greatly appreciative to know what the price actually was.

-Michael

[Bob Warfield]

I'm so new here I probably have no business replying to this post but here's my take on it. I'm refurbishing 4 old planes right now. All Stanley Baileys, #5, #4, #5 1/4 I think, and a 60 1/2. The #4 is done complete with a new Hock blade and iron. I can't tell you how many hours I have in it or how many $ were spent on sandpaper to fettle it. Now I'm working on the #5. Just this afternoon I was thinking to myself it might be cheaper to buy new rather than spend the money on the Hock components, sandpaper, and who knows how many hours of my time. But I'll tell you what, when I finished the #4 and made "curleys" with it the first time it sure brought a big smile to my face!
On the other hand I can sure see that not all would want to take the time to "supertune" a vintage tool.
Thanks,
Bob Warfield

[Jim Koepke]

Hello all,

I fugred the headline would get some attention... my question is- why new hand tools?

I look at the new stuff on the market- Lie Nielsen, etc- and it's all pretty wonderful. I mean, I'd love to have some one day, but then I look at the prices... wow.

I was just wondering- why do so many people spend so much on the new tools that are basically copies of old tools? Wouldn't it be more cost effective to buy older planes and whatnot? Are the new tools really worth that much more from a usability standpoint? Now, keep in mind, this is an honest question- I've never used anything hand tools wise that's newer than, oh, about 50 years. I'm the kind of guy that buys a Stanley sweetheart plane at a yard sale for $5 and restores it. I do have a special interest in such things that some don't, to be sure, so I was just curious to get other's viewpoint.

Is it the "new and shiney is better" mentality, supply of vintage tools being outstriped by demand, or, as I asked previously, are the new tools really that much better? I know some of the steels are better for blades, but those can easily be put on an older tool. Why buy a LN #6 for $375 when you can buy a #3, #4, and #6 Stanley for less?

-Michael

Why spend so much on new tools?

Because that is how much they cost.

If you have not seen my thread on Junker to Jointer, take a look:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=114373

That plane was cheap and only part needed was a blade replacement. The time it took to bring up to be as useable as a new LN or LV jointer would turn a lot of people sour on the job. Also, because it does not have the frog adjustment features of the LN, for some, it will never be as good.

For me, I do enjoy working metal. If my finances allow, I may start trying to acquire metal working equipment and doing some metal work.

I have bought new LN planes in the instances where an old Stanley would have cost more. In one case, a new LN #62 is likely preferred over an old Stanley #62. In another the LN was less expensive.

My next LN purchase may be because finding a useable Stanley may end up being an exercise in futility fraught with frustration. That would be for a 60-1/2 block plane. Finding a decent pre-WW II Stanley may be very difficult. Often the adjusters are damaged from misuse or the mouths are cracked or chipped.

I have a lot of old planes that work so well that there is no jealousy wasted or drool spent over the new LNs.



Interestingly, $5 in 1920 has the buying power we have today of around $53.

This is one of those statistics that do not always hold up well to scrutiny. Nor does it really have much to do with what we are considering. The Bedrock plane of 1920 now has an equivalent that is the Lie Nielsen plane.

How much did a Hershey bar cost in 1920? How much did it weigh?
How much does the same Hershey bar cost today? How much does it weigh?

How much did tickets cost to go to a New York Yankees game in 1920?
How much does it cost today?

Some things effectively may be cheaper today, like a 6 oz. Coca Cola was commonly a nickel. Today, one can often buy a 12 oz. Coca Cola for less than a dollar.

jim

[Zach England]

Because I am not married and don't have kids.

[Larry Fox]

For me it is as another poster mentioned, time.

[Ross Canant]

I guess I'm the odd ball. I'll take the old tool almost every time. I prefer the look, the feel, the history of the old tools. I also know that those old tools built all of that beautiful old furniture we all love. It's generally not the tool, it's the hands holding the tool that make the difference.

[Andrew Gibson]

I have to say that this past weekend was the first time I have had the pleasure of getting my hands on the offerings of LV at the local woodworking show and I was very impressed with the quality. To be honest the quality and craftsmanship are better then the old Stanly's I have come across.

My next plane purchase will be a LV BU jack, and then I will be able to have a truely educated opinion.

[Doug Mason]

James Taglienti
"For those of us who aren't as financially endowed as Mr. Keller, who likes to take every opportunity to sound like the Richest Man In The World, these older planes are a good way to get user tools on a budget."

Not sure how you arrived at the above conclusion?

In fact I agree with Mr Keller; the cost of wood for a single project can far exceed the cost of a LN; and if you amortize the cost over, say 5 years, the cost becomes irrelevant; I've invested well over $2K in LN tools and consider it a very good investment. But then I have a cheap Grizzly table saw that I picked up on a dime................

But of course, in the big picture, this is really a pointless argument--we all have different values/incomes/situations......yet it is entertaining to read other peoples opinions. That's why I am here.

[David Gendron]

Here where I live there is nobody working as a carpenter for less than $25/hour. And usualy a 10 hours day, that is $250/day, and if you are self employed, it meens that your tools are a tax writeoff! Of cours if you are a hobbyist, that is totaly different!!

[Rick Markham]

Everybody likes a different flavor of Kool aid :D. I personally in the future look forward to refurbing some older planes, maybe trying my hand at building a infill one day. Right now, I neither have the time (too many projects at hand) nor a wife and kids to spend my money for me :p.

I too drank the LN Kool aid recently and love the fact that I get a fine piece of American craftsmanship from a company that treats their customers with respect and cares about their products. For instance I recently ordered a 60 1/2 and a LN dowel plate. They shipped the 60 1/2 and quickly informed me that the dowel plate would be shipped as soon as they had some new ones, they informed me that they were fixing a "quality control issue" which made me happy. I will do business with a company that is quality control minded any day, even for something as simple as a dowel plate. Everyone there has been exceptionally helpful and to me that is very rare.

We all have our tastes and preferences. Appreciation is in the eye of the beholder... Take a Marcou plane ($2000 smoother) the man is a craftsman, and produces an amazing piece of functional art, though it's effectiveness is probably not proportional to it's price tag, I would still love one (fat chance I will ever be able to afford one)

For me the local places that have any antique planes know what they have, and seem to think that even the most beat up Stanley bench plane should be priced for a collector to put on a shelf. One day I will try my hand at refurbing some planes. I don't know enough right now, I am learning how to use my new ones effectively. I totally see the self satisfaction of refurbing a piece of history that several craftsman have made their lively hood using, and making it a workhorse today. It's all how ya wanna look at things :cool:

[Don Dorn]

I'm on both sides of this coin. I have (with the help of a knowledeable friend), brought a #5, #6 & #7 to planes that give fantastic results. I'm proud of them beause I know it took the sweat equity and enjoy using them. That said - I sprung for some LNs in the last year. I find myself reaching for the #3 far more than I thought I would, then bought a 4 1/2 and two block planes. If finanical obligations were not met already, I would have never spent that kind of money.

Frankly, even though I don't exactly have buyers remorse, it does give me some pause to think about the money I have in them when it wasn't completely necessary. However, there is no doubt that they work flawlessly and the machining is fantastic. They will be that way as long as I use them and then my wife will eventully sell them for a great deal of what I paid so in reality, I'm renting them for a couple of decades for a very reasonable price.

I have to force myself to be done with planes now - I have what I actually need and anything else is repetative and irresponsible with the money that could be used towards some things my wife would like.

[James Taglienti]

I have a 1912 catalog here that lists the #4 at $2.20 and the 604 at 2.50.

[Alex Silva]

My wife said that when I'll die she ll put my planes up for sale here for 5 to 15$ each.... hehehe .... I never told her how much those new LN planes I'm waiting for cost each... BUT I'm not doing now an Excel spreadheet where the price I paid for each of my 'big' tools will be inscribed.

Cheers,

Alex

[Richard Niemiec]

It struck me also that it depends on what you call 'vintage' planes; I've fettled dozens of planes, and the majority were bought and sat on someone's shelf for most of their life, never really used for serious stock preparation or final smoothing (in the case of a #4 or #4 1/2), and about 1/3 of the time you find a plane that has been heavily used, has most of the iron used up, is pretty beat up, but requires little or no work other than clean up and they work very well.

The clear implication is that in such cases a craftsman did use the tool, fettled and tuned it, and these tools are the real keepers. While there are exceptions to the rule, for example, the T17, 18 and 19s can be fettled to perform just fine, I believe this is why folk tend to prefer T11s and older, as the fella that made a living with them paid attention to them from the get go.

[Richard Magbanua]

I cannot remember the exact words of even who these words are attributed to, so forgive me. But someone said, "What I make is for other people. HOW I make it is for me."

When someone in today's world is making furniture with hand tools it is most likely because of a personal preference whether is is because of nostalgia, a desire to master different and relatively rare skills or to enjoy a more peaceful experience in the workshop. For me, it is probably all of those on different levels. I do very much enjoy looking for old tools and fixing them up. I have many old tools that I use as a result of many hours of wandering in antique shops, not to mention the hours researching how to rehab them and get them working again.

I also enjoy new, high quality tools like those mentioned in this thread. A lot. To get them, I've spent many hours working extra projects or otherwise saving money. As I use these tools, I have absolutely no regrets. Zero, nada. Worth every penny.

Personally, if you really appreciate the time and effort it takes to rehab an old tool and maintain it, you should have an even greater appreciation for the cost of new tools from LN, LV, etc.

Think about it. If you see a hand made, high-quality end-table for sale for, say $300, do you think, "solid price for such craftsmanship. Well-built. Great design and proportion."

Or do you think, "Hmmm, why would anyone pay that much for an end table!?!?".

I know, woodworkers usually prefer the idea of making their own furniture. But the point is, I think many craftspeople have an under appreciation for the value of good work.

[Chuck Saunders]

I have a 1912 catalog here that lists the #4 at $2.20 and the 604 at 2.50.
Get the 604, it is easily worth the extra 30 cents:D

[David Keller NC]

For those of us who aren't as financially endowed as Mr. Keller, who likes to take every opportunity to sound like the Richest Man In The World, these older planes are a good way to get user tools on a budget. Many of them are good. I don't care how my #5 is milled. It's a hog. I care about the machining on my smaller joinery planes and smoothers. Thats it. As this argument wages on it gets more tiring. There will always be people who think the shiniest and most expensive ones are the best. I had 3 opportunities to buy a vintage Stanley #62 this past weekend, all 3 less than $200. These planes can be found.
If I find an urgent need for a plane and new is cheaper than old, I will buy it. Primarily the only planes that are cheaper new are specialty planes. Vintage planes that are rare are rare for a reason. Craftsmen didn't need them. To think that one can't live without a 10 1/4 or 85 is absurd.

James - You'll just have to believe me on this one, but I'm definitely not rich by most people's measures, and don't intend to sound like it, either. My point is that there are a heck of a lot of us that despise "value hunting", and beyond a certain point, it really isn't about income. Generally speaking, I won't spend much time at all hunting down whatever the best deal is for whatever it is that I'm trying to do.

It's not exactly woodworking, but re-waterproofing my deck last week was a good example. I purchased the Home Depot (Behr) brand of deck stain/sealer without looking to see if Lowes (or Sherwin Williams) had something less expensive, because comparison shopping is, to me, and annoying waste of time. There are many of us like that, and I didn't do it in grad school when I was a pauper by anyone's standards.

But there are plenty of folks for which getting the best deal is a goal worth pursuing, and to which they will put much of their time. But it's far from universal.

[Nathan Callender]

I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but why is everyone pitting LN/LV against old used planes? There are other, more affordable new options as well that, while maybe not as perfect, will get the job done.... or is that a heretical comment? :-) And then, there's the whole other world of building wooden planes.

There are many ways to set up shop - frankly, it's personal preference and I'm happy so many people do it so differently. Life would be boring otherwise.

[Doug Shepard]

For me it has to do a lot with shop time. I continually struggle to find enough and what I do have, I'd rather spend working wood than working an old plane. I've brought a couple of old ones up to usable condition but they dont hold a candle to the LNs or LVs in terms of backlash in the adjustment mechanisms. Seems like I always have to ride the adjuster to just try and maintain the same cut setting. Dont have that problem with the LN/LV crew. Then there's the thicker blades and generally tighter (or adjustable) mouths that just plain work better. That's my $0.02.

[Dave Cottrell]

Sometimes the new tool is cheaper than the old tool. I was waiting for some Stanley chisel planes to near auction end. As the bids approached 70% of a new LN version, I bailed on the auction and went to Woodcraft and bought a new one. No shipping, Delaware has no sales tax. The Stanleys went for twice the price of a new LN.

Granted, this was for a tool no longer made (except for the LN version) and not for something that was common when it was made. However, it was perfect for what I needed it for, and I can see many uses for it in the future.

[Peter Gromowsky]

I have been reading this debate over which is better a $300 Lee Nielsen or a $5 Stanley brought back to life and it got me to thinking about what James Krenov taught. Woodworking is not about the end product, it is about the journey to get there. The decision on what tool to use on that journey is a lot like a family vacation to Florida.

One family decides to take the more expensive route and fly. This family is going to get a few extra days on the beach and they can sit back and relax and let others do the work for them. The only trouble with this route is that you have to wait an hour to get through security and by the time you get there, you find that your luggage has taken a detour through Pittsburgh. Not wanting to waste time waiting at the airport, you head out to the beach.

The second family decides to take the less expensive route and take the bus. This family is going to get an extra day at the beach, and they too get to sit back and relax and let others get them to their destination. The problem with this route is that on one side of you is a young family whose baby is teething and screaming the whole trip down. On the other side of you is the bathroom, and after a while you really begin to wonder what your fellow passengers have been eating and if they are alright.

The third family decides to drive down themselves. The trip down might be cheaper than the other two routes, but you have to deal with kids fighting and asking every ten minutes, “Are we there yet?” You also have to deal with two days of truck stop food, rest areas that haven’t seen a cleaning crew in years, and that giant pothole on the highway that decided it was time for you to get new tires.

Ultimately we all get there. The first family gets an extra couple of days to sit at the beach and soak up the sun, and the joy of watching dad run up and down the beach with his belly hanging over the top of those Speedos he bought at the souvenir shop with the cartoon drawing of Florida on the backside. The second family gets an extra day at the beach as well, and the hours laughing about whether that smell is just their imagination or if it is possible that others can smell them as well. The third family only gets a couple days at the beach, but they will always carry with them the joy of seeing the smile on their kids face as they ran around the world’s largest ball of twine and hearing the screams of delight as they entered the building with the largest collection of reptiles in North America.

You see, we are all taking the same journey, each with their own joys and frustrations. In the end, however we will all be able to sit back and look upon what we have made with the same sense of pride in what we have ultimately accomplished.

One other thing, for those of you with all of the shiny electronic tools and the beautiful operating room style shops you had better hurry up, the train is leaving the station. As for me, I have the family truckster loaded up and am heading down the road. To all of you enjoy your trips and I will see you when I get there. Save a seat for me at the bar, we will have a few drinks and swap a lot of lies and bask in the glory of a well earned vacation.

[Zach England]

I have been reading this debate over which is better a $300 Lee Nielsen or a $5 Stanley brought back to life and it got me to thinking about what James Krenov taught. Woodworking is not about the end product, it is about the journey to get there. The decision on what tool to use on that journey is a lot like a family vacation to Florida.


Please tell me where one can acquire a $5 Stanley.

[Peter Gromowsky]

"Brought back to life" is the key part of that sentence. In fact, the first plane I ever got was a #4 in decent condition that my wife found at a garage sale for under $5.00.

[Joe Cunningham]

Sometimes the new tool is cheaper than the old tool. I was waiting for some Stanley chisel planes to near auction end. As the bids approached 70% of a new LN version, I bailed on the auction and went to Woodcraft and bought a new one. No shipping, Delaware has no sales tax. The Stanleys went for twice the price of a new LN.

Most of new tools fall into this category. My LN scrub plane for instance was about 115% the cost of a vintage one. Why pay for a vintage tool, when I can get a new one for barely any more money.

I bought a few saws before I knew much, and they perform like the garbage they are. All the sharpening in the world isn't going to help them, and I like woodworking more than tool fettling, so bought some new saws.

But all my bench planes save 2 are vintage. They didn't take much to get into usable shape, and the 2 I got were like the scrub plane--so close in $$$ to vintage, that it didn't make sense to get a vintage one.

I do wonder why Neanders complain about cost though. Have you seen the price of a decent table saw? I outfitted my whole shop for less than the cost of 1 'necessary' power tool.

My cordless jointers and thickness planers don't have a width restriction either. It takes me longer to get furniture out the door, but I am not doing this for a living (if I were, I'd get every power tool I could afford).

[Joe Cunningham]

Please tell me where one can acquire a $5 Stanley.
Yard sales, estate sales, tag sales, in your neighbor's basement. I've seen a few near that price (<$10), but they looked awful and I frankly didn't want to put the time into restoring them, so I ponied up for some decent users at ~$40. The time to fix them up was not worth the ~$30 difference.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank Patrick Leach for disparaging the #6 so much no one wants one. Cheap users. I got my two for $20 each off that auction site. Until I purchased a new LV jointer, they served as a fore plane and jointer respectively.

[Steve Dallas]

"Not about the end product..."

Did he really say that? If so, I suppose one has to put that into context and reconcile it with the pretty fair amount of end product he did produce. Otherwise, it's easy to justify dinking around with tools and never really doing much with them. That, I'm quite sure, would be total corruption of Krenov's philosophy.

[Tri Hoang]

Some kids will one day thank me for buying the LV/LN stuffs. Without customers like me, LN/LV may not survive & produce these products. I feel truly blessed to live in a period of resurgence of interest in traditional ww skills/tools. If the market for these tools are larger, perhaps they may not be as expensive.

I am a subcriber to the motto: buy quality, buy once. It's easier said than done when there are so many temptations out there.

[James Carmichael]

Eek, not this debate again!!!

Just search on "premium vs vintage" or similar, you'll find tons of long threads on this exact issue.

It's pretty much a time vs money question. You buy premium like LN or Veritas if you want out of the box performance and can afford it. If you like restoring and fettling old tools, or have more time than money, go with vintage or less-expensive.

I chose door #3 and make my own Krenov-style woodies with Hock irons. In less time than I would spend restoring an old Stanley, I can make a woodie that outperforms the best of my old Bailey planes.

[Peter Gromowsky]

A Krenov style smoother is nothing more than a chunk of wood with a piece of metal sticking out of it, nothing more, nothing less. It is the story that that plane tells us that is important.

It is the story of the craftsman who put his life’s knowledge and experience into creating an instrument that when it touches a piece of wood it sings. This is true whether that craftsman is one of many in a modern factory in Maine or an individual tinkering over a broke down bench in a corner of a darkened basement workshop.

It is also the story it tells in the collection of wood put together in the shape of a box. It is the subtle ripples you feel in the wood but do not see. It is the gentle curve of the leg that your eyes follow returning the wood once again to the earth from which it came. It is the eyes and imagination of the woodworker who saw a form in the squared off pieces of boards sitting in the pile of wood at the lumberyard.

A plane is just a plane, whether it costs a week’s salary to buy, is dug out of a rusty bucket in an old garage or made out of a pile of scrap wood found beneath a bench. It is the story that it tells in the hands of the woodworker that is important, for what is a plane but an extension of the craftsman who created it and the woodworker who uses it to create beauty out of a rough piece of wood.

[Callan Campbell]

Because I am not married and don't have kids. we have a winner!!!!! Too Funny!:cool::p:cool:

[Randal Stevenson]

Looks pretty much like agreement, time verses money.

Your time to locate, both in shape and price, rehab, tune, etc. verses buying a plane that needs honing and adjustment.
I bought a new LN scrub, because of the prices (Ebay) used, and none locally. The total of all my other planes, would be about the price of one LN #7 otherwise (2-#4, 1-#5, 1-#6, 2-#7, and one #8). (not counting the three block planes as those I have less then $12 in)

[Glenda Marais]

I have some real vintage tools and some brand new LV's - I almost always grab the vintage ones when I work just because I enjoy working with them. and I enjoyed restoring them.
But I get just as big a kick when I take that scary sharp LV of the shelf and make the thinest of shavings with it.


But what it realy is all about is that I always thought that he with the most tools when he dies wins!!!:D

[Richard Niemiec]

Please tell me where one can acquire a $5 Stanley.

There's many ways, take your pick:

1. Spend every Saturday morning driving from one garage sale to another for about 6 weeks and you'll average one plane a month, in varying condition, and a lot of pure junk you can use for parts; or

2. Drive to two or three flea markets on Sunday morning and speed walk through them with your antenna tuned to spot the curvature of a tote or knob sticking out of boxes of junk; or

3. Spend 6 hours each at a half-dozen estate auctions (because they sell the furniture, etc. first before they get to the basement) and then get outbid more often than not and come home with nothing 5 out of 6 times; or

4. Put $5 bids on every plane posted on ebay, no matter what shape its in, and after you eat the shipping you find out what you got, and 75% of the time its junk, another 20% is parts quality and maybe 5% are usable.

I've done them all, at one time or another, over the last 15 years with varying success. Rust hunting ain't easy, more of a profound and deep seated sickness.

[James Taglienti]

Zach,
I find stanley planes of all types for less than $5. Sometimes for less than one dollar. Most of the planes I buy are between 10 and 30. But I go to flea markets and auctions religiously. I have that deep seated sickness.
Here are some planes that I have bought recently:

Stanley 289- $17.50
another #289 - $180.00 all correct
Stanley 604- $10
Stanley 603- $120
Stanley 605 - $50
flat full of block planes 9 1/2 x3, 60 1/2 x2 - 7.50
#79 side rabbet - $20
Stanley 112 - $60
Skewed infill rabbet plane - $12
and a lot more. If you have the time and energy, the rewards can be astonishing. Im thinking of offering some planes on the classifieds here

[Dan Sink]

Looks pretty much like agreement, time verses money.

You're right that time versus money seems to be the main thing, but for me as a beginner there is the additional intimidation of finding, buying and refurbing old planes when I'm already a bit overwhelmed with trying to learn the craft of working wood with hand tools. Adding in trying to learn the craft of refurb old handtools is just a bit too much. But I sure do respect those on the board that do it. And maybe in a few years I'll fill in my plane collection with planes I've refurbished, but for now I'm trying to concentrate on learning how to use the two new ones I bought.

[Zach England]

There's many ways, take your pick:

1. Spend every Saturday morning driving from one garage sale to another for about 6 weeks and you'll average one plane a month, in varying condition, and a lot of pure junk you can use for parts; or

2. Drive to two or three flea markets on Sunday morning and speed walk through them with your antenna tuned to spot the curvature of a tote or knob sticking out of boxes of junk; or

3. Spend 6 hours each at a half-dozen estate auctions (because they sell the furniture, etc. first before they get to the basement) and then get outbid more often than not and come home with nothing 5 out of 6 times; or

4. Put $5 bids on every plane posted on ebay, no matter what shape its in, and after you eat the shipping you find out what you got, and 75% of the time its junk, another 20% is parts quality and maybe 5% are usable.

I've done them all, at one time or another, over the last 15 years with varying success. Rust hunting ain't easy, more of a profound and deep seated sickness.


I think I'd rather be woodworking...or gardening...or watching football on the weekend. Yard sales freak me out--poking through someone else's old crap while they leer at you.

[Zach England]

we have a winner!!!!! Too Funny!:cool::p:cool:


Involuntary celibacy has its benefits.

[Zach England]

Zach,
I find stanley planes of all types for less than $5. Sometimes for less than one dollar. Most of the planes I buy are between 10 and 30. But I go to flea markets and auctions religiously. I have that deep seated sickness.
Here are some planes that I have bought recently:

Stanley 289- $17.50
another #289 - $180.00 all correct
Stanley 604- $10
Stanley 603- $120
Stanley 605 - $50
flat full of block planes 9 1/2 x3, 60 1/2 x2 - 7.50
#79 side rabbet - $20
Stanley 112 - $60
Skewed infill rabbet plane - $12
and a lot more. If you have the time and energy, the rewards can be astonishing. Im thinking of offering some planes on the classifieds here

That's an impressive list. I don't think I have ever seen a skewed infill rabbet plane.

[Randal Stevenson]

There's many ways, take your pick:

1. Spend every Saturday morning driving from one garage sale to another for about 6 weeks and you'll average one plane a month, in varying condition, and a lot of pure junk you can use for parts; or

2. Drive to two or three flea markets on Sunday morning and speed walk through them with your antenna tuned to spot the curvature of a tote or knob sticking out of boxes of junk; or

3. Spend 6 hours each at a half-dozen estate auctions (because they sell the furniture, etc. first before they get to the basement) and then get outbid more often than not and come home with nothing 5 out of 6 times; or

4. Put $5 bids on every plane posted on ebay, no matter what shape its in, and after you eat the shipping you find out what you got, and 75% of the time its junk, another 20% is parts quality and maybe 5% are usable.

I've done them all, at one time or another, over the last 15 years with varying success. Rust hunting ain't easy, more of a profound and deep seated sickness.

Richard, don't forget networking!

When I started looking, I told my mother and sister, both AVID garage salers. Mom found the first three at a sale for $25, and didn't know if they were "what I was looking for", so she called. I went out and picked up a #4, #5 and #7 for that, total.
Since, I have found part of the others, and they call me when they find one.

[Callan Campbell]

Everyone has posted great thoughts, interesting ideas. I'll add a few more.
First, not all the modern day " copies" as you call them are of the same design or quality as an old Stanley, or other tool manuf. Some are quite worse, and we've all suffered with one of those and regretted buying it.
But the best have taken good points of a Stanley or its time-period clone and removed the bad or weak portions of that tool, and added better things to the mix. Better/thicker irons, Ductile cast iron that is NOT as likely to chip or crack in the many places that an old cast iron plane shows with its age or usage. Updated iron/blade adjustment mechanisms, really unique nicker blade settings and adjustment allowances and additional thickness of main plane bodies where the "original" ones maybe show some weakness over time.
All of these allow a higher price than you'd like, but ARE worth the time that someone took to weed out the weak points of the old tools.
The fact that someone is currently around to work on any newly discovered weak point in the "new tool crop" is a plus, they currently make it, and are still here to fix it as well. You can't call up customer support on a tool that hasn't been made since WW2. You CAN "call" up here at SMC and get great "user" support though:D
Not everyone is a "fettler" or "tuner" of tools. Takes time and experience to get them right, and to know when to finally stop and just enjoy the tool, with what ever limitations a design might have lurking in it. Buying something sight unseen[basically] off the Internet is a scary experience if it's used and you're not really sure how much work the tool needs[pictures lie and mislead, even with the best of intentions]:rolleyes:
So, for the "short of time" and the faint-of-heart, new tools are much easier to turn to when it comes time to buying a tool.
Lastly, you see versions of new planes come out that were never offered by Stanley to begin with, or you're offered a Left AND Right handed version of a plane, particularly ones with Skewed blade set-ups that allow for grain in different directions and the use of either preferred hand position.

[John Coloccia]

Couple of reasons:

1) because quality tool makers will do a better job than I'll EVER do. Same reason I don't make my own screwdrivers and rasps.

2) Fixing a plane is not enjoyable to me, nor does it make me any money, advance my career or help my family. It's just additional work that I don't enjoy doing.

I also don't have a huge collection of planes. I have some block planes, some Ibex palm and finger plane, a small "model maker" plane, a jack plane, jointer, smoother.....some other miscelaneous ones too I think. They're mostly LN or Veritas. I have a couple of old wooden planes that I rehabbed, but probably won't anymore. Everything I have has a very specific purpose, and they all get used nearly every week. Ditto for my chisels, scrapers, files, rasps, etc. Everything I have gets used, and nothing sits around collecting dust. It's MUCH cheaper to outfit a shop with tools if you only buy what you actually use. If I just had to have every model of Stanley plane that ever existed, and multiple copies of some with blades bevelled to different angles, then buying at antique shops and rehabbing starts to make a lot more sense.

I'm going to guess that I have less into my collection of new planes that I actually use than a lot of folks have in their collection of a zillion planes that have been rehabbed, and sit on a shelf, untouched for years.

[Don C Peterson]

What I find most interesting (and a bit sad) about these conversations is the level of defensiveness that always manifests itself.

Why is it that some people always assume that snobbishness/gluttony/stupidity... plays a major factor in someone else's decision making?

Not everyone succumbs to this temptation, but enough do that in any given thread on the subject it ALWAYS rears its ugly head. I mean really, some of the comments directed at each other are completely unwarranted and they actually reveal much more about the commenter than who they are aimed at; and it's not flattering.

Different people with different priorities and circumstances can arrive at vastly different decisions and both be completely rational.

If you like rust hunting, fine, but recognize that not everyone does. If the quality modern tool makers offer a good value proposition for you, fine, but recognize that they may not for others. If someone does like to "collect" tools, so what? How on earth does that hurt you?

I buy both old and new (and don't intend to collect, but still do a bit of that because sometimes I just can't help myself...), but since I don't have the time or inclination to make rust hunting another hobby, sometimes it just worth it to pony up and buy new. I like the feeling of using an old tool that may have been used by several generations of craftsmen, but I also like pulling out a beautifully made LN plane and hoping that maybe I'll be the first in a long line of craftsmen to use it...

[Pat Zabrocki]

What I find most interesting (and a bit sad) about these conversations is the level of defensiveness that always manifests itself.

Why is it that some people always assume that snobbishness/gluttony/stupidity... plays a major factor in someone else's decision making?

Not everyone succumbs to this temptation, but enough do that in any given thread on the subject it ALWAYS rears its ugly head. I mean really, some of the comments directed at each other are completely unwarranted and they actually reveal much more about the commenter than who they are aimed at; and it's not flattering.

Different people with different priorities and circumstances can arrive at vastly different decisions and both be completely rational.

If you like rust hunting, fine, but recognize that not everyone does. If the quality modern tool makers offer a good value proposition for you, fine, but recognize that they may not for others. If someone does like to "collect" tools, so what? How on earth does that hurt you?

I buy both old and new (and don't intend to collect, but still do a bit of that because sometimes I just can't help myself...), but since I don't have the time or inclination to make rust hunting another hobby, sometimes it just worth it to pony up and buy new. I like the feeling of using an old tool that may have been used by several generations of craftsmen, but I also like pulling out a beautifully made LN plane and hoping that maybe I'll be the first in a long line of craftsmen to use it...

Well said!!!
cheers
Pat

[James Carmichael]

What I find most interesting (and a bit sad) about these conversations is the level of defensiveness that always manifests itself.

...

I haven't noticed anyone getting defensive in this thread. I do recall one some time back regardging very high-end planes (in the four-figure range), where some folks were getting downright offensive.

Whatever floats your boat. I love searching for the proverbial "Stradivarius in the Junkyard", finding and restoring "old arn", whether it's tailed or not. I also salavate at the sight of LN, LV, and the reailly high-end infill planes.

I found once I got over the "wow" of rehabbing an oldie, restoring old tools had become the tail wagging the dog. It's fun on it's own, but time is limited and I needed to produce some actual projects.

I make do with a small and motley collection of planes: Stanley LA block, Krenov-style jack (2" wide), Miller Falls #7 (skew rabbet), and an old Bailey jointer with the top of the frog broken off. All except the MF with Hock irons. Waiting in my plane drawer for some attention are a 1 1/2" Hock/Krenov iron kit and a road-kill-condition 605c.

[george wilson]

David,I haven't picked up on you acting rich. Now I'm gong to have to scrutinize your posts more carefully!:)

[Joe Close]

I think it boils down to personal preference of what a guy/gal likes to work with.... Or...
146370

:D

[Frederick Gross]

When I started out, I got most of my planes at a local swap meet because most people didn't know what they had or what it was worth. Most were fettled out and used; the more "collectible" ones were lightly cleaned and admired.

Various skills were honed in the fettling process that a price can't be put on. I enjoyed the satisfaction and pride from bringing a tool back from the dead.

But I also wanted to get more woodworking tools because you can't build something with just a plane. So they went on Ebay and it took awhile, but I was able to pay for the machinery in my current shop with the proceeds (including a drawer full of LN planes).

Finding planes these days is alot harder, but I see them from time to time and I can't resist buying them. I have a few stacked under the stairs that I will fettle out when I make the time. I will "play" with them a little bit and probably sell them.

I will never sell my LN's as long as I am able to use them. And I have a feeling it won't be too hard to find a good home for them.

[Brian Kent]

I'm about 4 years into this now. That give me several full rounds of buying new, buying cheap, rehabbing old, making new. Really the only thing I am looking for at the moment is, "Which tool can I pick up, hone quickly, and get the job done without bad side effects like tear-outs?"

I am happy with the ones that will do this and still looking for the ones where mine don't do the job yet. For those I look at all the angles I can. Can I sharpen one I have better and make it work? What would I buy if cost were no object? What can I make successfully that I could not afford to buy?