Help with a table saw decision! Craftsman 21833 vs. 22124

[ben grossman]

Hello everyone! I am new here, but have been lurking for a while. I am a beginner, but I have plans to build furniture and small projects. I have built a few things, expedient shelves and work benches and the like, but plan to start my first furniture projects in the next few days. Currently I have a slightly oversize two-car garage (which holds 2 cars when I am not working in it).

I had a small Craftsman contractor saw I purchased a couple years ago. I recently sold it because it clearly did not meet my needs, and bought a Craftsman 21833 on sale. It seemed like a pretty nice saw. However, I have been watching the Sears outlet and reading online, and I have found a 22124 in my area. It is not super-cheap like some people have gotten, but it is cheaper than retail.

I am wondering if I should return the 21833 and get the 22124. I have been out of town and have not assembled the 21833 yet (though it is out of the box). The 22124 is about $250 more than the 21833 and I would have to build or buy a mobile base for the saw (which would add another $100 to the price). I don’t know what condition the 22124 is in, though, and if it is in bad shape that certainly would ruin the deal.

I think that overall the 22124 is probably a better saw, and certainly the fence is a huge upgrade—though the 21833 for the money seems pretty good. Unfortunately, currently I am just not real excited about spending the extra money. My biggest complaint (other than the lack of wheels) for the 22124 is the lack of a riving knife. It seems like a fairly good idea to have one, though I guess I might be able to add one later. I am also concerned with the extra weight and being able to get it out of the back of my truck. The 21833 is also lighter, and it sounds like it is more complicated to align and make my own blade inserts for. I could add a Delta T2 fence to the 21833, but that would be $150-200, which would make it about the same price.

What are your thoughts? I have been watching Craig’s List in my area a fair amount, and haven’t really seen much in my price range.

[scott spencer]

You've touched on most of the pros and cons of the deal and have an executive decision to make that makes sense for you.

IMHO, the 22124 is indeed the better saw, but I'm biased. I owned one for 3-1/2 years and really liked it...the cabinet mounted trunnions and Biesemeyer fence are two significant advantages...the extra 150# of stability is significant too, plus it's a well proven saw, but as you've pointed out there is an extra cost. The 22124 also doesn't have a riving knife, but it does have a stock splitter, and there are several good aftermarket splitters available, including the $20 Microjig splitter, or you can make your own. There's also an aftermarket riving knife called the "************" (Bolt On Ripping Knife) from Walnutacre Woodworking (www.the****store.com (http://www.the****store.com/)). I think a riving knife is a better mousetrap, but it's still a mousetrap and I don't think it merits a huge premium...a good splitter will do the same job if used properly. I certainly think you can get a mobile base for well under $100.

Just to help muddy the waters some more (:rolleyes:), the 22116 went on sale for < $700 just a few weeks ago...also worth some consideration if that happens again. Good luck!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/RT/rt001-1.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/RT/?action=view&current=rt001-1.jpg)

[Joe Scharle]

I've had a 22124 since they first came out. It's not really a hybrid; more like a baby cabinet saw @1.75hp. However, it's a perfect size for me. I will point out that a riving knife upgrade will be a non-trivial upgrade.
That said, it's made by Steel City for Sears and the new Steel City likeness, comes with a riving knife.

[Greg Wittler]

If I were to buy a Hybrid TS (and almost did istead of a full size CS)it would be the 22124 over any others. But if you decide to do so, make sure you check out the condition and remember the mesmerizing affects of Cash (even when it is less than asking) on the general public. Good used equipment always seems to pop up after you pull the trigger.

Greg

[rocky brown]

the extra weight, the trunnions, the bessie fence, the cast iron wings, 1 3/4 hp- it's all good:) the 22124 replaced a ridgid ts3650 in my shop and i thought it would be my last saw for awhile- then i found a jet cabinet saw that i could afford:D

[Jon Canfield]

I bought a 22116 recently and have finally had the time to finish putting it together. It seems similar to the 22124 in quality, but does have the riving knife. I think the biggest difference, at least in my limited knowledge, is the granite top on the 22116.
After all the online purchase & craftsman club discount, and a bing cash-back, I ended up paying about $660 including 8.25% sales tax.

Jon

[ben grossman]

Thanks for all the replies, it helps a lot! I think I am going to try to get the 22124, unless something else comes along. Wow, a 22116 for $660? What do you think of the fence, since it is no longer a Beisemeyer? I am also a little worried about the granite top, it seems a lot more prone to breaking or something. Is the granite in one piece, or several? One concern is being able to get it out of my truck. I think with the 22124 if I remove the table from the cabinet, it should be light enough to get out.

[Kevin Gregoire]

ben, i am new to woodworking also and the 22124 was the first thing i bought, i didnt really know any better and i got it for $600 and at the time sears was still selling it for over a grand so i thought it was a great deal.
but having limited knowledge of everything woodworking and some cash burning a hole in my pocket i took the plunge and bought the saw, it was used very little and was in fantastic shape but i had to have three people help load it, it is not light by any means! you will hurt yourself if you try to move it alone, even if you pull the top off.
after having the saw not quite a year now, i do like it except for a shutter when it spins down after turning it off (still not sure what causes that?)
i had some guys from a local woodworking club help tune it and get it set up and it runs and cuts very well and the best part is the beis fence.
but i think if i would have had the extra money at the time i would have done some research and probably bought a better saw like a griz, jet, or delta and if i had a lot of extra money i would have the black beauty in my shop! (sawstop)

you didnt say how much the saw was? if you dont have a lot of cash and if its in good shape and under $400, get it. if its in great shape and under $500, get it but anything more i would look for better and newer.
but like i said, im new but one thing i do is a helluva lot of reading and there is some good stuff out there so do some research before you rush into anything!

good luck!

[Kev Godwin]

Ben,
What Joe said of the 22124 - it really isn't a hybrid as many call it. As he said it is a small cabinet saw based on the horsepower.

I've looked at the other model but have only used my 22124. I also made a replacement splitter for mine using the original blade guard/prawls/splitter thing as a pattern. It isn't a riving knife but does work quite well and can be removed or replaced in just a few seconds.
Kev

[ben grossman]

Well, I went into the Sears that had the 22124 today, and it was pretty much an awful experience. The sales associate and manager were no fun to deal with at all. The 22124 was $671 brand new in the box, but it was missing the fence. They would not discount it further, though I told them I would buy my own fence if they made a deal--which they said the original $950 price was clearance priced and $671 was for the missing parts. They were very unprofessional, unfortunately. I returned the 21833 (the dock guys ended up dumping it all over the parking lot), and got my money back. :mad:

So, now I am back in the market for a new saw. The 22116 is currently 15% off online, but that is still $850. I guess at this point I just as well spend the money for a good saw to get what I want, instead of something that will "do for now".

So, what should I look into buying? I have 220v in my garage right now, so I would prefer something 110v/220v capable--however for the next couple of years I will be renting and I do not know how long we will stay here (potential mold problems) so it needs to be 110v-capable as well. This rules out cabinet saws, I think. It has to be mobile-or be able to be made mobile, and not incredibly oversized. I would prefer a riving knife, and I'm not completely sold on granite, due to all the breakage.

I'll keep my eye open for used, but where should I look for new? What is better than the Craftsman hybrids under $1000?

[scott spencer]

If you're a Craftsman Club member you might get better pricing on the 22116. Also, if you originate the search thru Bing.com, there's usually 5%-8% Cashback available. You can always try a different manager for the 22124, or make a counter offer, or find a used one. It only takes one "yes" to make the deal.

The Grizzly G0661 looks to be a nice saw to me, but I'm not overly familiar with it...cast iron, riving knife, hybrid format with an enclosed motor, nice fence.

The Steel City 35920 is ~ $650 with a more modest fence similar to the R4511, the 35930 is in the $900 range with the SC industrial fence....about the same saw as the 22116.

The Jet Proshop is a nice saw, but doesn't have a riving knife...same for the Delta hybrids, which means they should be appropriately discounted.

Porter Cable has a new $600 stationary saw at Lowes that appears to be based on the Hitachi C10FL, but with some updates....haven't seen one though.

Your friends here at SMC can help keep their eyes peeled for other deals. Watch those CL and Ebay deals too.

[Joe Scharle]

Thanks for all the replies, it helps a lot! I think I am going to try to get the 22124, unless something else comes along. Wow, a 22116 for $660? What do you think of the fence, since it is no longer a Beisemeyer? I am also a little worried about the granite top, it seems a lot more prone to breaking or something. Is the granite in one piece, or several? One concern is being able to get it out of my truck. I think with the 22124 if I remove the table from the cabinet, it should be light enough to get out.

Don't throw out the shipping frame if you get a Steel City or Sears 22124. Put casters on one end and a ply top on the other. Like this:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1582/thumbs/105A_1_.jpg (http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1582/105A_1_.jpg)

[glenn bradley]

Another biased 22124 owner. The fence makes all the difference. Search here on how may folks upgrade their fences. Just food for thought but, no riving knife. I went with MJ Splitters. It's under there somewhere . . . .

[Igor Petrenko]

I am the owner of 21833, it's a lot of contractor's saw for $425 - riving knife, mobile base, enclosed motor, very quiet and almost no vibration.
However the fence is quite bad and assembly/setup was long and painfull.

[Jon Canfield]

I used the Craftsman club discount that saved about 15%, and there was an online only discount at the time. Going through Bing saved me another 8%, and I opted for in-store pickup. They loaded it into my truck for me, and my wife and I were able to get it unloaded by braking the box down in the truck.

The table is one piece of granite, the wings are each another piece.

I haven't had a Biese fence before, but this looks to be a very nice fence and similar, at least visually, to the Biese.

I was very pleased with the alignment - miter to blade was only a bit over .001 off out of the box, and rather than risk making it worse, I've left it there since most of what I've read here leads me to believe that's more than good enough.

Jon

[ben grossman]

Well, based on everyone's help it sounds like I am looking at the Craftsman 22124 or 22116, the Steel City 35920, or maybe a r4511 (if I can find one, which is doubtful). It sounds like some people are complaining about quality issues with the 35920 though, which is discouraging. The SC 35930 is appealing, but I would prefer not to spend that much. I am a Craftsman Club member, but I did not see any discounts for the 22116 right now.

Hopefully the 22116 will go on sale again soon. I am kind of warming up to the granite top, but I am still a little leery of it. The built in riving knife is very appealing. I will keep my eyes open for another 22124, and I might call the store back to see if another manager would be willing to help. If all that is missing is the fence, and I can get a good deal, I would buy my own (maybe even just a T2).

On a side note, in the General International spring/summer promotion catalog they have their universal mobile base that is rated to 500lbs. at $59.99. The ones I was looking at previously in that price range were only rated to 400lbs.

[Ian Steven]

Does anyone know if the Craftsman club will give a discount on the 22116? If so, how can you get the website to recognize it? I've been trying to get it to work for a while now.

[Jon Canfield]

The club discount was applied automatically for me when I ordered. I don't know if there is still an active one for the saw though. They do seem to have frequent sales, it's worth checking back.

[scott spencer]

The club discount was applied automatically for me when I ordered. I don't know if there is still an active one for the saw though. They do seem to have frequent sales, it's worth checking back.

I think the Club discount is only available during select times during the month.

Now here's a discount scenario to check into...there might even be some restrictions but it was possible once upon a time. If you can find a Sears gift card on Ebay and purchase it as a Buy It Now item with the 8% Cashback discount, you might be able to double dip by getting also getting the Cashback deal thru Sears in addition to whatever deal you can swing, and pay for the saw (or part of the saw) with the gift card. Worth checking into.

[ben grossman]

Well, I think I have narrowed it down to the Craftsman Pro 22116 and the Steel City 35930. They are practically the same saw, but some minor differences.

The SC 35930 has bigger crank wheels and comes with a built-in set of wheels. I think I have seen it for $950 plus shipping, and it comes with a 5-year warranty. Having it shipped may prevent the hassle of having to get it down out of my truck.

The Craftsman 22116 is on sale for $899 today (prices change constantly), and I can pick it up in the store. I would have to of course pick it up to avoid shipping. However, I would have to add the wheel kit and I believe it only comes with a one-year warranty. I have also been less-than-enamored with the service I have received from Sears stores lately. Sure would be nice to get one like some have under $700.

I am kind of leaning towards the SC saw, and I think a local place sells them so I am going to try and check them out. Already checked out a 22116, and it seems pretty nice.

[John Carlo]

I've had the 22124 for several years now and find it is accurate with little tweaking required from the factory setup. The Leitz blade that comes with it is excellent. The design of the saw allows it to run smoothly which produces an excellent cut. I have an extra cast iron wing on mine.
I love the saw but wouldn't buy one again for two reasons. The length of the arbor won't accommodate a full dado stack nor let me really get much width out of my Freud adjustable dado. And if it did the 1 3/4 hp motor would seem underpowered for this purpose unless you took repetitive cuts to reach the desired depth.
It's a great saw but I should have bought a 3 or 5 HP with a 52" fence rail to start. I think that a lot of us might end up at this realization when we start building more and more cabinets. Of course if price and space are an issue, there are other ways to do dados and with patience and careful work, wider cuts can be achieved by moving the fence after the initial cut.

[ben grossman]

Arrggghh! How frustrating a process this has been!

So, I called Steel City and asked them a few questions today. They were very helpful, and did a good job in answering my questions.

They confirmed that the 35920 and 35930 are basically identical saws, except the fence and an additional add-on wood table board. The 35930 was discontinued because it is far too similar to the 35900G.

I went to a local dealer that carries Steel City, and they had a 35920 on hand. I really liked the saw, except the fence. It wasn't very smooth at all, though it did lock pretty well. It seems a bit clumsy to move, and you can lift the back end off the table easily. I thought the 35920 seemed like a nicer saw than the Craftsman 22116, but it could just be that particular store model.

The 35900G has a bigger top, the crank wheels are machined steel instead of aluminum, the motor access door is quick-access metal instead of plastic, and they say it is a true cabinet saw. The miter tracks are t-tracks in the top, instead of the plain u-channels on the 35920 (not sure if this actually makes a difference). Unfortunately, it is $1100, plus a wheel kit.

So, I guess now the question is should I spend close to $1200 for a saw, or spend half that on one with a fence I don't really like but could probably use just fine and upgrade later. I almost think I should save spending that kind of money for when I can get an actual 220v cabinet saw.

At least I've narrowed it down a little bit... :o

[Rick Markham]

Sorry to jump in here at the last minute, but I have had a Ridgid 3612 for eight years and have never had a problem with it, it has been a rock solid workhorse for me. It is worth looking at the newer model that you spoke of, if their quality is the same, it was an excellent value. I have not had any complaints about the fence, it's smooth and has been very accurate. I have never had to readjust alignment of the trunion or re-square the blade. I have a limited amount of space and it has worked absolutely perfectly for me.

I have purchased their thickness planer this year, and have no complaints regarding it, it has worked flawlessly so far, straight out of the box, it was set up beautifully. I also purchased a 15" drill press this year, and am amazed at how absolutely tight the quill is throughout it's entire travel. Having read the threads regarding PM and other brands of drill press having substantial slop in the quill, I was amazed when I measured the tolerances on mine. I am just mentioning these as they lead me to believe that their quality (in my experience) has been excellent for the money and still is. Having said that I have not had the opportunity try their newer version of my table saw, I had noticed that the fence locking mechanism looked more substantial than mine, however I haven't had any problems what so ever. I don't know if any of this is worth anything to you, but I thought I would throw it out there.

After having read the thread regarding "the flying table saw" from Grizzly, I would seriously look hard at their products, they are an amazing value, and their customer service in that instance has been far beyond anyone's expectations. I personally, have never had a "good" experience with Sear's customer service, which is always a deciding factor for me.