I need dust collection that really sucks!

[Dave Haughs]

Like the title says, I need to get proactive and do something soon. My shop started off with a table saw and a hand me down craftsman 1hp dust collector. To start with it was enough, though it could probably be argued its 15 years old and has the original filter bags that probably don't do much more than stop chips.

My shop now has grown to take up about the size of a 1.5 car garage (I've taken over about half of our 3 car garage) and I have the following that I'd like to have (proper) dust collection at:

Contractor Style Table Saw
Router Table
Band Saw
12.5" Planer
6" Jointer
Chop saw
Drill press
Midi Lathe

At the table saw I just have it hooked up at the bottom right now but I am going to get a dust hood for it, in fact I have a lead on a slightly used one in town for cheap. The router is my best setup right now, I have bottom enclosed and hooked up and the fence is hooked up too, I get very little dust from the router if I work it right. The rest of the tools are another story.

I keep putting off designing a proper system and the more I have read and looked into this even running the right duct work my dust collector has to go. My shop get's dusty, bad. I know it's not healthy levels. Everything is covered in dust. I'd really like to stop doing that for many reasons. The number 1 reason being health. It's an attached garage so I know the dust is getting carried into the house. Anyway I think we all agree with this.

So I need some help. I've read and read and read and it sounds like a properly setup cyclone is the way to go but I don't know what that is. I look around and the Penn State units are half what the others are. Obviously I want to spend as little as possible but I want it to be right and be a permanent solution. I want dust collection at everything listed above and I want it to work. It's a one man shop and I only use one machine at a time obviously.

Help! :confused::D

[Dave Gaul]

Dave,

I am pretty much in the same boat as you... I have a "do for now" setup, and I'm looking to upgrade to a permanent DC setup... I too have read TONS of info... I am leaning towards a PSI cylcone, the black 2.5hp Tempest model, but the ebay cyclone w/a PSI blower is a tempting idea too! I've also considered the new "V" model cyclones from Onieda.

Two big factors we need to know are your budget and electrical capacity. I would do the ClearVue cyclone in a heartbeat, but I don't have the juice for a 5hp motor! You really want to get the best setup you can on the budget you have...

[Robert Parrish]

Well good luck Dave, I have been trying to buy an DC to supplement my Jet 1100 for two weeks. I placed two orders only to be told they are on back order (G0548Z and PM1300). Penn State also has a lot of merchandise on back order.

[Dave Haughs]

Yeah I forgot about power and budget:

Power - I've got whatever I need (well up to 220) available in the shop via an easy to access sub panel and where I plan to locate the dust collector will require me to run some wire anyway so that's sort of non issue

Budget - well as cheap as possible. I don't want to spend anything, isn't that the way this goes? But I'll do what it takes I suppose. I'd like to stay under a grand but I'm not sure if that is going to be possible.

I think it goes without saying that I'd like to keep it as quiet as possible.

[Rod Sheridan]

I installed an Oneida cyclone in the basement of my townhouse about 8 years ago.

It was the best equipment purchase I've made.

It eliminated the ultra fine dust that previously got through the bag type collector.

My shop is clean, my lungs are clean, and the remainder of the house is clean.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. In addition it's made in America, which was also a selling point for me.

[Dave Haughs]

P.S. In addition it's made in America, which was also a selling point for me.


That's most certainly a selling point.

I've briefly looked at that one and the Clear Vue. Everyone boasts about the clear view but the MDF assembly and having to buy and cutup a trashcan just seems sketchy to me, now if its the best bang for the buck I'll give it a try, I just wonder about it and what makes it so special.

What makes a cyclone so much better? Do you get more airflow or is it just that they have better separation and the filters last longer?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Dave, as your post doesn't list your location, I assumed you were in the US, so American made could be a bonus.

Cyclones separate out most of the material before sending the air through the impeller and the filter.

This allows the cyclone to maintain the airflow as the filters don't get plugged, and if you want to use a device like a floor sweep, you can since any metal bits don't go through the fan. (Or blocks of wood).

I only have experience with the Oneida product, when I looked at the cyclones, they seemed to have the best product, it's their only business.

My brother also bought an Oneida cyclone and he's extremely pleased with his as well.

After a good cyclone, capturing dust at the source is the next step, I added an overarm guard (Excalibur) to my table saw, it made a large improvement in how much dust escaped.

Regards, Rod.

[Dave Haughs]

Thanks, I forgot my location wasn't listed. :p

Like I said in the original post I found a PSI hood for my table saw locally used but in new condition, I don't see why that wouldn't work. The lathe will require some sort of hood I guess with lots of airflow.

I'll take a closer look at Oneida, seems like they offer a complete package.

[Dave Haughs]

Rod,

Which Oneida do you have? They have the Gorilla and the V series. I'm trying to figure out what separates them.

[Philip Rodriquez]

I started with a Jet 1 HP unit. Was pretty good at getting the big stuff. Unfortunately, the CFM drops as the bags fill up because the air vents through the top and bottom bags.
My second one was a Jet 1100C (canister) unit that I purchased used for $180. It was a good unit and was able to keep the CFM's up as long as the canister was clean (which takes a lot of work when you run a 16/32 thickness sander). Unfortunately, when I purchased an Excalibur over arm blade guard, the unit was not able to keep up with my needs.
My current setup is an Oneida V-3000. I called Oneida, gave them my shop layout and they (to my surprise) recommended the V-3000. I seriously would have purchased anything they recommended! Now, I've had it for almost 6 months and I couldn't be happier.
A cyclone sends very few fine particles to the filter. I maybe get a teaspoon per 35 gallons of sawdust. Therefore, you are very easily able to maintain your rated CFM. For a small one man shop, a cyclone is a great way to go... they just cost a lot of cash :eek:.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod,

Which Oneida do you have? They have the Gorilla and the V series. I'm trying to figure out what separates them.

Hi Dave, I have a 1.5HP component system, which is no longer made. It has a 1.5HP motor, a galvanized cyclone body with a 35 gallon fibre drum and a large external filter.

The performance is as follows with SP in inches of water versus CFM.

1"/957

5"/650

8"/261

The fan curve is essentially straight so you could plot it out if you wish.

Regards, Rod.

[Dave Gaul]

Rod,

Which Oneida do you have? They have the Gorilla and the V series. I'm trying to figure out what separates them.


Dave, I too searched for the answer to the same question! Best I can tell from the stats from Oneida's site, is that the V series is a little shorter that the Gorillas, so the CFM's are slightly lower. They seem to have the same motor/blower... If I go with Oneida it will be the V-3000

[Dave Haughs]

Dave, I too searched for the answer to the same question! Best I can tell from the stats from Oneida's site, is that the V series is a little shorter that the Gorillas, so the CFM's are slightly lower. They seem to have the same motor/blower... If I go with Oneida it will be the V-3000


Seems like you get more for your money with the Oneida than the Clear View provided they work pretty much the same. Plus the Clear View in my opinion looks cheap and ugly for what you spend.

I went home at lunch and filled out Oneida's form and sent it over so we will see what they have to say.

Another nice thing about the Oneida is Woodcraft carries it so maybe I can get it to their store to avoid shipping??? Hmmm.

I still haven't ruled out PSI or any other canister or bag style, seems like cyclone is the way to go for the long term though....

[Dave Haughs]

I started with a Jet 1 HP unit. Was pretty good at getting the big stuff. Unfortunately, the CFM drops as the bags fill up because the air vents through the top and bottom bags.
My second one was a Jet 1100C (canister) unit that I purchased used for $180. It was a good unit and was able to keep the CFM's up as long as the canister was clean (which takes a lot of work when you run a 16/32 thickness sander). Unfortunately, when I purchased an Excalibur over arm blade guard, the unit was not able to keep up with my needs.
My current setup is an Oneida V-3000. I called Oneida, gave them my shop layout and they (to my surprise) recommended the V-3000. I seriously would have purchased anything they recommended! Now, I've had it for almost 6 months and I couldn't be happier.
A cyclone sends very few fine particles to the filter. I maybe get a teaspoon per 35 gallons of sawdust. Therefore, you are very easily able to maintain your rated CFM. For a small one man shop, a cyclone is a great way to go... they just cost a lot of cash :eek:.



How big is your shop? How many drops? Just curious. I just got off the phone with them and they recommended the V-2000 for me. They know better than I do so I will take their work for it, just curious how your setup compares to what I have. They said it would be find adding drops just wouldn't be able to extend the main line another 20 feet, which is fine because I can't anyway.

[Philip Rodriquez]

I've got 5 drops. One to a 15" planer, one to a 10" jointer, two to my ICS Sawstop w/ Excalibur DC, and an extra one that I use for my 18" BS, Performax 16/32, 3 HP Shaper, and my router table. I just roll them over!

My shop is a 989 SF attached garage that I still put 2 cars in. In all, it was $2,200. For me, everything is within 15 feet of the cyclone and I get crazy suction.:D

Oh, and go with the V3000 if it is in your price range... This will allow you to add an overarm blade guard...

[Paul Wunder]

Dave,

With that list of tools and an area of about 20X30 feet, you are in cyclone territory. Although a cyclone represents a commitment of time and money it will give you the best results. Unfortunately, there is very little objective testing under shop conditions to help you make a decision. American Woodworker magazine in 2006 did such an objective test and measured the fan curves under load (true capacity to do work) and the amount of "fine dust" that gets back to the filters (meaning it wasn't separated properly and deposited in the collection bin). The Oneida Super Dust Gorilla series and the Grizzly G44x series did well on both fan curves and separation. The comparable Penn State units did not separate fine dust well at all and the objectively measured fan curve was much lower than what the manufacturer claimed. The ClearVue cyclone was either not around or too new at the time to be included. However, consistent anecdotal evidence from satisfied users attest to exceptional power and fine dust separation. There has been no objective testing of the V-2000/3000 series and it appears to be a price driven design compromise over the Dust Gorilla series.

Mosey over to the Bill Pentz website and spend some time reading about "fine dust", fan curves and "required" static pressure in order to really clean your shop and prevent health problems. Bill has designed what is usually acknowledged as the best cyclone and ClearVue is the company that licensed his design. I looked at them all, but purchased the ClearVue. I am sure that others will chime in too.

Paul

[Dave Haughs]

I've got 5 drops. One to a 15" planer, one to a 10" jointer, two to my ICS Sawstop w/ Excalibur DC, and an extra one that I use for my 18" BS, Performax 16/32, 3 HP Shaper, and my router table. I just roll them over!

My shop is a 989 SF attached garage that I still put 2 cars in. In all, it was $2,200. For me, everything is within 15 feet of the cyclone and I get crazy suction.:D

Oh, and go with the V3000 if it is in your price range... This will allow you to add an overarm blade guard...


Well the V2000 was quoted with the overarm blade guard in place (even though I don't have it yet). Sounds like we have about the same area (3 car garage) though just like you my main trunk line will only be about 15-20 feet with a half dozen drops. Price difference is only $100 between the two to get more power than I need and get the 3000. Seems like the way to go since I can't guarantee I will never change my configuration or double my number of tools. The db rating isn't difference either, neither is size....

I wouldn't say either is in my price range but at $100 difference I'd say they are pretty much the same price. So $2200 was duct work and everything.

I need cheaper hobbies.

But I really do need to do something. Wonder if I can justify this into the cost of the bathroom remodel..... Hmmmm how much are custom vanities and cabinets compared to what it's costing me to build them....:p

[Chris Padilla]

I need cheaper hobbies.

Let me/us know when you find that magic/cheap hobby...I don't think it exists....

[Dave Haughs]

Let me/us know when you find that magic/cheap hobby...I don't think it exists....

:D


I've got 5 drops. One to a 15" planer, one to a 10" jointer, two to my ICS Sawstop w/ Excalibur DC, and an extra one that I use for my 18" BS, Performax 16/32, 3 HP Shaper, and my router table. I just roll them over!

My shop is a 989 SF attached garage that I still put 2 cars in. In all, it was $2,200. For me, everything is within 15 feet of the cyclone and I get crazy suction.:D

Oh, and go with the V3000 if it is in your price range... This will allow you to add an overarm blade guard...

So does your shop stay dust free or do you notice dust building up on anything?



Mosey over to the Bill Pentz website and spend some time reading about "fine dust", fan curves and "required" static pressure in order to really clean your shop and prevent health problems. Bill has designed what is usually acknowledged as the best cyclone and ClearVue is the company that licensed his design. I looked at them all, but purchased the ClearVue. I am sure that others will chime in too.

Paul

I've been reading through it. Going to do some more reading on it tonight.

[Dave Haughs]

Well did more reading last night. I guess I know what I need to do for the long run as much as I don't want to spend the money. Seems like I could probably get by with a smaller canister/bag style 2hp portable unit but I probably wouldn't be happy in the long run.... It's hard to judge those bag/canister units as the CFM rating's all seem to be without duct work and I can't find any good tests or curves out there to justify a $500 canister unit over a $1k cyclone.....

[Rod Sheridan]

Go for the cyclone Dave, you won't regret it, you'll just regret not spending enough when you have to do it over again.

Regards, Rod.

[Dave Haughs]

Go for the cyclone Dave, you won't regret it, you'll just regret not spending enough when you have to do it over again.

Regards, Rod.


Yeah the accountant in me is crunching the numbers while the engineer in me is over thinking it all while the photographer in me is realizing that photography is a much cheaper and safer hobby and the gear head in me is wondering who wants to buy my engine hoist and stand that are in the corner where the cyclone will go :D

[Paul Mullan]

I have the 3hp dustgorilla from onidea.

The thing works awsome they did the duct design for me. I have 5 drops.

My mitre saw is about 30 feet from the cyclone and no dust comes out of it.

I run two machines at the same time and I have no problems with suction.

I always forget to close blast gates so even with three or four open it still pulls good.
I know when I run my woodmaster drum sander I have to leave another gate open as it is just to much suction, it rattles the baffle inside the machine if I don't.

Worth every penny IMHO.

Paul

[Dave Haughs]

Well I am close to pulling the trigger on the 3hp unit. But now they threw more into the mix...

The 3hp unit is $100 more, kind of makes it a no brainer at that point, but for another $151 on top of that they have a package deal that throws in dust deputy (i really don't need this), remote control (don't realy need this in my shop but it might be nice) and the bag gripper.

The bag gripper is what I wonder about. Is it worth having?

[Terry Hatfield]

Cheaper in the long run to buy what you KNOW that you should buy and not be looking back thinking that you made a mistake by buying what you KNOW you will not be happy with. Happy check writing.

Terry

[Rod Sheridan]

Dave, if you use a bag inside the drum, the bag gripper is great.

It keeps the bag from swirling around and becomming knotted.

That would be nice, so would the remote, depending upon your shop size.

Regards, Rod.

[Paul Mullan]

I know they had a deal on the remotes you get extra ones for like 10 bucks each.

that would be nice to have one on each blast gate. but not really needed.

but having one on your belt or shop apron is very handy I would definatly get that.

I just picked up an extra 55 gallon drum, with a lid.so it gives me time to get ride of the full one while using the other one. amazing how fast it fills the bin.

Paul

[Philip Rodriquez]

Dave, see if you can buy a use canister unit on Craigsist. I paid 180 and sold it, with the flex hose and my leftover fittings, for 450. I got a smok'n deal and the person that got it from me got a good deal.

If your only choice is to buy new, save for a cyclone. The V-3000 is properly sized for a home shop with one person. Plus, the sould levels aren't too bad.

[Dave Haughs]

O
Dave, see if you can buy a use canister unit on Craigsist. I paid 180 and sold it, with the flex hose and my leftover fittings, for 450. I got a smok'n deal and the person that got it from me got a good deal.

If your only choice is to buy new, save for a cyclone. The V-3000 is properly sized for a home shop with one person. Plus, the sould levels aren't too bad.


thanks. That's pretty much where I am now. I guess I need to bite the bullet and buy the 3000 and sell my 1HP unit with tubing and gates and throw in the dust deputy with it to recover some lunch money. I guess the irrigation system isn't going in this year ;)

[Philip Rodriquez]

To start, it wouldn't be too bad to forego the ductwork. That's where everything starts to get really expensive. Have them do the design and see if you can buy the parts locally.

I think you can get it with 20 feet of flex hose, a 6/5 reducer and a 5/4 reducer. This would allow you to move it from tool to tool, assuming they are within reach of the machine.


Down the road, buy the wyes and 5” blast gates from them and I honestly think you could get away with Home Depot S/L for everyting else.

[Dave Haughs]

To start, it wouldn't be too bad to forego the ductwork. That's where everything starts to get really expensive. Have them do the design and see if you can buy the parts locally.

I think you can get it with 20 feet of flex hose, a 6/5 reducer and a 5/4 reducer. This would allow you to move it from tool to tool, assuming they are within reach of the machine.


Down the road, buy the wyes and 5” blast gates from them and I honestly think you could get away with Home Depot S/L for everyting else.



You read my mind! That's what I am doing since I know what running the ductwork will lead to and I need to finish the bathroom before I remodel the shop....again....:D

[Tom Rash]

I just setup my v3000 about 3 weeks ago. I have not setup proper duct work yet so I am just using 6 inch flex hose until later in the summer. When I purchased from them about 1 month ago I got them to throw the remote in for free and they lowered the shipping by $50. So for me the increase from the 2000 to 3000 only was 50 dollars. I would def ask and see if they will do something similar for you. With the purchase of the 3000 they will design the duct work for you.

Overall I am happy with it and should be much happier once I get all the duct work. I was on the fence on what I wanted to do, but the dust was getting a bit much in my basement. Good luck with whatever you choose

[Dave Haughs]

I was on the fence on what I wanted to do, but the dust was getting a bit much in my basement. Good luck with whatever you choose

Sounds like my story. Garage is the main way in and out of the house and the dust is getting to be too much and I'm starting to feel it.


Trigger pulled :D on the 3000 sale deal they have going on through the rest of the month. Remote, bag gripper, 20ft flex hose, clamps, adapters, dust deputy, plus I opted for the wall mount. The bag gripper and remote made the price difference worth it, and then some.

Once I get it (a week or so I guess) I'll post back up with some photos and opinions.

Thank you all for your opinions and advice, it helped.

[John Lanciani]

146029

146030

Dave,

Here's a couple of shots of some simple modifications I did to the wall bracket. I added a brace to make it studier (should be done by Oneida) and I put rubber dampers between the cyclone and the bracket to help with vibration and noise transmission.

John

[Greg Portland]

I've briefly looked at that one and the Clear Vue. Everyone boasts about the clear view but the MDF assembly and having to buy and cutup a trashcan just seems sketchy to me, now if its the best bang for the buck I'll give it a try, I just wonder about it and what makes it so special.My thoughts:

Clearvue is better at:
- best DC performance / dollar for 1-person shops (blast gates shut, 6" run from DC to drop)
- ability to see chip level / DC problems
- Winn filters are excellent + VERY little dust goes into the filters (even fine dust is collected in the drum)
- "Lightweight" system. Even with 2 people, lifting the cyclone onto support brackets REALLY sucks. I can only imagine the heavier Oneida cyclones.

Oneida is better at:
- larger DC system performance for multiple person shops (8"+ DC to branch for multiple machines)
- free ductwork design
- steel cyclone & mounting frame
- Everything is ready out of the box (2-3hr setup vs all day setup on the Clearvue)

IMO, the 5HP+ industrial Oneida systems are excellent and you pay for that excellence. With any system, modification to the tool's DC port can greatly improve collection efficiency.

I have a Clearvue but ordered pipe through Oneida (free design if you spend $500 IIRC).

[Dave Haughs]

Dave,

Here's a couple of shots of some simple modifications I did to the wall bracket. I added a brace to make it studier (should be done by Oneida) and I put rubber dampers between the cyclone and the bracket to help with vibration and noise transmission.

John

Thanks. Plenty of scrap metal laying around, I'll weld something up to it when I get it in. Looks like it's already shipped so hopefully I'll have some gloat this weekend :D

[Dave Haughs]

They don't mess around. It got here this am so I went home at lunch and un-boxed it all (all 7 boxes). Haven't even started hooking it up but just looking at it all I the build quality is great, there is a lot material there for the money, if it works half as good as the parts look it should work out great. I'll post back up once it's hooked up.

[Dave Haughs]

WOW! That's all I can say. Not even a comparison to my old DC. Need to run the ductwork some time this summer. Also picked up a used PSI table saw gaurd, mounted to the cealing, need to triangulate it a bit for more support but so far zero dust in the air!

[Jim Andrew]

Congratulations on your purchase of a cyclone. But I would be looking for a bigger barrel. Mine is a 50 gallon, and when I plane down lumber, I constantly run it over. So keep a close eye on the hose running into the drum.

[Dave Haughs]

Congratulations on your purchase of a cyclone. But I would be looking for a bigger barrel. Mine is a 50 gallon, and when I plane down lumber, I constantly run it over. So keep a close eye on the hose running into the drum.

:D Yeah already emptied it first day of use from planing. It's got more capacity than my old bag unit but it also sucks up more dust.... I'll keep my eyes open for a bigger drum down the road.