Not about the chisels

[dennis thompson]

I was reading a well know woodworking magazine & a reader wrote in asking for a recommendation among 3 different chisels. The magazine's response was that he should buy all 3, use them, keep the one he liked best and return the other 2. I wrote the magazine & said I thought this was dishonest & asked the magazine writer to retract his recommendation. He wrote back to me & said he was sticking to his "buy 3 & return 2" recommendation. I still think it was wrong, what do you think?
Dennis

[Bill Huber]

I agree with you 100%.

It cost all of us when people do that, the store cannot sell them as new and have to sell them at a reduced price. Then it cost them money to receive it back and do the handling on the return.

So the price of the items has to go up to cover the extra cost.

[Jim Tobias]

Totally agree with you!!

[Walter Plummer]

You are 100% right. My friend worked at Home Depot He says people do it all the time and worse. Buy the ladder on Thursday, paint all weekend and return the ladder Monday with paint on the rungs.

[glenn bradley]

Very wrong. Placing the added costs onto merchants and makers drives quality down or prices up. All this clamoring for Wal-Mart prices and Nordstoms service is hard to provide when people are using retail outlets like a public library.

[Frederick Rowe]

If the producers of the chisels had a policy which allowed for returns not based on defects, I would not see a problem. If the return required any deceit or omission it would without question be wrong.

Lie Nielsen's Policy:

If you are dissatisfied for any reason, return the tool within 30 days of purchase for your money back.I didn't see a policy for Blue Spruce Tools

Bridge City Tools:

If your tool has a workmanship defect and it is within one year from the original date of purchase, simply send it to us and we will determine whether to repair or replace the tool, at no charge to you.Lee Valley Tools:

Customer satisfaction: Any product may be returned within 3 months at no cost to the customer; we return every penny you paid us, plus, for shipments within North America, we will refund your return parcel post costs. Whether a tool from Lee Valley is one made by Veritas Tools or is one of the 5000 or so we get from around the world, it will always have our full guarantee. That means it costs you nothing to try us out.

I personally find an element if insincerity ordering three chisels knowing I'd return two. I've bought tools that I've chosen not to keep for reasons not related to a defect. I don't return them, I sell them (and bought quite a few that way). Tool preference can very subjective, same could be said for personal integrity.

[John Coloccia]

Well, this is pretty simple. Follow the vendor's return policy.

Re: costing us all more
I've read this so many times, and I've decided it's 100% wrong. How much additional business do these companies get BECAUSE if their return policies? Would anyone buy ANYTHING at Home Depot if they didn't have a no questions asked return policy? It's part of their business model.

My opnion is stop trying to second guess the way a company does business.

[Paul Atkins]

What if the customer bought cabinets from you and decided to return them because 'they just aren't right'?

[Paul Saffold]

Dennis, I agree with you and disagree with Chris Schwartz, the editor of Popular Woodworking Magazine, who wrote his comment in the April issue (#182).

I think it is only fair to note that Chris is the one we are talking about. I think he has been tremendous is his efforts to promote the neander approach to woodworking. He has created a very influential magazine, writes extensively on his blog, and his books are highly regarded. He obviously puts a lot of effort and research into his work. I look forword to reading his articles and have 2 of his books. We all know that he is often very highly praised here for his contributions and very rightly so in my opinion.

BUT, that dosen't mean we have to agree with everything he says. I'm surprised he made the suggestion he did in the magazine, but even more surprised that he didn't take more time to consider the implications of his response to you. For every letter that is sent there are many more thinking the same thoughts, but don't take the time to write. On his defense I'll say it is difficult for most of us to admit an error. Even more so when it is public. And if he maintains his attitude then thats the way it is. But we can disagree with him on this one point and still appreciate his fine work.

There have also been many, many complaints here about the customer service that many of us have received from various retailers and manufactures. So much so that when we do business with the likes of Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen for example, we praise them for being so great in their customer service. But knowing you are going to send back 2 out of 3 tools after you try them out to see which you like best is very wrong. Attitudes like that are what makes retailers less willing to have generous return policies.

I think a better suggestion for Chris to make would have been to tell the letter writer to order a different size chisel from each company. Those he didn't like as much could be his "beaters", or he could have suggested that they could be sold.

Taking the time to research our purchases is something we should do. For many of us it is an enjoyable part of buying tools and equipment. Seeking out the opinions of others more experienced in the field has benefited many of us here.

I'll get off my soap box now. Thanks for listening.

Paul

[dennis thompson]

John
I think it's more simple than that..."Do the right thing" .I think your opinion is simply a rationalization for doing the wrong thing
Dennis

[Tri Hoang]

John
I think it's more simple than that..."Do the right thing" .I think your opinion is simply a rationalization for doing the wrong thing
Dennis

+1 - plus retailers have no choice but to pass the costs on to consumers.

[mreza Salav]

It really iritates me when people do this (use stores as free tool rental places). It's one thing to buy one item with the intention of keeping it but finding it not satisfactory and returning it; it's another thing to buy 3 items with clear intention of returning two of them.

[Neil Brooks]

Well, this is pretty simple. Follow the vendor's return policy.

Re: costing us all more
I've read this so many times, and I've decided it's 100% wrong. How much additional business do these companies get BECAUSE if their return policies? Would anyone buy ANYTHING at Home Depot if they didn't have a no questions asked return policy? It's part of their business model.

My opnion is stop trying to second guess the way a company does business.

As a former retailer, I couldn't agree MORE.

Businesses do the math.

They all decide whether a liberal return policy MORE THAN pays for itself.

If you believe that a company's liberal return policy *must mean* that they charge higher prices, then ... as consumers in a free-market economy ... I think you may choose to shop elsewhere.

But ... the companies that I've known whose return policies were liberal ... rarely changed those policies. It seems they worked just fine.

Abuses are the exception. Businesses -- smart ones, anyway -- do NOT manage to the exceptions.

[mickey cassiba]

What if the customer bought cabinets from you and decided to return them because 'they just aren't right'?

Or maybe two out of a set.

+1 for doing what's right...'member the golden rule?

I'm just sayin'...

[Tim Null]

I used to be a retail manager in another life. You can bet that returns are factored into their overhead, just like theft is factored into the retailer. It is called "loss"......

Many companies offer that kind of return policy so that you will feel comfortable in ordering their tool. They are also confident that if you try, you will keep. But they don't really want you to send it back. They would prefer you keep the tool and they make a profit.

Returning a tool that is defective, or that doesn't do the job you want or need it to is fine. But to buy a bunch and return those you don't prefer is like grabbing a bunch of apples at the supermarket, biting all of them and only paying for the one you like best.

I agree with those that say to either keep the tools as backups or sell them. The manufacturer did nothing wrong and made a perfectly acceptable tool. Just because you prefer another brand is no reason to make the maker eat the cost.

We all will end up paying for it down the line. Those costs do not evaporate, they are designated somewhere in the balance sheet.

[Neil Brooks]

I used to be a retail manager in another life. You can bet that returns are factored into their overhead, just like theft is factored into the retailer. It is called "loss"......

And the increased sales that come from a liberal return policy are also factored in.

They're called "profit."

Let's not forget that....

[Kyle Iwamoto]

WE could also exercise our freedoms and CANCEL subscriptions to his mag. And not purchase his books. And spread the word about that.

I would support any company that gives a generous return policy, BUT as mentioned before, buying 3 WITH THE INTENT of returning 2 because you don't like them is wrong wrong wrong.....

Just my $.02.

[Frank Drew]

I like to buy three different pairs of underwear at a time; wear them all and send back two of them. Nothing wrong with the two I send back, I just needed one pair.

Or, I can buy three woodworking books (one by Chris Schwartz), read them all for a week or two (oops! spilled coffee on Chris' book), then send back the two I've gotten all I can out of (one of which is Chris').

Anybody got a problem with that? Chris?

[Very heartening to see near unanimity among the responses to this question.]

[David Cramer]

I will get slammed and that is fine, but this is my take and I worked at a Home Center years ago (Builder's Square/HQ).

If someone goes in and buys a tool and then is unhappy and returns it, such is life and that is the store policy.

If they want to buy 3 chisels, let'em. Personally, "if" I ever did that and I tried the first one and was happy, then I would keep it and return the other 2 unused and be glad that I have a product that works to my satisfaction based off the price I paid and perfomance the tool provided.

Think about it. If you buy a chisel and don't like it you'd return it anyways, correct? Comparing it to buying fruit (an apple) is totally unfair comparisonand really kinda silly.

Loss and shrinkage are worked into the price. It is a fact in retail that will never be changed. Put another way, if no one ever stole a tool from the store that I worked at, the price would NOT have dropped, not one cent. I had this discussion with department & store managers many times. Shrinkage is written off and is worked into the price.

What is the difference if someone were to go back and forth to the store and buy one chisel at a time and finally the 3rd one holds its edge and cuts the way the buyer felt it should for that price?

To purposely abuse the chisel knowing that you are going to return, that is a "whole different topic and to me is wrong". But to buy them and return the 2 of them, whether you use them or not, no biggie to me. I've been the guy called up to returns to look at the 2 hammers (estwing) that were returned after the guy bought 3! He kept the one that felt better in his hand on the job and wasn't trying to scam anyone. What's the difference if it's a chisel.

Rip me apart, but there's always another way to look at things depending on which side of the fence you're on. I've been on both.

Respectfully,

David

[John McClanahan]

Not to mention that you may never get around to returning the other two.

John

[Tim Null]

Neil,

A liberal return policy is one thing. Actually, from what I see here it is very important. It is to me too. I do not want a company that gives me a hard time when I need to return a defective item, or one that did not live up to it's billing.

But that is not what we are talking about. Call it what it is. Chris was advocating taking advantage of these liberal policies and making the manufacturer eat the costs so that you and I can sample at our leisure.

That is just not right. Take responsibility for your choices. Ever take a piece of chocolate from a box and not get what you wanted? Do you then put it back after taking a bite? Same principle.

I have purchased tools, etc that I just did not care for after a while. But I did not send them back unless they were defective or did not work properly. I just chalked it up as the cost of learning. I don't send a meal back at a restaurant just because I did not like it unless it was made poorly, undercooked, etc. I chose it from the menu, nowhere was there a gun at my head forcing me to choose that item. Free will, etc.

Too be honest, I am sick and tired of people in general not being responsible for their own actions and choices. If you have a vice, it is a disease and it is not your fault. Every unfortunate event in our lives is somebody else's fault. Of course, we could not be to blame.

(Getting of of my soapbox)

[Tim Null]

The error in your logic is that the big companies have already factored in theft and abuse of returns into their costs. Yes they have "written it off", but it has already factored into a higher price. If no one returned a single item, or if no theft occurred, then the price does not go down......so what?

Just because it does not impact the price, does that make it right? I am not saying to not return an item if you are dissatisfied, but do not abuse it.

I think we are all adult enough to know when it is ok to return an item and when it is not......or at least I hope we are.

[Frank Drew]

So, since "shrinkage" is built into a store's pricing, it's ok to steal tools?

This is not about any individual store's policies, it's about what should be our own personal policies. A store with a liberal return policy gives us the "right" to return the tool, but, as we all know (or should know), along with rights come responsibilities, and in this instance our responsibility is not to abuse the right.

But, please, for those who feel comfortable doing this, PM me for the address of the shop that has my used underwear :D.

[Tim Null]

I agree totally with you Frank.....but the used underwear thing is a bit TMI......LOL

[Frank Drew]

Tim,

An admittedly extreme hypothetical chosen for effect. (But I did know a woman who'd "buy" a party dress for one event and return it the next day.)

[Roger Myers]

I was reading a well know woodworking magazine & a reader wrote in asking for a recommendation among 3 different chisels. The magazine's response was that he should buy all 3, use them, keep the one he liked best and return the other 2. I wrote the magazine & said I thought this was dishonest & asked the magazine writer to retract his recommendation. He wrote back to me & said he was sticking to his "buy 3 & return 2" recommendation. I still think it was wrong, what do you think?
Dennis

Dennis,
I had exactly the same reaction and also thought about writing Chris. I really like Chris and PW and he has done a lot for the woodworking and hand tool world, but i think his opinion here is way way way out of line.

If I bought a chisel and was not satisfied with its performance, I would not have an issue in returning it... But to buy three different ones and select the one I like best (even if all three performed as they should) is just wrong.

I don't expect to agree with Chris or anybody else 100% of the time, but to promote an unethical practice (in my personal opinion) is just wrong. Since he reiterated his position after further consideration, it just tells me that his ethics in this situation and mine differ... that will happen. For me, I'll continue to do what most of the responses have suggested and only return products which are defective or do not meet the manufacturers or sellers representations.

I am reminded of what a salesperson at the now defunct circuit city told me when I bought a large screen tv from them shortly before the super bowl... he was commenting on the very large percentage of tvs returned the week after the game, due in large part to their unconditional satisfaction guarantee... people were buying them to watch the game, have a party, and then return them. I'm sure it is not the only thing that caused circuit city's failure, but i am also sure it did not help.

I suspect that many of the companies that keep the hand tool world as vital as it is today are operating on fairly thin margins, and I would hate to see them fail due to people taking advantage of their customer service policies.

just my $.02 Roger

[Mike Henderson]

If someone was to purchase three chisels and handle them to see how each felt in the hand, then returned two unused, and paid the freight both ways, I suppose I wouldn't have any problems with it. After all, unless there's a place to go where you can handle them, I don't know how else you'd make a choice.

And if the chisels were unused (only held in the hand), the vendor could re-sell them as new.

But if the purchaser honed the chisels and got them marked up where they couldn't be sold as new, I have a problem with the situation.

I just don't know how else a buyer is going to decide between the different brands of chisels in this Internet age.

Mike

[David Cramer]

The error in my logic Tim is your opinion, and nothing more. I was not aware that you had all the answers, but thanks for letting me know. But to use your own words, so what?

Take a deep breath, re-read my post, and then really use your noggin to think, not just react. If someone is intentionally abusing something, that is NOT the same thing and NOT what I said. Did I not say that? The price of a tool will not go down with or without theft. Compare it to what you will, but the store needs to make x amount of dollars off of a product to make a profit. Theft, aka shrinkage is already factored in and always will be.

If no one stole from my store when I worked there, the price would not drop, contrary to what you believe. If no one EVER stole anything, that is a different ballgame and is NOT realistic, because it will always happen. Argue if you like, but I've been there and talked with top people from all of the Home Centers, the price will not drop because they had less theft for 2 years in a row, believe it or not Tim.

Thanks for showing me the error in my thinking. I've been in the business world for quite some time now since my Home Center days in the 90's and you really taught me quite a lesson today that college and the "real world" didn't...........or maybe I taught you something? Nah:)!

Respectfully,

David

[Sean Nagle]

But if the purchaser honed the chisels and got them marked up where they couldn't be sold as new, I have a problem with the situation.

Getting marked up is no good, but honing them [properly] is actually adding value to the original ;) Doesn't Woodcraft actually charge you for honing chisels before shipping them to you?

[dennis thompson]

When I posted this originally I purposely did not name the magazine nor the writer from the magazine. Now that his name has been mentioned let me say that I think Chris Schwarz is an excellent woodworker, writer and editor & I can only hope to be as good some day.(In my heart I know I never will be) I read his books & magazines & watch his DVD's and plan to continue to do so. When I email him he responds quickly & thoughtfully. We disagree on this point, we're big boys & last I looked disagreement was allowed here.
Dennis

[Tim Null]

David,

What I said was that theft and returns are factored into the equation. Not on a case by case or even year by year basis, but as a constant that will always be there. Does that make it right?

Theft is dealt with on the retailer level. Returns are mostly to the manufacturer, unless the store eats it and does not pass it back to the manufacturer. At the 4 store company I worked at, most returns were given credit by the manufacturer due to our large buying power. I imagine a huge chain has even more leverage.

My point was not that the costs would fluctuate due to higher or lower theft/return rates, but that they are factored in due to human nature. People will steal and be less than honest in their return practices. Companies know that and factor in those costs. Still costs you and me more for these transgressions. Still doesn't make them right.

At what point in my post did I claim to have all of the answers? I have two teenage daughters who will testify under oath that I have almost none.....LOL

If I offended you I apologize. Was not my intent. We can have a difference of opinion. You are right, my statements are my opinion. Based on my experience and education.

I took your advice. After several deep breaths, bordering upon hyperventilating.......:D I re-read your post. And mine. My point was that the whole issue was that the big companies already take "loss" into account, but that does not make it right to return items when there is no fault of the retailer or manufacturer.

Simply because the company will take it back does not mean it should. As you very well know, from your retail days, sometimes you do things for the customer when you know they are wrong, lying, etc. That is because negative publicity is the worst of all.

Look at all of the negative posts about less than generous return policies here. Unless a manufacturer takes anything back for any and all reasons, they are lambasted.

I totally agree to return a chisel if it is not holding an edge. Or otherwise not functioning in a satisfactory manner. But to buy a bunch of chisels and hone and sharpen them, and then return them simply due to factors that do not impact the actual performance still strikes me as not right.

Maybe it is my experience in retail, seeing abuses of returns that makes me feel this way.

Once again, did not mean to offend you or insult your intelligence or experience. If you ever hit the West Coast I would buy you a beer and listen to a few retail stories.

[David DeCristoforo]

Interesting question. What if I bought one chisel, decided I did not like it and sent it back? No issue there, right? Then I bought a second one, did not like that one either and sent it back also. Still good? Then I got lucky on the third one and kept it. Now the vendor has had to do all the paperwork and soak the cost of shipping several times instead of just once. So is that better for them? And I have had to deal with waiting for shipments three times instead of just once and had to make sure that my money was refunded properly, etc. So it has taken me a pretty long time to get a chisel I liked. I am not trying to condone the idea of doing something like buying a tool, using it for a specific task and then sending it back and demanding a refund. Obviously that would be at least unethical. I'm just head scratching a bit because the original scenario could be seen as simply a more efficient way to go. There is a thread discussing the quality of Great Lakes castors. What if you read that and were left wondering if you should buy the GL house brand or the more expensive "Footmaster" brand. How are you to know until you get the product in your hand if it is going to be what you were led to expect?

[Randall Clark]

When you go to Home De-Lowe's or call a mail order woodworking supply, before you purchase, try telling them exactly what you have planned.

"I want to buy three chisels, and I want you to understand my plans before I buy/order them: I am going to use all three and return all but the one I like the best expecting a full refund."

What would they say?

Buy three, use three, return three? I couldn't do it unless there was a defect that made the chisel unusable.

[Gary Breckenridge]

I thought I knew all the woodworking magazines. :cool: Where can I sign up for a subscription to Weasel Woodworking ?

[dennis thompson]

To put it in woodworking terms Randall hit the nail right on the head
Dennis

[John Coloccia]

So everyone here buys the first car they take for a test drive at the dealership because they've wasted the salesman's time otherwise? Bah. That's part of their business model, and so is this. Allowing liberal returns like this makes them money, not the other way around.

We're not talking about abusing the product and then returning it. We're not talking about using the product on three projects and then returning it.

But someone else had a good idea (though they were being sarcastic, not serious): if you feel uncomfortable doing this, just ASK them if they mind. For example, I've bought 3 guitar amplifiers at the same time so that I could take them home for a few days, and play them with all my equipment and guitars, for extended periods of time, and then returned two. Wasn't my idea. It was THEIR idea.

Seriously...just ask them, and put all this righteous indignation to bed, and then report back what they say.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Seriously...just ask them, and put all this righteous indignation to bed..."

Bingo

[Vince Shriver]

A woman bought a dress from an upscale store, then three days later returned it for a refund (to which the store acquiesced). The store then resold the dress which was returned yet again with a complaint that it was the source of a skin rash. Upon some investigation, it was found that the first sale went to a woman who used the garment for her mother who was the guest of honor at a funeral visitation. Ya just never know.

[Joe Leigh]

The price of a tool will not go down with or without theft. Compare it to what you will, but the store needs to make x amount of dollars off of a product to make a profit. Theft, aka shrinkage is already factored in and always will be.


Not to single out your post David, as there are several similar ones, but just as an illustration to my question;
What does the store's bottom line have to do with right and wrong? A wrong becomes right if we can rationalize it on the ledger sheet?.
The INTENT, as portrayed in the original post, is dishonest and deceitful. That makes the doer dishonorable. No wiggle room.

[Van Huskey]

Simple to me, follow the return policy of the manufacturer and/or vendor. People recommend buying Festool all the time due to their use it/return it policy. If you use the policy correctly then there is NOTHING wrong with returning the item. In the end I personally would buy one at a time until I was happy, again tacking advantage of the return policy but no attempt to abuse it.

[Neil Brooks]

The INTENT, as portrayed in the original post, is dishonest and deceitful. That makes the doer dishonorable. No wiggle room.

I'm a big believer that clarity on definitions helps to facilitate clear dialogue.

So ... in that spirit ... I offer this (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dogmatic).

[Nathan Callender]

So, would anyone order 3 chisels, grind and sharp them to see how well they take an edge (obviously, a very important feature in a chisel) and then return the ones you did not like? Or how about buying a dovetail saw and taking out any set in the teeth?

I don't see the problem in ordering a bunch of stuff and evaluating in person and shipping back the items you don't like, but once you use it, it's yours unless it's defective. Now, if it's a tool that isn't effected during use, and the vendor doesn't mind the testing (like festool), that's different.

[Bill Pitz]

I bought six brand new Empire squares at HD the other morning, and returned the five that weren't square. I returned them in exactly the condition in which I bought them, the store can resell them at full price. Had the label said 'Empire Premium Aluminum UnSquare', I might have felt compelled to keep them. ;)

[Dave Sharpe]

I agree that buying tools intending to return them is unethical (Can anyone tell me the difference between unethical and immoral?). Even if a company's policy allows such behavior, it still adds to the cost that all of us have to pay.

Along these lines, I once attended a Christening/Baptism of two toddlers who were to be Christened in an outdoor ceremony wearing brand new pristine white suits. These suits were so white it hurt the eyes to look at them! The mother instructed her friend who was charged with dressing the kids to only put these suits on just prior to the ceremony and "Don't let them get a speck on them - We're returning the suits tomorrow!" I've always wondered if that somehow negates the whole concept of the Christening......

[Michael O'Sullivan]

I agree that buying tools intending to return them is unethical (Can anyone tell me the difference between unethical and immoral?). Even if a company's policy allows such behavior, it still adds to the cost that all of us have to pay.

Along these lines, I once attended a Christening/Baptism of two toddlers who were to be Christened in an outdoor ceremony wearing brand new pristine white suits. These suits were so white it hurt the eyes to look at them! The mother instructed her friend who was charged with dressing the kids to only put these suits on just prior to the ceremony and "Don't let them get a speck on them - We're returning the suits tomorrow!" I've always wondered if that somehow negates the whole concept of the Christening......

The point that a lot of the people are missing is that the hypothetical chisel purchaser is giving each of the three a fair shot to be chosen -- it is unknown going in which two are going to be returned. To me, that is very different from buying a tool for a 1-off project, using it for that project, and then returning it. In that case (or the special occasion clothes) the chance of return is 100%.

Also, remember that many of the high-end manufacturers we are talking about maintain very low "brick and mortar" retail presences. This saves them a tremendous amount of money. If they had B&M stores, you could go in and test one of the chisels out. However, since they do not, it seems a bit unfair to require people to make their decisions sight unseen.

Regarding the books, it is more like the difference between going to Borders, flipping through three books on, say, building kitchen cabinets, and then buying the one you like. I don't see the difference between doing that and ordering the same three books from Amazon, browsing each of them , and sending one or two (or all three, for that matter) back. In fact, the least ethical move, IMO, is to flip through the book at Borders, and then buy it on-line for a cheaper price.