OK to polish sides of a new dovetail saw?

[Dale Sautter]

Hi all,

Recently picked up a Veritas dovetail saw from a local retailer that used it as as their "display model" (14 ppi and a little used). I mainly work with thinner stock so was hoping to pick up the 20 ppi version, but on impulse, grabbed it because it was what they had in the store. I don't know how long they had it in display/trial mode so I don't know how sharp it should be. I'm a novice, but know sharp... it rattles a tad when first starting the cut, so it may be technique on my part, and perhaps a tad dull from use.

My plan:

1) file the first inch to inch and a quarter @20 ppi, then touch up the remaining, leaving it at 14 ppi

2) use some 1000 grit or so to polish the sides a bit thinking shiny would be easier to push.

Well, maybe I should do number two first... if it would be worth the step... what think ye?

[Steve Dallas]

Hi all,

Recently picked up a Veritas dovetail saw from a local retailer that used it as as their "display model" (14 ppi and a little used). I mainly work with thinner stock so was hoping to pick up the 20 ppi version, but on impulse, grabbed it because it was what they had in the store. I don't know how long they had it in display/trial mode so I don't know how sharp it should be. I'm a novice, but know sharp... it rattles a tad when first starting the cut, so it may be technique on my part, and perhaps a tad dull from use.

My plan:

1) file the first inch to inch and a quarter @20 ppi, then touch up the remaining, leaving it at 14 ppi

2) use some 1000 grit or so to polish the sides a bit thinking shiny would be easier to push.

Well, maybe I should do number two first... if it would be worth the step... what think ye?

If the saw is dull then sharpen it. Otherwise saw is fit for service, as-is. Go saw some dovetails. Have fun.

[Zach Dillinger]

Dale,

I certainly don't think you'll hurt anything, as long as you keep the polishing medium away from the teeth. I'd be careful doing it, you don't want to take the set out of the saw.

I prefer a shiny dovetail saw, as I think it makes it easier to verify when you are sawing square to the face of the board. You can look in the plate at the reflection and, if it lines up with the edge of the board, you must be sawing straight. I find it handy but not necessary.

Bottom line: your saw, your decision. Let us know how it turns out!

Best,

Zach

[Joe Cunningham]

I don't find my veritas DT saw hard to push, but initially had the same 'problem' as you with starting the cut (the rattle). It was my technique--I was moving from a dozuki to a western saw for the first time. The problem seems to have gone away the better my technique has gotten.

Also a little paraffin wax on the plate of the saw makes it glide like buttah.

[george wilson]

I very much doubt,unless the saw is really rusted rough,that you'd see much difference in pushing it.

There is an advantage to a shiny saw,though: You can see the reflection from the edge of the wood in it. If the reflection of the edge is a straight line,you are sawing square.

I'd start with 600 grit if you want to polish it. 1000 is going to get you nowhere.You will find that it takes a GREAT deal of work to even remove 1/000". If there is a pit or 2,you may never get rid of it.

600 grit,if you finish up your sanding with it by using it dry,will wear down and leave a very smooth surface. Then,you could go finer.

I must admit,I cannot recount the many hundreds of hours I have spent doing similar things when I was young. Really,I think it is more of an obsession than anything. It will make you feel that the saw is more "yours". Also,it will train you to be persistent.

After re-reading your post,I don't think the saw is rusty,is it?

[Jonathan McCullough]

Your new saw probably doesn't need to be sanded. Get some paraffin wax at the grocery, hardware, or drugstore. Or a candle. Rub it on the sides wherever it's likely to rub up against the wood. It'll make the saw go through much easier. Put it on the soles of your planes, too.

[Pedder Petersen]

My plan:

1) file the first inch to inch and a quarter @20 ppi, then touch up the remaining, leaving it at 14 ppi

Are you aware that you will have to remove the hole teeth to file a new pitch? Bad idea. Better let the first teeth a little flat after jointing. That makes starting a lot easier.




2) use some 1000 grit or so to polish the sides a bit thinking shiny would be easier to push.

Better to take soft cloth and some polish for cars. Works a thread.

[Casey Gooding]

Dovetail saws vary widely in how easy they are to start. Once you get used to it, you'll have no trouble. I also agree with using paraffin wax. Works great.

[Tri Hoang]

Unless you are really experience with sharpening & cutting new saw teeth, I'd not recommend changing the tpi. I think the progressive tpi configuration is over hyped. At 14 tpi you should be able to start the saw pretty smoothly with some practice. Once you master it you can pretty much start with any saw, including the 5-1/2 tpi rip panel saws.

[Dale Sautter]

First, thanks to everyone! This really is a nice spot on the web.


If the saw is dull then sharpen it. Otherwise saw is fit for service, as-is. Go saw some dovetails. Have fun.

I hear you... :)



I prefer a shiny dovetail saw, as I think it makes it easier to verify when you are sawing square to the face of the board. You can look in the plate at the reflection and, if it lines up with the edge of the board, you must be sawing straight. I find it handy but not necessary.

Bottom line: your saw, your decision. Let us know how it turns out!


Good tip on the reflection, thanks. I'll try to post a pic or two when I'm finished.



I don't find my veritas DT saw hard to push, but initially had the same 'problem' as you with starting the cut (the rattle). It was my technique--I was moving from a dozuki to a western saw for the first time. The problem seems to have gone away the better my technique has gotten.

Also a little paraffin wax on the plate of the saw makes it glide like buttah.


I ran across a video on youtube by Rob Cossman (sp) where he said to pinch the board, rest the saw against the pinch, then with a light touch - cut lightly, just dragging the saw until a groove is started before applying pressure for the remainder of the cut. I did this and it worked great with some western maple, but back to the rattles with bubinga or purpleheart. Thanks for the tip on using paraffin. Guess it's not the same as candle wax? I did use Renaissance on the sides before hand.



There is an advantage to a shiny saw,though: You can see the reflection from the edge of the wood in it. If the reflection of the edge is a straight line,you are sawing square.

I'd start with 600 grit if you want to polish it. 1000 is going to get you nowhere.You will find that it takes a GREAT deal of work to even remove 1/000". If there is a pit or 2,you may never get rid of it.

600 grit,if you finish up your sanding with it by using it dry,will wear down and leave a very smooth surface. Then,you could go finer.

I must admit,I cannot recount the many hundreds of hours I have spent doing similar things when I was young. Really,I think it is more of an obsession than anything. It will make you feel that the saw is more "yours". Also,it will train you to be persistent.


Ya, shiny is sounding good visually. You know, it is pretty smooth right out of the box, guessing maybe 300-400 grit, maybe more... don't know. Not getting a good reflection like I'm sure it's capable of though. I've put together a motorized scary sharp system for running through the grits so it won't take too long to polish it up nice. re: hundreds of hours/obsession... yep, I agree, but I'm not cured of it... natural-born-tweaker, just coz ya can kinda thing... ;)



Your new saw probably doesn't need to be sanded. Get some paraffin wax at the grocery, hardware, or drugstore. Or a candle. Rub it on the sides wherever it's likely to rub up against the wood. It'll make the saw go through much easier. Put it on the soles of your planes, too.


Thanks, I'll get some paraffin.



Are you aware that you will have to remove the hole teeth to file a new pitch? Bad idea. Better let the first teeth a little flat after jointing. That makes starting a lot easier.

Better to take soft cloth and some polish for cars. Works a thread.


Thanks, I need to learn how to maintain the tool anyway, and don't mind a little more work at the outset, hoping it will be worth it in the long run.



Dovetail saws vary widely in how easy they are to start. Once you get used to it, you'll have no trouble. I also agree with using paraffin wax. Works great.


Oh brother, I can see where this is going... gonna need more saws... thanks :)



Unless you are really experience with sharpening & cutting new saw teeth, I'd not recommend changing the tpi. I think the progressive tpi configuration is over hyped. At 14 tpi you should be able to start the saw pretty smoothly with some practice. Once you master it you can pretty much start with any saw, including the 5-1/2 tpi rip panel saws.


How else will I gain experience with sharpening unless I practice sharpening and cutting? I'm mostly using thin stock 1/4" - 3/8" for drawers and small boxes so I think that the 20 tpi version would have been a better choice for me if I had it to do over again. Lemonade from lemons for now... It does make sense what you say about getting used to a 14 tpi blade, skill-set-wise... thanks.

[Jim Koepke]

Dale,

Welcome to the wonderful world of sojourning through saw soliloquies.

Sorry, couldn't help my self.

If you do have an interest in exploring the workings of saw tooth pitch and geometries it might be to your benefit to seek out inexpensive saws from yard and garage sales. Then you can change the tooth per inch count and the rake with cheap saws and build skill until you know exactly what you want to do with the more expensive saw.

One of the things to check on your saw is that the teeth may have been reset after they left the maker. I have run into a few people who believe a saw set is a saw sharpener. Too much set and a saw will tend to rattle in the kerf.

A caliper can tell if this is the case. If you do not have a caliper, do you have a set of feeler gauges?

With a little care with feeler gauges, you can measure the kerf and the saw plate. I do not recall the recommended set on a saw, but I think it is about 0.003" per side for a total of approximately 0.006" total. On the few saws that I have sharpened, I only have set the teeth if the saw binds. Then I always set as little as possible and repeat the process until the saw stops binding if necessary.

Well, I should say on all but the first one. I set that one too much and it rattles enough to wake the neighbors.

My other thought is you are talking about a back saw which is less likely to rattle because of the back.

You also mention on the start of the cut. If it is rattling because of too much set, it will be all the way through the cut.

Do you mean it is "bouncing" at the start of the cut?

There are a few different techniques for starting a cut. Everyone has to find what works best for them. If the front of the saw facing down and being started on the far side of the piece being cut it is likely to grab, bounce or make a rattle noise.

Some people start with the saw on the near side with the front angled upward.

I tend to start with the saw flat on the work and almost lifting it off the work so there is very little pressure where the blade is meeting the wood. I will make quick but smooth back and forth movements of the saw to start a kerf. Often I am blowing on the wood to remove the sawdust so I can keep an eye on the line.

Someone else mentioned "the essential guide to saw tooth design" at Tools for working wood dot com. This is an invaluable bit of information for someone wanting to know a bit more about saw teeth and saw tooth design.

Hope some of this helps.

jim

[Sam Takeuchi]

I think you are trying to do everything from no experience. You need to start with a focus I think. Maybe first to learn how to use your saw and then perhaps move onto sharpening and/or cutting new teeth. Trying to cut new teeth without understanding teeth geometry or how good saw should cut, or even more fundamentally, what kind of cut you look for in a saw, most likely you'll end up with mediocre performing saw with a lot of wasted saw blade.

14tpi isn't a problem cutting 1/4" or even thinner. I use Veritas 14tpi dovetail saw to cut 1/32" thick rosette slices and it works fine. Even if you get a 20tpi saw, it's not automatically going to make it everything easy. Just like anything else, you have to learn to use that particular saw.

Post a pic of your saw. Maybe something was done to it that we don't know about.

[Derek Cohen]

Dale, you have had some solid advice here.

I will be blunt. You lack experience to diagnose the fault. I very much doubt that they is a problem with the saw (although adding wax to the steel will help), and I expect that the issue is really about technique.

The Veritas saws (both 14 and 20 tpi) have a 14 degree rake, which translates into a saw that should be very easy to start.

You could read this review I wrote on the 20 tpi Veritas as it explains what makes up a dovetail saw, and what affects it in use: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw.html

The single best method of making the start easier is to change the effective rake angle of the teeth. You do NOT need to refile them for them - just alter the angle at which you hold the saw.

Point the saw up when you cut ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m654f2955.jpg

I think that you will be pleasantly surprised :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John Coloccia]

re: starting

I don't pinch he wood. I just put my thumb down. Regardless, though, I don't think that makes a difference. Can you put the saw against your pinch and push it back and forth is a sawing motion without touching the wood, consistently? If you can, then you should be able to gradually lower it until it's just kissing the wood. When you just kiss the wood is the feeling you have to remember. That's a about what the first starting stroke should feel like. It's all about right hand control, and it does take a little getting used to. It feels funny because we always think of sawing as having to put pressure downward for it to work, mostly because we all grew up with terrible saws. Especially with dovetails saws, you're never really pushing down, and if we are it's very little (and the saw is cutting VERY fast at this point). The weight of the saw will cut just fine. In fact, we're lifting up quite a bit at the start, and that's a strange feeling.

The way I broke myself of my bad starting habits was this: I covered the end of a board with pencil. Then I sat there and went from one end of the board to the other with the goal of removing the pencil markings without touching the wood. It's darn near impossible, but that's not the point. Boy, am I ever good at starting whatever saw anyone plunks down in front of me now!

[Jim Koepke]

re: starting

[snip]

The way I broke myself of my bad starting habits was this: I covered the end of a board with pencil. Then I sat there and went from one end of the board to the other with the goal of removing the pencil markings without touching the wood. It's darn near impossible, but that's not the point. Boy, am I ever good at starting whatever saw anyone plunks down in front of me now!

Now that sounds like a good exercise to try.

One I do for testing the tracking of a saw after sharpening is to saw two kerfs a little less than an 1/8" apart. Then flip the board and saw down between the kerfs. If the saw isn't tracking strait, it will be easily seen.

jim

[Joe Cunningham]

That does sound like a good exercise, thanks! I will try it tonight with my new LN tenon saw.

[Tony Shea]

The way I broke myself of my bad starting habits was this: I covered the end of a board with pencil. Then I sat there and went from one end of the board to the other with the goal of removing the pencil markings without touching the wood. It's darn near impossible, but that's not the point. Boy, am I ever good at starting whatever saw anyone plunks down in front of me now!


I guess I don't completely understand what is meant by this. You covered the edge of the board with pencil marks and tried to saw just the graphite sitting on top of the end grain? If that's the case then I would think it's more than damn near impossible, I would think it would be completely impossible. But I understand the goal I think, using an extremely light touch is the feel you want?

[John Coloccia]

I guess I don't completely understand what is meant by this. You covered the edge of the board with pencil marks and tried to saw just the graphite sitting on top of the end grain? If that's the case then I would think it's more than damn near impossible, I would think it would be completely impossible. But I understand the goal I think, using an extremely light touch is the feel you want?

You got it. Theoretically, I think you could do it, since I can get the marks off with an eraser, but no, I've never successfully gotten them off without taking a little wood too. The nice thing about the exercise is before you know it, you're going back and forth with no catches without even thinking about it, and then the challenge becomes ridiculous amounts of precision. Then when you go to cut something for real, a grabbing isn't even a possibility anymore. You're focused 100% on the cut.