cabinet saws and fences

[dale rex]

This is my first post here as a new member...... so please be kind.....lol. I have been woodworking for 15 years as a hobby and have taken it to a professional level now. It is time to upgrade my contractors saw to a cabinet saw. GEEZ, the brands and features are very tempting and confusing. My first inclination was to buy the best and most expensive saw out there, so I looked at Powermatic and General. I just dont want spend that much money.Is there any valid reason(except a good tool gloat)to spend that much on a saw when the old standby(Delta Unisaw)can most likely provide me with a lifetime of excellent results? Also, I am torn between the Unifence and the Biesemeyer fence. I am looking for some resonable advice on these issues and hope all of you here can help me with my decision.... thanks all

[Joe Scarfo]

If I were to do this over again, I'd still buy new. If I was feeling rich, I'd be like the bee attracted to that honey gold PM66.... even though that shine would quickly disappear from that shiny top.

I did go w/a new Unisaw and haven't looked back.

I did finally locate a good deal on a used unisaw ($150) that's worth fixing up.
However you need something quickly to earn income so a new one is the best route.

Good luck w/ your choice

Joe.... whose lucky enough to still be in Tampa but the draw to Wisconsin is getting stronger. If anyone knows anyone w/ a race car trailer for sale.. let me know! I'll need it to haul/store the shop until the house is bought or built

[Frank Pellow]

Dale, welcome to Saw Mill Creek!

I can't give you any advise, because I am in the market for a cabinet saw myself. I will be interested in what you eventually decide to purchase.

[Pat Salter]

I'm a unisaw guy only because it's what I've used the most. I've had a lot of success with them on the job and finally bought a used one for home. As far as fences go....the unifence would be my choice for the same reason. it's what I've used the most ;) . It has features that I like that the others don't.

The biggest question should be the motor. Can you use 220? If you have 220 in your shop get your new saw to match. Nothing will be more disapointing then having a new saw with only 110 and watching the blade slow down because you don't have enough power for that 4X8 sheet of 3/4" plywood. Whatever brand you go with, go with the most power.

P.S. welcome aboard. :D

[Ted Harris]

This is my first post here as a new member...... so please be kind.....lol. I have been woodworking for 15 years as a hobby and have taken it to a professional level now. It is time to upgrade my contractors saw to a cabinet saw. GEEZ, the brands and features are very tempting and confusing. My first inclination was to buy the best and most expensive saw out there, so I looked at Powermatic and General. I just dont want spend that much money.Is there any valid reason(except a good tool gloat)to spend that much on a saw when the old standby(Delta Unisaw)can most likely provide me with a lifetime of excellent results?
Are saving your body parts in case of an accident reason enough? :eek:
Sawstop cabinet saw (http://www.sawstop.com) :cool:

[Charlie Plesums]

If you are planning to build a business with employees, etc., then I cannot comment. But I am planning to retire to full time woodworking soon, and am going to upgrade my contractor saw (and jointer and planer, etc) to a sliding table euro combo machine.

I find I can make great cuts with the contractor saw, but spend a LOT of time on each cut to get the precision - such as a shallow cut in plywood to avoid tear out on the bottom followed by a second cut with the blade high to avoid tear out on the top. A double cut like that better be exact. The precision of the european saws, the scoring blade, the safety of the equipment, the space saving, etc., seems worthwhile in a one-man shop.

[Tyler Howell]

Welcome Dale!

Great place to hang out. One thing there is no shortage of here and that is opinions.
I'd have to say if Power Matic and General is as far as you have gone, Keep looking before you decide. There is much more out there and much bigger price tags. I'm a new 5 hp PM66 owner and want for nothing more in a fine machine. I've yet to reach the limits of its abilities. Only complaint was they sent the wrong instruction manual.
The Uni has been doing it well a long time! I tried them both side by side and believe me it wasn't the paint job that pushed me ove to PM.
Although a close second Jet was my next choice.
Shop and read the reviews. Buy something that will suit your style of work. Something that I have proven is that you usually get what you pay for

[sascha gast]

another vote for the PM66. i got mine 3 weeks ago and it's awesome. i also did compare the uni with the PM66 and i went for beef. necessary?? probably not, but it felt just way too nice.
went to the costa mesa show today and played with the euro saws, just not my cup of tea, but then again, i don't use sheetgood that much, i like working with exotic hardwoods, so even though they slide real nice, even if i had the space, i'd always would have a PM66 close by to do the smaller work, like joinery and such.

sascha

[Brian Hale]

Hi Dale, Welcome to the creek!!

How close are you to York PA? It would be worth the time to stop by Wilke Machinery and check out what they have on the floor. They sell General (not General International) and Bridgewood table saws but also have the Delta, Powermatic and Bridgewood saws on the floor with the cast iron removed for comparison (unless they have them out at a show). Lets you get a good look at how the saws are made and how they attach the top to the cabinet. Quite educational. I went with the Bridgewood BW10LTS left tilt saw.

Pics...... Green is the Bridgewood BW10LTS, Gold is the Powermatic 66

Brian

[Greg Ladd]

Dale,

Take a good hard look at the General models. The 350 is right tilt and the 650 is left tilt.

I have owned an older model 1958 vintage Unisaw that was considerably better built than the ones being sold today. I now have a General 350 that I have had for around 4 years now. It is even better made than the older Unisaw I had. The internal castings are heavier as well as just being better finished overall. The trunnions are the longer style similar to the ones in the Bridgewood shown above rather than the shorter ones on the PM.

While this is certainly a personal opinion, and there have been some magazine reviews that agree, I feel that the General saws are the best value for the dollar when you consider the mass of the castings and the overall quality of the workmanship. The paint job on the cabinet of my saw is better than that on some automobiles on the road!

I must admit that the PM 66 was the one I coveted when I bought my General, mainly due to being left tilt. However, I was able to get a good deal on my General 350 and that swayed me. If I were to do it over again I would buy the General 650 in a heartbeat and save a few dollars over the PM 66 as a bonus.

On a side note, the General 350 and 650 use a Biesemeyer clone that is virtually an exact copy of the original. They have permission from Bies to use the design. I had a Bies on the Unisaw and think the General may be a little beefier.

All in all, they are all good saws and would all serve you well. General isn't a well marketed as Delta and PM. It is however a great product. As a matter of fact, I can't recall ever reading or hearing of someone ever being unhappy with a General cabinet saw.
Hope this helps - Greg

[Frank Pellow]

Thats Greg, it helps me. Right now, the General 350 (I prefer right tilt) is at the top of my list for my cabinet saw purchase. I hope to be able to find a used one and I am not in a big hurry so I might be lucky.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dale....Welcome to the 'Creek! You've probably asked the one question that'll get the most replies! The TS is a very important and most often used tool.....Left tilt vs Right tilt......Look at various manufacturers....try to see them in person....make a written list of your personal likes and dislikes of each model and manufacturer, the advantages and disadvantages of each....then weigh the price vs useage.....good luck with your decision! :confused:

Again.....Welcome to the 'Creek! :)
P.S. Beware the Photo Cops....when you buy the new saw...they (Tyler and Chis Padilla) will require a photo of same or they'll hound you to death. Every once in a while you can sneak a gloat in without photos but only if they are on a donut run. :rolleyes: :D

[Tim Morton]

One thing to keep in mind is that whatever saw you pick you will be VERY happy with it. I have read hundreds and hundreds of TS posts and have yet to read anyone that does not like his cabinet saw. They are all good saws, most would agre that the PM66 is the king of saws, but the bridgewood and general are both right there. Delta makes a great saw but with all you read lately about the new stuff I would not have that one in my top 3 or 4 ..I would add the grizz to the other 3 i mentioned. I'm cost limited so i would take the Grizz.

[dale rex]

now , some of you have raised another question for me.....left or right tilt? The only advantage I can see to left tilt is for bevel ripping. Why cant bevels be cut on a right tilt saw with the fence to the left of the blade? I realize that there is limited space on the left, but how many times do you bevel rip a wide piece? Please help........:confused:

[Frank Pellow]

now , some of you have raised another question for me.....left or right tilt? The only advantage I can see to left tilt is for bevel ripping. Why cant bevels be cut on a right tilt saw with the fence to the left of the blade? I realize that there is limited space on the left, but how many times do you bevel rip a wide piece? Please help........:confused:

Dale, this issue has been discussed A LOT here. For starters, look at the thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13489&highlight=left

By the way, I agree with you about the bevel ripping.

[Ken Garlock]

I took delivery on my 10LTS in September. I originally started thinking about the "scratch & dent" Powermatic 66 at General Industrial Supply. Then I got to looking around and found that the B/W 10LTS was just as good at half the price. It is heavy, approx. 470 lbs., and built like the proverbial brick outhouse. The only thing I can think of "bad" about it is that it has a Taiwan motor. At this point in time I will trust the Wilke people on their motor selection since I know that they replace other import tool motors that they don't believe to be up to snuff.

Another reason I chose the 10LTS is the reputation Wilke has for good customer service, I have never heard a negative comment about them. :)

[Ted Shrader]

Dale -

First, welcome to the Creek! A great place to hang out.

The same question you are raising has been addressed multiple times. Just do a search and you will find lots of threads and opinions. My advice to you is to do just that.

Then, after you have read and gathered data, it will be easier for you to make a decision. There are compromises all along the way in fit, finish, flatness of the table, parallelism of the miter slots (and consistent width), beefiness of the trunion, motor size, and on and on. Then there is the right/left tilt choice. What it comes down to, for the most part, is personal preference. What are you willing to live with and do to get it set up square- all cabinet saws will last a good, long time.

Fences - the same argument can be made, but on a more limited scale. The Unifence has some interesting features, but they are not that important to me - they might be to you. Bottom line - is the fence easily adjustable, easily removable from the saw and does it stay parallel to the blade? After that it is personel choice.

If you are able, I recommend you put your hands on some of the contenders. Since you are in Pennsylvania, you might make a road trip to York and visit Wilke Machinery as Brian said. You are fortunate enough to have a lot of other dealers with different brands in the general area also.

Again, welcome to the Creek. An educated consumer is a good consumer. Oh - and post some pictures when you decide :) :) otherwise the picture police will have to ticket you :) :)

Regards,
Ted

ps 3HP Powermatic 66, 50" PM (Bies clone) style fence with Brett Guard over arm blade guard. No splitter yet.

[David LaRue]

Another vote for the PM66 I have had mine for a couple of years now. I upgraded from a contractor saw. I can't commment on the other saws except to say you won't we sorry about going gold. Here is a my say and a review of the overarm guard.

Saw:

http://home.comcast.net/~mywoodshop/html/table_saw.html

Guard:

http://home.comcast.net/~mywoodshop/html/overarm_guard.html

[Greg Ladd]

Dale,
Your comment about bevel ripping is exactly why left or right tilt is an option. Bevel ripping with the workpiece between the blade and the fence can increase the possibility of a kickback. With the off-cut to the left of the blade, this possibility is eliminated. Both of these statements assume a properly tuned saw, of course.

Now, that doesn't mean the right cut saw is inherently unsafe. It does, however, require a little more planning to make these cuts safely on a right-tilt saw. Given the overwhelming number of right-tilt saws in existence, it obviously can be done, with push sticks and fingerboards; etc.

All that being said, if I were to buy a new saw today, I think I would definitely get a lefty just so the potential problem were eliminated entirely.

Greg

[Ed Falis]

You can't go wrong with the General 350/650, depending on your tilt preferences. I got the Bridgewood in Jan '03 and haven't looked back. The saw is a great value for the price.

- Ed

[Norman Hitt]

now , some of you have raised another question for me.....left or right tilt? The only advantage I can see to left tilt is for bevel ripping. Why cant bevels be cut on a right tilt saw with the fence to the left of the blade? I realize that there is limited space on the left, but how many times do you bevel rip a wide piece? Please help........:confused:
-----------000--------------
Dale, I am a devoted Left Tilt man myself, but get what you are Used To, and Comfortable with using. That said, there are a couple of points I would make you aware of for your safety and accuracy If you do go with a right tilt.

1. Not all fences have both sides of the fence exactly parallel to each other, so be sure to check that before you buy your saw to keep from having to "Tweak" it when you get it home. (that will be important if you move the fence to the left side for a bevel cut)

2. Some folks like their fence adjusted so it is exactly parallel to the Blade, (as I do), however, some folks like the fence to be adjusted so it opens up from the blade slightly, toward the back of the saw. If you set yours by the second method, Do Remember that you will have to readjust it when you move it to the left side of the blade for a bevel cut, or it will pinch the wood into the blade and cause kickback, then you will also need to readjust it when you move it back to the right side again.

Another tip, in case you go with a left tilt saw, is that some folks make a big deal about the fence tape scale not reading right when using dado blades on a left tilt saw. This is not a big deal. All you have to do is install the dado blades, then move the fence up just touching the dado blade, and lock it, then stick a piece of masking tape across the cursor plate so one edge of the tape is lined up over the "Zero Mark" on the tape scale, and then use that edge as the temporary cursor line while using the dado, and remove the tape when you take the dado blade out again.

Hope these tips help, whichever type you get.

PS: I've had my PM-66 for nearly 15 years and love it. I had a choice of fences when I bought it, so I chose the Bies Commercial and wouldn't trade it either.

[Tom Peterson]

Dale,
I went round and round and received a great deal of advice and feedback from the folks on the creek. I purchased my Unisaw from Woodworkers Supply through a special first time buyer program that they offered. It was 10% off and Delta had free shipping(to my door with liftgate service). Search the threads, and you can find the link if it is still valid. Some day I will post be late gloat. Do to an injury, work, remodeling I just finally cranked it up a month ago. It sat idle since April. (very embarassed)

PS here was the link
http://www.woodworker.com/newcustomer2004

[Rick Bruce]

Hi Dale! I'm a new member also, But last month found a great deal on a used 5HP single phase,5 y/o Unisaw, with both fences and a Biesemeyer T-square over the arm blade guard system at an auction. the whole system being in very good cond. So if you havent bought yet, this might be a good option to look at if you live in an aera where auctions are frequent. I lucked out and found this set-up for $550 plus auction fees and tax. In answer to your question on the fences,both are great,the Unisaw has some nice flexability to be used in different ways by turning the fence body. The Biesemeyer is a SHERMAN TANK! If it is in the budget, it is not a bad way to go.
There are some deals out there, Good luck on your search,Rick
This is my first post here as a new member...... so please be kind.....lol. I have been woodworking for 15 years as a hobby and have taken it to a professional level now. It is time to upgrade my contractors saw to a cabinet saw. GEEZ, the brands and features are very tempting and confusing. My first inclination was to buy the best and most expensive saw out there, so I looked at Powermatic and General. I just dont want spend that much money.Is there any valid reason(except a good tool gloat)to spend that much on a saw when the old standby(Delta Unisaw)can most likely provide me with a lifetime of excellent results? Also, I am torn between the Unifence and the Biesemeyer fence. I am looking for some resonable advice on these issues and hope all of you here can help me with my decision.... thanks all

[Greg Narozniak]

Dale,
I went round and round and received a great deal of advice and feedback from the folks on the creek. I purchased my Unisaw from Woodworkers Supply through a special first time buyer program that they offered. It was 10% off and Delta had free shipping(to my door with liftgate service). Search the threads, and you can find the link if it is still valid. Some day I will post be late gloat. Do to an injury, work, remodeling I just finally cranked it up a month ago. It sat idle since April. (very embarassed)

PS here was the link
http://www.woodworker.com/newcustomer2004

I agree 100% with Tom. I was in the same boat as you I REALLY REALLY wanted the General 650 (I am a left Tilt Fan) but could not find the extra cash over a Unisaw. $1499 with a 50" Biesemeyer fence and a mobile base included with lift gate deliverey to my door. My Unisaw was dead on out of the box and I know I will never wear it out, Accessories are readily available, and parts will always be available.

The General is a great saw and like another post said "I have never heard anyone say a bad word about the General 350/650 tablesaws" If I had an extra $500 I would have bought it but for me the Unisaw from Woodworkers Supply was the best deal.

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/540f25b2/a335/__sr_/f86e.jpg?phDHhkBBR8QTfsru

Let us know what you choose

[Chris Padilla]

If cash is important, I think the best value in TS is the Grizzly 1023 series. There are plenty of pros very happy with this saw.

[Dan Stuewe]

[QUOTE=Norman B. Hitt
Another tip, in case you go with a left tilt saw, is that some folks make a big deal about the fence tape scale not reading right when using dado blades on a left tilt saw. This is not a big deal. All you have to do is install the dado blades, then move the fence up just touching the dado blade, and lock it, then stick a piece of masking tape across the cursor plate so one edge of the tape is lined up over the "Zero Mark" on the tape scale, and then use that edge as the temporary cursor line while using the dado, and remove the tape when you take the dado blade out again.

[/QUOTE]

Norman,

Thanks for this tip! I've been reading woodworking magazines for ten years and surfing the boards for at least five, and I've never seen this tip! Thanks again!

[Norman Hitt]

[QUOTE=Norman B. Hitt
Another tip, in case you go with a left tilt saw, is that some folks make a big deal about the fence tape scale not reading right when using dado blades on a left tilt saw. This is not a big deal. All you have to do is install the dado blades, then move the fence up just touching the dado blade, and lock it, then stick a piece of masking tape across the cursor plate so one edge of the tape is lined up over the "Zero Mark" on the tape scale, and then use that edge as the temporary cursor line while using the dado, and remove the tape when you take the dado blade out again.



Norman,

Thanks for this tip! I've been reading woodworking magazines for ten years and surfing the boards for at least five, and I've never seen this tip! Thanks again![/QUOTE]
-------000--------

Dan, One thing I forgot to mention in the tip, is that since the tape is on TOP of the cursor plate vs the normal cursor line being on the BOTTOM of the cursor plate, there is a possibility for a small error caused by "Paralax", so Be Sure to lean to the right so you are looking STRAIGHT DOWN from above the tape when you read the scale, and then it will be accurate. Sorry I forgot to mention this and Glad to be of help.

Cheers, and Saw Safe..........Norm

[Dan Racette]

Does anyone like any aftermarket fences over what comes with the saws?

Incra
Jointech
Mulecab accusquare

others?

dan

[mike lucas]

As you already know, even the cheaper table saws will last a very long time. So just about any cabinet table saw will last most people a life time and then some.


As tempting as the newest table saw (Sawstop) is, it has not been tested in the real world. The concept is very good, and it may very well be the best table saw. But until there is years and years of real world use, we can not put it near the top of the list for quality table saw`s.

For anyone looking at the 10" table saw`s under $3,500, there is no match to the Powermatic PM66. This saw has been in use for decades, with near 0 problems. It is the heavest of all the 10" cabinet saw`s. I would buy it over any other in this class. However, it is not nessecery to have this saw when there are many others that sale for much less that will give more then enough years of trouble free service.

I have used the Delta Unisaw, Transpower 10", Grizzly 10", and the Powermatic Model 66 (Witch I have owned for 13 years or so.) and without a doubt, the Powermatic is by far a better, and smoother saw to use.

Some will piont out that other saw`s have a lot bigger trunnion. But this is far from true. So do bolt out near the corners, where as the Powermatic bolt about 8" apart. This does not mean anything. Just take a good look at the size and thickness of the cast iorn on the Powermatic trunnion, it is 10-40% thicker then any others.
The over all weight of these saw`s range from about 440# up to 603#, with the Powermatic being the one that is 603# (These are weights with 5hp motor, and 50-52 inch fence with leg and table set.)

[Rob Strause]

Hi Folks,

I'm a beginner too and have been researching Cab saws. Someone said you'll be happy with whatever you buy, and I think they're right as long as you stick to a major, dependable brand. All have received great praise from their owners and all including the "cadillacs" have had their share of horror stories. So I've been fairly unprejudiced in brands as I've researched.

What I've found right now, is that PM and General seem truly to be Cadillacs. The fit and finish is awesome and if I made my living in wood working I would buy one simply for the enjoyment of looking at them every day.

In terms of best values though.. again prejudices aside...seems there are a couple of standaouts. Right now, Woodworker Supply has a great deal on Unisaws. For $1499 you get a UNisaw with your choice of fence and tilt, mobile base and shipping included. If you're a first-time buyer there, you can get an additional 10% off. That makes a left-tilt UNisaw one of the least expensive options. Less than Jet, within $20 of a comparable Griz, much less than General and PM. The other good value seems to be Bridgewwk. For Griz/Delta pricing you seem to nearly get PM and General grade beef, though not quite the fit and finish.

So other than looking at all the options and finding something you really like about one vs. the other, that UNisaw deal seems exceptional and the Bridgewoods a good value. The Woodworker's Supply deal is limited though so act fast.

Consider this an indpendant and entirely hands off assessment though. I haven't used them all and only have my personal impression that many of the brands in the middle seem very similar. I did note to be careful of some of the imports. The General International for instance wasn't close to the Genreal gear and seemed flimsier than Griz for instance. But again, that's just woodshow tire kicking talking.

Good luck with your purchase.

Rob