I should have bought the Felder stuff.

[Bob Borzelleri]

I set up my 1st wood shop about 15 years ago. The three car garage got a wall of storage units to divide one bay off. I put in a sub panel and wired for 110 and 220 and then went about buying tools. I ended up with a Delta contractor's saw with a Unifence and a Jet 6" jointer. Then came a Dewalt planer and a Delta 14" bandsaw and drill press. Along the way, much other stuff found its way into my shop.

However, before deciding to buy what I bought, I visited the Felder showroom in West Sacramento. I don't recall if Hammer was around yet, but the green stuff was in abundance. It took about 2 more visits for me to conclude that, notwithstanding the size of my shop, the cost of a 4 station combo or even 2 and 2 was too much for me to justify.

Now, 15 years and who knows how much money spent to modify what I bought back then, I am thinking that I would probably have spent considerably more time in the shop had I purchased tools that were designed with safe and efficient work flow in mind.

Now that I have replaced the single garage bay with a purpose built shop (25x25), I've been looking at the original stuff and thinking that the numerous add on infeed/outfeed tables or table slider that will never be as efficient or safe as those that were designed into the machine in the first place, and wondering what is next in the tool department

A SawStop was interesting for awhile and then I concluded that the likelihood of me sticking my finger in the blade is nowhere near as high as having a piece of wood get out of sorts and either becoming a projectile and/or banging me up side the head and knocking me out and falling across the table and spinning blade (which is now exposed because my head smashed the plastic guard on the way down).

OK, a bit of a stretch, I agree. But the fact is, I don't seem to hear about saw safety disasters and the quality euro machines in the same sentence. So here I am thinking about spending the money I decided not to spend 15 years ago.

Maybe, maybe not...

[Paul Greathouse]

Bob, all I can say is everybody has to do what is best for them. Go for the Felder stuff if its the best fit for you and your situation. From what many here have said its quality stuff.

[David DeCristoforo]

You will have a hard time finding machines that are of better quality than the Felder tools although there is a lot that is just as good. The main issue I have with them is the extensive use of small set screws and kip levers to lock things down with. But this seems to be fairly typical of machinery in this class. But if you are making your buying decision on how "safe" your machines are, Felder machines are no "safer", all other things being more or less equal, than any others. It's always a good rule of thumb to buy the best tools you can afford so if you can afford the Felder equipment, have at it.

[Jim Becker]

The bottom line is invest in the best quality tools you can afford and don't look back. Sometimes that means you may change something later and increase your investment...when you can...but in the mean time, you got all that wonderful experience and had an enjoyable time.

My very first purchases were major mistakes (low end, "brand name" benchtop tools from a popular "department store"), but the two subsequent generations paid for themselves in many ways. I will say that I'm very pleased that I was lucky enough to have a few really good years financially that enabled me to move to the Euro style equipment I now use and will continue to use until "use is impossible"...it really is a good experience to walk in the shop and fondle excellent tools each time I work on a project.

[Bruce Page]

Many of us bought our tools at that large “department store” because 20, 30, or 40 years ago, that was all we were exposed to.
I personally would have saved a lot of money (yeah, right:rolleyes:) if the internet and SMC had been around when I got into the hobby.

[Mike Wilkins]

Bob, you are traveling a journey many of us have on. Like many other, I also started with bechtop tools(if that is what they were called) and moved up as my knowledge and experience level increased. I would have loved to move in the Felder direction, but like many others, the wallet spoke first. I am enjoying a Laguna Pro 6' slider right now, after 10 great years with an older Rockwell/Delta Unisaw. Smile every time I walk into the shop and look at that baby(sounds creepy). But beware; there is a learning curve when moving from an American-style cabinet saw to a slider. Fun curve though.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bob....I am getting ready to retire. I purposely bought the best I could afford. In fact, I took out a 2 year loan against my 401K to buy an MM bandsaw...a Pm 3520B and a Oneida DC.

Once I retire, I probably won't be able to afford the same quality.

Everytime I use those 3 tools I have no regrets.

[Rod Sheridan]

Bob, over the last two years I've replaced 4 pieces of General machinery with 2 pieces of Hammer machinery.

I wish Felder had a better presence in Canada years ago when I bought all the General stuff.

Go for it Bob, every year spent deciding is a year missing out of the pleasures of ownership.........Regards, Rod.

[Bob Borzelleri]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. In addition to wondering aloud here, I found myself pondering this issue with my wife. She reminded me that she had accompanied me to the Felder Showroom way back then and had thought that the machines were very "nice looking". I guess I must have been asleep at the switch at the time.

In furthering the discussion, I decided to feel around and see how she was fixed for hardware (she designs and makes women's clothes). The last sewing machine we bought was about 8 years ago and it was about $3,000.

She mentioned she was aware of one machine that would be a significant improvement over hers. It retails for $10,000. Ouch.

[Peter Quinn]

Boy, if I had $25K I didn't know what to do with, I'd be all over a complete Felder set up today. Really very well made tools. And if I had bough one when I set up my shop, I'd probably have saved money at this point. Two table saws, three planers, three shapers, several SCMS's, two jointers, a slot mortiser and a big RAS later, not to mention the wire and twist locks to hook all these up, I've probably spent more than a Felder or Minimax would have cost me. Of course, with ADHD, I'm not the kind of guy that likes a combo. I don't have to break down my shaper to use my saw, or vice versa, so thats good. When I space a set of doors, or make them the wrong size, its nice to have the shaper in the corner still set up. Of course with digital power height adjustment and a stack of extra spindles, every cutter I have could be seconds from set up. But I digress.

If its in the budget, and it what you want, go for it. If not, fahgetabout it. Superfluous in the long run either way.

[Steve Rowe]

Hindsight seems to always be 20/20. If only I knew then what I know now. Unfortunately, at that time with kids at home, mortgage and car payments, and college on the horizon, going high end European machines just wasn't in the cards.

I suspect that for most of us, if it wasn't for the lower price point machinery, we wouldn't have gotten involved in woodworking at all or at least very minimally. Like many, I have upgraded (in some cases more times than I care to admit) to get better equipment. I guess I could look at these as mistakes and should have purchased better but, it was what I was willing to spend at the time and it fulfilled its purpose.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Going from "department store benchtop equipment" to Felder equipment is quite a large swing in the pendulum. I'm certain that there are plenty of offerings in the middle that are safe and effective to do our hobby with. For instance, I don't own any Felder equipment, and I don't feel unsafe as a result of this fact.

Also, I am curious as to what modifications that Bob made to his machines to improve safety that costed so much that a premium European brand would have been cheaper. Perhaps the folks here at SMC can offer lower cost alternatives/suggestions on how to improve safety on middle cost machinery. After all, SMC'ers are a clever bunch! :)

Lastly, I think everyone gradually upgrades their tools as they stay with the hobby. Nothing new here. My recommendation: don't fret over it, you're in good company. The good news is that the offerings today, versus 25 years ago, make 'smarter' equipment more accessible than ever before. I attribute this to the positive promotion of our hobby by woodworking TV shows and the free flowing knowledge on the internet.

-Jeff :)

[David DeCristoforo]

"...she was aware of one machine that would be a significant improvement over hers. It retails for $10,000.."

OK, here's my advice. Get the Felder stuff. But up your budget by ten grand and get your sweetie than sewing machine at the same time. Just saying....

[Bill ThompsonNM]

And of course the loml keeps saying her sewing machines work fine ...
(I did manage to buy her an antique singer featherweight when I bought my unisaw)
so you could try taking her to sewing/quilting shows. Nothing likeclooking at the machines in action..

[tim rowledge]

My advice, for what it's worth, would be to go with the classiest brand that you can get local service for; whether that is MiniMax, Felder, Hammer, err... running out of names here. I got MM through a combination of luck and a fantastic deal and it has served me very well. Everyone I know that has bought MM or Felder loves them.

If you have space, consider a pair of machines(saw/shaper and jointer/plane/mortiser) rather than the 5-in-1. Changeover doesn't take much time but it does take *some* time. Strongly consider the longer slider you can imagine fitting in; I have 5ft unit but the 8ft would make some jobs a lot easier. Spend some money on shaper tooling and consider a powerfeeder. And if you don't have one yet, get a big cyclone DC; the jointer/planer can overwhelm any lightweight CD with chips very easily.

[Bob Borzelleri]

Going from "department store benchtop equipment" to Felder equipment is quite a large swing in the pendulum. I'm certain that there are plenty of offerings in the middle that are safe and effective to do our hobby with. For instance, I don't own any Felder equipment, and I don't feel unsafe as a result of this fact.

Also, I am curious as to what modifications that Bob made to his machines to improve safety that costed so much that a premium European brand would have been cheaper. Perhaps the folks here at SMC can offer lower cost alternatives/suggestions on how to improve safety on middle cost machinery. After all, SMC'ers are a clever bunch! :)

Lastly, I think everyone gradually upgrades their tools as they stay with the hobby. Nothing new here. My recommendation: don't fret over it, you're in good company. The good news is that the offerings today, versus 25 years ago, make 'smarter' equipment more accessible than ever before. I attribute this to the positive promotion of our hobby by woodworking TV shows and the free flowing knowledge on the internet.

-Jeff :)

Jeff...

It's true that none of mods expense would ever come close to the price differential between a Delta anything and a Felder anything.

The point I was leading to was that Delta purchase left much to be desired as evidenced by the ongoing mods, the sum total of which left me far short of the satisfaction I believe I would have had over the past 15 years had I "bought the Feder stuff".

...Bob

[Bob Borzelleri]

"...she was aware of one machine that would be a significant improvement over hers. It retails for $10,000.."

OK, here's my advice. Get the Felder stuff. But up your budget by ten grand and get your sweetie than sewing machine at the same time. Just saying....

David...

Your advice is pretty much the de facto plan, at this point.

...Bob

[Sean Nagle]

Bob, I tooled up my shop 16 years ago, about the same time you did. I used to hang out at use-net's rec.woodworking forum. The discussion and recommendations at the time never even mentioned the Euro-machines. I can add that practically all the woodworking magazines published at the time and since have not paid much attention to the Euro-machines. I think the general sentiment has been that they are for production shops. I would never have considered a Felder or MiniMax 16 years ago. You really were on the leading edge if it was a serious option for you at that time.

[Bob Borzelleri]

Bob, I tooled up my shop 16 years ago, about the same time you did. I used to hang out at use-net's rec.woodworking forum. The discussion and recommendations at the time never even mentioned the Euro-machines. I can add that practically all the woodworking magazines published at the time and since have not paid much attention to the Euro-machines. I think the general sentiment has been that they are for production shops. I would never have considered a Felder or MiniMax 16 years ago. You really were on the leading edge if it was a serious option for you at that time.

Sean...

I think part of my "leading edge" position at the time was facilitated by living about 5 miles from the Felder showroom.:D

...Bob

[Mr. Jeff Smith]

I'm a newbie, never even seen a Felder unit up close.
Checked out their site, looks like you have to register to view the prices.
Anyone have a price list for some of their more common machines?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Jeff, it's worth registering, they don't pester you.

Once you register you can also watch videos.

The long video of the FC741 is great, it can be downloaded to your computer.

Regards, Rod.

[Terry Hatfield]

Hmmmm....just paid off all those fancy stainless appliances that my wife wanted so badly.....hmmmmmmm.....

[Richard Link]

Just a teaser.... One of the better days in recent memory.

If it's in your budget, you won't regret the Felder purchase.

Rick

[Jim Headrick]

I'm Just Sayin'
I like the way you guys think...

I also am looking at building my shop... I have put off buying any type of saw for the last 3 years.. I purchased all of Festool products over the last 3 years and have built my Raised Panel Kitchen Cabinets with inset doors along with a free standing 15 step stair case all of the above out of Hickory.. sure it was tough with my hand tools... but ... not as bad as a handsaw and chisel... Although, it would have went a heck of a lot easier had I have purchased a table saw...

SawStop was my choice... until I needed to look at a planer and then a jointer... soon I was looking at MiniMax. Then I saw it... FELDER... WOW!

I'm biting the bullet.. CF741SP with Variable Speed 5.0.... sweet....

The price is over the top, but as you guys say, BUY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD!. but I can't afford it !... so I am going to buy it anyway...:eek:
I plan on doing this the rest of my life, and if I just cut a few boards a week, well.... they will be very sweet cuts....

btw, anybody want to buy a "cherry" 2000 Porsche 911 Cabriolet?

[scott vroom]

Sure, and I'll bet we'd all like to be driving a Maserati instead of that GM or Toyota, but when I'm driving through the redwoods over La Honda road on the way to the coast, I stop thinking about the tool I'm driving and enjoy the experience of the trip. Tool envy is like _ _ _ _ _ envy - there's always someone that's got a better (bigger) one. But like they say, it's not the size of the wand that counts, but the magician that uses it.:eek:

[Van Huskey]

I agree the Felder stuff is at the top of the heap. However for me even though I am not a particularly old dog and actually love learning new tricks I just can't wrap me head around combo machines. I am planning a new shop ground up with all new tools but just can't give the combo stuff a chance even wth my love of quality and innovation. I am the guy that thinks you should own 1 router for each bit and one ROS for every grit. Even though I am a mere hobbyist the time spent changing things over takes precious time away from my pursuit. Jeez, I just remembered my worst "transgretion" in my old shop I had a RAS and 3 CSMS all in a line with a shared fence, each set up for different actions.

That all said I would never try to talk someone out of Felder, in fact just the opposite as long as they can wrap their head around the process of using combo machines, which I think is just a lack of vision (and intellect) on my part.

[Dino Drosas]

When I decided to get serious about my woodworking hobby, I started looking at the European machines. I first went to look at a Robland which was located less than a hundred miles away. I decided it was not the machine for me - I had already seen a Felder. I found a used Felder and bought it as soon as I saw it. That was 1989 and I used that machine for twelve years until I traded up for a newer used Felder combination machine. Since then I have traded twice; both times for separate saw/shaper and J/P and I now have the ultimate Felder set-up, IMO (I also like nice cars and have pursued that the same way). I have always bought used for about half the price of new and have never had a serious problem with any of the equipment or selling it for close to what it cost me. Felder is definitely up there with the best and I could not be happier with my choices. I feel the same as you about the Saw Stop as I never get close to the blade using the slider and in all those years never encountered a violent kickback.

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree the Felder stuff is at the top of the heap. However for me even though I am not a particularly old dog and actually love learning new tricks I just can't wrap me head around combo machines. I am planning a new shop ground up with all new tools but just can't give the combo stuff a chance even wth my love of quality and innovation. I am the guy that thinks you should own 1 router for each bit and one ROS for every grit. Even though I am a mere hobbyist the time spent changing things over takes precious time away from my pursuit. Jeez, I just remembered my worst "transgretion" in my old shop I had a RAS and 3 CSMS all in a line with a shared fence, each set up for different actions.

That all said I would never try to talk someone out of Felder, in fact just the opposite as long as they can wrap their head around the process of using combo machines, which I think is just a lack of vision (and intellect) on my part.

Well if you have the space and the budget, you can have the best of both worlds and buy individual Felder machines. I have to admit, that would be an incredible shop.

For me, the space and budget are the issue so I went with a jointer/planer and a saw/shaper.

Regards, Rod.

[Richard Link]

Even though I am a mere hobbyist the time spent changing things over takes precious time away from my pursuit. Jeez, I just remembered my worst "transgretion" in my old shop I had a RAS and 3 CSMS all in a line with a shared fence, each set up for different actions.


Good point. On the other hand, I've not found the changeovers to be any significant impediment on the Felder. The only one of any significance would be the saw to shaper changeover which requires you to put the fence back on. Since the fence holds all your previous settings, I don't imagine that will be a problem although it does require more work. The jointer to planer and back changeover with the Powerdrive takes about 10 seconds and has been a complete nonissue.

For me, recognizing the downsides of a combo machine, the space available dictated that decision. As it turns out, I'm very happy with the tradeoff and even in my small space now have room to work again comfortably.

[Don Bullock]

When I bought my SawStop I had never seen a "European style" saw. If I had that choice back then and knew more about Felder and the other brands I may have bought one of them instead of my "American" style table saw. Hindsight is always something that haunts us. For now, and perhaps the rest of my life, I'll enjoy the SawStop. As Jim Becker said,


The bottom line is invest in the best quality tools you can afford and don't look back. Sometimes that means you may change something later and increase your investment...when you can...but in the mean time, you got all that wonderful experience and had an enjoyable time.

Like him I enjoyed my old saw from the same "department store" for many years. It served me well for that time. Due to circumstances and an understanding wife I was able to upgrade it. It sounds like you're very fortunate to have the same support from your wife.

My advice is to enjoy it while you can. Make your choice sooner rather than later. And, make sure to thank your wife.:D

[Ray Bell]

Just a teaser.... One of the better days in recent memory.

If it's in your budget, you won't regret the Felder purchase.

Rick

So Richard, what exactly is this combination, and when was it delivered? It is impressively big! Congrats!

[Steve Woolf]

After hours of internet searching I'm now convinced that a slider is the way to go, and that we are in the early stages of a trend that will have us all using them before too long. Personally, at 68 years old, I can't wait!

I registered on the Felder site and got a phone call about some deep discounts on the Hammer K3 machines, sales person emailed me some useful info and they're sending me catalogs. It was good to make the contact and learn about their aggressive marketing to exactly the likes of me -- serious hobbyist, retirement age, ready and able to buy quality for the joy of it, and adventuresome to transition to a euro style table saw.

Grizzly G0623X versus the Hammer K3 models-- no doubt that Felder/Hammer quality has got to surpass Grizzly (though I wonder whether Grozzly's quality would still satsify), but my dilemma right now is not so much about that, or even about the cost. My problem is what length sliding table to aim for. Clearly the longer ones are more useful, both for sheet goods and ripping rough lumber, but I'm not a production woodworker and I wonder whether most of the time the long table would be in my way. After all, for sheet goods, like most of us, I've typically cut them down roughly with a hand held circular saw first, then brought them to the table saw. For the amount of casework I'll be doing, I won't mind doing that if the slider is too short to cut full sheets, and I'd still enjoy all the other benefits of the slider. For ripping lumber longer than the slider, one of the videos I've seen shows a plywood sled for rips with he slider locked.

I'd appreciate any comments you-all might have on the above!

[Richard Link]

So Richard, what exactly is this combination, and when was it delivered? It is impressively big! Congrats!

Thanks. Its a cf741S combo machine (saw, shaper, jointer, planer and mortiser. Looks impressively big on the truck but actually scales down nicely when it is unloaded. I can use it (including the 9 foot sliding table) quite easily in a 2 car garage, which is the real advantage of a combo machine IMHO. No way I could have put a 16 inch jointer, a 16 inch planer, a sliding table saw, a 5 HP shaper and a mortiser in my tiny garage. Yet, this thing fits and works quite nicely in that space.

Very happy with it. I contemplated getting the shorter table but am very thankful I didn't do so.

[Tom W Armstrong]

I'd appreciate any comments you-all might have on the above!

Steve, First welcome to SMC! I'm also looking into the current "deal" on the Hammer K3. I would suggest you start a new thread with your questions about the K3 and slider size, and you'll get more responses.

[Steve Woolf]

I would suggest you start a new thread with your questions about the K3 and slider size, and you'll get more responses.

Thanks, Tom. Will do.