Salvaged chestnut - buyer beware

[Mitchell Andrus]

I've been retained by a prominent museum to reproduce a few missing pieces for their collection. They purchased about $6,000.00 of recycled chestnut and had it delivered. Yikes.

Now, the notion of using period wood may have some appeal, just be aware if you get a request for this kind of project that you need to have the option to reject what's delivered. The wood was moved from Il to NJ for me sight unseen by anyone but the seller. Big mistake.

I surfaced a few boards and took a few through the finish process. Not acceptable, right?

http://picasaweb.google.com/missionfurnishings/FarmsChestnut#
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[Aaron Wingert]

That finished wood has some nifty character, but if it isn't what you and your client are looking for that's a bummer. Buying reclaimed wood sight-unseen would scare the heck out of me. What's your client's take on the material they paid for after seeing your pictures?

[Chris Padilla]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!! I think they're sweet! You may need to plane further, I guess?

Norm had a show where he used recycled chestnut...it was simply gorgeous stuff!

Edit: Okay, I glanced at the other 20 pics...yeah, that stuff is in pretty bad shape...are we looking at $6k of chestnut in the van??

[george wilson]

All the chestnut i've seen was wormy. It was killed off by a blight.

[Mike Cruz]

Wow, that is some puuuurdy wood. That would make some great looking furniture.

[Mitchell Andrus]

..are we looking at $6k of chestnut in the van??

Yep. Hardly seems worth it, Huh?

That's about 300 bf at $20.00/.
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[Mitchell Andrus]

What's your client's take on the material they paid for after seeing your pictures?

The board is meeting in about a week. The sh*ts gonna hit the fan.

Half of the board wanted to use ash as I suggested, a fine substitute for chestnut BTW, the other half argued for staying authentic and going for chestnut and spending the extra $5K.

I declined the offer to obtain the wood. Someone else has that monkey on his back now - BUT, I'm out a $3,200.00 commission until they figure out what to do. Bummer.
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[Mitchell Andrus]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!! I think they're sweet! You may need to plane further, I guess?



I agree, chestnut is about as good as it gets. It's just that this stuff was used as landing ramps at Normandy Beach.

Planning more doesn't help. The pics are of boards planned to 1 1/4 from a full 2 inches thick.
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[Homer Faucett]

I have some American Chestnut, have worked with it, and did some sleuthing and comparing when I picked up my load from an old barn that was built in the 1800's.

First, as you note, nearly all American Chestnut is "reclaimed" or "recycled" material from old barns or other structures, and was used as joists or beams in those old working structures because it was generally straight grained, strong, and somewhat decay resistant. It was often sawed up from a tree on the premises, as it was convenient and at hand, and was known not to shrink or warp too much.

You won't be finding much in the way of "green" or newly sawed American Chestnut because it was subject to a blight that came in at the turn of the 20th century. Plus, much of what you will find will be "wormy" (those holes you have in your boards) because the blight weakened the tree and made is susceptible to attack by insects. Many people specifically seek out the wormy Chestnut for projects.

Now, when people sawed up lumber for barns back then, many just used whatever they cut, and you may have joists that have bark still attached, bark inclusions, knot holes, and the various and asundry crazy grain patterns that you are showing. This is absolutely consistent with the chestnut lumber I reclaimed from hayloft joists. I would expect to find random nails and other material in the wood, and there will be significantly more waste in using Chestnut reclaimed from a barn, simply because it's not what I'd call anything approaching FAS. It was construction lumber, not furniture grade lumber. There's an old statement about people being "barnyard carpenters" around here, and it's usually not flattering with regard to someone's skills . . . but it is indicative of someone getting the job done "good 'nuff" to keep the barn in working order. That's about the level I would ascribe to much of the lumber in barns--and a lot of them are still working today 150 years later, so I can't say much against them.

I guess at the end of the day, the question should be what were your expectations and did you have those expectations based upon representations from the seller. From my perspective, without knowing anything other than looking at your pictures, the Chestnut you show is very consistent with what I have seen reclaimed from barns around here, and about par for the course. I personally would not buy any that I could not put my hands on and sort out, or at least get a good break on it because there is so much variation from board to board and barn to barn.

I think the grain you've got going there is fantastic, and the furniture will be a true heirloom. Good luck!

[Louie Ballis]

Personally speaking that chestnut is beautiful, but 6k for a van load? What did that work out to a board foot?

[Chris Padilla]

Yep. Hardly seems worth it, Huh?
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ouch......

[Matt Day]

I hope it wasn't $6k for all the wood in the picture of the van - that's some expensive wood there if so!

[Mark Maleski]

I declined the offer to obtain the wood. Someone else has that monkey on his back now - BUT, I'm out a $3,200.00 commission until they figure out what to do. Bummer.
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Agreed, bummer for you. Seems like they ought to be able to recoup the $6k, or the majority of it anyway, by re-selling the timber. Maybe they could even give you the go-ahead with ash in the meantime. Put a bug in their ear about it?

BTW, in addition to being lower quality than you need for cabinetry, those boards seem awfully narrow. It's kinda missing the point of period authenticity from that perspective too.

[Ray Newman]

I do not understand the problem here. Reclaimed wood is reclaimed and fraught with all sorts of problems.

The museum board bought the reclaimed wood. They probably had no idea exactly what "reclaimed" means. Did anyone explain what "reclaimed" means and the possible and/or probable condition of the wood? Or, if informed they were willing to ignore it for the sake of authenticity.

Did the seller have any description of the condition?

You proposed using ash. But did you present an opinion concerning the reclaimed wood possible condition and why ash would be better? And if you did and continued to have doubts about the wood, why did take the job? Appears that you were willing to assume a risk that the reclaimed wood could/would be satisfactory to work with?

You did make a very smart decision not to purchase the wood. The fecal matter will definitely strike the air circulating device....

[Mitchell Andrus]

Agreed, bummer for you. Seems like they ought to be able to recoup the $6k, or the majority of it anyway, by re-selling the timber. Maybe they could even give you the go-ahead with ash in the meantime. Put a bug in their ear about it?

BTW, in addition to being lower quality than you need for cabinetry, those boards seem awfully narrow. It's kinda missing the point of period authenticity from that perspective too.

The boards do have some value if you're doing a wormy/distressed kitchen for example. Gotta remember... barns were built out of the lumber that the furniture makers didn't want - second grade stuff which made it pretty cheap.
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[Mitchell Andrus]

I do not understand the problem here. Reclaimed wood is reclaimed and fraught with all sorts of problems.

The museum board bought the reclaimed wood. They probably had no idea exactly what "reclaimed" means. Did anyone explain what "reclaimed" means and the possible and/or probable condition of the wood? Or, if informed they were willing to ignore it for the sake of authenticity.

Did the seller have any description of the condition?

You proposed using ash. But did you present an opinion concerning the reclaimed wood possible condition and why ash would be better? And if you did and continued to have doubts about the wood, why did take the job? Appears that you were willing to assume a risk that the reclaimed wood could/would be satisfactory to work with?

You did make a very smart decision not to purchase the wood. The fecal matter will definitely strike the air circulating device....


I took the job based on using ash. The job changed once the chestnut was located. This has been an on-going 'thing' for almost 30 months. The wood came to me only in December.


In a nutshell....

I forwarded a proposal to make the pieces in either red oak or ash at about $4,000.00. I got the job rather quickly but was told to hold off for a bit. 6 or 7 months went by as the board fought over the use of chestnut. I was asked to pull out the cost of wood and sent the proposal for labor alone for $3,200.00. The sticking point at the board of directors was the extra +- $5,000.00 for old chestnut. One or two board members didn't want a non-authentic wood used.

I SPECIFICALLY opted out of finding the chestnut for them for 2 reasons. First, time. I don't get paid to hunt for wood. A few quick phone calls told me it wasn't going to be easy. Second, I wasn't going to be paid to fly to the mid-west to hand-pick or reject lumber.

Once a person came forward who was willing to donate the money required to buy chestnut - ash as a choice was out.

Another YEAR went by as they hunted for the lumber, and it was picked up by a board member at the supplier's almost 800 miles away and delivered to my shop.

I had PLENTY of conversations and many emails warning against using old wood and the problems involved.

I'm really in the clear here. I just can't use what they've delivered. Pretty simple... go back to plan 'A'.
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[Peter Quinn]

I guess I've never quite under stood the appeal of chestnut. If it were say cheap and plentiful, sure, why not. I'm not seeing something so beautiful there to go through great pains to acquire it. And in the case of recycled lumber, well that is a crap shoot at best. There is a local guy that comes to the shop all the time with reclaimed lumber, to rent time on the the wide belt, and his last visit involved passage doors for his own house, which is a business card of sorts for his work, of reclaimed chestnut he had collected.

I half jokingly said "Hey, you've been robbed. I'll tell the boss the wood he sold you was rotten and replace this with some nice white oak or ash if you like!":rolleyes: His lumber looked at least as bad as what you have there, worm holes, peg holes, bullet holes, buck shot, streaks, water marks, you name it. Well his niche is rustic, and beautifully done, but its never been my thing. I don't understand the appeal of paying so much to have something look beaten and shabby.

[David Helm]

Too bad the board member wasn't a structural pest inspector. One look tells me that wood was riddles with Lictid beetles. The larva actually live in the wood, eating it to grow to maturity.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Too bad the board member wasn't a structural pest inspector. One look tells me that wood was riddles with Lictid beetles. The larva actually live in the wood, eating it to grow to maturity.

Funny you said that. The dealer said that he put this pile in the kiln for a few hours to kill the insects. You'd think that would have made the guy's ears perk up a bit, huh?
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[Jason White]

Are you kidding?? That stuff is gorgeous!!! :eek:

Jason



I've been retained by a prominent museum to reproduce a few missing pieces for their collection. They purchased about $6,000.00 of recycled chestnut and had it delivered. Yikes.

Now, the notion of using period wood may have some appeal, just be aware if you get a request for this kind of project that you need to have the option to reject what's delivered. The wood was moved from Il to NJ for me sight unseen by anyone but the seller. Big mistake.

I surfaced a few boards and took a few through the finish process. Not acceptable, right?

http://picasaweb.google.com/missionfurnishings/FarmsChestnut#
.

[scott spencer]

I think it's really cool....loaded with character flaws. Not sure I'd $6k for it, but I do like what I've seen.

[Art Mulder]

I'm really in the clear here. I just can't use what they've delivered. Pretty simple... go back to plan 'A'.
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I find this discussion fascinating. In part, it really demonstrates how much personal preference, likes and dislikes, set us apart.

I also don't really care for the artificial "rustic" look that some people like, especially when I see articles that explain how to bang up your work to give it that "distressed" look. It's just not my preference.

I admit that an occasional worm hole can add a bit of character, but not to the extent that I see in Mitchell's photos.

I really wonder about the guy who picked out the wood -- when I see the rough boards on your picasa account, i see it riddled with worm holes and I would have been inclined to toss it on the burn pile!

Hope for your sake it clears up soon.

...art

ps: Hmmm, most quotes only guarantee the price for 90 days or so. And this has been over a year for you?

[Greg Portland]

I guess I've never quite under stood the appeal of chestnut.He's reproducing some period pieces of furniture for a museum (see his 1st post). This (IMO) requires a faithful adherence to the style and materials.

[Mitchell Andrus]

ps: Hmmm, most quotes only guarantee the price for 90 days or so. And this has been over a year for you?

Well... it's a non-profit and they are all friends and they've been very helpful over the years and I've done work for them in the past and......
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[Bob Lang]

The funny thing about Chestnut is that the blight (and clever marketing) has made some really junk wood become appealing, especially when people talk about "wormy chestnut" as if it were something special.

Before the blight, the period Mitch's clients are aiming for, Chestnut was the most common tree in eastern hardwood forests, 1 in 4 trees in many places. What would have been used at the time would have been clear, wide pieces. It would be hard to distinguish Ash from Chestnut, and Ash would certainly be closer than the stuff in the pictures.

In the northern Ohio area where I grew up there were numerous WPA projects made from Chestnut, cut and used before the blight killed and destroyed the trees. Many of these are still standing in a national park and boy scout camp. All of it clear wide stuff that looks a lot like ash or oak. Junk wood is junk wood in my book no matter how you spin it. Building something from the pre-blight period out of that stuff would be silly, both from a practical and an historic standpoint.

Bob Lang