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Linda Kroeker
03-16-2010, 5:14 PM
I need to laser some name tags, they want a colored logo with shading...I talked to a guy who does digital color printing on vinyl that he
adheres to the laser material name tags...does this seem like it would last...he says it permanent. I would get a batch of about 50-75 and just laser the names as need be.
This would be way cheaper than sublimation or silkscreened. What do you think?
Thanks,
Linda

Scott Shepherd
03-16-2010, 5:49 PM
I'd never do it, but that's me. If they want it done right, it would need to be color laser or dye sub, in my limited experience. Putting vinyl on name tags? Never heard of anyone doing that.

Contact Mike Null on this forum, he can get you what you want and it'll look great, not like someone stuck a sticker on a name tag.

Just my opinion.

Hilton Lister
03-16-2010, 6:38 PM
In my opinion, colour printing on vinyl is superior to dye sub. Laser may be as good, but I have no experience in that area. The key is to resin dome after applying the sticker. I make hundreds of badges that way, but I only use an Epson Printer on Papillio printable vinyl and overlaminate before cutting the stickers. Biggest problem is the yellowing of the resin. I have not been able to obtain any UV resistant resin locally.

Scott Shepherd
03-16-2010, 7:11 PM
Hilton, I agree, if you plan to dome it, that makes a nice tag, but what was described, to me, sounded very amateurish. There are people that make nothing but names tags. Full color, single color, etc. and of all the sites I've seen by people that makes 1000's and 1000's of them each month, I've never seen the option to have a sticker stuck on one.

Now doming a decal for a name badge, that's different. That can be a very high end looking name tag.

Larry Bratton
03-16-2010, 8:39 PM
I would think that a printed vinyl sticker with a laminate applied would be very durable. Solvent inks on vinyl hold up very well, even outside. They put it on vehicles, signs etc., why not a tag? Print and cut machines would be ideal tools for this.

Rodne Gold
03-16-2010, 11:37 PM
Well , I make many 1000's of digitally printed vinyl items on a monthly basis , many of em badges.
In general we dome most of it , but do just overlaminate a few and supply some "naked"

If we do the badge naked (undomed or un overlammed) the way you want to do it , I would print and cut on a clear vinyl and apply it so it looks like it was screened or foiled directly to the substrate (if it isn't white) - the vinyl glues are very good these days , you wont even see em.

I use eco solvent inks on the vinyl with outdoor life of 5 years so as a badge it would last a long time. Inkjet inks will not have durability on the inkjet vinyls naked , as the vinyls have a coating on that accept the ink , unlike solvent inks that "burn" into the vinyl

You would be able to remove or damage the print by abrasion or chemical attack , even if its solvent if its printed and not overlaminated.
My printer can print , I can then remove the material , overlaminate with whatever , reload , re register and then cut both the print and the overlamination to any shape.

As to doming , well here I have a lot of experience - the key is the resin , buying from doming suppliers is not the way to go price wise or , imho , quality wise
Go to your local polyurethane supplier and use a 2 part water clear UV resistant product that they can or do supply.
I use one that dries with a fair amount of flexibility and does not get hard like epoxies (which yellow) and this avoids shattering , delaminating , scratching etc.
The flexibility allows me to use decals on curved and irregular surfaces , remain nice and shiny and are impervious to impact damage.
The issue with using this is that you need to dome in a dehumidified environment to avoid bubbles.
You also need to be doming fair volumes cos ideally you need to use proper dosing and dispensing machines if you want quick drying times - I use a product that can dry in 30 mins and can pack for shipping in 60.
The doming resins cost about $20 a litre mixed and 1 litre (about 1 quart) can cover 1000 sq inches .
So it costs the princely sum of 2c per sq inch to dome or about 5c for the average badge.
You could charge up to double your normal price for a domed vs undomed badge.
You can dome just about anything , try it on normal laser output like small perspex lettering etc. There is a limit to the size of an object re doming as domes rely on surface tension.
To give an example , a small drop of honey on your kitchen countertop will form a nice round high dome over a small area , a spoonful will go flat. 6" x 6" is probably the limit.
One nice thing about doming is that it tends to hide or lessen both cnc milling marks and laser ridging marks where you have engraved stuff away.
Doming adds huge percieved value to any item and you can charge accordingly.

Hilton Lister
03-17-2010, 2:20 AM
I occasionally use a soft UV cured resin, but I don't feel it's as durable as a hard
2 pot mix. This is from my observation of both types. I also find it much more difficult to remove the bubbles from the UV cured stuff as it doesn't seem take a bare flame and retain it's high gloss finish. There's no easier way to get dust onto the resin than using a heat gun or hair drier either. Dust free - not in our workshop. Funny thing with the uv resin. It seems to develop bubbles while curing. "they weren't there when I put them under light to cure" Or perhaps my eyesight ain't what is used to be!
For the quantities I do (small) I'm just going to have put up with some resin yellowing, I guess. I usually warn clients that the badges do yellow over time, but I'm always looking for a better product.

Rodne Gold
03-17-2010, 3:02 AM
The only reasons for bubbling/bubbles is either
1) moisture in the air - that is almost 99% the problem in most cases - use a dehumidifier in the room when doming
2) Aeration when mixing - and you can ameliorate that by lightly folding the mixture rather than vigorously mixing it - or you can de bubble it in a vacuum chamber (not really practical)
Long pot life = long drying times which will tend to make water absorption more of a problem.
A cardboard box with a lightbulb placed over the drying objects will also speed drying time , heat the environment , promote bubble rising and popping and keep it dust and mositure free.
UV resins are way too expensive to use in production unless they are the type that cure in 10 secs with those high intensity lights , they are also less viscous than 2 part urethanes and dont build high domes.
The ultra fast cures resins are good when you need the finished product to be ready to go in 5 mins or have a huge automated production line doing many of 10 000's an item a day and cant have the overhead of drying racks.
If you want low cost semi automated doming and dispensing systems , go to www.cammda.com (http://www.cammda.com)

Hilton Lister
03-17-2010, 3:29 AM
Thanks Rodney. UV cured resin is one pot. Yeah, have built a light box for it, but problem is probably humidity even though we use a dehumidifier. Very damp basement area in our shop. actually get better results using it outside in the sun! Probably should let it sit for a while before I remove the bubbles I guess. Only use that resin for 1 inch centres required urgently these days. It is used quite extensively by engravers here, but from the examples I've seen, doesn't stand up to well to abrasion for badges.
I would probably only make 10 -20 badges per week,and about the same number of club centres for medals and trophies, so a dispenser would not really be an economic option for me. I tend to specialize in small runs as we don't have a large corporate population in my area.

Mike Null
03-17-2010, 5:49 AM
STEVE
Thanks for the recommendation. I agree with you that vinyl on nametags leaves me a little skeptical about durability. But my experience with such applications is limited to overlams which I was not pleased with.

I would be more inclined to use dye sublimation or CLTT to solve Linda's issue.

MagicTouch has a new paper coming which will apply to the reverse side of clear acrylic and offers great color flexibility for logos. It does require a heat press.

Scott Shepherd
03-17-2010, 8:57 AM
In case my statements were confusing, I would not suggest you cannot do it, what I suggest is that it's not a commonly used method to use printed vinyl for name tags.

Can you do it? Sure. You can do a lot of things.

Would I print and dome name tags? Sure would.

I've seen a lot of name tags and to this day, I have never seen printed vinyl on a name tag in a business environment.

Linda Kroeker
03-17-2010, 11:23 AM
Thank you everyone for your imput...I too am concerned with the durability and the whole professional look of it.
I haven't seen a sample, but will go today and check it out...someone I know had some done...full cover over the tag.
I thought about sublimation, but what logos I've seen done in the past didn't seem clear enough...or not having a sharp edge.
I think they might just have to use that company that does digital printing on CR80???? not sure what that is.
Another job where I learned something new...

Linda

Mike Null
03-17-2010, 3:59 PM
Linda

If the logos were not sharp or clear it could have been poor quality art or the operator may have done a poor job.

There is no reason to expect anything but perfection with dye sub or CLTT name tags.

Linda Kroeker
03-17-2010, 10:53 PM
Mike - I looked at someones sublimated name tags, and the print looked okay on it, but I did not like how all the tags were bowed.
Is this normal...I've never done any other type of name tag that I couldn't laser. and what is CLTT tags?
Also got a sample of a complete overlay of a digital printed tag...same material that they use to wrap cars...very smooth and sharp image. The guy says it should stick for a long time.
Linda

Rodne Gold
03-18-2010, 12:07 AM
Car wrap vinyl is premium cast and normally has 7 year life - ie the adhesive will last for 7 years
The best option is to have just the logo printed and die cut and you apply and then engrave the rest
Digital inkjet printers will print on white or print white , which can be a big plus if you are using another coloured substrate for the engraving.
Should be cheap too , I dont charge more than $7 per sq ft for full colour die cut to any shape decals on premium vinyl.

Mike Null
03-18-2010, 4:35 AM
Linda

Dye sub name tags are normally done on FRP which will not bow. I do some CLTT tags on much thinner plastics and they will bow if you don't flatten them as they cool.

As far as vinyl is concerned I like the printed material but am skeptical about the edges holding up to the daily handling they get.

Linda Kroeker
03-18-2010, 11:27 AM
Rodney - I thought about having just the logo done and I just laser the names as needed, but then I thought it might be more apt to peel and you would be able to feel the edges...
where if I had the guy do logo names and titles and have the vinyl go all the way from edge to edge you might not notice it.
Linda

Rodne Gold
03-18-2010, 1:51 PM
If its car wrap vinyl it wont peel , imagine the problems if it peeled off a car which endure much more rigourous use and abuse than a badge. If you engrave part - its old school and new school mixed, much more acceptable than just an undomed sticker