Crown Molding Problem.

[Ben Abate]

Hello all,

I have a question for you; a buddy of mine stopped by today to help him solve a problem he was having installing some crown molding. Here is what he has to deal with.

He has cathedral type ceilings and he want to bring the crown down to meet another straight wall if you can imagine what I'm talking about. The angle is 12 degrees to the other wall.

I'll have to tell you. I had it close but I just couldn't get the two lands on the moldings to set flat on the walls. I made a quick jig to simulate what he has at home.

So if you understand what I'm trying to get across is that the ceiling is on a 12 degree pitch from the regular wall.

What are we doing wrong? I won't go into how I was cutting it, I'll wait to here what you fellows do

Thanks guys

[Prashun Patel]

http://www.garymkatz.com/trim_techniques.html

This might help.

[Jay Brewer]

Shawn's link is the only way I have seen it work without useing corner blocks. Its basically a pie shaped peice that intersects the 2 different angles.

[David DeCristoforo]

Can't be done. The geometry simply does not work. You have to have a transition piece to "turn the corner" before you can "go up the rake". Looks like hell (IMMHO). A corner block of some sort looks much better (again IMMHO).

[Mike Henderson]

Can't be done. The geometry simply does not work. You have to have a transition piece to "turn the corner" before you can "go up the rake". Looks like hell (IMMHO). A corner block of some sort looks much better (again IMMHO).
I agree with the solution but I don't think it looks bad. I did that in my house and you don't even notice the small wedge shaped pieces.

Mike

[David DeCristoforo]

"...but I don't think it looks bad..."

As I said... IMMHO.

[Ben Abate]

Fellows,

Thanks, I thought it could,

I beat my head against the chop saw trying to figure the angles and I was not getting it. Like I mentioned I got close but it would not work and I'm telling him we'll get it.

I finally raised the white flag and told him that I know some pretty smart fellows that could give me the correct answer. And I was correct on that. You guys saved me a nights sleep.

thanks guys. By the way before he left for home he said to me, have you ever seen those blocks that go into the corner? I said yes, he told me that might be the answer. Well he was right.

take care
Ben

[Mike Henderson]

I used the book and spreadsheet from this (http://www.compoundmiter.com/)place when I installed my crown molding.

Mike

[Brett Nelson]

Firstly, I applaud Gary Katz and Joe Fusco for their alternative way of joining a horizontal crown to a raking crown. This post is not intended to bag on that method at all. When I say "correct", it is not to sound condescending, but is the opinion of the architectural design world based on a historical greek/roman standard.

This probably isn't the answer you want, but there is a "correct" way to make that transition. You need to have a custom profile milled for the angled (raking) crown. It looks very similar to the profile on the horizontal crown but will appear to be more elongated. IOW, if you're using a 4.5" crown, then the raking crown would need to have the same profile but will be "stretched" out to about 4 7/8" and instead of 45* backcuts, you'll need a 41* top backcut and a 49* bottom backcut, because the projection of the raking crown must stay the same, while the height of the raking crown increases. This elongation will be greater as the rake becomes steeper, but you are working on a 2.5:12 pitch.

This is the only way to make a direct transition into a raking crown from a horizontal crown. The advantage is that there are no transition pieces or corner blocks. The transition is just as natural as an outside corner. If you were in my area I would just make the custom crown for you, but you're too far away. Most standard crown profiles can be made with a router and table saw in a few passes. I just had a raking set of crown molding knives made for $65 each to match 4:12, 6:12, and 8:12 ceilings/gables. Consequently I'm the only guy around here who makes that transition the "correct" way.

If you (or anyone else) are interested in trying it yourself then let me know and I'll take the time to explain it. Otherwise, it is just too confusing to explain how right here.

[Ben Abate]

Brett,

That is very interesting, my budddy was asking me about coping the one piece to fit into the other and I was explaining to him that one piece would have to be stretched in order for that to happpen. I coped one piece to show him the results of coping when a slope is involved. So you just reinforced what I thought about that.

I'm a bit interested in what you are saying. Where does the 2.5:12 pitch come from. I understand the 12 pitch

I know I was never aware of making two profiles for this to work. That's interesting.

thank you for the reply
Ben

[Peter Quinn]

You need to have a custom profile milled for the angled (raking) crown. It looks very similar to the profile on the horizontal crown but will appear to be more elongated.


Arrgh, I believe Bret is dead on this one. We have had some "pediments" in the shop going on two years now that are part of a historical restoration. They have a crown that comes down the rake and transitions into the flat. Two different crowns made with two different knives, the rake taken from the horizontal. You can't cope the crown that follow the rake directly into the one that follows the horizontal line using the same molding. It really does look better when the proper crown is made for the rake, but don't ask me how to draw it. Beyond my pay grade. And getting knives made for a limited run and crown run with those knives, well, not the cheapest proposition.

The issue we are having is that the client picked one crown to go atop the windows in the structure, carried the same crown to the pediments, but doesn't like the spring angle of the corresponding crown on the pediment's rakes. Ever try to push a mule up a hill?

[David DeCristoforo]

" It looks very similar to the profile on the horizontal crown but will appear to be more elongated."

"...the client...doesn't like the spring angle of the corresponding crown..."

And again IMMHO, I have to agree with Peter's client. The alteration of the profile is obvious and does not look "right". In fact, I think crown looks odd on a rake to begin with.

[Chris Padilla]

You need to have a custom profile milled for the angled (raking) crown.

Oh, this screams for pics, Brett!!

[David DeCristoforo]

" It looks very similar to the profile on the horizontal crown but will appear to be more elongated."

The "other problem" is that the distortion of the profile will become more radical as the pitch of the rake increases. On a mild rake like a 4/12 pitch it will not be as noticeable as it would be on an 8/12 pitch.

[Brett Nelson]

" It looks very similar to the profile on the horizontal crown but will appear to be more elongated."

The "other problem" is that the distortion of the profile will become more radical as the pitch of the rake increases. On a mild rake like a 4/12 pitch it will not be as noticeable as it would be on an 8/12 pitch.


Well.... I agree with this comment but then disagree somewhat with the sentiment of your previous post. It goes without saying that the more radical the pitch change, the more extreme the alteration of the moulding profile. Indeed, a limit is reached at about 12:12 pitch.

I design high-end homes, and my specialty and preference is what we would now call neo-classical, deriving the style from Greek/Roman precedent. As a singular application, like a simple one-piece crown on a bare wall, a close study of the spring angle will look odd. When kept in full context, it is the only way that it really looks appropriate.

I do take the time to explain to my clients why things were done the way they were in the first place. Usually we've changed it for one of two reasons. Either it is cheaper to do it an alternative way. Or modern building practices now allow what was once an engineering marvel that defied the laws of physics. Generally speaking, if something appears to defy natural laws, then it probably looks odd to the viewer also. But I'm not here to say what is right or wrong, but rather to learn from guys like you David. :p

[Brett Nelson]

Ben,

The 2.5 in 12 pitch comes from the fact that you said you had a 12* pitch. Just a little trigonometry and you'll see that your rise is about 2.5" in a 12" run.

If you are really interested, I'd be happy to explain further about the raking crown. But it is one of those things that people have a hard time visualizing, so I would need to post pictures detailing what I am talking about.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...people have a hard time visualizing..."

Actually, it's pretty easy to visualize if you imagine a long narrow rectangle that you collapse into a parallelogram.

[Brett Nelson]

Peter,

If you'd like to learn how to determine the adjustments to the crown profile, it isn't really all that hard. Basic drafting techniques really.

In regards to your client and their door pediment... send them over to Rome and tell them that every historic building that has a pediment like that is done with a different rake profile. Then ask if they like the way those ones look.

[Brett Nelson]

Chris,

Are you wanting pictures of work that I've done, or just pictures demonstrating the concept? Not sure that I have any of my work right off hand.

[Brett Nelson]

"...people have a hard time visualizing..."

Actually, it's pretty easy to visualize if you imagine a long narrow rectangle that you collapse into a parallelogram.

Great way to describe it. That helps.

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,

Are you wanting pictures of work that I've done, or just pictures demonstrating the concept? Not sure that I have any of my work right off hand.

Lots of us are visual folks...post anything you think would help us visualize things better.

[Brett Nelson]

Read pages 84-85 from this link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lovAS1e2pWMC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=raking+cyma&source=bl&ots=ixEtSNDgJg&sig=d24Z6lfMAlBa0LlRYjK9mkR1-eg&hl=en&ei=qUWhS_PQLI2YtgfVv-DyBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=raking%20cyma&f=false

I've got this book and many from the recommended reading list in the back of it. Very good read for anyone interested in historic architectural detail.

[Joseph Tarantino]

ben...is this what you were talking about (see first 2 pics below) in the opening post? i'm assuming the problem was getting the rake crown to meet the regular, horizontal top-of-the-wall crown molding as shown in the corners (where the ceiling meets the wall) portions of pics 1 and 2 below. pic 3 below is the ceiling/wall detail of the corner shown in pic 1. pic 4 below is the ceiling/wall detail of the corner shown in pic 2. looking at pic 4, the one with the motion detector just below the subject joint, is this the kind of joint that was being attempted?

[Ben Abate]

Joseph,

Yes, that seems to be the angle or close to it. It seems that you got it to work just fine. I don't see any blocks in the corners there. Can you enlighten me on the procedure? As I mentioned in the first post, I had it pretty close but I couldn't get it to close up. I could get it to close but the piece on the wall was running up hill if that makes sense to you. Or I found that it seemed that when both lands were in position one piece would be ahead of the other.

thanks Joseph

[Joseph Tarantino]

so this is the type of joint that was referred to in the opening thread. if you can post a pic of the problem joint, or perhaps a pic of the joint in it's "this is as close as i can get it" condition, i'd be happy to see if, perhaps, i can lend some thing constructive to the discussion. but a pic will help isolate where an adjustment would need to be made.

[Ben Abate]

Joseph,

I'm not at his place obviously but I might be in a day or two. I relayed your message to him plus another PM that I got about this and how some of you over came the problem. I'm going to see if he is available for me to come over to his house and we can give it a try in the actual room.

I'm overwhelmed with the response this thread has gotton. I guess there are a few of us out there with these crown problems.

I appreciate all the replies

Ben

[Joseph Tarantino]

ben...i'll keep an eye out for your next posting. i just noticed that the transition crown pictured in posting #5 was actually put forth by someone who wrote an article about this?

[Mike Henderson]

Firstly, I applaud Gary Katz and Joe Fusco for their alternative way of joining a horizontal crown to a raking crown. This post is not intended to bag on that method at all. When I say "correct", it is not to sound condescending, but is the opinion of the architectural design world based on a historical greek/roman standard.

This probably isn't the answer you want, but there is a "correct" way to make that transition. You need to have a custom profile milled for the angled (raking) crown. It looks very similar to the profile on the horizontal crown but will appear to be more elongated. IOW, if you're using a 4.5" crown, then the raking crown would need to have the same profile but will be "stretched" out to about 4 7/8" and instead of 45* backcuts, you'll need a 41* top backcut and a 49* bottom backcut, because the projection of the raking crown must stay the same, while the height of the raking crown increases. This elongation will be greater as the rake becomes steeper, but you are working on a 2.5:12 pitch.

This is the only way to make a direct transition into a raking crown from a horizontal crown. The advantage is that there are no transition pieces or corner blocks. The transition is just as natural as an outside corner. If you were in my area I would just make the custom crown for you, but you're too far away. Most standard crown profiles can be made with a router and table saw in a few passes. I just had a raking set of crown molding knives made for $65 each to match 4:12, 6:12, and 8:12 ceilings/gables. Consequently I'm the only guy around here who makes that transition the "correct" way.

If you (or anyone else) are interested in trying it yourself then let me know and I'll take the time to explain it. Otherwise, it is just too confusing to explain how right here.
I've been thinking about this since this message was posted. Here's my concerns - see the pictures.

The first picture shows a piece of crown molding running upward at an angle. It starts from a piece of horizontal crown, and terminates at another piece of horizontal crown.

Now look at the second picture, which shows the junction of the lower horizontal crown and the upward sloping crown. It's obvious that if the upward sloping crown was continued to the horizontal piece, it would extend below the horizontal piece. The small triangle piece resolves this problem, while maintaining the same spring angle on both pieces.

To match the upward sloping piece to the horizontal piece, it seems that the upward sloping piece would have to be less wide than the horizontal piece, if the same spring angle was used in both pieces.

Now, look at the third picture which shows the junction of the upward sloping piece with the horizontal piece at the top. It's obvious that if the upward piece was continued to the horizontal piece, it would not be wide enough to mate with the horizontal piece, if the same spring angle is used. Again, the triangle piece resolves this conflict.

Sorry for the poor pictures, but I think you can see the crown pieces well enough.

Mike

[Peter Quinn]

Peter,

If you'd like to learn how to determine the adjustments to the crown profile, it isn't really all that hard. Basic drafting techniques really.

In regards to your client and their door pediment... send them over to Rome and tell them that every historic building that has a pediment like that is done with a different rake profile. Then ask if they like the way those ones look.

Luckily the client is not mine to deal with, I'm just the next mechanic that gets to take a shot at adjusting this pediment. The problem is not the rake's crown being stretched and distorted. The problem is the pediments were part of the building originally. One was left in tact, less or more. Windows were replaced, crown was placed over the windows, which did not match the pediments, which was no problem as they are separated by some distance visually. Most of these pediments were shot due to age, they were completely rebuilt by us using what was left of the originals as models, but the window crown was used for the horizontals. And from this comes the rake crown. The client does not line the "Spring angle" of the raked crown, and wishes to use the original less sprung more subtile "rake" crown on the rakes, but the retain the window crown on the horizontal runs. Two different crowns, and the rake needs to be coped into the other. She can't understand why crown A, a basic 38/52 5 3/8" crown, can't be coped into a rake taken from the original crown. She also fails to understand I'm sure why oranges can't be bananas.

I have seen a method in Modern Practical Joinery, for drawing the rake crowns, but I'm not versed enough in that to explain it to others at all.

[Doug Carpenter]

I'm with David, I have never liked the idea of crown on a rake in a room. I have talked every customer that ever wanted it out of doing it. It simply doesn't go. A pediment is entirely different thing.

No offense.

[Brian J McMillan]

Raking a molding used to be pretty common in the days of ornamental plastering. I have done it but that was years ago . Rather than try to explain the procedure for getting the profiles to work I am posting some scans from my 110 year old copy of Millar's Plastering Plain and Decorative. I hope they help.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm with David, I have never liked the idea of crown on a rake in a room. I have talked every customer that ever wanted it out of doing it. It simply doesn't go. A pediment is entirely different thing.

No offense.
Modern homes have complex ceiling lines. Unless you're going to limit yourself to flat ceilings, you have to deal with crown on a slant. See the pictures for an example of a fairly simple complex ceiling which is pretty common in a modern style home.

If the customer wants crown in a room like this, you have to figure out how to do it. It'd be pretty tough to talk every potential customer out of installing crown in such a room, and you'd be giving up good business if you did talk them out of it.

Mike

[Several people have posted and said they don't think crown looks good in a modern home because of the mix of styles. Personally, I like it in a modern home if it's done tastefully. Crown is just a decoration which I consider to be universal - it can fit into almost any style if done with care and good taste - it doesn't belong only to early American or classical style homes.]

[Doug Carpenter]

I understand that new home have complex ceilings. I ceretainly wouldn't fight a customer to the death over it or anything. In most cases people hire me because the like the work I do and they value my insight. I'm no student of architecture but it just doesn't look right to me.

A home with lot of vaulted ceilings doesn't say "classic" trim to me. The talk of pediments only reinforces my point. There is a big difference between the exterior of roman buildings and the inside of a family room built in the 90's.

To me it's like putting victorian furniture in an atomic ranch. I just think there is something to be said in keeping consistant with the vintage of the home, so to speak.

I realize that there are many homes that are a good mix of styles and one could get away with it. I mean no disrespect.

I'm already there making money there is no need to sell them something they don't need. That being said I have just not run into the customer that absolutely insisted. The day I do will be the day I install crown on a rake.:)

[Brett Nelson]

I've been thinking about this since this message was posted. Here's my concerns - see the pictures.

The first picture shows a piece of crown molding running upward at an angle. It starts from a piece of horizontal crown, and terminates at another piece of horizontal crown.

Now look at the second picture, which shows the junction of the lower horizontal crown and the upward sloping crown. It's obvious that if the upward sloping crown was continued to the horizontal piece, it would extend below the horizontal piece. The small triangle piece resolves this problem, while maintaining the same spring angle on both pieces.

To match the upward sloping piece to the horizontal piece, it seems that the upward sloping piece would have to be less wide than the horizontal piece, if the same spring angle was used in both pieces.

Now, look at the third picture which shows the junction of the upward sloping piece with the horizontal piece at the top. It's obvious that if the upward piece was continued to the horizontal piece, it would not be wide enough to mate with the horizontal piece, if the same spring angle is used. Again, the triangle piece resolves this conflict.

Sorry for the poor pictures, but I think you can see the crown pieces well enough.

Mike

Yes, the message you posted shows very well the alternative methods demonstrated by Gary Katz, Joe Fusco, and others. You are correct in that the spring angle cannot be maintained without a transition piece. My post was simply pointing out that the transition pieces and corner blocks are alternative methods to the traditional Greek/Roman method. Some call them cheats in the world of architectural design as they are usually utilized when budget restrictions prevent the usage of the traditional method. Again, I'm not here to say which is right or wrong as this is simply a matter of aesthetics, and each person can do it however they like. I just wanted to make sure that the traditional (and still currently preferred) method of doing this is by creating an elongated matching profile for the raking cyma.

I should probably take a moment to explain a little bit further as to why this is still the preferred method when budget allows.



The transition piece suggests to the eye that the ceiling runs horizontal before climbing. But the ceiling does not run horizontally at all before climbing, so it draws the viewer's attention to the transition piece because it is telling your brain conflicting information. This is not a good thing in architectural design. Details like this should not stand out as they detract from the whole. Transitions should be flowing and seamless not drawing attention away from the intended embellishment.
This is probably the biggest issue with the "alternative" methods. They are very limited in when they can be used. A previous poster already mentioned the door pediment with the raking cyma and split fillet. In this case a corner block or transition piece looks very odd. The door pediment is a historic detail. Proportion and details were well thought out and then used repeatedly. Think of it this way... You build a traditional red brick neo-classical home with white pillars on the front. But instead of using the regular Doric or Tuscan round columns that taper along the upper 2/3 of the shaft, you decide to do them differently. You can't figure out how to make that nice appealing taper, so instead you decrease the diameter abruptly by 1" for every foot in height giving you a sort of stepped cone appearance. Those columns are really gonna look strange on that house.

[Brett Nelson]

A home with lot of vaulted ceilings doesn't say "classic" trim to me. The talk of pediments only reinforces my point. There is a big difference between the exterior of roman buildings and the inside of a family room built in the 90's.

To me it's like putting victorian furniture in an atomic ranch. I just think there is something to be said in keeping consistant with the vintage of the home, so to speak.


But why even build a room if you can't put crown in it. LOL Great points.

[bill mullin]

I understand that new home have complex ceilings. I ceretainly wouldn't fight a customer to the death over it or anything. In most cases people hire me because the like the work I do and they value my insight. I'm no student of architecture but it just doesn't look right to me.

A home with lot of vaulted ceilings doesn't say "classic" trim to me. The talk of pediments only reinforces my point. There is a big difference between the exterior of roman buildings and the inside of a family room built in the 90's.

To me it's like putting victorian furniture in an atomic ranch. I just think there is something to be said in keeping consistant with the vintage of the home, so to speak.

I realize that there are many homes that are a good mix of styles and one could get away with it. I mean no disrespect.

I'm already there making money there is no need to sell them something they don't need. That being said I have just not run into the customer that absolutely insisted. The day I do will be the day I install crown on a rake.:)
I've had pretty much the same experience as you. Have had very few ask, and talked 'em all out of it. It just don't look right.:D