Satin brush/wipe finish over gel stain

[Mike D Harris]

Hi,

I built an african mahogany entertainment center, and I've been struggling for over a week with finishing options. I finally put on a 1# cut of shellac as a sealer before staining/dying, but after my final tests didn't turn out I switched to a gel stain. I'm happy with the color and now need a top coat. Since the shellac and gel stain have closed the pores, I assume penetrating oils are out.

What would you recommend for a satin finish that can be easily wiped or brushed? Spraying something this shape is beyond my skill level.

After 10 hours of research Waterlox Original seems a good option, but I'd rather not use something where I have to buy two more products (the satin is only for the finish coat apparently). I've already wasted well over $100 on dyes, tints and stains that I couldn't get to work plus probably the same amount in gas driving to WoodCraft.

I appreciate any suggestions.

[Sam Layton]

Hi Mike,

Welcome to the Creek. I am not a finishing expert by all means. That being said, I like General Finishes, Arm-R-Seal. It is a wipe on finish and come in gloss or satin. I use a couple of coats of gloss, and finish with a couple coats of satin. Or, you can just use the satin. It is make to wipe on.

Good luck, Sam

[Dennis Lopeman]

I've also been heads down in research on sort of this subject for my Kitchen Cabinets.

I also have a thread a JUST started asking for input/sign off!

So... If I were to use what I've learned to help you I would bullet:

1) do you have a GOOD brush? There are a few suggestions on which ones to use. Your objective is to minimize brush lines in the finish

2) The first item is the shellac: Sealer of choice would probably be Zinssers Seal Coat. It's Dewaxed. lightly sand after that to get the grains that pop up. 400grit.

2.5) I don't know which step is staining. My intuition says 1st, before the Seal Coat.

3) Water Based (WB) coat(s) - this one has changed names a lot but is known as Target Coatings Oxford/ULS/EM9000 (the em9000 is for brushing I think) EM6000 is for spraying... and I believe is now called EM1000... I think the company just wants to confuse people! LOL

Water Based is safe and will not have that odor for but a couple days at most. And you can spray indoors!

the spraying is actually easier. I did it for the FIRST time last week on an entertainment center that I am ALSO doing! Funny. Mere MINUTES of work. Most of my time was spent getting familiar with my cheapo Harbor Frieght spray gun! (HVLP hooked to my compressor) - I actually used a Polyurathane with thinner added... I have no idea on the viscosity or any such nonsence!! LOL it's not nonsense - I just don't know how. I thinned it to where it seemed OK and shot away! It's look good - but dull... I figure that's cuz it's just the first layer. But it WAS wicked fast... perfect for an entertainment center project, huh!?

[Dennis Lopeman]

I may have the sandpaper GRITs wrong...

I'm seeing some people say 220, 320 now... worth some more research.

[Prashun Patel]

Mike, it's a common misconception that you need 2 Waterlox products. You don't. You can just use the satin product. You can either brush or wipe it (I don't believe you need to thin it any more if you want to wipe it, but check).

Let the gel stain dry well, or else you risk lifting it out with the varnish.

[Mike D Harris]

Thanks for the tips. I see somebody else on another thread is having the same problem I had with the stain/dye seeping out of the grain, but with a different wood. Maybe somebody can diagnose this problem so I won't live in fear of african mahogany. In many of my tests the stain puddled on the surface after about 20-30 minutes. I tried Minwax oil stains, Solar Lux NGR dyes, and TransTint diluted in water. Most attempts on raw wood looked blotchier than the first picture. I think this one was with a 1# shellac seal coat which improved it quite a bit. You can tell I didn't properly sand these tests, but the sanded tests came out the same.
http://mikeharris.homeip.net/tests.jpg
This picture is of a finer grained board which by the color was probably SolarLux thinned with its reducer.
http://mikeharris.homeip.net/test2.jpg

[Prashun Patel]

Porous woods (mahogany, oak) will bleed oil stains or soft oil finishes (like Danish Oil) for a while. The trick is to keep watching the piece over a several hour period and keep wiping up the droplets.

I've had an oak table accept a couple coats of Danish Oil in my basement good and proper. Then when I moved it up to my sunroom where the temp got to about 80 deg, it started bleeding.

I have not had this problem with aniline dye (transtint). I diluted mine in water and sponged down an African Mahogany desk. Dried bone dry in a few minutes. An NGR dye in alcohol or a glycol ether should dry even faster. Are you sure you got the same probs with DYE?

If you want a dark color and want to use a pigment stain, then the only way is to soak it, let it penetrate, then wipe it all off, then keep coming back to wipe

[Mark Patoka]

Mike,
I made some cherry nightstands that were stained with gel stain and then I used Arm-R-Seal straight out of the can for a topcoat with no problems. Just wiped it on and used about 4-5 coats before it started looking even. It was either gloss or semi-gloss so it was harder to get an even look where the satin should be more forgiving.

[Conrad Fiore]

Mike,
On your dyed samples, did you put any finish coats over the dye?

[Mike D Harris]

I did put lacquer over the dye. It looked great on the sprayed attempts, but still blotchy on the wiped attempts. Unfortunately my cheap spray gun was spitting too much, so I gave up trying to spray. I can see how that is the way to go if you have the equipment and technique.

[Henry Ambrose]

Stop mixing finishes, start waiting for each coat to dry well and you will get better results.

You can tint the first coat only of Waterlox using most oil based stains. Then add coats until you have the build you want. Read the label and look at their website. You can get a lot or little of color change by this method. It'll be even and deep into the wood. Then build more of the same finish but without stain until you're done.

http://www.waterlox.com/

"Adding stain to your first coat of Waterlox Original finishes. You can add up to 1 quart of "old-fashioned" oil-based stain (containing no additives such as urethane), tint, or dye to 1 gallon of Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish. This should be done with your first coat of Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish."

"Staining before finishing with Waterlox Original finishes. You may stain the floor with any type of stain. Be sure to follow the manufacturer's directions for cure time or wait 72 hours, whichever is longer, before applying coats of Waterlox Tung Oil Finishes."