New Bad Axe Saws

[Dave Schwarzkopf]

Just wanted to pass along that Mark Harrell, the proprietor of Bad Axe Toolworks has developed a few new saws, (and a few new ways of pimping them out). I've already purchased rip and xcut tenon saws from him, and can swear by them, (I've LV, LN, and Grammercy options, I reach for the Bad Axe every time).

Hope I'm not stepping on his toes by kicking this out on the forum. They're not listed on his website badaxetoolworks.com yet, but you can always kick him an email: mark@badaxetoolworks.com

This is an unsolicited thread from a very satisfied customer, (and fellow veteran)



12" Carcase saw: 12 ppi rip or 13/14 ppi x-cut
14" Sash Saw:11/12 ppi rip or 12/13 ppi x-cut

[Dave Schwarzkopf]

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac63/ouchifellagain/BadAxe.jpg?t=1268703466file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Owner/Desktop/New%20Folder/BadAxe.jpg

[Rick Erickson]

Oh, now you did it. You had to post this didn't you. I was trying to forget about his website. I own his 16" xcut and 18" rip and love them. I recently took a sawing class at our local Woodcraft with Christopher Schwarz and used these saws (mainly the 16") for making a sawbench (the class project). Since that class I've been a cutting machine with these saws. I'm working on a second saw bench and cutting all of the tenons with the saws. They get better with use - Very comfortable grip, super sharp, great balance and of course they look great. Between these and my Cosman dovetail saws they are a perfect set. Keeping my eye out for his 26" hand saw.

[Dave Schwarzkopf]

Mark's working on a dovetail saw project with a possible release this summer. He's looking for users two cents on the subject on his facebook page

I've never tried the Cosman, but I'd be curious to try it next to Mark's!

Must've been a great class working alongside The Schwarz!

[Rick Erickson]

It sure was - that dude has a lot in his head (not a bad craftsman either:)). He is very laid back and fun to work with. He travels with a bunch of his tools so it was fun to see and touch a lot of the tools you read in his blogs. It took everything in me not to steal his 16 1/2 Langdon Mitre box (just kidding Chris - sort of).

Re. the Cosman saws - they are the best IMO. I've owned or tried a few others (LN, Grammercy, LV) and I just like Rob's saws sooo much more. I would love to try Marks when it comes out but I can't imagine it replacing my Cosman saws. I may have to get his 14" sash.

[Gary Herrmann]

Mark does very fine work. I hope he does well with his new offerings.

[Mike Zilis]

Coincidentally, I just ordered a 16" X-Cut saw from Mark yesterday. He and I exchanged a few emails tonight about it. I'm really excited to be getting one of his tools.

-Mike

[Rick Erickson]

Yeah, I just got an email from a friend of mine who just ordered a 16" as well. I think Mark is getting all he can handle. Good for him. You will love the saw. Mine were a bit grabby at first (give it about 20 or 30 practice cuts). Now they smoke through the wood.

My 12-year old (who has never used a hand saw in his life) trimmed out our entire kitchen cabinet kick plates with some oak trim using my 16" saw and a bench hook. All I did was take the measurements and marked the line. He is hooked on the saw.

[David Gendron]

Great saws, great guy! I hav two large tenon saws xc and rip, and love them, they are the go to saws, and I have a few great saws to choose from!!

[Rick Erickson]

I don't know how he keeps up. Everywhere I turn someone has one of his saws.

[george wilson]

If it's grabby,the angle of the front of the teeth needs to be slanted a bit more back. A new saw shouldn't be grabby.

If anyone has ever tried those little X-acto looking "razor saws" you find in hobby shops,they grab like crazy. Hardly usable at all,especially in balsa wood,of all things!!! Which they were primarily made for!! Their teeth are actually slanted quite backwards on their fronts!! I'm not implying that the Bad Axe teeth are like that at all. It's just an extreme example of how grabby a saw can get.

[Rick Erickson]

Na - I think it was just knocking off the initial burrs on the teeth after sharpening (or something like that - I'm not a sharpening guy). It didn't a whole lot of test cuts and now they are superb surgical instruments :D. My other saws (both Cosman and LN were the same way).

[Dave Schwarzkopf]

http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Breaking+In+The+Carcase+Saws.aspx

[Rick Erickson]

Ah - very cool indeed.

[David Gendron]

IMO, Mark is probably one of the best saw sharpener we have today! I found his saws realy smooth cutting right out of the box! Not like LN fo exemple!

[george wilson]

LN's are not good out of the box? I haven't used either since I make my own saws.

[David Gendron]

I didn't say they were not good out of the box, I said compare to my Bad Axe saws, they were graby out of the box!

[Jonathan McCullough]

This is for me a very interesting observation. I've been sharpening saws for a little while now, call me a tyro, but coming immediately off the saw file, all my saws are grabby. I did a 10-point D-8 hand saw a little while ago, and the first thing I noticed was that when cutting through the wood, it practically squeaked, and on the cutting stroke, it practically wanted to stop. I put some wax on it, but it was the teeth. Now, with some use, perhaps some douglas fir pitch, and natural oxidation from exposure to the air, it cuts quite nicely. I did a 6 point rip saw and had the same experience. Are you sure that a freshly-sharpened saw isn't going to grab?

[Lowell Smith]

This is for me a very interesting observation. I've been sharpening saws for a little while now, call me a tyro, but coming immediately off the saw file, all my saws are grabby.

If the burr left by the file is the cause and would 'stoning' the saw blade
after filing solve the problem?

[Jonathan McCullough]

I've been giving freshly-filed saws a quick pass on either side, then testing it to see if it wanders to one side or the other. If it's not pulling, fine, leave be. But if it is, then I give the side it's pulling to a couple of more gentle passes and test again.

Grabby saws are not really a problem-- I'm just noting that for the first few 2 x 4 tests the freshly sharpened saws are grabby, then they tone down. I was really more wondering if what George was saying is that a new saw should already be "broken in" or what-have-you. I'm also wondering if the slight oxidation buildup you'd normally get 2-3 weeks after sharpening a saw might tame it down a little. Just a thought. Maybe one of the Wenzloffs could chime in. [Edit: or the Bad Axe fellow]

[george wilson]

We sharpened our saws for everyone in the Historic Area for years after we made them. We found that some guys messed up the teeth,so insisted in sharpening them ourselves. If there is a problem with saws being"grabby",it is not correct. The tooth angle needs to be adjusted most likely.

None of our freshly sharpened saws were grabby. We tried each one out before returning it. We sharpened saws hundreds of times over the many years I was there. You should listen to my advice. The front edge of the teeth needs to be tilted more FORWARD in such a way as to RESIST cutting if your saws are grabby.

Are any of you finding old texts on sharpening saws,with illustrations to go by?

[Jim Koepke]

Like Jonathan, my saws receive a few swipes with a stone to knock the burrs then tested for tracking.

They do not seem grabby after when they are finished.

It may just be the different things that are done and ways people test their saws after sharpening.

jim

[Matt Benton]

George, are you saying that it is not possible to put a burr on the side of a saw tooth with a file, or that any burr put on the side of a saw tooth is not significant enough to contribute to a "grabby" effect?

Maybe those experiencing this don't have your sharpening expertise, and therefore are leaving burrs that are contributing to the problem...

[Jim Koepke]

George, are you saying that it is not possible to put a burr on the side of a saw tooth with a file, or that any burr put on the side of a saw tooth is not significant enough to contribute to a "grabby" effect?

Maybe those experiencing this don't have your sharpening expertise, and therefore are leaving burrs that are contributing to the problem...

George will need to provide his own answer to this, but here is mine.

A burr is caused when filing but can be minimized by the direction of filing.

Any burrs that are formed on the teeth can be removed by the use of a stone (or stones) on the saw after filing.

The extent of work required to do this may be more than some want to do or pay to have done. If you were paying me by the hour, it would be quite understandable that you only want a sharp saw that tracks straight and are willing to let the remaining burrs come off in use.

jim

[Jonathan McCullough]

If there is a problem with saws being"grabby",it is not correct. The tooth angle needs to be adjusted most likely.

None of our freshly sharpened saws were grabby. We tried each one out before returning it. We sharpened saws hundreds of times over the many years I was there. You should listen to my advice. The front edge of the teeth needs to be tilted more FORWARD in such a way as to RESIST cutting if your saws are grabby.

Are any of you finding old texts on sharpening saws,with illustrations to go by?

George, I get the feeling that we're talking past each other here. Before sharpening, the saws are dull. After sharpening, they're so sharp they glow in the dark.

Of course I've read everything available about sharpening. The tooth geometry is standard. For saws that just need a touch up, I follow the previous rake and fleam. None of these have been extraordinary -- about fifteen to twenty five degrees for either. When a saw is in bad shape, I put twenty degrees of rake and fifteen degrees of fleam. I never do sloped gullets. It's too finicky.

Again, after a little use, they are very sharp and very good. At first though, as in Schwarz's article referenced above, they are a bit grabby right off the file. They will cut right through your skin. Why is that not to be expected?

[george wilson]

I can't be there to look at your saws,guys. We filed them,no stoning off burrs,and made sure they sawed o.k. before returning them to the shops. No grabbing. I guess you have to do whatever works for you.

[Jim Koepke]

George, I get the feeling that we're talking past each other here. Before sharpening, the saws are dull. After sharpening, they're so sharp they glow in the dark.

[snip]

Again, after a little use, they are very sharp and very good. At first though, as in Schwarz's article referenced above, they are a bit grabby right off the file. They will cut right through your skin. Why is that not to be expected?

You may actually be talking past each other.

If the tooth is filed (what in my consideration, since I am not aware of anyone else considering it this) "inside out" it can have a burr on the outside and even the top of the tooth. This will be grabby.

If a tooth is filed from the "outside in," then any burr will be behind the preceding tooth and not be as likely to grab.

Almost everything I have read on saw sharpening indicates the sharpening should be done "inside out" then stoned. I think if one is careful and working from the "outside in" a burr that influences the cut can be avoided.

That said, for some, a super sharp saw may seem grabby. I find that if too much pressure is put on even a dull saw it will grab in the start of the cut. When my cuts are started with no pressure on even a sharp saw, they tend to glide on the surface like a fine file until the cut is made and finally finished.

It may all be in the perception of how one is using their saw.

jim